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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
Hi people
As the subject indicates, I'm a bit concerned about the smell of my starter. It rises nicely and the last few loaves I've made with it have been yummy but the smell has changed. I'm hoping that this is just a change in the population of the bread beasties caused by using the starter more regularly than I have previously. Has anyone else had this problem or have any ideas ? TIA. ivan. if you want to contact me privately, remove the obvious |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
Ivan McDonagh wrote:
> > Hi people > > As the subject indicates, I'm a bit concerned about the smell of my > starter. > > It rises nicely and the last few loaves I've made with it have been yummy > but the smell has changed. I'm hoping that this is just a change in the > population of the bread beasties caused by using the starter more regularly > than I have previously. > > Has anyone else had this problem or have any ideas ? > > TIA. > > ivan. > > if you want to contact me privately, remove the obvious Some time ago I bought the KA New England starter. They warned me that it may smell like "nail polish" when I got it and that it was OK for it to smell like that. I don't know why. Just make some bread and feed it to your mother-in-law. It is what I call a win-win situation. ;-) Bert |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
* Ivan McDonagh > 2003-10-27:
> Hi people > > As the subject indicates, I'm a bit concerned about the smell of my > starter. > > It rises nicely and the last few loaves I've made with it have been yummy > but the smell has changed. I'm hoping that this is just a change in the > population of the bread beasties caused by using the starter more regularly > than I have previously. > > Has anyone else had this problem or have any ideas ? Hard to guess what might have happened without more details on how you have recently handled your starter. Personally I don't eat anything that smells bad. Fresh healthy sourdough culture smells wonderful! -- Steve W s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
Ivan McDonagh wrote: > As the subject indicates, I'm a bit concerned about the smell of my > starter. Don't worry about it. It is a natural thing that happens. It is only unusual in the sense that you report the smell from starter that you are using more often. I have only noticed that smell in starter that seriously needed to be fed. I am thinking about a covered jar of starter that had been pushed to the back of the refrigerator and forgotten for a time. I think of a starch, to sugar, to alcohol, to vinegar progression as the basic chemistry in the yeast culture. However, acetone and aromatic esters are, or can be produced as well. In a very active culture, the areation caused by the CO2 bubbling should disapate the minor areomatics before they can accumulate in noticable quanities. I suspect that your sourdough will return to normal with regular use and refreshment. If you want to hasten the process, take a teaspoon of the culture and build it up by doubling until you have that quanity that you wish to keep. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
Steve W > wrote in
: > * Ivan McDonagh > 2003-10-27: >> Hi people <SNIP> > > Hard to guess what might have happened without more details on how you > have recently handled your starter. Personally I don't eat anything > that smells bad. Fresh healthy sourdough culture smells wonderful! > Thanks Steve and Bert. Love Bert's idea - all I need is a mother-in-law *grins* Steve, The starter is a home-grown one started and fed on the cheapest flour I could find. Just recently, being as how I've decided to start making bread on a regular basis rather than just playing, I got some "bakers flour" from the supermarket and now use that instead of the super cheap *ahem* rubbish. Feeding regime is basically empty the whole lot into a mixing bowl to use for bread and then add 50g flour and 50g water to whatever is left in the starter container - there's usually a reasonable amount. Because I'm baking every day now I just leave the starter in the open - the weather isn't terribly hot (day time max about 25C) and it tends to be suitably frothy and wonderful by the time I get around to using it approx. 24hrs later. I agree with you comments - my starter *did* smell wonderful ... if ever I started to think life wasn't so good, I took a good sniff and magically gained a sense of perspective Thanks for the feedback. Ivan. |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
* Ivan McDonagh > 2003-10-29:
> The starter is a home-grown one started and fed on the cheapest flour I > could find. Just recently, being as how I've decided to start making > bread on a regular basis rather than just playing, I got some "bakers > flour" from the supermarket and now use that instead of the super cheap > *ahem* rubbish. Should be fine either way. I don't know the source of your problem but have made a couple of comments based own my own experience. > > Feeding regime is basically empty the whole lot into a mixing bowl to > use for bread and then add 50g flour and 50g water to whatever is left > in the starter container - there's usually a reasonable amount. Rather than emptying out as much as possible you might consider leaving at least 10 to 20 grams ( I would leave 50g). At some point ( not sure when ) over-dilution may allow foreign organisms to gain a foothold in your culture. > Because > I'm baking every day now I just leave the starter in the open - the > weather isn't terribly hot (day time max about 25C) and it tends to be > suitably frothy and wonderful by the time I get around to using it > approx. 24hrs later. I like to use the sponge earlier, at peak strength before it starts to get very sour and fall. I refrigerate sponge if delay will be more than 4-6 hours. > > I agree with you comments - my starter *did* smell wonderful ... if ever > I started to think life wasn't so good, I took a good sniff and > magically gained a sense of perspective Nothing better! -- Steve W s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
Charles Perry > wrote in message >...
> Ivan McDonagh wrote: > > > As the subject indicates, I'm a bit concerned about the smell of my > > starter. > > Don't worry about it. It is a natural thing that happens. It is only unusual > in the sense that you report the smell from starter that you are using more > often. I have only noticed that smell in starter that seriously needed to be > fed. I am thinking about a covered jar of starter that had been pushed to the > back of the refrigerator and forgotten for a time. > > I think of a starch, to sugar, to alcohol, to vinegar progression as the basic > chemistry in the yeast culture. However, acetone and aromatic esters are, or > can be produced as well. In a very active culture, the areation caused by the > CO2 bubbling should disapate the minor areomatics before they can accumulate in > noticable quanities. > > I suspect that your sourdough will return to normal with regular use and > refreshment. If you want to hasten the process, take a teaspoon of the culture > and build it up by doubling until you have that quanity that you wish to keep. > > Regards, > > Charles Is the starter alive, i.e. bubbly? If so then you're most likely OK, you are just unaccustomed to the smell. Another cue: Is the fermentation temperature OK? Ideally, it should hoover around 85-90F, however many people miss that very important point... |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
"Nabuco" > wrote in message=20 om... > [ ... ] > Ideally, it (the temperature for starter culture) should hoover around = > 85 - 90F, however many people miss that very important point... Like me, for instance. Not only miss, but don't believe. Another point frequently missed is that you do not need to quote the entire message to comment it. Anybody who wants to review the subject message can download it by clicking on the news ID, or get it at Google Groups. Messages can be seen there threaded, so quoted/requoted/... stuff is more of an=20 obstacle and an aid. Here is a quiz on more or less of the same subject. What is the matter with the bread in the following photo?: http://prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/ugly.jpg The dough went to pieces during the rise, and the tops are altogether ugly. Also I could not get it golden brown by raising the oven = temperature and increasing the time of the bake. And it is very difficult to toast = without scorching. It did not rise as well as usual. But we are eating it = anyway, and it tastes pretty good. I am pretty sure I know what mistake I made, but what do you think? How about you, "Nabuco" -- you want to take a shot at it? --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
... <<snip>> >Here is a quiz on more or less of the same subject. What is the matter >with the bread in the following photo?: >http://prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/ugly.jpg >The dough went to pieces during the rise, and the tops are altogether >ugly. Also I could not get it golden brown by raising the oven temperature >and increasing the time of the bake. And it is very difficult to toast without >scorching. It did not rise as well as usual. But we are eating it anyway, >and it tastes pretty good. As the dough was well into its rise you realized you forgot to add salt. You then re-kneaded the dough in order to work in the salt with the hope you could salvage the bread. Then the rising process began all over again. Serious, I have no idea if that's what happened, but I forgot to add salt when I was baking this weekend, did the above and had results similar to what you show and describe. That's the first time I'd done that. I can't believe I was so absent-minded. -Mike |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:25:11 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
> wrote: >I forgot to add salt >when I was baking this weekend, did the above and had results similar to >what you show and describe. That's the first time I'd done that. I can't >believe I was so absent-minded. May I suggest a habit to get into when doing anything that requires several steps that you have repeated many times. Put all the necessary ingredients and tools in one place that is uncluttered. As you use each one, put it somewhere else that is uncluttered, if you do not need it again. When you think you are done, the original place must be empty or else you forgot something. That's how surgeons do it, only they leave parts in that don't belong there. So, after you are done, it might be adviseable to take a look at the second place where you put things after you were done - just to make sure you did not leave something like a spoon in the already-formed loaf. |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
Dick Adams wrote: > Here is a quiz on more or less of the same subject. What is the matter > with the bread in the following photo?: Well, obviously you have said or done something that has irritated the Bread Faeries. Perhaps you cut too many escape slashes for them and they took that as condensending on your part. Who knows? Sometimes they get ticked off for reasons beyond our ken. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:07:04 GMT, Charles Perry >
wrote: >> Here is a quiz on more or less of the same subject. What is the matter >> with the bread in the following photo?: >Well, obviously you have said or done something that has irritated the Bread >Faeries. Perhaps you cut too many escape slashes for them and they took that as >condensending on your part. Who knows? Sometimes they get ticked off for reasons >beyond our ken. It's even simpler than that. In a drunken stupor, he ****ed in the starter. |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
Charles Perry > wrote in message >...
> Ivan McDonagh wrote: > > > As the subject indicates, I'm a bit concerned about the smell of my > > starter. > > Don't worry about it. It is a natural thing that happens. It is only unusual > in the sense that you report the smell from starter that you are using more > often. I have only noticed that smell in starter that seriously needed to be > fed. I am thinking about a covered jar of starter that had been pushed to the > back of the refrigerator and forgotten for a time. > > I think of a starch, to sugar, to alcohol, to vinegar progression as the basic > chemistry in the yeast culture. However, acetone and aromatic esters are, or > can be produced as well. In a very active culture, the areation caused by the > CO2 bubbling should disapate the minor areomatics before they can accumulate in > noticable quanities. > Paint thinner smell ? It is likely the ester, ethyl acetate , the esterification reaction of the alcohol formed by the yeast and the acetic acid formed by the lactobacteria CH3CH2OH + CH3COOH = CH3CH2COOCH3 + H2O It is volatile substance and that material is the predominating smell of ripe banana flavor so its not toxic at such very small quantities. Roy |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
.... A small correction, Roy. The equation should be:
CH3CH2OH + CH3COOH ----> CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 + H2O Your equation shows methyl propionate as the product, not ethyl acetate. - Steve Brandt "Roy Basan" > wrote in message om... > It is likely the ester, ethyl acetate , the esterification reaction of > the alcohol formed by the yeast and the acetic acid formed by the > lactobacteria > CH3CH2OH + CH3COOH = CH3CH2COOCH3 + H2O > > It is volatile substance and that material is the predominating smell > of ripe banana flavor so its not toxic at such very small quantities. > Roy |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
Steve B wrote: > ... CH3CH2OH + CH3COOH ----> CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 + H2O Roy, Steve, I don't know how you guys remember that stuff, but I am glad someone does. Nearly 50 years ago the chore of drawing diagrams for those kind of reactions for an Intro to organic chemistry class drove me to banging my head upon the desk and thense to drink. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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Quiz answer
"Dick Adams" > in message=20 ... asked this quiz question: > What is the matter with the bread in the following photo?: > http://prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/ugly.jpg > The dough went to pieces during the rise, and the tops are=20 > altogether ugly. Also I could not get it golden brown by raising=20 > the oven temperature and increasing the time of the bake. And=20 > it is very difficult to toast without scorching. It did not rise as=20 > well as usual. But we are eating it anyway, and it tastes pretty=20 > good. My answer: Preferment overdevelopment. The sponge, ~50/50 water to flour by weight, went too long/too warm, rose and began to fall. Dough from it tore easily and could not be made smooth. Old time baker might say "dough went to rags". Gluten degradation, no doubt. Can happen also with yeasted bread from sponge. Can happen with straight dough method (small inoculation in the case of=20 sourdough), but not likely in that case without severe =20 overkneading. Seems to me it is the most likely failure with sourdough. I don't know why it is so seldom noted/discussed. One theory is that no=20 one out there actually does sourdough, but only talks sourdough. Another is that no one does sponges. Yet another is that=20 people think that sourdough loaves are supposed to be ugly. Since the loaves were not rising well, I let the rise go longer than normal. That gave time for the sugars to be consumed with the result that Maillard browning was much reduced. Loaves were sour and tasty, but a bit dense. Bad dough, like in this=20 case, does not hold gas well enough for a good rise.=20 Loaves like those pictured are a very likely consequence of=20 following the usual (bad) advice to allow preferments to sour. --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
Charles,
I was an organic chemist in a previous life. It almost drove me to drink (hence the "previous"). I much prefer baking sourdough bread. - Steve "Charles Perry" > wrote in message ... > Roy, Steve, I don't know how you guys remember that stuff, but I am glad > someone does. > > Nearly 50 years ago the chore of drawing diagrams for those kind of > reactions for an Intro to organic chemistry class drove me to banging my > head upon the desk and thense to drink. |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
"Steve B" > wrote in message news:<bSgob.49946$9E1.213345@attbi_s52>...
> ... A small correction, Roy. The equation should be: > > CH3CH2OH + CH3COOH ----> CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 + H2O > > Your equation shows methyl propionate as the product, not ethyl acetate. > Thanks for your comments Steve... But it will be impossible for methyl propionate to arise from the reaction of CH3CH2OH or ethanol and CH3COOH or acetic acid to form methyl propionate. That product should emanate from the esterification reaction of methanol and propionic acid. It is an unlikely product of bread fermentation. Although we cannot discount that maybe High Performance Liquid Chromatography (HPLC)analysis maybe able to isolate that precusors as well as the product methyl propionate from the dough and bread aroma. But the main issue here is the formation of the paint thinner smell which is attributed to ethyl acetate and not methyl propionate. The actual product is ethyl acetate which unfortunately has similar molecular formula but the difference will be more obvious in the structural formula where we can account for the double bond of the carbonyl in between the methylene CH2 and methoxy OCH3.If we have to describe it in Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) analysis data of the molecule then we should specify that but we are not. Therefo I would say that you are absolutely right;IF you had written the formula clearly with emphasis such as: CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 instead of just CH3CH2OC(O)CH3.There you are emphasizing the presence of the double bond.That is more a rational molecular formula for methyl propionate then. Roy |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
Roy Basan wrote:
> "Steve B" > wrote in message news:<bSgob.49946$9E1.213345@attbi_s52>... > CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 instead of just CH3CH2OC(O)CH3.There you are > emphasizing the presence of the double bond.That is more a rational > molecular formula for methyl propionate then. > > Roy I knew when I slept through that 8am organic chem class that I was missing something important : -) Let's just hope my sourdough starter does what comes naturally so I don't have to worry about diagramming molecules. (but some of the carbon ones are pretty.) Heather _amaryllisATyahooDOTcom |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
Roy,
IF I had written the formula as CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 instead of CH3CH2OC(O)CH3, I would have been wrong since CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 is the formula for methyl propionate and the purpose of my post was to alert you to the fact that it was CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 or ethyl acetate that was formed. CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 can also be written as CH3CH2OC(=O)CH3, although the former is more widely used as a shorthand among chemists. Enough chemistry.... let's get back to sourdough! - Steve "Roy Basan" > wrote in message om... > "Steve B" > wrote in message news:<bSgob.49946$9E1.213345@attbi_s52>... > I would say that you are absolutely right;IF you had written the > formula clearly with emphasis such as: > CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 instead of just CH3CH2OC(O)CH3.There you are > emphasizing the presence of the double bond.That is more a rational > molecular formula for methyl propionate then. |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
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Starter smells like paint thinners
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:44:52 GMT, "Steve B" >
wrote: >IF I had written the formula as CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 instead of CH3CH2OC(O)CH3, I >would have been wrong since CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 is the formula for methyl >propionate and the purpose of my post was to alert you to the fact that it >was CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 or ethyl acetate that was formed. CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 can >also be written as CH3CH2OC(=O)CH3, although the former is more widely used >as a shorthand among chemists. Enough chemistry.... let's get back to >sourdough! Now I know why you guys want to measure everything so precisely - you're all chemists. Must be an occupational hazard to demand such precision when it is not really needed. What purpose is served by weighing ingredients to the milligram only to adjust the final dough by adding water manually until it feels right. |
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Starter smells like paint thinners
Kenneth > wrote in
: > On 30 Oct 2003 19:18:18 -0800, (Roy Basan) wrote: > >>I would say that you are absolutely right;IF you had written the >>formula clearly with emphasis such as: >>CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 instead of just CH3CH2OC(O)CH3. > > So THAT'S why I was having trouble following this! <VBG> > *WOWSERS* Thanks for such an educational and informative discussion. Just to let you know, the g/f said the bread was nice so I guess it's safe for me to use the starter Ivan. |
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