Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Phil
 
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Hi,

I've been baking for a while and have recently decided to make a foray
into Sourdough making sourdough bread. Well, a grocery store in my
town makes the best san francisco sourdough you've ever tasted (I live
in the bay area). I was talking to the baker today, and asked him if
he would be willing to share some starter with me. He said he would,
and gave me about a softball sized lump of sour smelling stuff
resembling bread dough almost. It is not smooth or runny at all. I'm
wondering...what is the difference between this "starter" and the
smooth creamy stuff I see pictures of on people's websites? Is this
just a ready made sponge, or what?


Also, should I feed this "starter" just like any other starter? The
baker recommended 1 cup water to 1 cup unbleached white flour...what
if I were to feed it 1/2 cup water and 1/2 cup flour? Would it just be
less "food"? Any other suggestions you have would be highly
appreciated!


Please excuse my ignorance. I'm just getting into sourdough, and want
to learn as much as I can.
Thanks for your time!
  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Mailman
 
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Phil wrote:
>
> ... He said he would,
> and gave me about a softball sized lump of sour smelling stuff
> resembling bread dough almost. It is not smooth or runny at all. I'm
> wondering...what is the difference between this "starter" and the
> smooth creamy stuff I see pictures of on people's websites?


Take a couple tablespoons, add water to thin it out, should be the
consistency of pancake batter. Let sit until it activates fully and
feed.

> Also, should I feed this "starter" just like any other starter?


Yes.

> The baker recommended 1 cup water to 1 cup unbleached white flour...what
> if I were to feed it 1/2 cup water and 1/2 cup flour?


Means you don't have excess starter, is all.

B/
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Dick Adams
 
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"Phil" > wrote in message =
om...

> ... Baker ... gave me about a softball sized lump of sour smelling=20
> stuff resembling bread dough almost ... should I feed this "starter"=20
> just like any other starter? ... Please excuse my ignorance. I'm=20
> just getting into sourdough, and want to learn as much as I can.


Try the links on the Welcome Message for getting started. =20
It just went by a couple of days ago and should still be on your server.

Since you say it smells sour, it is probably more like a "chef"=20
( =3D firm storage culture ) than a "sponge". You could keep it in
the fridge until you have figured out how you are going to proceed.
You need only a small portion of it to start your own culture.

But frankly, "Phil Yuk-Yuk", if that is the best thing you can come
up with for a nomme de plume, you are probably much too silly to
settle down to seriously study sourdough. But, heck, maybe you=20
can cook up some rapport with our "Bob Spam-Spam", or our=20
other soap-box newbies, who are chaffing at the bit to advise=20
the more nascent and nubile newbies on the finer points of=20
startermuckery. There is also one here named "Ignoramus" who
may be entirely comfortable with your professed ignorance.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com






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Kenneth
 
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On 3 Dec 2003 17:29:37 -0800, (Phil) wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I've been baking for a while and have recently decided to make a foray
>into Sourdough making sourdough bread. Well, a grocery store in my
>town makes the best san francisco sourdough you've ever tasted (I live
>in the bay area). I was talking to the baker today, and asked him if
>he would be willing to share some starter with me. He said he would,
>and gave me about a softball sized lump of sour smelling stuff
>resembling bread dough almost. It is not smooth or runny at all. I'm
>wondering...what is the difference between this "starter" and the
>smooth creamy stuff I see pictures of on people's websites? Is this
>just a ready made sponge, or what?
>
>
>Also, should I feed this "starter" just like any other starter? The
>baker recommended 1 cup water to 1 cup unbleached white flour...what
>if I were to feed it 1/2 cup water and 1/2 cup flour? Would it just be
>less "food"? Any other suggestions you have would be highly
>appreciated!
>
>
>Please excuse my ignorance. I'm just getting into sourdough, and want
>to learn as much as I can.
>Thanks for your time!


Hi Phil,

The water content of the starter does matter. Rather than thinning
what you have to the more familiar batter-like consistency, I would
suggest that you feed it, while preserving its firm character.

Just take a piece of the starter you have about the size of a walnut
(the French would call what you have the "chef") and mix into it a few
tablespoons of water and flour. Add enough flour to make a "dough
ball" of about the consistency that you now have. You should try to
feed enough to roughly double the weight of the walnut-sized ball.

Knead it together a bit, and put it aside. You can either "slow it
down" by refrigerating it, or you can get it ready for baking by
keeping it at a warmer temperature until you are ready to bake.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
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Phil
 
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"Dick Adams" > wrote in message >...
> But frankly, "Phil Yuk-Yuk", if that is the best thing you can come
> up with for a nomme de plume, you are probably much too silly to
> settle down to seriously study sourdough. But, heck, maybe you
> can cook up some rapport with our "Bob Spam-Spam", or our
> other soap-box newbies, who are chaffing at the bit to advise
> the more nascent and nubile newbies on the finer points of
> startermuckery. There is also one here named "Ignoramus" who
> may be entirely comfortable with your professed ignorance.


Yuk7yuk7 is my junk mail address. It's just a name yahoo spit out when
I put something else in while registering for an account years ago.
So, I give it to marketeers, etc. when I don't want my inbox full of
spam.

Judging from the last paragraph of your message, you must be one
insecure dude. And frankly, you come off like a jerk.


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Phil
 
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Thanks Ken, I already did exactly what you said...save for the last
part about adding more flour. I basically used a teaspoon of the
"chef" and mixed it in with 1/4 cup of water and 1/4 cup of flour. It
is sitting covered now.

Thanks again to everyone who responded.

Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> On 3 Dec 2003 17:29:37 -0800, (Phil) wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >I've been baking for a while and have recently decided to make a foray
> >into Sourdough making sourdough bread. Well, a grocery store in my
> >town makes the best san francisco sourdough you've ever tasted (I live
> >in the bay area). I was talking to the baker today, and asked him if
> >he would be willing to share some starter with me. He said he would,
> >and gave me about a softball sized lump of sour smelling stuff
> >resembling bread dough almost. It is not smooth or runny at all. I'm
> >wondering...what is the difference between this "starter" and the
> >smooth creamy stuff I see pictures of on people's websites? Is this
> >just a ready made sponge, or what?
> >
> >
> >Also, should I feed this "starter" just like any other starter? The
> >baker recommended 1 cup water to 1 cup unbleached white flour...what
> >if I were to feed it 1/2 cup water and 1/2 cup flour? Would it just be
> >less "food"? Any other suggestions you have would be highly
> >appreciated!
> >
> >
> >Please excuse my ignorance. I'm just getting into sourdough, and want
> >to learn as much as I can.
> >Thanks for your time!

>
> Hi Phil,
>
> The water content of the starter does matter. Rather than thinning
> what you have to the more familiar batter-like consistency, I would
> suggest that you feed it, while preserving its firm character.
>
> Just take a piece of the starter you have about the size of a walnut
> (the French would call what you have the "chef") and mix into it a few
> tablespoons of water and flour. Add enough flour to make a "dough
> ball" of about the consistency that you now have. You should try to
> feed enough to roughly double the weight of the walnut-sized ball.
>
> Knead it together a bit, and put it aside. You can either "slow it
> down" by refrigerating it, or you can get it ready for baking by
> keeping it at a warmer temperature until you are ready to bake.
>
> HTH,

  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Anton S.
 
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Default What do I do with this?

I'm curious as to how the water content matters?

I thought it basically controls the speed of the growth/fermentation
of yeast. What else does it effect?


Anton

> Hi Phil,
>
> The water content of the starter does matter. Rather than thinning
> what you have to the more familiar batter-like consistency, I would
> suggest that you feed it, while preserving its firm character.
>
>

  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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Default What do I do with this?

On 4 Dec 2003 14:43:42 -0800, (Phil) wrote:

>Thanks Ken, I already did exactly what you said...save for the last
>part about adding more flour. I basically used a teaspoon of the
>"chef" and mixed it in with 1/4 cup of water and 1/4 cup of flour. It
>is sitting covered now.
>
>Thanks again to everyone who responded.
>
>Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
>> On 3 Dec 2003 17:29:37 -0800,
(Phil) wrote:
>>
>> >Hi,
>> >
>> >I've been baking for a while and have recently decided to make a foray
>> >into Sourdough making sourdough bread. Well, a grocery store in my
>> >town makes the best san francisco sourdough you've ever tasted (I live
>> >in the bay area). I was talking to the baker today, and asked him if
>> >he would be willing to share some starter with me. He said he would,
>> >and gave me about a softball sized lump of sour smelling stuff
>> >resembling bread dough almost. It is not smooth or runny at all. I'm
>> >wondering...what is the difference between this "starter" and the
>> >smooth creamy stuff I see pictures of on people's websites? Is this
>> >just a ready made sponge, or what?
>> >
>> >
>> >Also, should I feed this "starter" just like any other starter? The
>> >baker recommended 1 cup water to 1 cup unbleached white flour...what
>> >if I were to feed it 1/2 cup water and 1/2 cup flour? Would it just be
>> >less "food"? Any other suggestions you have would be highly
>> >appreciated!
>> >
>> >
>> >Please excuse my ignorance. I'm just getting into sourdough, and want
>> >to learn as much as I can.
>> >Thanks for your time!

>>
>> Hi Phil,
>>
>> The water content of the starter does matter. Rather than thinning
>> what you have to the more familiar batter-like consistency, I would
>> suggest that you feed it, while preserving its firm character.
>>
>> Just take a piece of the starter you have about the size of a walnut
>> (the French would call what you have the "chef") and mix into it a few
>> tablespoons of water and flour. Add enough flour to make a "dough
>> ball" of about the consistency that you now have. You should try to
>> feed enough to roughly double the weight of the walnut-sized ball.
>>
>> Knead it together a bit, and put it aside. You can either "slow it
>> down" by refrigerating it, or you can get it ready for baking by
>> keeping it at a warmer temperature until you are ready to bake.
>>
>> HTH,


Hi Phil,

I hope that I was clear in my comments about the texture of the chef.
I did not want to suggest that if you thin it out something terrible
will happen. It is just that (for reasons that I don't understand)
there are some differences in the results depending on the hydration
at which the starter is maintained...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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Default What do I do with this?


"Phil" > wrote in message =
om...

> Yuk7yuk7 is my junk mail address. It's just a name yahoo spit out=20
> when I put something else in while registering for an account=20
> years ago. So, I give it to marketeers, etc. when I don't want=20
> my inbox full of spam.


The point of providing current and valid email information is to=20
make yourself available to receive information which may be=20
too trivial for posting to the newsgroup, or otherwise not of=20
general interest.

One purpose of using a unique identifier is to identify your posts
in the archives. For instance, there are about 350 posts by "Phil"
in the r.f.s. archive at Google. Of course, the Yuk-Yuk thing=20
makes you unique unless grow clever enough to devise a way to=20
divest yourself of it.

> Judging from the last paragraph of your message, you must=20
> be one insecure dude ...


Jeez, NE more consulting psychiatrist, just what we need!

I guess you did not find the Welcome Message. Well, from that, you
might possibly have found the following links about starters, relating =
to
your subject-line question:
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howshoul...tarterfor.html
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-gro...rdough/starte=
rs
There was also a link to some "Newcomer Tips" and a guide to the r.f.s.
FAQs.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com





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Dick Adams
 
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"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On 4 Dec 2003 14:43:42 -0800, (Phil) wrote:
>
> >Thanks Ken, I already did exactly what you said...save for the last
> >part about adding more flour. I basically used a teaspoon of the
> >"chef" and mixed it in with 1/4 cup of water and 1/4 cup of flour. It
> >is sitting covered now.
> >
> >Thanks again to everyone who responded.
> >
> >Kenneth > wrote in message

>. ..
> >> On 3 Dec 2003 17:29:37 -0800,
(Phil) wrote:
> >>
> >> >Hi,
> >> >
> >> >I've been baking for a while and have recently decided to make a foray
> >> >into Sourdough making sourdough bread. Well, a grocery store in my
> >> >town makes the best san francisco sourdough you've ever tasted (I live
> >> >in the bay area). I was talking to the baker today, and asked him if
> >> >he would be willing to share some starter with me. He said he would,
> >> >and gave me about a softball sized lump of sour smelling stuff
> >> >resembling bread dough almost. It is not smooth or runny at all. I'm
> >> >wondering...what is the difference between this "starter" and the
> >> >smooth creamy stuff I see pictures of on people's websites? Is this
> >> >just a ready made sponge, or what?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Also, should I feed this "starter" just like any other starter? The
> >> >baker recommended 1 cup water to 1 cup unbleached white flour...what
> >> >if I were to feed it 1/2 cup water and 1/2 cup flour? Would it just be
> >> >less "food"? Any other suggestions you have would be highly
> >> >appreciated!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Please excuse my ignorance. I'm just getting into sourdough, and want
> >> >to learn as much as I can.
> >> >Thanks for your time!
> >>
> >> Hi Phil,
> >>
> >> The water content of the starter does matter. Rather than thinning
> >> what you have to the more familiar batter-like consistency, I would
> >> suggest that you feed it, while preserving its firm character.
> >>
> >> Just take a piece of the starter you have about the size of a walnut
> >> (the French would call what you have the "chef") and mix into it a few
> >> tablespoons of water and flour. Add enough flour to make a "dough
> >> ball" of about the consistency that you now have. You should try to
> >> feed enough to roughly double the weight of the walnut-sized ball.
> >>
> >> Knead it together a bit, and put it aside. You can either "slow it
> >> down" by refrigerating it, or you can get it ready for baking by
> >> keeping it at a warmer temperature until you are ready to bake.
> >>
> >> HTH,

>
> Hi Phil,
>
> I hope that I was clear in my comments about the texture of the chef.
> I did not want to suggest that if you thin it out something terrible
> will happen. It is just that (for reasons that I don't understand)
> there are some differences in the results depending on the hydration
> at which the starter is maintained...
>
> All the best,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


Yes, it is clear that there are differences. I am glad that this is all
cleared up now. Hydration must be respected!

--
DickA

P.S. Exactly what is meant by "hydration"?

: )

  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
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Default What do I do with this?



Dick Adams wrote:

> P.S. Exactly what is meant by "hydration"?


What is Hydration? Well, hydration is a discussion artifact. It
has little to do with actual bread making by actual people who
actually bake bread.

Before the invention of hydration as a discussion artifact,
bread dough was categorized as firm, medium, soft, and slack.
For those who felt they needed more categories or finer
distinctions, you could add modifiers and get terms like extra
firm or very slack. English is such a versatile language.

Enter now people who are not necessarily bakers of bread, but
those who are not comfortable without cloaking simple things with
more scientific terminology, various timid souls who crave
precision, and those who just love to argue about this and that.
To serve that motley constituency, the artifact of conversation,
hydration, was invented. Hydration was defined as the percentage
of the weight of water in a dough as related to the weight of
flour in the dough. Ostensibly, it was supposed to give a more
precise indication of the viscosity of the dough and facilitate
scientific discussion of the subject. That is just plain
nonsense in the real world as I will describe.

When you deal with the problem of dough viscosity when the flour
is measured by volume, the biggest factor is how the flour is
handled. That is, is the flour fluffed, scooped, packed, etc.
into the measure. It is certainly not the amount of moisture in
the flour that may vary with ambient humidity. When you use
weight to try to get a more scientific way to describe dough
viscosity, you might think that "hydration percentage" would be a
more accurate descriptor than the English terms. You would be
wrong.

You can prove it to your self in your very own kitchen. Get
yourself a bag of soft biscuit flour, some run of the mill all
purpose flour, and some high protein hard wheat bread flour. Get
out your scale. weigh out portions of flour and water with the
three flours to make doughs of , say, ahem, 65% hydration. Stir
up the doughs. You will find that there are great differences in
the viscosity of the different doughs because of the way various
flours adsorb water. Differences that can be described with
English terminology, and lost with the 65% "hydration"
descriptor.

Now that you have proven how useless hydration is to communicate
dough viscosity, you can understand how totally useless the
discussions of freeze drying or baking flour to get a more
accurate Hydration percentage can be. The greater factor is the
absorption of water by the protein and starch in the flour, not
the absolute amount of water.

Not to say that finding the amount of water held in a bag of
flour is not an interesting experiment, it is just not anything
that you or I can use when mixing up a batch of pan bread. It is
a great aid to people who want to talk or argue about bread
rather than baking it.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
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Dick Adams
 
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"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
...

> What is Hydration? Well, hydration is a discussion artifact.


Well, don't you think that discourse, in general, is a conglomeration
of discussion artifacts?

Did you tell the most recent "Phil" how to make a fridge culture
from his doughball? A little bird told me you did that.

How can we hope that the newbies will learn to wrestle with
the FAQs and learn to mine the archived information if they are
spoon-fed the conventional sourdough wisdom by magnanimous
clandestine tutors, not to mention the long lines of newsgroup
advice givers that queue up to expound their futziness whenever
a really dumb question is asked.

> ... Hydration was defined as the percentage of the weight of
> water in a dough as related to the weight of flour in the dough.


Well, that's just ducky, but so far no one has told me how to
consider the water that was in the flour in the first place. And
it is not like I haven't asked.

> Ostensibly, it was supposed to give a more precise indication
> of the viscosity of the dough and facilitate scientific discussion
> of the subject. That is just plain nonsense in the real world ...


I have heard good things about you Charles, but of late is seems
more and more that you are becoming just another sourdough
cynic.

> When you deal with the problem of dough viscosity when the flour
> is measured by volume, the biggest factor is how the flour is
> handled. That is, is the flour fluffed, scooped, packed, etc.
> into the measure. It is certainly not the amount of moisture in
> the flour that may vary with ambient humidity.


Absorbed moisture can cause a 10% or greater error in the
perception of "hydration". Could be that 65% compounded most
conscientiously by weight, not considering moisture uptake, was
actually in the mid 70's. The error is greater than the per cent of
absorbed moisture because that needs be added in the numerator
and subtracted in the denominator.

But that is OT in this thread, because our current Phil is primarily
concerned with hydrating his doughball, which is a different problem.

> The greater factor is the absorption of water by the protein and
> starch in the flour, not the absolute amount of water.


I could neither deny nor affirm that. Measures of unqualified greatness
do elude me. (Probably the word we want is "absorption", as
"adsorption" in a superficial phenomenon.)

> Not to say that finding the amount of water held in a bag of
> flour is not an interesting experiment, it is just not anything
> that you or I can use when mixing up a batch of pan bread.


Nevertheless it is important for me to know. I need to write
down everything to the nearest gram, and if there are lots of grams
of water in the flour, to start, or later from the atmosphere, I will
wish my scientific record to reflect that accurately.

Otherwise there would nothing to do in the kitchen but bake
some bread.

--
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com




  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Pearce
 
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Default Hydration was What do I do with this?


"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...
>
> "Charles Perry" wrote in message


> > When you deal with the problem of dough viscosity when the flour
> > is measured by volume, the biggest factor is how the flour is
> > handled. That is, is the flour fluffed, scooped, packed, etc.
> > into the measure. It is certainly not the amount of moisture in
> > the flour that may vary with ambient humidity.

>
> Absorbed moisture can cause a 10% or greater error in the
> perception of "hydration". Could be that 65% compounded most
> conscientiously by weight, not considering moisture uptake, was
> actually in the mid 70's. The error is greater than the per cent of
> absorbed moisture because that needs be added in the numerator
> and subtracted in the denominator.
>


All the talk of late concerning hydration and moisture content of flour has
got me thinking. I believe that sometime in the not too distant future
someone will calculate all of the variables involved and discover that a
loaf of bread made with an extremely slack dough was in fact nothing by
water and a little salt.

My guess is that this would most likely to happen in a humid climate. I live
in Louisiana and made some bread with a slack dough today. Using my
primitive calculation method (water/flour) the bread was at about 68%, but I
wonder...

I, of course, am not smart enough to figure out something like that, but
there are some that post here who seem to be very skilled at these types of
calculations.

-Mike





  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
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Dick Adams wrote:
>
> ... but of late is seems more and more that you are becoming just another sourdough
> cynic...


I forget who first said this, but the quote comes to mind. "The
power of keen observation is often mistaken for cynisism,
especially by those who don't have it." Then, maybe I am just
practicing up to be a grumpy old man. The old seems to have come
without effort, perhaps the grumpy will too.
>
> ... I need to write
> down everything to the nearest gram, and if there are lots of grams
> of water in the flour, to start,...
>
> ...Otherwise there would nothing to do in the kitchen but bake
> some bread.
>

I remember a time when some of us did bake bread.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
ab
 
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Welcome to the Dick (dot) Adams sourdough newsgroup Phil. Please refrain
from posting anything intelligent, it offends Mr. Adams.

He's here to correct ALL our mistakes and shortcomings. He has none you
know. That's because he was born with all knowledge of sourdough, it's
makeup and proper usage. He was never a "newbie."

AB


"Phil" > wrote in message
om...

> Judging from the last paragraph of your message, you must be one
> insecure dude. And frankly, you come off like a jerk.



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