The bottoms and lower sides of my sourdough boules are beautiful -
clear and bright orangey-brown.

The top 3/4ths of the boules are often coming out a styrated ashen
whitish color - no matter how done the loaves are. The bread tastes
great - but it sure is ugly. What is the problem?

Too much or too little steam?

Too much or too litte heat?

What do you think.

On 18 Mar 2004 16:44:11 -0800, (Tim) wrote:

>The bottoms and lower sides of my sourdough boules are beautiful -
>clear and bright orangey-brown.
>
>The top 3/4ths of the boules are often coming out a styrated ashen
>whitish color - no matter how done the loaves are. The bread tastes
>great - but it sure is ugly. What is the problem?
>
>Too much or too little steam?
>
>Too much or too litte heat?
>
>What do you think.

Howdy,

What sort of oven are you using?

I ask because my suspicion would be that you are not getting enough
heat (specifically from the top.) If you are baking in an electric
oven, you might find that the upper elements are not heating at all...

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 18 Mar 2004 at 16:44, Tim wrote:

> The bottoms and lower sides of my sourdough boules are beautiful -
> clear and bright orangey-brown.
>
> The top 3/4ths of the boules are often coming out a styrated ashen
> whitish color - no matter how done the loaves are. The bread tastes
> great - but it sure is ugly. What is the problem?

Usually this is due to too long a fermentation, or rise. Some breads
are more prone to the problem than others. One recipe I have is very,
very finicky.

The easy answer is to add a small amount of barley malt extract to the
dough. Many flours are malted for this reason. Don't use malted milk
powder, use brewers malt. You can get it at a home-brew supply
house, or at some health food stores. The powder is easier to handle
than the liquid (which is more like tar or super-thick molasses than a
regular liquid).

Mike
--
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ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
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"Mike Avery" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.67.1079666174.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...

> On 18 Mar 2004 at 16:44, Tim wrote:

> > ... The top 3/4ths of the boules are often coming out a styrated =
ashen
> > whitish color ... (tops only)

> Usually this is due to too long a fermentation, or rise ...The easy =
answer=20
> is to add a small amount of barley malt extract to the dough. Many =
flours=20
> are malted for this reason ... use brewers malt ...

Is brewers' malt diastatic?? I didn't think so. Malt for bread flours =
is, or
so it is, I think. =20

What the heck does a striated, whitish, ashen loaf top look like, =
anyway?

Why should only the loaf tops be affected? (Were they couched and =
flopped?)

Still confused, here.

---
DickA

Tim wrote:
>
> The bottoms and lower sides of my sourdough boules are beautiful -
> clear and bright orangey-brown.
>
> The top 3/4ths of the boules are often coming out a styrated ashen
> whitish color - no matter how done the loaves are. The bread tastes
> great - but it sure is ugly. What is the problem?
>
> Too much or too little steam?
>
> Too much or too litte heat?
>
> What do you think.

Mike mentioned it - flour/fermentation issue

If sugars are depleted through fermentation (can happen easily with fine
white flour), loafs look pale.

Bread flours often have malted barley flour added. The (white) flour I
currently use doesn't, so I add a "pinch" of malted barley flour (bought
1 lb of six row barley from a brewer's supply store and milled it). I
haven't had browning problems since.

Amount is minuscule - I think 1/10 % i. e. 1 g on 1000 g flour, using
too much is not good.

ok, that's correct, here it is:

http://samartha.net/SD/images/BYDATE/02-08-14/

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

Mike,

Thanks for your help. I'm sure you have hit the nail on the head. I
think the starter itself was overproofed before I mixed. This has
been an ongoing issue, so I need to adjust my bread-making schedule.
I've heard of people using malt - I'll give it a try.

Tim

Kenneth,

Thanks for the response. I am getting heat from the top. It doesn't
brown no matter how much I over-cook it. I think Mike identified what
is going on. Thanks for responding.

Tim

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:50:49 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Tim wrote:
>>
>> The bottoms and lower sides of my sourdough boules are beautiful -
>> clear and bright orangey-brown.
>>
>> The top 3/4ths of the boules are often coming out a styrated ashen
>> whitish color - no matter how done the loaves are. The bread tastes
>> great - but it sure is ugly. What is the problem?
>>
>> Too much or too little steam?
>>
>> Too much or too litte heat?
>>
>> What do you think.
>
>Mike mentioned it - flour/fermentation issue
>
>If sugars are depleted through fermentation (can happen easily with fine
>white flour), loafs look pale.
>
>Bread flours often have malted barley flour added. The (white) flour I
>currently use doesn't, so I add a "pinch" of malted barley flour (bought
>1 lb of six row barley from a brewer's supply store and milled it). I
>haven't had browning problems since.
>
>Amount is minuscule - I think 1/10 % i. e. 1 g on 1000 g flour, using
>too much is not good.
>
>ok, that's correct, here it is:
>
>http://samartha.net/SD/images/BYDATE/02-08-14/
>
>Samartha

Howdy,

I have seen the pale bread from low sugars problem, but when I have
had that happen, the whole loaf is that pale yellow color.

If that is the reason for the problem, why would Tim be seeing it only
at the top?

Thanks for your comments,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 19 Mar 2004 at 17:23, Dick Adams wrote:
> "Mike Avery" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.67.1079666174.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com..

> > Usually this is due to too long a fermentation, or rise ...The easy
> > answer is to add a small amount of barley malt extract to the dough.
> > Many flours are malted for this reason ... use brewers malt ...

> Is brewers' malt diastatic?? I didn't think so. Malt for bread
> flours is, or so it is, I think.

Some are, some aren't. Until fairly recently only liquid malt extracts
were diastatic, but newer dry malts can be diastatic too. I think the one
I am using is diastatic.

> What the heck does a striated, whitish, ashen loaf top look like,
> anyway?

The loaf I have problems with looks like a low grade concrete.

> Why should only the loaf tops be affected? (Were they couched and
> flopped?)

Can't comment on the OP's loaves, but most of mine are pan loaves,
and the pans are oiled, so it is possible the greater exposure to air has
something to do with it. But that is just speculation.

Mike
--
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ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
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"Mike Avery" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.68.1079748476.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...
=20
> > What the heck does a striated, whitish, ashen loaf top look like,
> > anyway?

> The loaf I have problems with looks like a low grade concrete.

Bake with a big hookeye embedded and you'll have a fine boat anchor.
=20
> > Why should only the loaf tops be affected? =20
=20
> Can't comment on the OP's loaves ... just speculation.

Me too, nor OP's questions either, with relevance, anyway. But
here is a case to consider lighting -- maybe cool daylight more or
less from overhead, but through a venetian blind? Or, otherwise,
maybe a loaf which has been put to cool under some sort of a grate,
under the condition of flyash precipitation.

Mine have striations, sometimes in two shades of ashen, depending
on how sour (how much sugar depletion). That is because of simple
artwork done with an esoteric french implement (lamme de rasoir),
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...s%5Floaves.jpg
for instance, but not so ashen here (single rise, not much sugar =
depletion.)

Here are some that rose longer (twice) that did not bake so brown, but
maybe not too ashen, in this case, and a bit difficult to interpret due =
to
poppy-seededness:
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...%5F3-03-04.jpg

---
DickA

Tim,

I've read the other responses and tend to agree that a little diastatic malt
seems to help. Some flours already include it.

In my electric oven, steam improves the color of the bread, dramatically.

The link below that was posted a couple months back shows two loaves. The one
on the left is what I think of as ashen, concrete looking crust. It was baked
with NO STEAM. Is that what you are getting??

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/S...amNoSteam.html

With my oven, spritzing walls or putting a tepid bowl of water in the corner
will not produced enough steam. Some people put a hot frying pan above the
loaf, some below, and some use the old standard pressure cooker copper tubing
injection method.

Ed Bechtel

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message =
...

> In my electric oven, steam improves the color of the bread, =
dramatically.

Never touch the stuff. Well, hardly ever, and that would hardly be =
steam.

But perhaps there is some moisture in my gas oven due to combustion.

My take is that the sourer the loaf has become, the paler it will seem.
(The longer it rises, the sourer it will be.)

Ed's photos seem to equate cloched-baked with steamed.

One thing should be said, however, in defense of the steam --> brown
crust theory. My loaves are glistening moist when they go into the oven
which is to say, no couching and flopping. Usual they are baked from a
cold start (environmental consciousness) and on a tray, not a stone =
(pursuit
of simplicity).

http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/

Bread does not have cavernous holes, however, nor translucent web. In
fact, it is quite low in hydration (<60%). (That is why the loaves do =
not
spread more.)

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com

Hi Kenneth,

I don't know the answer to why do loafs get browned irregularly - if
they do so?
There is probably a ton of reasons for things like that to happen.

Kenneth wrote:

> I have seen the pale bread from low sugars problem, but when I have
> had that happen, the whole loaf is that pale yellow color.

See, I never had the yellow, mine was more ash-grey. There are
variations in paling and coloring, so it seems.

Did you put yours in the fridge? I suspect this could cause some
yellowing.

> If that is the reason for the problem, why would Tim be seeing it only
> at the top?

I don't think there is enough information available to make a qualified
evaluation exactly why what is happening with Tim's loafs. Could be many
different reasons. He mentioned he used an overripe starter and any
amount of heat would not get it brown that's definitely an indication
for depletion. Cause for irregular browning - heat conduction variations
in the loaf, irregular fermentation, variations of fermentation
continuing during baking, varying steam escape through crust based on
steam pressure and loaf shape. Not to forget the spooks turning some
knobs. If you imagine all the car alarms failing in Las Vegas recently,
what that kind of thing could do to a depleted loaf in the oven -
unthinkable consequences! Asking further questions like that could get
you really in trouble. Just be happy that there is a slight variation in
coloring and maybe it's possible to live with it and be safe?

Ok?

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message =
...

> [ ... ] (humongous deletion)

> Asking further questions like that could get you really in trouble.

Trying to figure out what the nOObies are thinking/doing is hopeless.

Just forget it.

That is my recommendation!

Well, send them to the FAQs. They could stall there for years.

Maybe your web site. Either they can figure out, or they can not.

Whatever will be will be.

Jesus loves you.

---
DickA

(Tim) wrote in message . com>...
> The bottoms and lower sides of my sourdough boules are beautiful -
> clear and bright orangey-brown.
>
> The top 3/4ths of the boules are often coming out a styrated ashen
> whitish color - no matter how done the loaves are. The bread tastes
> great - but it sure is ugly. What is the problem?
>
> Too much or too little steam?
>
> Too much or too litte heat?
>
> What do you think.

Tim its pretty strange for a dough that has insufficient residual
sugars to have only a pale crust on top only while the rest of the
loaf are properly coloured..
If should be that all of the bread should exhibit the same ‘anemic'
appearance if the lack of residual sugar is the main fault.
I seem to agree with Kenneth's comment that it is an oven problem.The
top heat temperature is slightly lower than normal.
I had the same problem with bakery oven previously. I baked a whole
lot of bloomers and I notice that the bottom and the sides are
properly coloured by the top is pale looking.
Baking other batch of bread produced the same result.
How about yours , have you baked other products and it still produce
the consistent fault?
Then if it is , then you really have to look what is going on with
your oven.
Going back to my bakery problem:
I asked the oven technician to check it out,,he found out (
afterwards when the oven was cool )that there was a defect with the
heating element assembly( in the top coils)

..Indeed( when the oven was in baking operation before) I can still
feel the top heat by hand but I am only feeling it from the oven door.
So I can claim that there is nothing wrong with the oven.
But the technical person found a fault and later repaired it.
Now in your case there are other factors that can contribute to such
unevenness:
BTW this is a common occurrence with house hold ovens. Not only in
breads but also in cakes.
..Supposing the distance between the top and bottom element is great
enough to result in such baking descripancy; how about raising the
oven rack a notch above, so that the entire loaf could have a balanced
heat intake from both the top and bottom heat.
This had worked in many cases by changing the height of the position
where the item to be baked is placed.
This might solve your problem.

Roy

Roy Basan wrote:

>Tim its pretty strange for a dough that has insufficient residualsugars to have only a pale crust on top only while the rest of the
>loaf are properly coloured..
>If should be that all of the bread should exhibit the same ‘anemic'
>appearance if the lack of residual sugar is the main fault.
>I seem to agree with Kenneth's comment that it is an oven problem.The
>top heat temperature is slightly lower than normal.
>
>
Well.... my experience with a bread that is very sensitive to
over-fermenting was very simular to Tim's. The top is ashen gray, the
sides and bottom are normal colored.

The oven, a Reed revolver oven with 12 pan capacity, produces many other
nice loaves at the same time as the loaves in question are ashen..... as
a result of this discussion, I've finally decided to add some malt to
the recipe... I'll find out what happens in the next bake. Tuesday, if
memory serves.

Due to customer demand, most of my breads are pan breads, so I can't
comment upon that bread as a boule or batard.

Mike

Roy Basan wrote:

> > I seem to agree with Kenneth's comment that it is an oven =
problem.The
> > top heat temperature is slightly lower than normal.

Mike Avery replied:

> Well.... my experience with a bread that is very sensitive to=20
> over-fermenting was very similar to Tim's. The top is ashen gray, the=20
> sides and bottom are normal colored.

My conjectu

Convective air currents around baking loaves may constrain and focus
vapors emerging from the loaves, under some circumstances, in such
a manner that the tops are preferentially cooled as the result of =
evaporation.

Mike went on:

> Due to customer demand, most of my breads are pan breads, so I can't=20
> comment upon that bread as a boule or batard.

If the crown of the loaf emerges fully from the pan, I'd expect that the =

probability of good browning would be better than it would be for the =
case
where it did not so emerge. That thought evolves from attempts to =
imagine
the convective currents in the vicinity of the pan.

I see the effect rather clearly in a bread machine where the pan is =
taller than
the typical loaves. The result is dimpling of the top surface with the =
larger
holes in the loaf under the dimple. One could move from there (theory =
of crashing crust) to the theory of the flying crust. But won't on this
occasion. Please see:=20
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...e/WWslice2.jpg

(Don't ask how that is relevant -- it is a huge quantum leap from ashen
sourdough boules, batards, etc., so I must beg your pardon I suspect.)
Anyway, I am faced with very limited customer demand, so have time to
speculate wildly.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

On 20 Mar 2004 at 20:11, Mike Avery wrote:

> ..... as a result of this discussion, I've finally decided to add some
> malt to the recipe... I'll find out what happens in the next bake.
> Tuesday, if memory serves.

It's not clear what made the difference. In one set of changes, I added
more starter to the recipe, decreased the amount of water, and added
some malt.

The loaf rose nicely (the loaf in question has a large amount of gluten
destroying seeds, and it's a real pain to get it rise at all... the seeds are
added at the end of the kneading period), had a nice shape, and
browned nicely.

My feeling is the rise and shape were due to the starter/liquid
adjustments, the crust color largely due to the addition of a small
amount of malt powder.

Mike
--
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ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
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"Mike Avery" > wrote in message news:<mailman.4.1080096905.229.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com>...
> On 20 Mar 2004 at 20:11, Mike Avery wrote:
>
> > ..... as a result of this discussion, I've finally decided to add some
> > malt to the recipe... I'll find out what happens in the next bake.
> > Tuesday, if memory serves.
>
> It's not clear what made the difference. In one set of changes, I added
> more starter to the recipe, decreased the amount of water, and added
> some malt.
>
> The loaf rose nicely (the loaf in question has a large amount of gluten
> destroying seeds, and it's a real pain to get it rise at all... the seeds are
> added at the end of the kneading period), had a nice shape, and
> browned nicely.
>
> My feeling is the rise and shape were due to the starter/liquid
> adjustments, the crust color largely due to the addition of a small
> amount of malt powder.

You applied the right conditions Mike.
If you reduce the liquid the dough will have better stability and tend
to rise higher. Meanwhile,
Incraesing the starter( is just like increasing the sponge or biga in
the yeast dough), it will enable the dough to increase the
fermentative activity and that can contribute to improvement in volume
in lesser time.
That is a wise thing to do as you are using a ballast material in the
form of seeds. A faster fermentation/proofing rate is preferable in
such conditions.
But the question remains is the defect of the pale crust and properly
coloured sides a fault due to low residual sugars or defective oven.
I just hope that Tim had done more trials and check out if its the
dough or the oven causing the bread fault.
Roy