Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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"Will" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Sep 4, 11:15 pm, "Thomas C." > wrote:
>
>> I used a scale to measure the flour, water, starter and salt. Although I
>> do
>> subject my dough to uncontrolled ambient temperature, but only if it's
>> not
>> above 75 F otherwise I'll use the oven and the viewing light. Eventually
>> I
>> may build and use a proofing box. I think one device I'd like is a pH
>> meter
>> for dough.

>
> Between Samartha's calculator, a simple flour/water/starter/salt
> materials plan and good scaling, I'd agree you're not thrashing
> about :-)...
>
> Dough handling is tricky business and most writers assume the issue
> away via mechanical mixing and kneading. Few of them detail the time-
> gluten relationship. Randall's 24 hour cycle is very much like mine. A
> little mixing, into the dough bucket and forget about it until the
> next day. Works wonders... even with very wet dough.
> The Stretch and Folds, especially the way that Mike presents it, are a
> hugely under-rated step in great bread. The gluten really needs to be
> organized, laminated if you will, to set up a good final structure,
> one that will react well to oven heat... not blow out, not spring
> lopsided, etc... A KA won't do that...
>
> The proof box is easy. You invert a Rubbermaid storage container over
> a heat pad. It's not necessary at this time of year, but in winter, is
> very helpful. And it's really helpful if you need to drive a final
> proof on schedule. You might ask Samartha about the pH equipment, he
> obviously has it but I don't think counting hydrogen ions is part of
> his regular routine these days. I also think you get into interesting
> conundrums once there. For example, a 4.2 pH in a 68% hydration dough
> is not the same number of free hydrogen units as 4.2 at 65% hydration.
> I am sure he could point you to appropriate literature (and I am
> equally sure it is written in German).


Ah. It sounded like I'd have to take a shop class to build one, but that is
simple enough for me.

pH meter isn't a necessity since I can rely on my tastebuds for the time
being.

>
> Good luck, keep posting.


-Thomas C.


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On 5 Sep 2007, at 20:37, Thomas C. wrote:

> Ah. It sounded like I'd have to take a shop class to build one,
> but that is
> simple enough for me.
>
> pH meter isn't a necessity since I can rely on my tastebuds for the
> time
> being.
>
>>
>> Good luck, keep posting.

>
> -Thomas C.



: -) Good man, don't get me wrong Thomas I think you should make the
bread you want as long as you enjoy it. If sour is what you want,
like I said, cool, not my taste, though I do make vinegar and you
can't get much more sour than that so I guess I get my sour fix from
other things.

Have fun,

Jim
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Will wrote:
> Dough handling is tricky business and most writers assume the issue
> away via mechanical mixing and kneading. Few of them detail the time-
> gluten relationship. Randall's 24 hour cycle is very much like mine. A
> little mixing, into the dough bucket and forget about it until the
> next day. Works wonders... even with very wet dough.
> The Stretch and Folds, especially the way that Mike presents it, are a
> hugely under-rated step in great bread. The gluten really needs to be
> organized, laminated if you will, to set up a good final structure,
> one that will react well to oven heat... not blow out, not spring
> lopsided, etc... A KA won't do that...
>
>

I'm reminded of that scene in "The Blues Brothers Movie" where Jake and
Elmo are trying to talk down Ray Charles on the price of a keyboard by
claiming that the action of the keyboard isn't very good. Ray sits down
and jams - the whole block is jumpin' - and then Rays says the keyboard
feels fine to him.

I've used my KA for over 20 years to make bread. It works just fine.

Every time I hear someone complaining about a KA, I find that either
they don't actually have a KA or they haven't actually read the KA's manual.

The KA is not a perfect machine. The variable speed motor is a serious
limitation as it is being asked to produce a lot of torque at low
speeds, which is hard for a variable speed motor to do. Professional
Hobart mixers use a single speed motor and a geared transmission. A
better answer, but not a very cost effective one for home use. This
leads to batch size limitations. KA is quite good about telling you how
much dough you cam make in a batch, and how many batches you can make in
a row.

As to quality of dough development, I have no complaints on that score.
They work well when someone is willing to take the time to learn how to
use the machine.

All that said, I do think that they are oversold. It is just as easy
for most people to make dough by hand as to use a machine. And there is
less to clean up when you don't use a machine.

If the dough climbs the hook, it is too wet for the KA. (The Hobarts
are less fussy in this regard.) Your choices are to add more flour,
increase the mixer's speed, scrape the dough down fairly often, or make
the bread by hand or in another machine which can handle a wider range
of dough hydration.

Adding more flour is the simplest answer, but it will change the texture
of the bread, which may or may not bother you.

Speeding up the mixer will tend to make it fly off the kneading hook so
it can continue to be kneaded. This is OK for wetter doughs, but not
good for the mixer with drier doughs.

Dick has several sourdough recipes on his web site that work just fine
with a KA. In short, a KA can develop dough just fine.

My own preference is to knead the dough on speed 2 for about 5 minutes.
I then let the dough rest for 5 minutes, which allows the flour to
absorb moisture. Then I knead for another 5 minutes on speed 2. Works
just fine. The dough improves through its two rises and makes very nice
bread.

A recurring theme among beginning bakers is a fear of handling sticky
dough. It's just flour, water, salt and a riser. It's not gonna kill
you. You can wash it off. Most of the recipes that tell you to knead
until the dough is smooth and no longer sticky are having you add much
too much flour. I like to see a dough that is still tacky and would
rather stick to itself than to you or the counter. But a dough that is
smooth, satiny and no longer sticky? It doesn't happen very often and
isn't all that good a goal.

Here's a yeasted bread recipe I used for many years with good results in
my Hobart. I am including it so people can practice with their KA's.

Title: Joy Of Cooking's Whole Grain Bread Plus


Whole Grain Bread Plus

This is a favorite recipe, modified slightly from THE JOY OF COOKING's
recipe,
mostly so that it would fit into the Kitchen-Aid K45-SS mixer, which can
handle no more than 7 cups of flour.

This is a very nice fine textured bread that even people who do not eat
whole wheat bread will enjoy.

As the authors of THE JOY OF COOKING say, "One of the best breads we know."

2 or 3 loaves for the full recipe, less for the Kitchen Aid version.


INGREDIENT LIST

1/4 CUP sugar, honey, or maple syrup
1 3/4 cups warm (120 degrees F.) water
1/4 cup melted butter
1 beaten egg
3 to 4 cups white flour, preferably unbleached all purpose,
3 to 4 cups whole wheat flour.
1 package Active dry yeast or Instant dry yeast
1 1/2 tsp salt

You may also want to add,
1 TBSP Soya Flour,
1 TBSP dry milk solids (powdered milk), and
1 tsp wheat germ

per cup of flour used.

INSTRUCTIONS
Put water, honey, egg and butter into the mixing bowl.
Add the salt and sugar.

Turn on the mixer and add:
2 cups white flour, prefferably unbleached all purpose,
and
2 cups whole wheat flour.

Add equal amounts of the two flours as needed, up to 3 cups more. The
dough should not be a puddle in the bottom of the mixer bowl, nor should
it climb the dough hook. The mixer should work the dough. If the dough
is a puddle on the bottom of the bowl, add a bit more flour 1/2 cup at
a time. If the dough is climbing the dough hook, add more flour, 1/4
cup at a time. If the dough becomes a solid mass the mixer can't
handle, you added too much flour and the only recourse is to add some
more water. I'd add it a tablespoon at a time.

Knead for 5 minutes, allow the dough to rest for 5 minutes, and then
knead for another 5 minutes. I use speeds 2 or 4 on my KA. This will
be a rather firm dough.

Place in a greased bowl, turn and cover and allow to rise in a warm,
draftless place until doubled in bulk, about an hour.

Punch the dough down, knead lightly, put the dough back into a greased
bowl, turn it, cover and again allow it to rise until doubled, about
another hour.

Punch the dough down, knead, form into loaves in loaf pans. Cover,
allow to rise until doubled, about another hour.

To bake, place in a cold oven set for 400 degrees F. After 15 minutes,
turn the oven down to 375 degrees F. and bake another 25 minutes.

For a better crust, you may put a pan of water in the bottom of the oven.

I have since modified this recipe to use sourdough, and again to use a
poolish. It's a good workhorse of a recipe.

Mike

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On Sep 5, 5:54 pm, Mike Avery > wrote:

> Every time I hear someone complaining about a KA, I find that either
> they don't actually have a KA or they haven't actually read the KA's manual.


Mike... I wasn't complaining about KAs, I said that the machine
doesn't laminate gluten like the S&F's. And I said that lamination was
important for structure. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

In my opinion... KA's dough hook does not develop gluten as well as a
simple, cool, bulk ferment. I do not deny the machines are very
useful. I have two of them and have read the manuals and even torn
them down for cleaning. I like them. They mill my flour, roll my
pasta, grind meat, mix things... I just don't use them for kneading.

> A recurring theme among beginning bakers is a fear of handling sticky
> dough.


So true. And a recurring solution is to let the dough rest and
hydrate. Also, it helps if it is well salted, as in 1.8 to 2 percent.
Properly salted dough is less sticky. Another useful procedure is to
amend your flour. Incorporating 8-10% white wheat whole grain flour
does wonders. It approximates the new "artisan", lower extraction
flour that King Arthur (and others) are promoting. Our all purpose
flours are too highly refined and that contributes to stickiness.


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In article . net>,
Espressopithecus (Java Man) >>
says...
> In article
> <mailman.18.1189043685.33515.rec.food.sourdough@ma il.otherwhen.com>,
> says...
> > Espressopithecus (Java Man) <Espressopithecus wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <mailman.17.1189032882.33515.rec.food.sourdough@ma il.otherwhen.com>,
> > >
says...
> > >
> > >> My own preference is to knead the dough on speed 2 for about 5 minutes.
> > >> I then let the dough rest for 5 minutes, which allows the flour to
> > >> absorb moisture. Then I knead for another 5 minutes on speed 2. Works
> > >> just fine. The dough improves through its two rises and makes very nice
> > >> bread.
> > >>
> > >>
> > > Mike, is this for sourdough or yeasted bread?
> > >

> > Either. And when I am kneading by hand, the same schedule works here
> > for reasonably sized batches of bread.
> >

> I'm ramping the starter up tonight to bake two loaves tomorrow. I'll
> try your "5 min at speed 2, rest for 5, and 5 more min at speed 2" and
> see how it goes. Thanks!
>

I tried the "5-5-5" (knead-rest-knead) with the KA this morning, and it
was an eye-opener. I'm working with a very seedy whole wheat
multigrain, so I never thought I'd see window pane. But your formula
really worked. After the first 5 minutes on speed 2, the dough was
smooth, round and a little sticky, but it cleaned the mixing bowl fully.
With 2 minutes left in the second kneading, thin spider-webs of dough
began sticking to the bowl. At the end of the second kneading, it had
many long strands of translucent dough sticking to the dough hook and
the bowl, and produced great window panes despite all the chunky bits.
I guess I've been under-kneading consistently.

Thanks again, Mike.

Java
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On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:02:51 GMT, Espressopithecus (Java
Man) >> wrote:

>I guess I've been under-kneading consistently.


Howdy,

I would suggest another way of thinking about the kneading
issue:

A number of books have been written that offer the "window
pane" as some sort of standard for the goal of "proper"
kneading, but, in reality there is much more to it.

When I want a very rustic "coarse" (that is, big irregular
holes in the crumb) loaf, I don't knead at all. Instead, I
just mix the ingredients to the point that I know there are
no pockets of dry flour. I then leave it, often for more
than 24 hours, in a cool place.

When I want a very fine crumb, for example when making what
the French call Pain de mie (it looks like Wonder bread, but
sure does not taste the same) I use a kneading approach very
similar to Mike's excellent suggestion.

Another thing you may have read is that it is somehow a
great success if a baker manages to get lots of "oven
spring." As you may know, that is the increase in loaf size
that sometimes happens during the bake.

The issue is similar in that for certain breads, an increase
in spring comes with a decrease in taste. Yet, in many
books, every suggestion seems geared toward increasing the
spring as if it represented an important virtue worthy of
any effort. It is as if, somehow, oven spring had become the
goal.

My point is that there is no single "best way" to knead (or
do much else when baking.) The fun, at least for me, is in
getting familiar with the diversity of results that can be
produced using the great variety of appropriate methods.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

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In article >,
says...
> On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:02:51 GMT, Espressopithecus (Java
> Man) >> wrote:
>
> >I guess I've been under-kneading consistently.

>
> Howdy,
>
> I would suggest another way of thinking about the kneading
> issue:
>
> A number of books have been written that offer the "window
> pane" as some sort of standard for the goal of "proper"
> kneading, but, in reality there is much more to it.
>
> When I want a very rustic "coarse" (that is, big irregular
> holes in the crumb) loaf, I don't knead at all. Instead, I
> just mix the ingredients to the point that I know there are
> no pockets of dry flour. I then leave it, often for more
> than 24 hours, in a cool place.
>
> When I want a very fine crumb, for example when making what
> the French call Pain de mie (it looks like Wonder bread, but
> sure does not taste the same) I use a kneading approach very
> similar to Mike's excellent suggestion.
>
> Another thing you may have read is that it is somehow a
> great success if a baker manages to get lots of "oven
> spring." As you may know, that is the increase in loaf size
> that sometimes happens during the bake.
>
> The issue is similar in that for certain breads, an increase
> in spring comes with a decrease in taste. Yet, in many
> books, every suggestion seems geared toward increasing the
> spring as if it represented an important virtue worthy of
> any effort. It is as if, somehow, oven spring had become the
> goal.
>
> My point is that there is no single "best way" to knead (or
> do much else when baking.) The fun, at least for me, is in
> getting familiar with the diversity of results that can be
> produced using the great variety of appropriate methods.
>

Thanks, Kenneth. I've been logging my methods and photographing the
loaves, so I'll have some basis for comparison. So far, I've been
baking sourdough using a low and even no-knead method, and getting great
oven spring. The 5-5-5 loaf just went into the oven, so I'll see what
comes out. Personally, I prefer well-developed flavour.

Java


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On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:17:21 GMT, Espressopithecus (Java
Man) >> wrote:

>Thanks, Kenneth. I've been logging my methods and photographing the
>loaves, so I'll have some basis for comparison. So far, I've been
>baking sourdough using a low and even no-knead method, and getting great
>oven spring. The 5-5-5 loaf just went into the oven, so I'll see what
>comes out. Personally, I prefer well-developed flavour.
>
>Java


Howdy,

Consider going for "less than" great oven spring...

That is, ferment the loaf a bit longer before baking it. You
are likely to see less spring, but more intense flavor.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

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On 2007-09-06, Kenneth > wrote:
[...]
> Consider going for "less than" great oven spring...
>
> That is, ferment the loaf a bit longer before baking it. You
> are likely to see less spring, but more intense flavor.


I have been working on the "problem" of good spring along with good
flavor and texture, and I'm having decent luck with a long bulk
fermentation and a short final proof, trying not to completely de-gas
during shaping. The long bulk ferment develops the flavor, and the
short final proof means that the dough still has some tension and
structure when you put it in the oven.

Still, oven spring is a somewhat mysterious process to me, and highly
variable. The fact that I work almost exclusively in whole grain
flours (and sometimes whole or cracked grains) makes it a bit
trickier, too. But I do try for the oven spring when I'm making bread
for a party, as it does look rather pretty when done just right.

Incidentally, my favorite "party" bread (an original recipe of mine; I
will post it when I have time to type it up if anybody cares to have
it) is shaped with a layer of cheese just beneath the surface. It is
shaped as a log (a fat baguette in terms of proportions), and scored
in the usual way for a baguette, but the cuts go through that layer of
dough and expose the cheese beneath. No matter how slack and
un-springy my dough is, if I shape and score properly, those cuts open
up beautifully and the cheese bubbles up from within and crisps up
toward the end of baking. It's quite visually impressive, and it
tastes pretty good too.

Dicky, if you're reading, I hope I didn't just cause you undue stress
by talking about a bread that incorporates CHEESE. Talk about
unnecessary additives. But keep in mind that this is something I
consider "party bread". It works quite well for that purpose.

--
Randall
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"Randall Nortman" > wrote in message ...

> ... Dicky, if you're reading, I hope I didn't just cause you undue
> stress by talking about a bread that incorporates CHEESE.


Randall seems to be well on the way to discovery of the cheese sandwich!
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On 6 Sep, 18:02, Espressopithecus (Java Man)
> I guess I've been under-kneading consistently.
>
> Thanks again, Mike.

But it's good to be consistent. : -)

Jim

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On 6 Sep, 19:18, Kenneth...
> Howdy,
>
> I would suggest another way of thinking about the kneading
> issue:

....
> When I want a very rustic "coarse" (that is, big irregular
> holes in the crumb) loaf, I don't knead at all. Instead, I
> just mix the ingredients to the point that I know there are
> no pockets of dry flour. I then leave it, often for more
> than 24 hours, in a cool place.

....
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth


You are the Daddy of long rises Kenneth. I really thank you for that,
it really is just the best way to do it, I realise that you weren't
using starter at the time but nonetheless you are the inspiration.

Jim



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On 7 Sep, 04:51, "Dick Adams" ...
> Randall seems to be well on the way to discovery of the cheese sandwich!


Yeah and you can even put pickled onions in too for that sour tang
'everyone' wants from sourdough. Funny how they don't want it in
yeasted bread.

Jim

Imagine if we took all our thoughts seriously.

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On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:22:31 -0700, TG
> wrote:

>I realise that you weren't
>using starter at the time


Hi again,

Why would you think I was not using starter?

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

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"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...
> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:22:31 -0700, TG
> > wrote:
> >I realise that you weren't using starter at the time

>
> Why would you think I was not using starter?


Maybe he assumes that us old people forget stuff all the time.

Maybe he understands that the commercial bread oven that
you have reported using is able to pop any old lump of unleavened
dough.
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>Incidentally, my favorite "party" bread (an original recipe of mine; I
>will post it when I have time to type it up if anybody cares to have
>it) is shaped with a layer of cheese just beneath the surface. It is
>shaped as a log (a fat baguette in terms of proportions), and scored
>


I'd like to see that recipe, please. It sounds good! Thanks!




Burney dot Huff at Mindspring dot com


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On 2007-09-07, BH > wrote:
>>Incidentally, my favorite "party" bread (an original recipe of mine; I
>>will post it when I have time to type it up if anybody cares to have
>>it) is shaped with a layer of cheese just beneath the surface. It is
>>shaped as a log (a fat baguette in terms of proportions), and scored
>>

>
> I'd like to see that recipe, please. It sounds good! Thanks!


The recipe is actually not the critical part; it's all about shaping.
Feel free to make it with your favorite dough, and just skip to the
shaping section. But here's the recipe I use:

Dough Ingredients (for a single loaf; I usually make a double batch):
300g whole wheat flour (I use whole white wheat, freshly ground)
230g skim or lowfat milk, scalded and cooled
6g starter (highly active, *NOT* straight from fridge)
4.5g salt

That's roughly 69% hydration once you account for the milk solids.
You want a wet but cohesive dough; if you were doing this with white
flour you'd use less liquid -- probably 65% or thereabouts.

I mix all ingredients but salt, then add the salt a few hours later.
I ferment for about 22 hours total, with strech & fold cycles whenever
I happen to be in the kitchen. Then there's about 2 hours final proof
after shaping (see below), then I bake on a stone preheated to 500F,
and turn down the heat to 450F as soon as it goes in the oven. I use
a *LOT* of steam via a homebuilt steam injection system involving a
pressure cooker with tubing to direct the steam into the oven. Get
steam in the oven however you are used to doing it, though different
methods will likely affect baking time. Baking time for me is usually
about 20 minutes or slightly less.

As I said, feel free to substitute your own favorite dough. When it
comes time to shape it, you will need the filling. Usually I use a
cheese and a "flavoring" of some sort. My two favorite combinations
are sharp cheddar and snipped chives, and pesto and provolone. I use
anywhere between 1/4 and 1/2 pound of cheese per loaf, usually closer
to 1/2lb. The cheese should be shredded.

Start by pressing the dough out gently into a rectangle about 1/3 inch
thick. The proportions of the rectangle determine whether you get
short, fat loaves or long, skinny ones. Spread the "flavoring"
topping (e.g., chives or pesto) over the dough, leaving 1" bare dough
along the top and sides so you can get a good seal. Layer the cheese
evenly and completely over this. Roll up from the bottom, keeping the
roll very tight as you go and trying to minimize trapped air as much
as possible -- this is very important. Pinch the seam and ends
closed, then roll gently back and forth to smooth the seam and ends a
bit and even out the shape. (You are not trying to elongate the loaf
here, just smooth things out. In fact, I often compact the loaf a
little as I roll, if it seems to be too long.) Sprinkle parchment
with cornmeal and place loaf seam down on parchment. Cover loosely
and proof 2 hours (or whatever your starter and temperature demands).

When ready to bake, score loaves as you would a baguette, making sure
to cut all the way through the top layer of dough to the cheese layer.
If you don't know how to score a baguette, I advise you to find
pictures somewhere, but to describe it briefly: The cuts should be
nearly parallel with the loaf itself, just slightly angled, but not
nearly as angled as they look after they've opened up. They should
overlap each other by roughly 1/3, with just a thin (1/2") strip of
dough between each cut. It is that thin strip of dough that is
critical in this particular loaf, because it is what will ultimately
separate your big gooey globs of oven-crisped cheese. If the strips
are too thin, the globs run together. If too thick, the cuts don't
open up properly. Do a couple of practice loaves before you make this
for company -- they will be delicious even if disastrous.

Note that cheese will likely bubble up over the sides of the loaves.
I usually leave the loaves on the parchment so that I don't get
charred pieces of cheese on the stone -- this doesn't hurt the stone,
but it sure makes a lot of smoke. Actually, come to think of it, I
think last time I did this I put the loaves on a baking sheet that
went directly on the stone, and it worked just fine, and was less
messy.

I should probably post photos somewhere. I think I have some taken,
but not put online anywhere.

--
Randall
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Default Cheesy Spiral Bread (was I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor)


"Randall Nortman" > wrote in message ...

> [ ... ]


> I should probably post photos somewhere.


That's a capital idea! You might consider posting them on the Web.

You are pretty much of a Poster Child for doing everything that
everybody told you to. Photos could show whether it is all
coming together in some acceptable way. Well, of course
your cheese bomb inspiration is unique. It could corrupt the
whole scene. Maybe to show 1. without the cheese bomb, and
2. with the cheese bomb.

> I think I have some taken, but not put online anywhere.


I took some and put them up. Carefully I wrote down all the
links on a sheet of paper. Now, where did I put that? (I never
exposed my cheese sandwich, but my fried baloney with kimchee
and Miracle Whip on sourdough attracted some interest.)
--
Dicky

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On 7 Sep 2007, at 13:31, Kenneth wrote:

>
> Hi again,
>
> Why would you think I was not using starter?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Kenneth



That's what you said at the time. That's what inspired my venture
into the maths and the formula. That's all. What you actually do I
have no idea. : -)
http://tinyurl.com/37ksaa

Jm
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On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 15:03:41 +0100, Jim
> wrote:

>On 7 Sep 2007, at 13:31, Kenneth wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi again,
>>
>> Why would you think I was not using starter?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --
>> Kenneth

>
>
>That's what you said at the time. That's what inspired my venture
>into the maths and the formula. That's all. What you actually do I
>have no idea. : -)
>http://tinyurl.com/37ksaa
>
>Jm


Hi again,

The link you provided is to another thread.

In this thread, I wrote (in part)

>When I want a very rustic "coarse" (that is, big irregular
>holes in the crumb) loaf, I don't knead at all. Instead, I
>just mix the ingredients to the point that I know there are
>no pockets of dry flour.


And that mention of "ingredients" included the start.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
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On 8 Sep 2007, at 15:35, Kenneth wrote:

>
> Hi again,
>
> The link you provided is to another thread.
>
> In this thread, I wrote (in part)
>
>> When I want a very rustic "coarse" (that is, big irregular
>> holes in the crumb) loaf, I don't knead at all. Instead, I
>> just mix the ingredients to the point that I know there are
>> no pockets of dry flour.

>
> And that mention of "ingredients" included the start.
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth



Hi Kenneth,

I don't think you understood what I was on about. Don't worry, you
were coming out looking good. : -)

Jim
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