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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Refrigerator Sourdough
Just came across a rather novel (to me) idea -- starting a starter in
the refrigerator. This is as opposed to starting it at room temperature, and only once it is solidly established and stable putting it in the refrigerator for storage purposes. The dead-simple process is described he http://www.parc.com/apte/bread.shtml It makes some sense -- you would of course end up with organisms that are adapted to refrigerator temperatures, so there would be no concerns about your starter culture getting out of whack from being stored in the refrigerator. Presumably, organisms which are happy enough to ferment slowly at refrigerator temperatures would not be offended by being asked to leaven bread at room temperature, though they might not be quite as speedy at it as organisms adapted to higher temperatures. He does both bulk fermentation and final proof in the fridge, though, with the loaf going in the oven cold. (Why not, if your starter is so adapted?) So it all makes sense, if it actually works. Has anybody tried this? Any thoughts? I would personally be pretty happy to keep my starter in the fridge all the time and feed less often. (Though the author of the above claims that his barm will double in 24 hours even in the fridge! I wonder if that means he has to feed it daily? The page is scarce on such details.) It would, at any rate, eliminate tedious adjustments to recipes and timings required by seasonal variations in room temperature. I suspect you end up with a yeast-heavy culture, since AFAIK there are more cold-tolerant yeast than there are cold-tolerant LAB. That would be bad news for people who want their sourdough to produce sour bread, but good news for those looking for more mild flavors. I think a test is in order. I'm off to put a fresh rye paste in the fridge and see what happens. -- Randall |
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Refrigerator Sourdough
Good luck! http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#061 http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#066 And no - I am not buying another larger fridge to ferment my bread stuff in there which takes 24 hours to rise. Not even trying in my current fridges. "Matadero Creek Bakery" - hmmm..... try googling it. The molds growing in my fridge are black, grey or pink. Sam Randall Nortman wrote: > Just came across a rather novel (to me) idea -- starting a starter in > the refrigerator. This is as opposed to starting it at room > temperature, and only once it is solidly established and stable > putting it in the refrigerator for storage purposes. The dead-simple > process is described he > > http://www.parc.com/apte/bread.shtml > > .... |
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Refrigerator Sourdough
On 2007-09-20, Sam > wrote:
> > Good luck! > > http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#061 > http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#066 I think the idea is you would get different strains. The strains tested there were from room-temperature starters. Anyway, I have seen dough rise in my <5C refrigerator before. Commercial yeast can certainly do it, slowly. > "Matadero Creek Bakery" - hmmm..... try googling it. Yeah, that's a little odd, but I know[1] this guy from the home brewing scene, which is how I stumbled upon his baking page. He seems to know his stuff when it comes to brewing. Whether or not he knows sourdough remains to be seen. It is an easy enough experiment to try, but I'm certainly not throwing out my room temperature starter any time soon. [1] "Know" in the sense of having seen posts from and references to him in Internetland. Never actually met or interacted with him. -- Randall |
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Refrigerator Sourdough
Randall Nortman wrote:
> [..] > I think the idea is you would get different strains. The strains > tested there were from room-temperature starters. Anyway, I have seen > dough rise in my <5C refrigerator before. Sure - me too. But have you considered how long it takes for the inner part of your dough to cool down? In particular if there are gas bubbles providing some kind of insulation from the outside cold and the critters creating some heat when working? Also - if there is some gas dissolved in the dough and it cools, the gas may get free, with the gluten getting stiffer on the outside when cooled holding gas better you may get good rises when doing that even if the critters are going to sleep slowly. You may get different strains - but which one's. Certainly not the regular SD critters making good bread and for sure not high performing with high germ counts. Around freezing, water based life goes to sleep and gets ready to change into hibernating forms to survive. There are the other kind of "starters" around, social sugar addicts with names like Henry or whatever, to be fed and shared. This whole project looks retarded (in a sense of great delay) - maybe one gets special taste out of it? I doubt it though that one can get anything out of this which cannot be gotten with room temperature environment and keeping a job. > Commercial yeast can > certainly do it, slowly. > > >> "Matadero Creek Bakery" - hmmm..... try googling it. >> > > Yeah, that's a little odd, but I know[1] this guy from the home > brewing scene, which is how I stumbled upon his baking page. He seems > to know his stuff when it comes to brewing. Yes - I looked briefly through the page: Not to forget a "Must have" item according to this fridge SD retarding page: IR thermometer. Should set you back --- maybe > $ 50? And - you can donate him a pH meter and he'll do the experimenting for you. Go for it! Sam |
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Refrigerator Sourdough
On 2007-09-21, Sam > wrote:
[...] > You may get different strains - but which one's. Certainly not the > regular SD critters making good bread and for sure not high performing > with high germ counts. [...] Only one way to know. This will cost me fridge space for one small jar, a couple hundred grams of rye, and a few minutes of attention in total. I'll report back in a couple of weeks one way or another. -- Randall |
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Refrigerator Sourdough
On Sep 20, 6:04 pm, Randall Nortman >
wrote: > I would personally be pretty happy to keep my starter > in the fridge all the time and feed less often... And what if you didn't have a "fridge" . The medieval bakers managed somehow... You could mix your storage starter really firm. Then it would go for 3 or 4 days at room temperature. Doesn't take much... a piece of hard dough the size of a walnut works for me. |
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Refrigerator Sourdough
"Randall Nortman" > wrote in message > [ ... ] > It makes some sense -- you would of course end up with organisms that > are adapted to refrigerator temperatures, so there would be no > concerns about your starter culture getting out of whack from being > stored in the refrigerator ... Most people store their starters in the fridge for the reason that microorganisms grow more slowly there, and do not need frequent feeding therefore. It has been frequently observed that dough will rise in the fridge, if for no other reason that it takes a while for it to cool down. But if you should succeed to get a cold-working fast-rising leavener, make sure you get a patent so you can sell it to the eskimos. After that, there is the problem of low-temperature baking, of general interest in a fuel-deficient world. -- Dicky |
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Refrigerator Sourdough
Will wrote:
> And what if you didn't have a "fridge" . The medieval bakers managed > somehow... > Bakers, by the nature of their business, tend to bake every day. Since bread was the staff of life in those days, a bake everyday was the order of the day. In some areas, housewives tended to bake for their families once a week - when they could use the communities oven. So, with the right to use the oven, the town's starter was passed from person to person. My experience is that starters are happier when they are used, as opposed to being refrigerated. Sadly, that doesn't really fit into most people's schedules Mike -- Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com part time baker ICQ 16241692 networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230 wordsmith Once seen on road signs all over the United States: These three Prevent most accidents Courtesy Caution Common sense Burma-Shave |
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Refrigerator Sourdough
> Good luck!
> > http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1...t1-4n.html#066 Thumbing through Hammelmann's book, I noted him paraphrasing Calvel that at regular fridge temps the yeasts in sourdoughs die off, this being unfavorable in thier opinion. Others--Reinhardt, Wing, et al.-- claim a slow down and even dormancy but make no claim to the yeast die off, nor to any negative consequences of retarding at those low temps. I don't have at my disposal any way to verify the yeast types and viabilities in the culture I use, but I do store it at those temps, as well as retard doughs similarly, both in bulk fermentation and in final form, in varying combination. And, though I'm generally satisfied with the outcomes, I'm curious to know the facts that might lead to greater planning and improvement of the bread. Perhaps off the main subject, seemingly there is another contradiction worth noting between Hammelmann and Wing. Hammelmann claims the temperatures at which starch swells and gels in rye is different than that of wheat, claiming the lower temps of this for rye allow the amylase enzymes to subsequently cause "starch attack." Whereas Wing claims that it is the enzymes in the rye that are not heat unstable like that of wheat. Any information that might lead to clarity on any of this? I'm going to Sam's page now to search for same, as well as information regarding his proofing box. -Erich |
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Refrigerator Sourdough
On Sep 21, 11:47 am, "
> wrote: > > Good luck! > > >http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1...samartha.net/S... > > Thumbing through Hammelmann's book, I noted him paraphrasing Calvel > that at regular fridge temps the yeasts in sourdoughs die off, this > being unfavorable in thier opinion. Others--Reinhardt, Wing, et al.-- > claim a slow down and even dormancy but make no claim to the yeast die > off, nor to any negative consequences of retarding at those low > temps. Correction. Hammelmann QUOTED Calvel to the effect that some of the microflora is destroyed at refridgeration temps, ruining the flavor of the bread. The statement regarding destruction of sourdough yeasts, however, was attributed another baker whose title was given as MASTER rather than PROFESSOR. But the question of fact remains. My apologies for the error. -Erich |
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Refrigerator Sourdough
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