Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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Default Scald milk

On 29 Aug, 05:31, Brian Mailman > wrote:

> Anyway, the "bad eggs" don't come from not being refrigerated, they're
> contaminated inside the chicken before the shell forms. That is, it's
> the *chicken* that has salmonella.
>
> B/

That isn't the whole story either Brian. but I'm not an expert. The
reason eggs are not washed here in the UK is because that can cause
the inside of the egg to become contaminated with salmonella.

Anyway I have never in my life come across a bad egg here. I do keep
my eggs in the fridge and use them well after the sell by date, which
as Mike suggested is for room temperature storage. We don't as a rule
have our eggs in the fridge. You can tell when an egg isn't fresh it
isn't in three distinct parts when it's cracked open. We have the Lion
stamp here "... [which] shows you that the egg has been produced
according to a set of industry standards, such as hens being
vaccinated against salmonella. As well as the red lion, there is also
a 'best-before' date on them (21 days after laying). There is also a
number which identifies the way that the hens are kept - 0 for
organic, 1 for free range, 2 for barn eggs and 3 for cage eggs. This
number is followed by a country code (e.g. UK) and a set of numbers
which identifies the farm from which the egg originated."
http://www.open2.net/healthliving/ho...ggsecrets.html

Jim

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This is from a local lady who sells eggs and goats milk, as part of
her FAQ:

Do you wash the eggs?

Our eggs are neither washed nor refrigerated to slow the aging process
so you may find mud or bits of hay in your cartons. Once an egg is
refrigerated it must remain refrigerated and the aging process has
begun. Washing take the "bloom" off an egg which is natures way of
preserving. Due to our no wash policy, we ask that everyone wash their
eggs before use. Eggs last at least two weeks on the shelf and up to a
month refrigerated. Empty cartons are gladly accepted.

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TG wrote:
> On 29 Aug, 05:31, Brian Mailman > wrote:
>
>> Anyway, the "bad eggs" don't come from not being refrigerated, they're
>> contaminated inside the chicken before the shell forms. That is, it's
>> the *chicken* that has salmonella.


> That isn't the whole story either Brian. but I'm not an expert. The
> reason eggs are not washed here in the UK is because that can cause
> the inside of the egg to become contaminated with salmonella.
>
> Anyway I have never in my life come across a bad egg here. I do keep
> my eggs in the fridge and use them well after the sell by date, which
> as Mike suggested is for room temperature storage. We don't as a rule
> have our eggs in the fridge.


Well, I've also been in rural parts of France, where people are thrifty
with their energy euro (and usually everything else) and refrigerators
are under the counter, and the size of mini-bars in the fancier hotel
rooms. Many things we'd refrigerate here are left out. Then again,
those people are used to shopping daily or several times a week so items
are used fairly quickly.

Even here in San Francisco, buildings and houses that were erected up to
maybe the 1950s or early '60s came with a "cool pantry" (like a cabinet
in the wall, but open to an outside airwell which was shaded throughout
the day) for butter, eggs, cheeses, and other goods that benefit from
cool but not needing refrigeration.

B/
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I'm curious -- how much starter are people using in their dough, and how
long does it take to rise before it's ready to go in the oven?

I tend to use a large amount of starter -- about 30% of the flour in the
bread is in the starter -- and I find that it takes about 6 hours before
it's ready to go in the oven. I give it about four hours in bulk at room
temp (~68 degrees F) and then, after shaping, let it rise in a picnic
cooler with a cup of boiling water thrown in the bottom for about 2
hours. In the cooler, it's usually between 80-85 degrees F.

Reading through several books, however (I know, Dick. Reading bread
books is bad for one's baking), I've noticed that a lot of professional
bakers seem to use much less starter (usually around 15% of the flour in
the starter) and also let it ferment for a much shorter period of time.
Jeffrey Hammelman, for example, goes with 15% and then lets it rise 2.5
hours in bulk, and about 2 - 2.5 hours after shaping at about 75 degrees F.

What's everyone else's experience? Is my starter just slow? Am I
over-fermenting? Or are professional bakers intentionally
under-fermenting so they can get some seriously dramatic oven spring?
(I'm thinking of bread that looks like this:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/566)

--
Jeff

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With white - 15 - 20 % of flour in the starter.

Rise times 2 + 2, or about that.

Your issues seem to be low temperature in bulk rise, and maybe starter
quality.

Also, if you use a large amount of starter and in relation to the total
flour - little "food" - that could be another source, but I think it's a
starter issue.

If you refer to a picture of your goal and not what _you_ get - without
how you grow your starter, it appears difficult to make any better
judgments what is going on.


S.

Jeff Miller wrote:
> I'm curious -- how much starter are people using in their dough, and how
> long does it take to rise before it's ready to go in the oven?
>
> I tend to use a large amount of starter -- about 30% of the flour in the
> bread is in the starter -- and I find that it takes about 6 hours before
> it's ready to go in the oven. I give it about four hours in bulk at room
> temp (~68 degrees F) and then, after shaping, let it rise in a picnic
> cooler with a cup of boiling water thrown in the bottom for about 2
> hours. In the cooler, it's usually between 80-85 degrees F.
>
> Reading through several books, however (I know, Dick. Reading bread
> books is bad for one's baking), I've noticed that a lot of professional
> bakers seem to use much less starter (usually around 15% of the flour in
> the starter) and also let it ferment for a much shorter period of time.
> Jeffrey Hammelman, for example, goes with 15% and then lets it rise 2.5
> hours in bulk, and about 2 - 2.5 hours after shaping at about 75 degrees F.
>
> What's everyone else's experience? Is my starter just slow? Am I
> over-fermenting? Or are professional bakers intentionally
> under-fermenting so they can get some seriously dramatic oven spring?
> (I'm thinking of bread that looks like this:
> http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/566)
>
> --
> Jeff
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
>
http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough
>
>




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On Aug 29, 4:00 pm, Jeff Miller > wrote:

> What's everyone else's experience? Is my starter just slow?


No. Not given the time and temperatures you're at.

> Am I over-fermenting?


No. You could go longer in primary.

>Or are professional bakers intentionally
> under-fermenting so they can get some seriously dramatic oven spring?


No. But they are slightly under proofing.

There's a difference between under-fermenting and under-proofing.

Imagine a dough that is bulk fermented for 8 hours at 70 F. It should
be reasonably ripe and gassy by that time. At which point you shape
and final proof. The last proof can be shorter, to maximize spring, or
longer, to optimize crust qualities. In either case, the time
difference between the two is probably less than an hour (the
venerable poke test is particularly useful for fine-tuning).

So the dough can be both well fermented AND under-proofed.






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On 2007-08-29, Jeff Miller > wrote:
> I'm curious -- how much starter are people using in their dough, and how
> long does it take to rise before it's ready to go in the oven?


My standard loaf now uses a tiny amount of starter and a 24-hour
fermentation. Roughly 1% of flour comes from a very active starter.
I mix all ingredients all at once, except for salt, which goes in 2-6
hours later. I do not knead per se -- a few folds along the way do
the trick. Bulk fermentation is about 20-22 hours at room
temperature, which varies throughout the year and so I vary the
starter amount and also initial ingredient temperatures to compensate.
Final proof is usually about 2 hours, but the dough tells me when it's
ready.

That process works very well for me, because I do it with freshly
ground whole grain flour. The long contact time of flour and water
helps to "age" the flour a bit and thoroughly hydrate it. When I do a
more "normal" sourdough, I do 10-20% of flour from the starter,
roughly 4 hours bulk fermentation (with several folds) and 1-3 hours
proof. Using a smaller amount of starter and shorter times will give
you a much less sour result, which is generally my preference.

--
Randall
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Jeff Miller wrote:
> I'm curious -- how much starter are people using in their dough, and how
> long does it take to rise before it's ready to go in the oven?


I use one more step and take about 12 hours at least to make bread.

I feed it for the 8 hour first rise overnight, then feed it again and
let it double, sometimes this takes up to 4 hours, then on the third
stage I add bread ingredients. My final rise is at least a couple
hours, but depending on the day shorter or longer.

I am experimenting with time and oven bounce these days and think I like
the bounce better than a longer rise. Well, that really depends on
what 'kind' of bread i am making from the SD starter that day...

I use a cup of stirred starter per loaf or about 25% and normally make a
2 loaf recipe.

I read too and one book I follow says 2 cups of SD starter are equal to
one commercial yeast packet.

Mike
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"Jeff Miller" > wrote in message news:mailman.10.1188421277.32610.rec.food.sourdoug ...
> I'm curious -- how much starter are people using in their dough, and how
> long does it take to rise before it's ready to go in the oven?
>
> I tend to use a large amount of starter -- about 30% of the flour in the
> bread is in the starter -- and I find that it takes about 6 hours before
> it's ready to go in the oven. I give it about four hours in bulk at room
> temp (~68 degrees F) and then, after shaping, let it rise in a picnic
> cooler with a cup of boiling water thrown in the bottom for about 2
> hours. In the cooler, it's usually between 80-85 degrees F.
>
> Reading through several books, however (I know, Dick. Reading bread
> books is bad for one's baking), I've noticed that a lot of professional
> bakers seem to use much less starter (usually around 15% of the flour in
> the starter) and also let it ferment for a much shorter period of time.
> Jeffrey Hammelman, for example, goes with 15% and then lets it rise 2.5
> hours in bulk, and about 2 - 2.5 hours after shaping at about 75 degrees F.
>
> What's everyone else's experience? Is my starter just slow? Am I
> over-fermenting? Or are professional bakers intentionally
> under-fermenting so they can get some seriously dramatic oven spring?
> (I'm thinking of bread that looks like this:
> http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/566)
>
> --
> Jeff
>

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"Jeff Miller" > wrote in message news:mailman.10.1188421277.32610.rec.food.sourdoug ...
> I'm curious -- how much starter are people using in their dough, and how
> long does it take to rise before it's ready to go in the oven?


Would the answer not depend on the activity of the starter? Oh, yes,
and also on the amount of rise which is expected? And on the temperature,
nacherly. And what kind of crap besides bread flour, water, and salt you
put in it.

If the starter is big enough, then it is a sponge.

Well, I have quit using a sponge, rather, I goose up my starter
to superhuman activity. My hope is for a rise of 5 volumes prior
to baking. Good flour and technique is needed for that, or bromated.
Too bad for you you can't get bromated where you went to. Yes,
you are right, there are no books about it. It's all he
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ctions_Rev.doc

--
Dicky




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Sam wrote:
> With white - 15 - 20 % of flour in the starter.
>
> Rise times 2 + 2, or about that.
>
> Your issues seem to be low temperature in bulk rise, and maybe starter
> quality.


That's probably the case. Actually, I'm not at all unhappy with my
results. The bread comes out fine, I was just curious about others'
experiences with their starters. Sounds like you're more in line with
what I've read from professionals.

> Also, if you use a large amount of starter and in relation to the total
> flour - little "food" - that could be another source, but I think it's a
> starter issue.
>
> If you refer to a picture of your goal and not what _you_ get - without
> how you grow your starter, it appears difficult to make any better
> judgments what is going on.


Just to be clear, the photo I referenced wasn't actually my goal, I was
just trying to illustrate what I meant by extreme oven spring. Here's
the kind of stuff I usually bake:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/294...nger-so-kneady

Thanks!
--
Jeff
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On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:22:24 -0000, Randall Nortman
> wrote:

>I mix all ingredients all at once, except for salt, which goes in 2-6
>hours later. I do not knead per se -- a few folds along the way do
>the trick.


Hi Randall,

Do you find that the salt gets sufficiently well
distributed?

Thanks,
--
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Will wrote:

> There's a difference between under-fermenting and under-proofing.
>
> Imagine a dough that is bulk fermented for 8 hours at 70 F. It should
> be reasonably ripe and gassy by that time. At which point you shape
> and final proof. The last proof can be shorter, to maximize spring, or
> longer, to optimize crust qualities. In either case, the time
> difference between the two is probably less than an hour (the
> venerable poke test is particularly useful for fine-tuning).
>
> So the dough can be both well fermented AND under-proofed.


Hey, thanks! I'd not thought of it that way before, but, of course,
you're right. They're two separate, though related, functions.

--
Jeff
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Randall Nortman wrote:

> My standard loaf now uses a tiny amount of starter and a 24-hour
> fermentation. Roughly 1% of flour comes from a very active starter.
> I mix all ingredients all at once, except for salt, which goes in 2-6
> hours later. I do not knead per se -- a few folds along the way do
> the trick. Bulk fermentation is about 20-22 hours at room
> temperature, which varies throughout the year and so I vary the
> starter amount and also initial ingredient temperatures to compensate.
> Final proof is usually about 2 hours, but the dough tells me when it's
> ready.


Interesting. Yes, I stopped kneading as well a while back, replacing it
with regular folding. (Thank you, Mike Avery). I, too, work with freshly
ground whole wheat flour.

Do you usually make lean breads, or do you add other ingredients such as
milk, butter or honey?
--
Jeff
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Mike Romain wrote:

> I use one more step and take about 12 hours at least to make bread.
>
> I feed it for the 8 hour first rise overnight, then feed it again and
> let it double, sometimes this takes up to 4 hours, then on the third
> stage I add bread ingredients. My final rise is at least a couple
> hours, but depending on the day shorter or longer.


Wow -- well, it really does vary, then. We're using roughly the same
amount of starter and yours ferments for twice as long while others are
using half the starter I use and fermenting for 1/3 less time.

Thanks, Mike.

--
Jeff


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Dick Adams wrote:
> "Jeff Miller" > wrote in message news:mailman.10.1188421277.32610.rec.food.sourdoug ...
>> I'm curious -- how much starter are people using in their dough, and how
>> long does it take to rise before it's ready to go in the oven?

>
> Would the answer not depend on the activity of the starter? Oh, yes,
> and also on the amount of rise which is expected? And on the temperature,
> nacherly. And what kind of crap besides bread flour, water, and salt you
> put in it.


I agree on everything except the crap, really. Perhaps I'm not adding
crap in amounts significant enough to make much of a difference, but I
don't see much difference at all in the rise times between my sandwich
bread (includes about 1 Tbs butter, 1.5 Tbs honey and 1/2 liquid as milk
per loaf) and my "holy four" breads.

> If the starter is big enough, then it is a sponge.


If I use a small amount of starter, it's not a sponge? I'm not being
****y here, really. I'm not sure I understand what a sponge is to you.

> Well, I have quit using a sponge, rather, I goose up my starter
> to superhuman activity. My hope is for a rise of 5 volumes prior
> to baking. Good flour and technique is needed for that, or bromated.
> Too bad for you you can't get bromated where you went to. Yes,
> you are right, there are no books about it. It's all he
> http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ctions_Rev.doc


True, no bromated flour here. I figure I get more than my daily RDA of
carcinogens without resorting to supplements.

I do like that doc, though. Oh, and by the way, I tried again reviving
the dried starter, but this time with white flour. I don't know if the
white flour was the difference, but after two days, I had a big frothy
bowl of starter. It worked!

--
Jeff

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On 29 Aug, 22:00, Jeff Miller > wrote:
> I'm curious -- how much starter are people using in their dough, and how
> long does it take to rise before it's ready to go in the oven?
>
> I tend to use a large amount of starter -- about 30% of the flour in the
> bread is in the starter -- and I find that it takes about 6 hours before
> it's ready to go in the oven....are professional bakers intentionally
> under-fermenting so they can get some seriously dramatic oven spring?
> (I'm thinking of bread that looks like this:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/566)
>
> --
> Jeff


Hi Jeff, as you know I use whatever amount of starter gets me to the
oven in the time I have
which is usually around 20 hours.

I punched your figures into my calc sheet and came up with ± 5 hours.
I've had to average out your temps though to about 74F so it may not
be that reliable and use a range of hydrations.

As a check I punched in the figures you give for Hamelman and get ± 6
hours. This is based on my starter of course and I assume that
Hamelman means the same as you when he says 15%.

Tweaking my formula to get the same results as Hamelman, I'd expect
you to be baking in ± 4 hours.

I read what Will had said about proofing and fermenting and this is
where I tend to go astray of my formula when using large amounts of
starter. Though I don't tend to over ferment and proof pretty well my
timing can vary quite a bit because I can be a bit lax with the
folding and shaping schedule I can get differences of plus or minus an
hour on a 7 hour target.

You'd know if you were over fermenting assuming you don't add sugar
because you'd have browning issues when it came to toasting and
baking. I think you're in a good range, you could try to shape earlier
so you can bake earlier, see what happens but I think as long as
you're happy with the bread you're making it doesn't really matter.

Jim

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On 2007-08-30, Jeff Miller > wrote:
>
>
> Randall Nortman wrote:
>
>> My standard loaf now uses a tiny amount of starter and a 24-hour
>> fermentation. Roughly 1% of flour comes from a very active starter.
>> I mix all ingredients all at once, except for salt, which goes in 2-6
>> hours later. I do not knead per se -- a few folds along the way do
>> the trick. Bulk fermentation is about 20-22 hours at room
>> temperature, which varies throughout the year and so I vary the
>> starter amount and also initial ingredient temperatures to compensate.
>> Final proof is usually about 2 hours, but the dough tells me when it's
>> ready.

>
> Interesting. Yes, I stopped kneading as well a while back, replacing it
> with regular folding. (Thank you, Mike Avery). I, too, work with freshly
> ground whole wheat flour.
>
> Do you usually make lean breads, or do you add other ingredients such as
> milk, butter or honey?



I usually use low fat milk as the liquid, because I find it helps
mellow out the whole wheat in terms of both texture and flavor. I
scald and cool the milk before using it, partly to denature enzymes
and partly because with a 24-hour rise time, I don't want any
organisms in there other than my starter organisms. I also make sure
that the starter I use is very active and ready to dominate the
fermentation. With only 1% starter, using it straight from the fridge
is inviting catastrophe. (I actually never put mine in the fridge
except when I go on vacation. It lives on the countertop at room
temperature and is fed every day, whether I bake with it or not. It
is always active and ready to bake.)

I do not add oil, butter, or honey to my "standard" bread, but when
I'm baking something a bit different sometimes those creep in. I have
been known to bake very rich brioche-type breads with my whole wheat
flour, which can be quite decadent. I do add ascorbic acid to any
dough made with freshly ground flour, which also helps to "age" it a
bit. (In this context, "age" means that it oxidizes the gluten
proteins, breaking off some sulfur bonds that otherwise get in the way
of the gluten molecules bonding to each other -- this according to
Emily Buehler in "Bread Science".)

When I am baking white flour bread, I usually go completely lean with
no additives -- again unless I am baking a dessert bread like cinnamon
rolls or somesuch.

--
Randall
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On 2007-08-30, Kenneth > wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:22:24 -0000, Randall Nortman
> wrote:
>
>>I mix all ingredients all at once, except for salt, which goes in 2-6
>>hours later. I do not knead per se -- a few folds along the way do
>>the trick.

>
> Hi Randall,
>
> Do you find that the salt gets sufficiently well
> distributed?


My usual practice is the flatten the bread, sprinkle half the salt
evenly over it, fold, flatten, sprinkle the rest, fold a couple more
times, then rest and fold several more times during the rise before I
divide and shape. With this procedure, I have never noticed any
pockets of undissolved salt. The long rise and high hydration also
help to ensure that it dissolves and distributes. I use kosher
(flake) salt -- my understanding is that this dissolves more easily
than normal granular salt, but I've never really tested one against
the other.

--
Randall
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Randall Nortman wrote:
> My standard loaf now uses a tiny amount of starter and a 24-hour
> fermentation. Roughly 1% of flour comes from a very active starter.
> I mix all ingredients all at once, except for salt, which goes in 2-6
> hours later.

When to add salt is one of the minor debates in bread making circles.
Calvel in "The Taste Of Bread" points out that salt acts as an
anti-oxidant and helps gluten formation. He suggests adding salt at the
beginning of the mix. I've always done so, with the exception of my
ciabatta recipe. After several years of holding back the salt, I
started adding the salt at the start of the ciabatta mix and find I like
the results better.

Mike
--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

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On Aug 29, 4:22 pm, Randall Nortman >
wrote:

> I mix all ingredients all at once, except for salt, which goes in 2-6
> hours later. I do not knead per se -- a few folds along the way do
> the trick.


I understand not salting up front if you're trying to reduce wear and
tear on a machine...
but what would be the point of deferring the salt if you're not
kneading?

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On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:46:51 -0000, Randall Nortman
> wrote:

>On 2007-08-30, Kenneth > wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:22:24 -0000, Randall Nortman
> wrote:
>>
>>>I mix all ingredients all at once, except for salt, which goes in 2-6
>>>hours later. I do not knead per se -- a few folds along the way do
>>>the trick.

>>
>> Hi Randall,
>>
>> Do you find that the salt gets sufficiently well
>> distributed?

>
>My usual practice is the flatten the bread, sprinkle half the salt
>evenly over it,


>>SNIP<<


Hi again,

Sincere thanks for your comment...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

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On 2007-08-30, Will > wrote:
> On Aug 29, 4:22 pm, Randall Nortman >
> wrote:
>
>> I mix all ingredients all at once, except for salt, which goes in 2-6
>> hours later. I do not knead per se -- a few folds along the way do
>> the trick.

>
> I understand not salting up front if you're trying to reduce wear and
> tear on a machine...
> but what would be the point of deferring the salt if you're not
> kneading?


Firstly, salt inhibits yeast and bacteria. Since I am using a very
small inoculum of starter, I want it to get a running start, so
delaying the addition of salt helps in that regard.

Secondly, there is some fuzzy science regarding how salt affects
protein bonds in gluten. There are several different types of bonds
between gluten proteins -- some of them are helped by salt and some
are inhibited. Since I am using freshly ground flour, I really want
to give it a chance to fully hydrate, and also a chance for the
ascorbic acid to oxidize the proteins and therefore allow them to form
some stronger bonds before I add the salt, which would otherwise
inhibit these bonds. Once the salt is in, those bonds largely persist
but new bonds are also encouraged.

As I said, the science on that is fuzzy, my understanding of it when I
read it was fuzzier, and my recollection of it is fuzzier still. I
got most of that from one of my favorite bread books, "Bread Science"
by Emily Buehler (which I also referenced in my previous post). All I
know is that it is not hard to do, it is unlikely to hurt, and it
might just help. I have to do those folds later on anyway; I might as
well add salt as I do them. I would not hesitate to add the salt
right from the start if my schedule demanded it.

--
Randall
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Default Amount of starter and rise times

On 30 Aug 2007, at 17:40, Randall Nortman wrote:

> Firstly, salt inhibits yeast and bacteria. Since I am using a very
> small inoculum of starter, I want it to get a running start, so
> delaying the addition of salt helps in that regard.


Hi Randall,

I used to hold the salt back not for the above reason but because I
thought that's what you had to do with autolyse. But I did have a
problem getting the salt distributed even when I used table salt
rather than course rock or sea salt. Now I don't bother. I've been
using a small amount of starter since Kenneth inspired me to do some
experiments. I have great bread that way, it's no better than when I
use a shorter cycle but it is more reliable if you're a bit relaxed
with timing. Incidentally if I am strict with timing the extended
rise fits perfectly with the formula which makes me think the salt
has no effect. At leas no more of an effect than when used with a
large inoculation, which makes sense because why would the salt
affect 20 million bacteria more than the exact same concentration of
salt for 2000 million etc.?

Jim
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Default Scald milk


"Trix" > wrote in message
ups.com...

>
> info on real milk: http://www.realmilk.com/
>

The Weston Price Foundation a trusted source? I think not!!
Graham




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>
> The Weston Price Foundation a trusted source? I think not!!
> Graham


To each, his own. I use what I want and disregard the rest...I can
take it all.....with a grain of salt. I have gotten some good info
from WAPF sources.

The raw milk I get sours after about 2.5 weeks. It smells sour....but
not putrid like store bought milk would. The raw milk smells a bit
more like buttermilk or sour cream. I can use the soured milk in
other recipes...waffles...cakes...etc.

Lucy


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