(What has happened to this board....can Darrel or someonel delete all
the trash messages?)

Is it necessary to scald milk before adding it to a sourdough bread
recipe?

Trix wrote:

> (What has happened to this board....can Darrel or someonel delete all
> the trash messages?)
>
Looks like pleany of trash messages, wish someone would remove them.



> Is it necessary to scald milk before adding it to a sourdough bread
> recipe?

I would scald the milk.

Joe Umstead

It's my own, not something I ordered, so the fault is clearly mine, but
I'd like to figure out what went wrong.

1) I followed Carl's directions on drying pretty much exactly.
2) I dried out my whole wheat starter.
3) I followed Carlos' reviving directions pretty much exactly.
4) Except, I used whole wheat flour for reviving.
5) I dried the starter July 15, ground it in a spice grinder, put it in
a ziplock sandwich bag, kept it in a cooler on ice for five days in the
truck, and then popped it in the freezer when I got to my new house.

I'd made the dried starter as a backup, in case my regular starter
didn't survive the 3100 mile move in a big honking truck as a stiff
dough, but the doughball revived just fine. I was going to mail some of
the dry starter to my brother in Atlanta (I live in Oregon now), so this
was a test. 36 hours later and absolutely nothing is happening.

Questions:
1) Are some starters just not suitable for drying?
2) Could the use of whole wheat flour have made a difference?

Thanks,
---

Jeff Miller

On 2007-08-22, Trix > wrote:
> (What has happened to this board....can Darrel or someonel delete all
> the trash messages?)

rec.food.sourdough is not a "board". It has no moderators. It is a
USENET newsgroup. If you want to know what that means, wikipedia has
plenty of information I'm sure.

> Is it necessary to scald milk before adding it to a sourdough bread
> recipe?

Not necessary, but possibly helpful. Milk contains some stuff that
interferes with gluten, and if you have a large proportion of
unscalded milk in your dough, you might end up with poor gluten
strength -- sticky, easily torn dough. Scalding denatures the
culprits. But it is not necessary, and if milk only accounts for a
small portion of the liquid in your dough, you likely will not notice
the difference.

I always scald milk when I use it. I do it in a large glass (pyrex)
measure in the microwave, which I find easier and cleaner than on the
stovetop -- no baked-on milk proteins on the bottom of the pot. You
do need to stir several times, as when microwaving liquids you tend to
get a hot layer on top and a cool layer on the bottom, with little
mixing. And be careful of boiling over. The most inconvenient part
is that you then have to cool the milk before using it.

--
Randall

I use pasteurized milk, and when I'm putting it in a sourdough sandwich
loaf, I don't scald it, and it does fine.

If I were using raw milk, I'd definitely scald it.

For his new book, Peter Reinhart had his testers try scalding and not
scalding to see if it made a difference with pasteurized milk. The
result was, it made no difference. That test wasn't necessarily done on
sourdough bread, however.


--
Jeff Miller


Joe Umstead wrote:
> Trix wrote:
>
>> (What has happened to this board....can Darrel or someonel delete all
>> the trash messages?)
>>
> Looks like pleany of trash messages, wish someone would remove them.
>
>
>
>> Is it necessary to scald milk before adding it to a sourdough bread
>> recipe?
>
> I would scald the milk.
>
> Joe Umstead
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough
>
> To unsubscribe send a mail to and then reply to the confirmation request.
>
>

Trix wrote:
> (What has happened to this board....can Darrel or someonel delete all
> the trash messages?)
>
> Is it necessary to scald milk before adding it to a sourdough bread
> recipe?
>

I have read that scalding comes from the old days before pasteurization.

I still do it though because it makes for an easy place to dissolve my
sugar, salt and melt the butter or lard.

Mike

(I know this is usenet...and not a regular board....but I choose the
option to not get the postings as emails...I treat it like a
board...so it is annoying when there is a whole page of off topic
garbage....with no way to clean it up. I guess I was hoping that
google groups would have a way of clearing messages. I am a part of a
yahoo group where the moderator is able to screen messages.)

I use raw milk. I seldom add milk to my sourdough....but want to do
it today. I scalded the milk when I used it in sourdough a month ago
or so. It is a bit annoying to have to wait for it to cool.

Lucy

I use raw milk. I did scald it last time I used it. I guess I'll
continue to do so.

"Joe Umstead" > wrote in message ...
> > Is it necessary to scald milk before adding it to a sourdough bread
> > recipe?
>
> I would scald the milk.

I would not use milk. I would use water. Tap water.

Were I worried about cholera and stuff like that, I would boil it.


"Mike Romain" > wrote in message g.com...

> I still do it though because it makes for an easy place to dissolve my
> sugar, salt and melt the butter or lard.

Arrgh!

Trix wrote:
> (What has happened to this board....can Darrel or someonel delete all
> the trash messages?)

This isn't a "board," it's a Usenet newsgroup (although some read it
from a klodgy mail interface). As such, no one's really "in
charge"--this particular group is unmoderated.

You might want to ask what that all means over in news.newusers.questions.

B/

Trix wrote:
> (I know this is usenet...and not a regular board....but I choose the
> option to not get the postings as emails...I treat it like a
> board...so it is annoying when there is a whole page of off topic
> garbage....with no way to clean it up. I guess I was hoping that
> google groups would have a way of clearing messages. I am a part of a
> yahoo group where the moderator is able to screen messages.)
>
> I use raw milk. I seldom add milk to my sourdough....but want to do
> it today. I scalded the milk when I used it in sourdough a month ago
> or so. It is a bit annoying to have to wait for it to cool.
>
> Lucy
>

You can use a newsreader like Thunderbird and get the feed direct
instead of through an HTML site like Google 'if' you have access to a
Usenet server. You then can make input filter rules that dump garbage
like the MI5 freak so you don't see him.

Your ISP would be able to tell you if they support Usenet, some do, lots
don't. There are free or cheap servers though.

I always scald the milk. I don't trust the stores around here because I
get way too much milk that is 'off' or almost off despite not being
close to the expiry date on the tag.

Mike

On 22 Aug 2007, at 14:24, Jeff Miller wrote:

> Questions:
> 1) Are some starters just not suitable for drying?
> 2) Could the use of whole wheat flour have made a difference?
>
> Thanks,
> ---
>
> Jeff Miller

Hi Jeff,

a couple of things, some starters don't do too well if frozen. I
didn't have any luck with mine. I only did it the once and gave up
after 24 hours. When I used a starter made from commercial yeast I
froze part of it as back up a couple of time, it was a struggle
getting it going again, nothing too major but something I learned not
to bother with.

Whole wheat has a greater amount of its own flora on it so that's why
I wouldn't use it for reactivation plus white flour has a great
amount of food per gram by default.

That's all I can offer.

Jim

Jeff Miller wrote:
> It's my own, not something I ordered, so the fault is clearly mine, but
> I'd like to figure out what went wrong.
>
> 1) I followed Carl's directions on drying pretty much exactly.
> 2) I dried out my whole wheat starter.
> 3) I followed Carlos' reviving directions pretty much exactly.
> 4) Except, I used whole wheat flour for reviving.
> 5) I dried the starter July 15, ground it in a spice grinder, put it in
> a ziplock sandwich bag, kept it in a cooler on ice for five days in the
> truck, and then popped it in the freezer when I got to my new house.
>
> I'd made the dried starter as a backup, in case my regular starter
> didn't survive the 3100 mile move in a big honking truck as a stiff
> dough, but the doughball revived just fine. I was going to mail some of
> the dry starter to my brother in Atlanta (I live in Oregon now), so this
> was a test. 36 hours later and absolutely nothing is happening.
>
> Questions:
> 1) Are some starters just not suitable for drying?
> 2) Could the use of whole wheat flour have made a difference?
>
> Thanks,
> ---
>
> Jeff Miller
>

I have had starter go dead from bad water. Too much chlorine in it.

Bottled water with the same dry starter worked.

Some bottled water has chlorine and also craps out my starter.

Mike

Trix wrote:
> I use raw milk. I did scald it last time I used it. I guess I'll
> continue to do so.
>
Would that depend on whether it is added to the starter as opposed to
adding it to the dough? I mean if you're going to cook it soon does it
still need pasteurising?
--
Ginny - in West Australia

Plan ahead ... It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark. -- Unknown

On 23 Aug, 10:13, Ginny > wrote:
> Trix wrote:
> > I use raw milk. I did scald it last time I used it. I guess I'll
> > continue to do so.
>
> Would that depend on whether it is added to the starter as opposed to
> adding it to the dough? I mean if you're going to cook it soon does it
> still need pasteurising?
> --
> Ginny - in West Australia

Hi Ginny,

I think the whole reason raw milk or just milk is scalded is, as
someone else said, to denature the enzymes that interfere with the
gluten formation. Raw milk from a good supply is perfectly good to
drink and when it 'turns' is still good to use. Since some people have
said they use it as is and have no problems I think it should be up to
the individual to decide if they want to scald it or not. I only ever
use milk for baking if it needs using up and even then it's usually
been fermented first in some way either with yogurt or kefir so I
never scald. I've made some really great wholewheat bread with just
kefir, no other type of leavening agent. The crumb and gluten
formation has been great.

Jim

Ginny wrote:
> Trix wrote:
>
>> I use raw milk. I did scald it last time I used it. I guess I'll
>> continue to do so.
>>
>>
> Would that depend on whether it is added to the starter as opposed to
> adding it to the dough? I mean if you're going to cook it soon does it
> still need pasteurising?
>
The reason for scalding milk is to denature an enzyme that interferes
with the dough's rise. Pasteurization has been refined to a point where
it is relatively gentle, so even pasteurized milk is said to have the
enzyme intact. And many dehydrated milks also have the enzyme. Laurel
Robertson, in "Breads From Laurel's Kitchen" recommends mixing up the
instant milk and then scalding it. King Arthur flour has a special
instant milk that has the enzyme removed or denatured to improve rise.

Many people say, "I never scald my milk and my rise is just fine!" In
that case, I'd suggest trying it once to see if it makes a difference,
but if you are happy with your bread, why mess with success?

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Hit 'em high
Hit 'em low
It's action rooters crave
Millions boast -- millions toast
The All-American shave
Burma-Shave

On Aug 22, 6:02 am, Trix > wrote:

> Is it necessary to scald milk before adding it to a sourdough bread
> recipe?

I use soy milk fresh ground from the beans directly with no problem.
I've replaced soy milk 1:1 for the water in recipes up to 100% for
long leavened SD loaves. The soy milk is gently cooked up to 160-180
degrees F when it's made, spiked with a tablespoon of brown sugar and
half a teaspoon of salt per liter; but not given a roiling boil as
this may denature its proteins and precipitate the tofu out of the
whey, making a very disappointing milk IMO. Soy does the milk
functions pretty well: adds softness, nutrition and darkens the loaves
with complex sugars that are not typically fermented by SD organisms
in the time it takes to rise and bake. No unwanted cholesterol or
veal, if anyone cares. A couple of spoonfuls of fresh soy flour may
also do the same thing. But you must use it prompty as whole soy flour
quickly turns bitter only a few days after grinding. If I scald the
storage bottle soymilk lasts a week or more.

> (What has happened to this board....can Darrel or someonel delete all
> the trash messages?)

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.
Like sand through the hourglass,
These are the days of our lives.

-- Omar Khayyam

"Slim Langer" > wrote in message ps.com...
> On Aug 22, 6:02 am, Trix > wrote:
>
> > Is it necessary to scald milk before adding it to a sourdough bread
> > recipe?
>
> I use soy milk fresh ground from the beans directly with no problem.
> I've replaced soy milk 1:1 for the water in recipes up to 100% for
> long leavened SD loaves.

> [ ... ]

> > (What has happened to this board....can Darrel or someonel delete all
> > the trash messages?)

Does she mean all these messages about adding all kinds of crap to sourdough?

> The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, moves on.

Once it wrote that sourdough can be most adequately done with flour, water,
salt, and sourdough culture. No telling what kind of nonsense it is going to
write next.

--
Dicky

On Aug 24, 2:02 pm, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

> Does she mean all these messages about adding all kinds of crap to sourdough?
>
> > The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, moves on.
>
> Once it wrote that sourdough can be most adequately done with flour, water,
> salt, and sourdough culture. No telling what kind of nonsense it is going to
> write next.
>
> --
> Dicky

Hi Mr. Adams, hope you're doing well. I'll add some softer milky
texture to sourdough biscuits, pinch-offs and cinamon-rolls when I
bake 'em and think naught of any purist fashion. (Sometimes adequate
is not good enough.) I usually use some "milk" in the mix with a high
percentage of whole wheat flour to improve taste and in SD pancakes,
too. Soy flour is whole grain flour (the way I make it) and natural
and healthy to my lights (though a minor ingredient) when compared to
the sifted unbleached white bread flour that the French made
traditional for levain breads. The flour that makes for such a simple
recipe is not a simiple ingredient. Except for maybe the nutrition
they leave out. And I propose that reasonably intelligent talk over
such subjects is not trash talk, but the stuff of this board. Thank
you for your attention. Nice to hear from you again!

Slim

"Slim Langer" > wrote in message ups.com...

> Nice to hear from you again!

Well, I don't think you heard from me before, at least in the sense
that I replied to any of your posts. Nor this time, as my reply was
to some one who quoted something you had written.

But now that I have you, can you shed some light on your statements?:

> Soy flour is whole grain flour (the way I make it) ...

and, from you recent post: ps.com

> I use soy milk fresh ground from the beans directly ...

Soy, being a bean, seems tough to convert to whole-grain flour*. Grinding milk
directly from beans does also not seem realistic**.

We do, quixotically, make a continuing uphill effort to keep things from getting
too silly here. I guess you know what has happened over at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/ . Yes, you must, and maybe
that is why you are back here again. Well, OK, but you should make an effort
to escape the Yahoo mold.

--
Dicky
__________________________________________________ __________
* That would be whole-bean flour
** Normally, I understand, the beans are first ground, and then the grindings
are extracted with hot water.

On 25 Aug 2007, at 03:46, Dick Adams wrote:

> I guess you know what has happened over at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/ . Yes, you must, and maybe
> that is why you are back here again. Well, OK, but you should make
> an effort
> to escape the Yahoo mould.
>
> --
> Dicky

Oh he knows alright, he plays a major roll in rallying round the
baying mob of banshees when anyone doesn't toe the Smallmindsville
knitting community's line.
Jim

On 2007-08-25, Dick Adams > wrote:
>
> Soy, being a bean, seems tough to convert to whole-grain flour*. Grinding milk
> directly from beans does also not seem realistic**.
[...]
> * That would be whole-bean flour

Whole-seed flour captures the entire spectrum.

> ** Normally, I understand, the beans are first ground, and then the grindings
> are extracted with hot water.

Getting off topic a bit here, but actually, the usual method is to
first soak, boil, and/or blanch the beans in water, and then grind
(blend) them together with the water, and then filter out the
insoluble portion (okara). I'd call that "directly from beans".

Incidentally, I recommend grinding/blending while the mixture is very
close to boiling temperature, as this prevents the lipoxygenase (very
plentiful in soy) from oxidizing the oils, which is what creates the
pungent beany flavor most people don't care for, and also makes it
healthier. Strain will still hot, seal, and refrigerate.

--
Randall

"Randall Nortman" > wrote in message ...
> On 2007-08-25, Dick Adams > wrote:
> > * That would be whole-bean flour
>
> Whole-seed flour captures the entire spectrum.

So what?

> > ** Normally, I understand, the beans are first ground, and
> > the grindings are extracted with hot water.
>
> Getting off topic a bit here, but actually, the usual method is to
> first soak, boil, and/or blanch the beans in water, and then grind
> (blend) them together with the water, and then filter out the
> insoluble portion (okara). I'd call that "directly from beans".

Admittedly my description fell short. However I still have some trouble
considering that the homogenization or pressing of a soggy mass of beans
constitutes grinding.

The usual process for home production of soy milk involves a Chinese
implement* which grinds the whole beans in hot water. I suppose that
could be called "direct" and "grinding" since the beans are dry (and
unhulled, incidentally) to start, compared to the commercial process
e.g. http://www.madehow.com/Volume-5/Soy-Milk.html

Notwithstanding, soy milk is, at best, a capricious and unlikely
component of sourdough.

--
Dicky
__________________________________________________ ___
* Search <"soy milk" maker>

Dicky,

You probably have it set to have all the MI5 Persecution Posts
filtered out of your email. That was given as a suggestion to
me...but, so far, I have been too lazy to change how I read this
Usenet...I've been using Google groups.

I do use the junk email filter on Outlook but haven't made a rule for
this and haven't changed my preferences to receive 'email' posts,
having preferred to just read them here when I feel like it.

I don't think it a sin to add other ingredients (like milk etc.) to SD
bread sometimes though I regularly make the 4 ingredient SD. I felt
like having a softer crumb sandwich bread this week....it also made
good French toast.

For weeks I had been making a higher hydration SD which produced some
big holes....that jelly and stuff would fall through. I am now
satisfied that I can make bread like that when I want. I've only been
at this SD bread baking a year or so.

Thanks for your input and sense of humor.

Lucy

"Trix" > wrote in message ups.com...
> Dicky,
>
> You probably have it set to have all the MI5 Persecution Posts
> filtered out of your email. That was given as a suggestion to
> me...but, so far, I have been too lazy to change how I read this
> Usenet...I've been using Google groups.

Outlook Express seems to filter out some of the MI5 junk. It is a
cinch to delete whatever else comes through. No doubt a filter could
be set, but so far it has not seemed necessary. I would never have
guessed how bad it gets at Googlegroups.

> I don't think it a sin to add other ingredients (like milk etc.) to SD
> bread sometimes though I regularly make the 4 ingredient SD.

Well, I can get a soft, fine crumb without adding any kind of milk.
And that without the decrease in potential rise milk causes.
So what do you think about that?

> For weeks I had been making a higher hydration SD which
> produced some big holes....that jelly and stuff would fall through.

Have you posted pics? So far I seem to have missed them.

Does you bread look like Iggy's yet?:
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/iggys.htm

--
Dicky

Ginny wrote:
> Trix wrote:
>> I use raw milk. I did scald it last time I used it. I guess I'll
>> continue to do so.
>>
> Would that depend on whether it is added to the starter as opposed to
> adding it to the dough? I mean if you're going to cook it soon does it
> still need pasteurising?

Will keep that in mind. Thanks guys.

--
Ginny - in West Australia

Plan ahead ... It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark. -- Unknown

Ginny wrote:
> Ginny wrote:
>> Trix wrote:
>>> I use raw milk. I did scald it last time I used it. I guess I'll
>>> continue to do so.
>>>
>> Would that depend on whether it is added to the starter as opposed to
>> adding it to the dough? I mean if you're going to cook it soon does it
>> still need pasteurising?
>
> Will keep that in mind. Thanks guys.
>

How fast do any 'bad' little critters that live in raw milk multiply at
85 F where the aimed for rise temperature is?

Does the poison they potentially create get killed by cooking?

Mike

On 2007-08-28, Mike Romain > wrote:
[...]
> How fast do any 'bad' little critters that live in raw milk multiply at
> 85 F where the aimed for rise temperature is?

If there are bad critters, they will multiply very quickly at that
temperature, but then so will the "good" critters, who will make the
milk acidic and therefore inhospitable to the bad guys. At 85F, raw
milk will clabber before the day is out. In general, the closer you
are to body temperature, the more risk there is of culturing
pathogenic bacteria.

> Does the poison they potentially create get killed by cooking?

You are probably thinking of botulinum toxin. It does degrade pretty
rapidly at high temperatures, but I'm not sure that the interior of
bread reaches high enough temperatures or stays there long enough to
guarantee that all of the toxin would be destroyed, and it only takes
a small dose botox taken internally to cause pretty big problems.
Lethal dose is on the order of 1ng/kg, or about 80ng to kill a 180lb
person. (ng = nanogram, 0.000000001g). When used therapeutically it
is used in extremely small doses, and applied directly to the muscles
being targetted. It is not a poison to be trifled with.

However, botulism is not your big concern in raw milk. Clostridium
botulinum only produces toxin in anaerobic conditions, and also does
not like acidic conditions. The big potential problems in raw milk
are E. coli, Salmonella, and Listeria. The problem with them is not
so much toxins as infection, and cooking will kill the first two, but
Listeria can survive brief high temperatures (which means it can be
found even in pasteurized milk). I think baking would get rid of most
of it, though. None of those three are likely to survive in
significant quantities for more than a couple of generations in a
continuously propogated culture that is allowed to get quite acidic,
though. But using it unscalded to make your dough would be a pretty
wild experiment, though -- probably it wouldn't kill you, but in any
case the effect on your bread would be very unpredictable.

Another potential problem would be mycotoxins from fungal
contamination, which may not be destroyed by baking. However, I don't
think raw milk is any more likely than pasteurized to be contaminated
by molds and fungi -- those spores will come from the air, not the
cow. Again, most of them will not be happy in an acidic,
multi-generation culture. But if you ever see anything mold-like on
your starter, do not use it until you have managed to propogate it
mold-free for several generations.

--
Randall

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message ng.com...
> How fast do any 'bad' little critters that live in raw milk multiply at
> 85 F where the aimed for rise temperature is?
>
> Does the poison they potentially create get killed by cooking?

Is it safe to make your own bread? To cook your own food anyway?

Is it safer to buy your bread at the store, or maybe eat out altogether?

"Randall Nortman" > wrote in message ...
> ... if you ever see anything mold-like on your starter, do not
> use it until you have managed to propogate it mold-free for
> several generations.

Yeah, well, how 'bout the stuff you cannot see? Some of those
little critters are really extremely small.

Watch out for cheese, too -- cheese is full of mold. In bleu cheese
it is bleu so you can find it and cut it out. But in most cheeses is it
mixed in real good.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message ng.com...
>> How fast do any 'bad' little critters that live in raw milk multiply at
>> 85 F where the aimed for rise temperature is?
>>
>> Does the poison they potentially create get killed by cooking?
>
> Is it safe to make your own bread? To cook your own food anyway?
>
> Is it safer to buy your bread at the store, or maybe eat out altogether?
>
> "Randall Nortman" > wrote in message ...
>> ... if you ever see anything mold-like on your starter, do not
>> use it until you have managed to propogate it mold-free for
>> several generations.
>
> Yeah, well, how 'bout the stuff you cannot see? Some of those
> little critters are really extremely small.
>
> Watch out for cheese, too -- cheese is full of mold. In bleu cheese
> it is bleu so you can find it and cut it out. But in most cheeses is it
> mixed in real good.
>
> --
> Dicky
>

Very intelligent responses, thanks.

I was figuring that there likely was a 'reason' milk got pasteurized and
wasn't allowed to be sold in a raw state and it had to do with the 'bad'
bugs that can grow in it. At least up here in Canada they aren't
allowed to sell raw milk, don't know about where you live, maybe there
are no bad bugs there?....

Mike

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message g.com...
> ... I was figuring that there likely was a 'reason' milk got pasteurized and
> wasn't allowed to be sold in a raw state and it had to do with the 'bad'
> bugs that can grow in it. At least up here in Canada they aren't
> allowed to sell raw milk, don't know about where you live, maybe there
> are no bad bugs there?

Well, you know, you can make sourdough without any milk at all.

It continues to amaze how many ways you startermuckers can find
to muck up your starters.

But don't worry. So far as I know, there are no reports of sickness
or death due to sourdough starter gone wrong. (That's assuming you
ever get far enough with your sourdough so has to have something
appropriate to ingest.)

--
Dicky

" It continues to amaze how many ways you startermuckers can find
> to muck up your starters."

I don't muck with my starter. I always take out my storage starter
for the next time before adding any other ingredients aside from the
flour and water.

I use raw milk from a trusted source. I believe it is healthier to
drink that regular grocery store milk....tastes great too....it is
real whole milk.

info on real milk: http://www.realmilk.com/

"Trix" > wrote in message ups.com...

> ... I use raw milk from a trusted source.

Presumably a cow. (Hopefully a disease-free one.)

Well, you know, you could use water as well.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Trix" > wrote in message ups.com...
>
>> ... I use raw milk from a trusted source.
>
> Presumably a cow. (Hopefully a disease-free one.)
>
> Well, you know, you could use water as well.
>
> --
> Dicky

Some of us make all our daily bread and like a bit of variety in flavors
and textures.

One kind of bread only every day gets 'old' fast in my mind.

Could you imagine only having 'Wonderbread' every day? Uggg, but it
'is' nice now and then, so are 'French sticks' made with more than 4
ingredients and 'no' kneading as well as plain 4 ingredient SD.

I know I can't convince you, but hey that is what newsgroups are all
about.

Mike

Dick Adams wrote:
>
> Well, you know, you can make sourdough without any milk at all.
>
I realize that this is a major campaign for you, but - could you give it
a rest?

You can make bread without sourdough.

You can make bread without salt.

You can make bread without riser.

You can make bread without wheat or rye flour.

However, at the end of the bake, most people don't care nearly so much
about what the bread was made with as whether or not they enjoy the
bread. The point of the exercise is to make something the baker, or the
baker's customers - whether that is friends, family or people with money
- want to eat. And many times that means making breads that go beyond
the big four.

Sure, you can make all your breads with just the big four. But why
bother? Why put yourself into that straight jacket? Break the mold.
Live a little. Put some cinnamon and raisins in your bread.

Or some olives, olive oil, rosemary and a bit of red pepper.

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
When in doubt, HAVE A BEER and think about it!

Randall Nortman wrote:
> On 2007-08-28, Mike Romain > wrote:
> [...]
>> How fast do any 'bad' little critters that live in raw milk multiply at
>> 85 F where the aimed for rise temperature is?
>
> If there are bad critters, they will multiply very quickly at that
> temperature, but then so will the "good" critters, who will make the
> milk acidic and therefore inhospitable to the bad guys.

Thanks.

So it is basically a race then...

I like whole milk and love fresh milk, but have seen too many cases of
bad food from being left out on the counter, let alone at 85F to trust
anything treated as such.

I will stick with pasteurized and still scald it when I make that type
of bread.

I even worry about the modern day eggs. According to newspaper articles
here in Toronto Canada, they are supposed to be the last thing you pick
up at the grocery and the first thing into the fridge. They 'can' spoil
'that' fast now a days.

Mike

Mike Romain wrote:

> I even worry about the modern day eggs. According to newspaper articles
> here in Toronto Canada, they are supposed to be the last thing you pick
> up at the grocery and the first thing into the fridge. They 'can' spoil
> 'that' fast now a days.

In other fora, I have cautioned that grocery stores should keep a bin by
the door, so people can purchase their groceries and immediately toss them.

B/

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message news:mailman.5.1188341978.32610.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
> ... I realize that this is a major campaign for you, but -
> could you give it a rest?

Well, it is not for the present assortment of dough diddlers,
startermuckers, adulterators, and food poets such as yourself,
but for the occasional random rational inquiry about getting
started with sourdough.

So, one may know, for instance, by these writings, that one
does not need to buy a cow to start, nor to summon the health
authorities when spots of mold appear.

--
Dicky

Mike Romain wrote:
> I even worry about the modern day eggs. According to newspaper articles
> here in Toronto Canada, they are supposed to be the last thing you pick
> up at the grocery and the first thing into the fridge. They 'can' spoil
> 'that' fast now a days.
>
I'm with Brian on this one...... paranoia goes to far at times.

Some time ago in one of the food fora, I posted a note about a Nero
Wolfe show in which Nero and Archie were running from the cops. One of
Archie's lady friends hid them. Nero offered to thank her by fixing her
a breakfast to remember. Scrambled eggs. He opined that his weren't as
good as Fritz, his manservant, would make, but that they would be very
good. He also suggested his hostess didn't know how to scramble eggs.
He asked she give him 40 minutes notice so he could make them properly.
She was amazed and doubtful. Wolfe cackled that he KNEW she didn't know
how to scramble eggs properly.

At that point, I started a search off and on line for scrambled egg
recipes that could take 40 minutes.

I found one and shared it. The first 20 minutes are spent allowing the
eggs to come to room temperature.

At that point, the narrative ended. A lady from Yorkshire asked why on
earth the eggs wouldn't be at room temperature? A cultural chasm was
revealed. The people in the group from the USA could not fathom the
idea of eggs that weren't refrigerated. The English people were stunned
to hear that we refrigerated our eggs. It ruins them, you know.

The biggest difference is that in England all the eggs are date stamped
as to the date the hen laid them. You KNOW how fresh your egg is. And
in the store, it will be just a few days old at most. The hen houses
are near the cities where the eggs will be sold. In the USA, and
perhaps Canada, there is a vast distance between the hen house and the
consumer. And if the eggs aren't refrigerated, they WILL perish before
being sold. The average egg in the USA is said to be several months
old. How much difference does that make? Go to a farmers market and
buy some fresh eggs and see. Of course, they will be refrigerated as
the USA and Canadian farmers are convinced that unrefrigerated eggs are
veritable land mines.

Alton Brown on "Good Eats" found some USDA statistics. How common is
egg contamination in the USA? According to the USDA filtered through
Alton and my sometimes wobbly memory, 1 in 10,000. If you eat two eggs
a day, you'll encounter a bad egg sometime in the next 13.7 years. While
the danger is significant to people with impaired immune systems, the
danger does seem to be overemphasized

Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Sorry, a fatal error has occurred. You're dead.

Mike Avery wrote:
> Mike Romain wrote:
>> I even worry about the modern day eggs. According to newspaper articles
>> here in Toronto Canada, they are supposed to be the last thing you pick
>> up at the grocery and the first thing into the fridge. They 'can' spoil
>> 'that' fast now a days.
>>
> I'm with Brian on this one...... paranoia goes to far at times.

Well, the rather crusty French fellow, the executive chef that trained
me (no school here, I did it the old way by apprenticing)... said the
problem here was that we've never had a famine and there's no
institutional memory.

> Some time ago in one of the food fora, I posted a note about a Nero
> Wolfe show in which Nero and Archie were running from the cops. One of
> Archie's lady friends hid them. Nero offered to thank her by fixing her
> a breakfast to remember. Scrambled eggs. He opined that his weren't as
> good as Fritz, his manservant, would make, but that they would be very
> good. He also suggested his hostess didn't know how to scramble eggs.
> He asked she give him 40 minutes notice so he could make them properly.
> She was amazed and doubtful. Wolfe cackled that he KNEW she didn't know
> how to scramble eggs properly.
>
> At that point, I started a search off and on line for scrambled egg
> recipes that could take 40 minutes.

Well, we have it backwards here. That omelets/omelettes take a bit of
doing and scrambled eggs are fast. Look up th recipes that take half
the weight of the eggs in butter and are cooked in a double boiler.

> I found one and shared it. The first 20 minutes are spent allowing the
> eggs to come to room temperature.
>
> At that point, the narrative ended. A lady from Yorkshire asked why on
> earth the eggs wouldn't be at room temperature? A cultural chasm was
> revealed. The people in the group from the USA could not fathom the
> idea of eggs that weren't refrigerated. The English people were stunned
> to hear that we refrigerated our eggs. It ruins them, you know.

> Alton Brown on "Good Eats" found some USDA statistics. How common is
> egg contamination in the USA? According to the USDA filtered through
> Alton and my sometimes wobbly memory, 1 in 10,000. If you eat two eggs
> a day, you'll encounter a bad egg sometime in the next 13.7 years. While
> the danger is significant to people with impaired immune systems, the
> danger does seem to be overemphasized

Well, yeah, but that's assuming the risk is equal everywhere. That
1:10,000 statistic has been bruited about, bit it's a mean number, not
an absolute. Depends on what region you're in.

Anyway, the "bad eggs" don't come from not being refrigerated, they're
contaminated inside the chicken before the shell forms. That is, it's
the *chicken* that has salmonella.

B/