Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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jeff higgins
 
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Default "Another Newbie" has First Success

After the many helpful suggestions I received when I last posted, I am
happy to report some real success. I'd thought I'd share my most
recent experience in some detail to show how I got to this point.
Although I'm fairly experienced at making yeast breads, I am very,
very new to trying my hand at sourdoughs. I know I have much to learn
and that much of what follows will make that abundently clear! I'm
pretty sure that my luck was due to the bread faeries and not anything
I did! <g>

(Forgive me, in advance, once again for a rather long post.)

As mentioned in my earlier posts, I had made a wheat starter that I
hadn't been able to use successfully to produce a decent true
sourdough bread, although it was very successful in a mixed
sourdough/baker's yeast recipe. The problem I was having with the
pure sourdough was getting the starter active enough to produce proper
rise. The taste of the loaves I made was very authentically "sour,"
but the bread itself was very much a brick. For reference, the base
of this starter was the barm recipe from Reinhart's Bread Baker's
Apprentice.

Although I have ordered the Carl's starter, I wanted to try some
experiments with making a couple of my own starters from scratch.
These experiments involved both modifying my existing starter and
beginning a new rye starter using Samartha's formula from his web
site. The remainder of this post deals only with the modifications to
my original starter and the subsequent first use to bake bread.

I began by taking 4 oz. my old wheat starter and fed it with 4 oz.
each of whole rye (Arrowhead) and bottled spring water. I placed this
in a clean clear plastic covered container. I checked on this starter
hourly for the next few hours. At 3 hours, a small amount of
additional moisture began appearing on the surface. Some very, very
small imbedded bubbles (no surface bubbles) appeared after 6 hours,
but no swelling. After 9 hours, there seemed to be a little
"softening" of the starter mixture and maybe a tiny bit of swelling,
with a little bit more softening and movement after another hour.

I haven't found a way yet to maintain consistent temperatures within
the recommended 80f - 85f range. So, all of the above took place at
ambient temps ranging from 85f at the beginning down to 75f after 10
hours, with most of the time in the 80 to 82 degree range. I went to
bed at this point. In the morning (9 hours later), there was no
noticeable change in the appearance of the starter. The ambient
temperature was 66f. Two and a half hours later, the temperature had
risen to 80f, but there was no noticeable change.

At this point, I took 4oz of the starter, threw the rest away, and fed
with 4oz each whole rye (Arrowhead) and spring water. After about 2
hours at 75f, there was a slight softening and more moisture appearing
on the surface. Around 7 hours later, there were some small bubbles.
The temp had fallen to 70f. There were no further changes over the
next 3 hours, at which point I went to bed.

There was no further visable activity at all during the next 30
hours....yes, I mean 30 hours! A half hour later, however, things had
changed! There was lots of bubbling and the starter had nearly
doubled in volume. Since it was my intention to return this to more
of a wheat starter, I immediately fed it with 4oz each of stone ground
whole wheat (KA) and spring water. Four hours later, the starter had
nearly tripled and I put it in the fridge overnight.

The next day (yesterday), I took the starter out of the fridge and let
it warm up on the counter for about 3 hours at which point there was
moderate activity. I then used 4oz to make the "firm starter" for the
Basic Sourdough Bread recipe from BBA, pg. 233. I refed the
remaining starter with stone ground whole wheat (KA) and spring water
to double the weight and left out for 4 hours at which point it had
doubled in volume and I refrigerated it along with the firm starter.

Today, I finished making the above bread. I finally got the
appropriate rise and the bread is good. It's a bit more sour than I'd
like but the texture of the crumb is just right. The crust is a
little chewy but not as firm or thick as I'd like. (Next time, I'll
try leaving it in the oven...turned off and door ajar...for 10 minutes
after it finishes baking.)

Although I seem to have finally produced a viable starter, I suspect
that I haven't been feeding it as regularly as I should have.
Perhaps, this is the reason for the higher degree of sourness than I
would have preferred. I'm also considering increasing the ratio of
flour and water in the next feeding (tripling vs. doubling) to see if
I can improve this to my taste.

I'll look forward to your thoughts and suggestions. As I said above,
I have a lot to learn!




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Bob
 
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:05:25 GMT, jeff higgins
> wrote:

>At 3 hours, a small amount of
>additional moisture began appearing on the surface. Some very, very
>small imbedded bubbles (no surface bubbles) appeared after 6 hours,
>but no swelling. After 9 hours, there seemed to be a little
>"softening" of the starter mixture and maybe a tiny bit of swelling,
>with a little bit more softening and movement after another hour.


I did manage to get vigorous action initially but it took 18 hours.

>At this point, I took 4oz of the starter, threw the rest away, and fed
>with 4oz each whole rye (Arrowhead) and spring water.


This is the same stage I was at yesterday at 3:00 pm.

>After about 2
>hours at 75f, there was a slight softening and more moisture appearing
>on the surface. Around 7 hours later, there were some small bubbles.
>The temp had fallen to 70f. There were no further changes over the
>next 3 hours, at which point I went to bed.


This is the stage I am at now.

>There was no further visable activity at all during the next 30
>hours....yes, I mean 30 hours!


I had to wait 18 hours the first time, so it looks like I will have to
wait a similar period for the second round.

>A half hour later, however, things had
>changed! There was lots of bubbling and the starter had nearly
>doubled in volume.


That's what happened at 18 hours from the beginning.

It appears that our experiences match somewhat. The main difference is
that I am starting from scratch using a mix of 75% freshly-milled
organic whole wheat flour and 25% of the same rye flour you are using
(Arrowhead). Other than that we are getting about the same results.

Now I am waiting for the second round of activity to happen again -
the one which took 30 hours for you.


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Steve W
 
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* jeff higgins > 2003-10-28:
> After the many helpful suggestions I received when I last posted, I am
> happy to report some real success.


Congratulations! Sounds like you have made great progress.

> I haven't found a way yet to maintain consistent temperatures within
> the recommended 80f - 85f range.


Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking
about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more
on that another day.

> So, all of the above took place at
> ambient temps ranging from 85f at the beginning down to 75f after 10
> hours, with most of the time in the 80 to 82 degree range.


Should be fine, sourdough is not delicate. The only problem is timing.
I find that things happen about twice as fast at 85F when compared to
70F.

> I then used 4oz to make the "firm starter" for the
> Basic Sourdough Bread recipe from BBA, pg. 233.


My normal procedure is based on this recipe, I find it quite successful.

> I refed the
> remaining starter with stone ground whole wheat (KA) and spring water
> to double the weight and left out for 4 hours at which point it had
> doubled in volume and I refrigerated it along with the firm starter.


Perfect.

>
> Today, I finished making the above bread. I finally got the
> appropriate rise and the bread is good. It's a bit more sour than I'd
> like but the texture of the crumb is just right. The crust is a
> little chewy but not as firm or thick as I'd like.


Most likely not enough steam.

> Although I seem to have finally produced a viable starter, I suspect
> that I haven't been feeding it as regularly as I should have.
> Perhaps, this is the reason for the higher degree of sourness than I
> would have preferred. I'm also considering increasing the ratio of
> flour and water in the next feeding (tripling vs. doubling) to see if
> I can improve this to my taste.


Degree of sourness of the final loaf is most dependant on time and
temperature of ferment. Did you stick close to Reinhart's timing?
I typically use a primary ferment of 3.5 hours at 75F and a final rise
of 2.5 hours at 75F. Timings must be adjusted to compensate for
temperature.

Also your culture has probably not stabilized yet and will continue to
evolve over time. The more feeding cycles you put it through the faster
it will stabilize. When you get your sample of Carl's try that for
comparison.

>
> I'll look forward to your thoughts and suggestions. As I said above,
> I have a lot to learn!


The joy is in the journey. Great work!

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net
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Kenneth
 
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Default "Another Newbie" has First Success

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:03:20 GMT, Steve W >
wrote:

>Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking
>about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more
>on that another day.


Howdy,

If you need help with this, please post again. There are a number of
techniques that are easy, and inexpensive.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve W
 
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* Kenneth > 2003-10-28:
> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:03:20 GMT, Steve W >
> wrote:
>
>>Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking
>>about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more
>>on that another day.

>
> Howdy,
>
> If you need help with this, please post again. There are a number of
> techniques that are easy, and inexpensive.


Easy and inexpensive sounds good to me! I have the following parts on
hand:

- A clear plastic storage bin for main enclosure
- 12 volt DC power supply ( AC wall adapter )
- standard round Honeywell mechanical home thermostat
- 12 volt computer fan for circulation
- 110 VAC lamp fixture for heating element

I think all I need now is an appropriate relay with 12 VDC coil which
should be available cheaply at RxxxxShack, and some sort of small
enclosure for the "guts".

I have already seen discussions in earlier threads about Samartha's fish
tank heater, Dick's modified coffee pot thermostat, and your own
modified refrigerator. Good solutions all! More ideas are certainly
welcome.

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net


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Kenneth
 
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Default "Another Newbie" has First Success

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:22:52 GMT, Steve W >
wrote:

>* Kenneth > 2003-10-28:
>> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:03:20 GMT, Steve W >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking
>>>about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more
>>>on that another day.

>>
>> Howdy,
>>
>> If you need help with this, please post again. There are a number of
>> techniques that are easy, and inexpensive.

>
>Easy and inexpensive sounds good to me! I have the following parts on
>hand:
>
>- A clear plastic storage bin for main enclosure
>- 12 volt DC power supply ( AC wall adapter )
>- standard round Honeywell mechanical home thermostat
>- 12 volt computer fan for circulation
>- 110 VAC lamp fixture for heating element
>
>I think all I need now is an appropriate relay with 12 VDC coil which
>should be available cheaply at RxxxxShack, and some sort of small
>enclosure for the "guts".
>
>I have already seen discussions in earlier threads about Samartha's fish
>tank heater, Dick's modified coffee pot thermostat, and your own
>modified refrigerator. Good solutions all! More ideas are certainly
>welcome.


Hi Steve,

I think you are probably ahead of me...

I would forget about the fan, get the relay, screw in a low wattage
bulb, and turn it on and off with the thermostat. Put something above
the bulb so that the warm air coming off it will have to "go around
the barrier." With that, convection will even out the temperature
inside the box.

Have fun with it. I think you are on your way.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Samartha Deva
 
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Default "Another Newbie" has First Success

jeff higgins wrote:

> I haven't found a way yet to maintain consistent temperatures within
> the recommended 80f - 85f range.


An aquarium water heater in a tank does it very precise. If you want to
do it accurate and repeatable, it's probably the cheapest way of
regulating temperature with that precision. Also, many things can happen
- very interesting.

I maintain temperatures for growing starters and rising doughs with
that. You can see pictures on my Detmold 3-Stage starter process web
page, but you probably already have...

It depends what you want and what your general objective is. Everything
should go just fine with fluctuating temperatures, it just may take
longer when the temp is lower. You can make very good breads with that
"imprecision" ;-).

And - just a thought, where in nature is something constant? Things
always fluctuate, mostly...

And - I forgot to send this off this morning, so I do it now..

And - I have used bedlamps, low power lamps in a plastic pail - computer
tops, stove tops, garden sun, oven light (dangerous since too hot,
radiation was a problem besides overall heating, the dough in the rising
bowl next to the lamp, with oven full had one side almost cooking and
the dough going totally bananas one-sided, so I put a smaller lamp on a
cable in the bottom of the oven instead). The water with pump and heater
is great, I have two tanks now hooked up together - very stable in
temperature and when a swimming bread basket tanks because the loaf
rises uneven, things can get very exciting;-)

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/
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Darrell Greenwood
 
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[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article >, Steve W
> wrote:

> More ideas are certainly
> welcome.


In the philosophy of 'keep it simple', IMHO you don't need thermostatic
control. I used;

1 cheap styrofoam cooler or almost any container or box of suitable size
1 lamp dimmer switch
1 lamp socket with 15 watt bulb.

My setup maintained any temperature it was set to. I could never see
the thermometer vary by even 1 degree F from where I set it. (The
temperature in almost any home is thermostatically controlled, you only
want to have an offset from that temperature)

Nowadays I don't bother with it, when I want to speed things up I use
an electric self-cleaning oven (lots of insulation in those) with the
interior lamp turned on or the main element turned on for a couple of
minutes. Most of time I don't even do that but go with the ambient
temperature and adjust the time accordingly.

Cheers,

Darrell

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Janet Bostwick
 
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"Steve W" > wrote in message
...
>
> Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking
> about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more
> on that another day.
> --
> Steve W
> s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net


How curious, this came from a posting at a.b.r. today
http://members.cox.net/hebertcooking/proofing_box.htm

Janet


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Samartha Deva
 
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Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
> "Steve W" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking
> > about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more
> > on that another day.
> > --
> > Steve W
> > s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net

>
> How curious, this came from a posting at a.b.r. today
> http://members.cox.net/hebertcooking/proofing_box.htm


very good picture - one can see how the right side of the dough gets
more radiation heat from the lamp and warmer. The effects on crumb and
taste should be researched and documented. Probably very interesting if
somebody is into those things.

What is needed is a microwave rotating plates. Also, the temperature is
not regulated and if you have more than one box, they won't stack very
well because of the stupid switch/cable arrangement on the side.

Samartha

--
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Samartha Deva
 
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Janet Bostwick wrote:

> http://members.cox.net/hebertcooking/proofing_box.htm



in addition - I wonder, what the thermometer is going to measure right
on the top with still (unarticulated) air? To calculate from that the
temperature the dough bowl has on the bottom depending on ambient
temperature is another great project - if somebody is into it.

S.

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Samartha Deva
 
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Darrell Greenwood wrote:

> My setup maintained any temperature it was set to. I could never see
> the thermometer vary by even 1 degree F from where I set it. (The
> temperature in almost any home is thermostatically controlled, you only
> want to have an offset from that temperature)


Although thermostatically controlled, this does not work with my heating
since it has this automatic night temperature reduction (which could be
disabled) - then during day, it gets really warm, depending on cloud
cover. In my case, when growing starter 30-something hours it would not
work if I want the temperature to be fairly constant (for repeatibility
and intended comparison).

Samartha


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Steve W
 
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* Kenneth > 2003-10-28:
> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:22:52 GMT, Steve W >
> wrote:
>
>>* Kenneth > 2003-10-28:
>>> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:03:20 GMT, Steve W >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking
>>>>about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more
>>>>on that another day.
>>>
>>> Howdy,
>>>
>>> If you need help with this, please post again. There are a number of
>>> techniques that are easy, and inexpensive.

>>
>>Easy and inexpensive sounds good to me! I have the following parts on
>>hand:
>>
>>- A clear plastic storage bin for main enclosure
>>- 12 volt DC power supply ( AC wall adapter )
>>- standard round Honeywell mechanical home thermostat
>>- 12 volt computer fan for circulation
>>- 110 VAC lamp fixture for heating element
>>
>>I think all I need now is an appropriate relay with 12 VDC coil which
>>should be available cheaply at RxxxxShack, and some sort of small
>>enclosure for the "guts".
>>
>>I have already seen discussions in earlier threads about Samartha's fish
>>tank heater, Dick's modified coffee pot thermostat, and your own
>>modified refrigerator. Good solutions all! More ideas are certainly
>>welcome.

>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I think you are probably ahead of me...


Not likely. :-)

>
> I would forget about the fan,


Yes, maybe I will start out that way and add the fan only if problems
arise.

> get the relay, screw in a low wattage
> bulb, and turn it on and off with the thermostat. Put something above
> the bulb so that the warm air coming off it will have to "go around
> the barrier."


So what's the idea here? The barrier difuses the rising stream of hot
air?

> With that, convection will even out the temperature
> inside the box.


Thanks for your ideas.

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net
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Steve W
 
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* Darrell Greenwood > 2003-10-29:
> In the philosophy of 'keep it simple', IMHO you don't need thermostatic
> control. I used;
>
> 1 cheap styrofoam cooler or almost any container or box of suitable size
> 1 lamp dimmer switch
> 1 lamp socket with 15 watt bulb.
>
> My setup maintained any temperature it was set to. I could never see
> the thermometer vary by even 1 degree F from where I set it. (The
> temperature in almost any home is thermostatically controlled, you only
> want to have an offset from that temperature)


Yes, I used this setup successfully for a couple of years. Haven't used
it lately because my existing box is too small for my current needs.
However, the temperature in my house varys quite a bit between day and
night. I often let my sourdough ferment for 24 hours (pancakes) so the
daily fluctuation in ambient temperature becomes an issue.

>
> Nowadays I don't bother with it, when I want to speed things up I use
> an electric self-cleaning oven (lots of insulation in those) with the
> interior lamp turned on or the main element turned on for a couple of
> minutes.


This is the method I have been using lately. My experience is similar
to Samartha's on this. The 15 watt bulb in my oven generates far too
much heat for such a well insulated space. If I leave the light on my
temperature gets much too high. This requires too much supervision for
my taste.

> Most of time I don't even do that but go with the ambient
> temperature and adjust the time accordingly.


Fine in Summer. The price of natural gas dictates a temperature that
is much too low during the Winter.

Thanks for your input.

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net
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Steve W
 
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* Janet Bostwick > 2003-10-29:
>
> How curious, this came from a posting at a.b.r. today
> http://members.cox.net/hebertcooking/proofing_box.htm


Rather expensive for such a simple design. No thermostat. :-(

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net


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Kenneth
 
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On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:29:54 GMT, Steve W >
wrote:

>So what's the idea here? The barrier difuses the rising stream of hot
>air?


Hi Steve,

Yup. But do remember that with the very low wattage bulb that we are
talking about there is not exactly a "stream" of hot air. It was just
that I thought it best to avoid having the surface of the bulb radiate
its heat directly. With a piece of cardboard (or some such) between
the bulb and the dough, that problem would be avoided, and the overall
temperature inside the box would be more uniform.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:30:33 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>>So what's the idea here? The barrier difuses the rising stream of hot
>>air?


>Hi Steve,


>Yup. But do remember that with the very low wattage bulb that we are
>talking about there is not exactly a "stream" of hot air. It was just
>that I thought it best to avoid having the surface of the bulb radiate
>its heat directly. With a piece of cardboard (or some such) between
>the bulb and the dough, that problem would be avoided, and the overall
>temperature inside the box would be more uniform.


If you want a heat radiation barrier use a piece of heavy duty
aluminum foil folded several times to make it stronger.

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