Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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Default "Crock-pot pumpernickel"

It has been shown possible to make some kind of=20
bread from soured rye glop without kneading.

My original inspiration came from=20


I simplified to=20
=
et
but got slapped down by the Pumpernickel Police
because I thought I could call the resultant loaves
by the name of Pumpernickel. Pumpernickel is=20
a bread that must be cooked for a very long time,
and I did not do that. It is also one that is naturally
and not artificially sweetened. Well, I had put
maple syrup or some stupid thing in mine.

The sweetness and the flavor of Pumpernickel
are supposed to come from enzymatic processes
which occur during long cooking at low temperature
under moist conditions. We have learned that
from Samartha. It must not contain anything but
flour (rye), maybe "schrot", salt, and water.

Do we have to go through a fancy multistage
fermentation process for bread which is going
to be baked in a pan (or form)? That is supposed
to keep the starches from breaking down, so as
to hold the bread together when the time comes
for rising. Well, if the bread is going to rise
in a pan, and not rise much, possibly not. =20

Recently I tried cooking rye glop a long time
(40 hours) in a crock pot. The result was an=20
interesting (so I thought, anyway) failu
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...e/CPPump1a.jpg

The temperature may have been ~200=B0F. There
are two settings -- I used the "low" one. An inner
container was used. Water around it did not boil=20
away in 40 hours.

It was more like a pudding than like bread. But=20
the color was very deep brown, much deeper than=20
that of a similar loaf which was baked in a hot oven=20
for 40 minutes (inset in photo).

Now, here is what is left after 5 days:
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...e/CPPump1b.jpg

The crusts are gone -- we ate them first because=20
they could be picked up. The center, part of which is=20
shown in the photo, was pasty, like dough, and could=20
not be neatly cut.

But now, after some drying and setting, it can be cut=20
like fudge.

The interesting things (I think) are the color change=20
(compare the inset in the first photo with the 2nd=20
photo) and the flavor, which is pungent sweet-sour=20
with a taste somewhat like licorice candy.

Another interesting thing is that we are eating it. =20
Though a bit difficult to get used to, it is not too
bad. Like olives, one develops a taste for it. If
I did not know it was bread, I would not be sure.

As to whether it is a Maillard-facilitated phenomenon,
I could not say. The Maillard reaction is very hard
to understand.

http://food.oregonstate.edu/color/maillard/

Anyway, I think I may be on the way to "Crock-pot
Pumpernickel". As long as I remember the quote symbols
the Pumpernickel Police must remain at bay. Maybe
I will have to get into a multi-stage dough build, but=20
first I will try a thicker glop.

Next time I find a store selling rye flour, I will continue.
The only rye flour commonly available here in Eastern
Massachusetts is Hodgkin Mill (whole grain rye flour). =20
What I used for the here-reported effort was probably=20
over a year old, which might account for part of the=20
pungency of flavor.

(Do I know that whole grain flour gets rotten? Why
yes I do. Sourdough gets rotten. So what? It is the
game we play.)

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com





  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
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"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
snip
Next time I find a store selling rye flour, I will continue.
The only rye flour commonly available here in Eastern
Massachusetts is Hodgkin Mill (whole grain rye flour).
What I used for the here-reported effort was probably
over a year old, which might account for part of the
pungency of flavor.
snip--
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

I have recently become very puzzled by the rye flour designations. I was
trying a new bread and was told that I must have "dark rye flour." I
already had organic whole rye flour from my food co-op and pumpernickle from
King Arthur on hand. I ordered Bob's Red Mill dark rye flour from the food
co-op and then later found dark rye flour in the bulk bins at a grocery
store that I sometimes frequent. Bob's dark rye flour is finer grained and
lighter in color than the grocery store dark rye. King Arthur pumpernickle
is lighter in color and finer grained than Bob's dark rye. The co-op whole
grain is darker than all, but the floury portion is much smoother than the
others but does have 'bits' in it that I assume are a bran. I have tried to
find out if there is a specific calibration or color or flour texture for
rye, but it seems that it is pretty much up to the miller. Does anyone have
any clarification on this? Or, in the long run, does it really make any
difference what rye flour we use to make bread?
Janet






  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:37:08 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>Anyway, I think I may be on the way to "Crock-pot
>Pumpernickel". As long as I remember the quote symbols
>the Pumpernickel Police must remain at bay.


You have nothing to worry about from them. Whether you quote the
phrase Crock-pot Pumpernickel or not, the Pumpernickel Police are
going to be too preoccupied with laugher to pay serious attention to
it.

I showed those pictures to my beagles and they told me that your
Crock-pot Pumpernickel looks just like baked WalMart dogfood.

  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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"Bob" > wrote in message =
...

> You have nothing to worry about from them. Whether you quote the
> phrase Crock-pot Pumpernickel or not, the Pumpernickel Police are
> going to be too preoccupied with laugher to pay serious attention to
> it ( =

)

How could you know(?), you are new! The Pumpernickel Police do not =
laugh.
They do not smile. They just do their job with utmost precision.

> I showed those pictures to my beagles and they told me that your
> Crock-pot Pumpernickel looks just like baked WalMart dogfood.


What you need is a cat. Everything looks like dogfood to dogs. Even
"Sooner dogs":
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DeFstb.65303$Ec1.3754869@bgtnsc05-n=
ews.ops.worldnet.att.net

---
DickA





  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Richard Dickson
 
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"Dick Adams" wrote:
[...]
> I simplified to
>
> but got slapped down by the Pumpernickel Police
> because I thought I could call the resultant loaves
> by the name of Pumpernickel.

[...]

Your problem was caused by your use of capital-P Pumpernickel instead
of small-p pumpernickel. It's somewhat like the difference between
'Catholic sexual preferences' vs. 'catholic sexual preferences'.
Capital-P Pumpernickel is reserved for pumpernickel made according to
the One True Way, the rituals of which you did not follow.

Please do not make the same mistake again.


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Samartha Deva
 
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Default "Crock-pot pumpernickel"

Dick Adams wrote:
<..>

> Next time I find a store selling rye flour, I will continue.
> The only rye flour commonly available here in Eastern
> Massachusetts is Hodgkin Mill (whole grain rye flour).
> What I used for the here-reported effort was probably
> over a year old, which might account for part of the
> pungency of flavor.


The flour could smell moldy and/or taste rancid, if it gets over and
your nose still works.

You could try adding some coarsely broken rye to add some more structure
and counteract the "mousse" effect, if that's what you want.

What you are doing with your fine flour reminds me of "flour glue" -
boil flour in water and it becomes glue. Maybe even full grain rye ends
up as glue when you just boil it long enough. 40 hours seems a good
starting point, maybe way into the point of disintegration.

What other uses could be found for your rye mousse? Smearing it on the
fence and repel squirrels and raccoons?

If it works, you should get it patented and get rich.

I think, the idea has potential but it should have a better, like
sliceable structure after cooling down if intended for human
consumption. For human deterrence of <insert your favorites>, the mousse
effect could be kept, refined and disguised as chocolate mousse. Maybe
light rye flour would work in that direction.

Keep up the good dark rye spirit! ;-)

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/
  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Feuer
 
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Richard Dickson wrote:
> Capital-P Pumpernickel is reserved for pumpernickel made according to
> the One True Way, the rituals of which you did not follow.


If he used coarse rye meal (I'm not clear on that), then what he was
trying to make was in fact pumpernickel. What kind of container the
bread is baked in is not what makes it pumpernickel...

David
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:06:43 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>> You have nothing to worry about from them. Whether you quote the
>> phrase Crock-pot Pumpernickel or not, the Pumpernickel Police are
>> going to be too preoccupied with laugher to pay serious attention to
>> it.


>How could you know(?), you are new!


I am not that new any more.

>The Pumpernickel Police do not laugh.
>They do not smile. They just do their job with utmost precision.


I forgot - they don't have a sense of humor, unless it is at someone
else's expense.

>> I showed those pictures to my beagles and they told me that your
>> Crock-pot Pumpernickel looks just like baked WalMart dogfood.


>What you need is a cat.


The dogs would just flatten it.


  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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"Samartha Deva" >=20
wrote in message ...

> You could try adding some coarsely broken rye to add some more=20
> structure and counteract the "mousse" effect, if that's what you=20
> want.


Just yesterday I learned that my nearby bakery supplier (Savage=20
in Waltham) has "rye chops" in 25 and 50 pound sacks. Heather may=20
be interested in that. I have bemoaned the situation that whole=20
rye is health food (at health-food prices) in eastern=20
Massachusetts. I should be able to process such things (assuming=20
they are not some kind of a vegetarian delight like tofu turkey)=20
to flour and everything in-between. And quite likely the "chops"=20
will preserve more like whole grain than like whole-grain flour.

> What you are doing with your fine flour reminds me of "flour=20
> glue" - boil flour in water and it becomes glue.


That would be white flour. Nobody wants to use ugly-looking=20
boiled rye flour as glue. Anyway, rye flour becomes glue simply=20
by adding water, as anybody who has ever attempted to clean=20
vessels used to make rye dough has sadly learned.

> What other uses could be found for your rye mousse? Smearing it=20
> on the fence and repel squirrels and raccoons?


How about a "dirty bomb"? Can you guess who will get it? (Maybe=20
one for "Cindy", too -- OT, no email address, one-name nOObie!)=20
(Takes a while to track down these idiots, but can be done.)

> If it works, you should get it patented and get rich.


My needs are modest: A loaf, a jug, and thee beside me singing in=20
the wilderness. And now these clarion notes proceed via the=20
mystical miasma, conveyed on the backs of electrons. Wealth needs=20
no longer be an objective.

> I think, the idea has potential but it should have a better,=20
> like sliceable structure after cooling down if intended for human=20
> consumption.=20


It was a shot in the dark. But it seems to have demonstrated=20
that a long, slow cook in a crock pot can considerably darken, and=20
considerably enhance the flavor of, a dense all-rye bread from a=20
loose, non-kneaded rye "dough". It is sufficient encouragement=20
to proceed.

> Keep up the good dark rye spirit! ;-)


See me now, walking on the dark side with Samartha!

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com





  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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Default "Crock-pot pumpernickel"

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:13:08 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>And now these clarion notes proceed via the
>mystical miasma, conveyed on the backs of electrons.


Actually the information is carried by the electromagnetic field
supported by those electrons. In an alternating current, which is what
electromagnetic waves amounts to, the electrons sit in one place and
wiggle back and forth. It's the electromagnetic wave that propagates.

That's why electric transmission wires are stranded. The 60 Hz
alternating electomagnetic field can penetrate a conductor only so far
(called the "skin effect" ) and therefore the metal inside the wire is
wasted. So engineers had to devise a way to increase the surface area,
and multi-strand wire was the solution.

HTH

>See me now, walking on the dark side with Samartha!


You poor wretched fellow.



  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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"Bob" > wrote in message =
...
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:13:08 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

> [ ... ]


> > And now these clarion notes proceed via the
> > mystical miasma, conveyed on the backs of electrons.


> Actually the information is carried by the electromagnetic=20
> field supported by those electrons.


< [ ... ]

It would appear that, in those cloistered towers of theoretical=20
physics, you ("Bob") have never heard of poetic license.

Frankly, "Bob", what nobody here can understand is why a=20
person such as yourself, who has allegedly "Published Original=20
Research In Solid State Physics, Quantum Mechanics, ..." is=20
not able to master digital photography to the extent of getting=20
an image of your alleged very-holey bread onto the Internet.

Even your friend Igno is starting to doubt you.

---
DickA



  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On 21 Nov 2003 17:34:48 GMT, Ignoramus15351
> wrote:

>have you baked any good bread yet? well leavened, good tasting
>sourdough bread?


Yes, and I have posted comments about my experiments. I made good
sourdough from the natural starter, the Mister Baker's starter and the
KA starter. I still have two other starters given me by posters, but I
am hesitant to try them until I have learned enough that I do not
waste them.

The last loaf was the best I ever made - it was made with my natural
starter #2 ( I threw out #1). Part of the success was due to hitting
just the right level of hydration. I want a slack dough but I want it
stiff enough that it will retain its shape after the last rising. I do
not know the exact hydration figure because I did not weight the
ingredients. But based on the volume of flour and water in the last
dough, I estimate the hydration level around 70%. I used KA bread
flour so this hydration might not be correct for AP flour. I also
knead the dough in a way that promotes high glutenization, which helps
with stiffness.

I use a manual technique to adjust hydration. Essentially I add flour
to over-hydrated thick soupy sponge to get a dough that passes the
glass tumbler test. The reason for working from the slack side is so I
can observe the dough stiffening up. If I worked from the water side,
I would have to go past the point I want so I would know that I am at
the boundary. Then I would have to add some flour back. Working from
the flour side, I add a little and knead it. I then test it with a
glass and if the dough sticks, I add some more flour. Ad nauseam.

I am going to experiment with a paper towel test next time. I will
take a small patch of ordinary paper towel and press it into the
dough. If I can take it off without it clinging to the dough, I will
have a measure of the hydration. I am expecting this test to be more
sensitive than a glass.


  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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"Ignoramus15351" > wrote,=20
presumably to "Bob", in message ...

> have you baked any good bread yet? well leavened, good tasting

sourdough bread?

Just remind old "Bob" that a picture is worth 1000 words.

Igno, I thought you would be interested in this:

Do you know what an Ignoranus is?

A stupid person who is also an asshole.

http://www.e-borneo.com/ab/posts/26202.html

Why don't you come back with something that looks
like a name, and quit decorating our newsgroup with
ostensible stupidity?

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com


  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
Posts: n/a
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:47:25 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>Frankly, "Bob", what nobody here can understand is why a=20
>person such as yourself, who has allegedly "Published Original=20
>Research In Solid State Physics, Quantum Mechanics, ..."


It's not "allegedly" - it's for real. But who cares anymore. It was a
long time ago.

>is not able to master digital photography


There's a very good reason.

After years of being an early adopter, I have become tired of being
someone else's beta test site. So now I wait until the technology is
sufficiently mature before I invest.

Although digital photography has been around a while, it is still not
mature enough for me. For example, the shutter latency is still too
long. And the prices are way too high. All I have to do is be a bit
more patient and I can capture the best for the least.

Anyway, who has time to indulge in photography when he is spending all
his spare time making sourdough?

>to the extent of getting=20
>an image of your alleged very-holey bread onto the Internet.


I do not believe I ever said it was "very-holey", only that it had
better hole formation than I had achieved before. If I did use such an
expression, then it was meant to contrast the earlier situation where
my bread was very dense, deliberately so to promote chewiness. Now I
can have a crumb with some nice little holes and it is chewy too.

As I tried to tell you, the picture on that "carls friends" website is
an exact match.

>Even your friend Igno is starting to doubt you.


I believe someone with a name similar to that plonked me a while back.

  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
HeatherInSwampscott
 
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Dick Adams wrote:

> Just yesterday I learned that my nearby bakery supplier (Savage
> in Waltham) has "rye chops" in 25 and 50 pound sacks. Heather may
> be interested in that.


Hi Dick!

Thank you for the resource, and for thinking of me. As soon as I make it
through that 5 gallon bucket of rye berries I have sitting in my kitchen
I will check them out! : -)

> See me now, walking on the dark side with Samartha!


Don't forget to drop bread crumbs behind you so you so you can find your
way back!

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom



  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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"Bob" > wrote in message =
...

> Although digital photography has been around a while, it is still not
> mature enough for me.


Digital cameras still cost more than film cameras, but film cameras are
good too. Some one pointed out that one-use cameras can be processed
to digital images which are ready for the Internet.=20

> As I tried to tell you, the picture on that "carls friends" website is
> an exact match.


You referred to =
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/jo...5Fdetails.html

I have spoken with Joan about those pictures, and I can tell you this:

Those pictures were taken with a cheap webcam -- that one was an Intel
Pocket PC Camera. Those were selling for $50 several years ago. They
have a very nice featu Using the PC as a viewer, they can be focused =

down to several inches. Color rendition is not too good, but the =
pictures are
good enough for web presentation. There are probably better and cheaper
ones today. They don't have a flash, but they don't need much light, =
either.
Usually they connect via a USB cable. (Joan has better cameras now, but
I doubt they take much better web pictures.)

The "Carlos" pictures at the CarlsFriends web site are taken with such a =

camera.

Very-good-quality digital cameras, with video viewfinders, are now =
available
for $100 or less. The photos I have posted recently are taken with a =
1.3
Megapixel digicam. For web pictures, a big Megapixel capability is not =
a
requirement. But a close-up focusing range is very desirable for bread
photos, particularly for showing the crumb structure in slices. =20

I don't suppose you are too interested in all that, but some one else =
may be.
Anyway, from what can be seen at you web site, it does appear that you =
or=20
some one in you family can take pictures for the Web. So one is =
incredulous
about your continued excuses.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com



  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 04:53:31 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>So one is incredulous about your continued excuses.


What excuses? Someone suggested a scanner, and I told them I could not
do that. Then you recommended a digital camera, and I told you I am
not interested at this time in making that kind of investment -
certainly not to post a picture of bread.

You are now recommending another approach, which I suppose I could
implement, but why? I am not trying to prove anything. Why should I
take out the time and spend the money to post a picture of bread?
Nobody but you and one other person seems interested.

Don't you trust me when I tell you that the bread I made is
essentially the same as the photo I referenced on CarlFriends website?
If you don't trust me, then I surely do not want to waste my time.


  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
HeatherInSwampscott
 
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Default OT Digital Cameras WAS: "Crock-pot pumpernickel"

Dick Adams wrote:

>But a close-up focusing range is very desirable for bread
> photos, particularly for showing the crumb structure in slices.


Yes, I agree, a good macro range is what you want to look for, moreso
than digital zoom. The camera I took my crumb photo
(http://www.fearn.ws/bread/bread4.jpg) with has a 4 cm macro. A very
good camera comparison site is: http://www.dpreview.com/

They list current models and also older models. They review in great
detail, and have a camera comparison tool that helps greatly in
narrowing what sort of camera you wish to buy. Do that first, then look
around for a used camera of the same make / model or earlier line model
and you can save a bundle of money.

I am not affiliated with this site in any way. I have used it in the
past to figure out which cameras to buy for work.

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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Default OT Digital Cameras WAS: "Crock-pot pumpernickel"

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 13:20:13 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:

>Dick Adams wrote:
>
>>But a close-up focusing range is very desirable for bread
>> photos, particularly for showing the crumb structure in slices.

>
>Yes, I agree, a good macro range is what you want to look for, moreso
>than digital zoom. The camera I took my crumb photo
>(http://www.fearn.ws/bread/bread4.jpg) with has a 4 cm macro. A very
>good camera comparison site is: http://www.dpreview.com/
>
>They list current models and also older models. They review in great
>detail, and have a camera comparison tool that helps greatly in
>narrowing what sort of camera you wish to buy. Do that first, then look
>around for a used camera of the same make / model or earlier line model
>and you can save a bundle of money.
>
>I am not affiliated with this site in any way. I have used it in the
>past to figure out which cameras to buy for work.
>
>Heather
>_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom


You guys are going to talk me into buying a camera, and I don't really
have a need for one. Next year my daughter is going to be married and
we were planning on buying a quality camera then. I hate to spend
money now when I can wait 8 months and get better quality for less
price. Maybe if I can find a cheap used one, it will get me into the
game.

Then I can email Adams all the pics he wants.

>


  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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Default OT Digital Cameras


"Bob" > wrote in message =
...

> [ ... ]


> Maybe if I can find a cheap used one, it will get me into the
> game.


Maybe you can find one in a dumpster? =20

> Then I can email Adams all the pics he wants.


I don't want you to send me pictures. Jeez, I was just=20
trying to help you gain a flyspeck of credibility. Don't you
remember when you promised (?):

"I never thought to scan the bread directly. I will do that this
evening and post the image on my website."=20

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...ws-server.hou=
ston.rr.com

But ever since you have been waffling, hiding behind the skirts=20
of your wife, and more recently those of Joan Ross, not to=20
mention your sundry other niggardly obfuscative devices.

Consider this web page:=20
http://www.cookingwithcrack.com/bread/sequence2/

It was offered by Rob Gardner who posted at r.f.s. last year,=20
and in 1999.

Why can't you be more like Rob, "Bob"?

(Well, everything but the "crack" ... )

---
DickA





  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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Default OT Digital Cameras

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:46:56 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>> Maybe if I can find a cheap used one, it will get me into the
>> game.


>Maybe you can find one in a dumpster? =20


Actually that is not cost effective.

>I was just trying to help you gain a flyspeck of credibility.


I am as credible as I am ever going to get. I do not need any help
becoming more credible.

If people don't accept what I say, then they are irrelevant.

>But ever since you have been waffling, hiding behind the skirts=20
>of your wife, and more recently those of Joan Ross, not to=20
>mention your sundry other niggardly obfuscative devices.


You are going off the deep end.

>Why can't you be more like Rob, "Bob"?


All I did was make a comment about the texture of bread, not intending
it to go anywhere. Now you have made it into some kind of obsession.

<JEEZ>

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