Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ivan McDonagh
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

Hi people

As the subject indicates, I'm a bit concerned about the smell of my
starter.

It rises nicely and the last few loaves I've made with it have been yummy
but the smell has changed. I'm hoping that this is just a change in the
population of the bread beasties caused by using the starter more regularly
than I have previously.

Has anyone else had this problem or have any ideas ?

TIA.

ivan.

if you want to contact me privately, remove the obvious
  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

Ivan McDonagh wrote:
>
> Hi people
>
> As the subject indicates, I'm a bit concerned about the smell of my
> starter.
>
> It rises nicely and the last few loaves I've made with it have been yummy
> but the smell has changed. I'm hoping that this is just a change in the
> population of the bread beasties caused by using the starter more regularly
> than I have previously.
>
> Has anyone else had this problem or have any ideas ?
>
> TIA.
>
> ivan.
>
> if you want to contact me privately, remove the obvious


Some time ago I bought the KA New England starter. They warned me that it may
smell like "nail polish" when I got it and that it was OK for it to smell like
that.

I don't know why. Just make some bread and feed it to your mother-in-law. It
is what I call a win-win situation. ;-)

Bert
  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve W
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

* Ivan McDonagh > 2003-10-27:
> Hi people
>
> As the subject indicates, I'm a bit concerned about the smell of my
> starter.
>
> It rises nicely and the last few loaves I've made with it have been yummy
> but the smell has changed. I'm hoping that this is just a change in the
> population of the bread beasties caused by using the starter more regularly
> than I have previously.
>
> Has anyone else had this problem or have any ideas ?


Hard to guess what might have happened without more details on how you
have recently handled your starter. Personally I don't eat anything
that smells bad. Fresh healthy sourdough culture smells wonderful!

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners



Ivan McDonagh wrote:

> As the subject indicates, I'm a bit concerned about the smell of my
> starter.


Don't worry about it. It is a natural thing that happens. It is only unusual
in the sense that you report the smell from starter that you are using more
often. I have only noticed that smell in starter that seriously needed to be
fed. I am thinking about a covered jar of starter that had been pushed to the
back of the refrigerator and forgotten for a time.

I think of a starch, to sugar, to alcohol, to vinegar progression as the basic
chemistry in the yeast culture. However, acetone and aromatic esters are, or
can be produced as well. In a very active culture, the areation caused by the
CO2 bubbling should disapate the minor areomatics before they can accumulate in
noticable quanities.

I suspect that your sourdough will return to normal with regular use and
refreshment. If you want to hasten the process, take a teaspoon of the culture
and build it up by doubling until you have that quanity that you wish to keep.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **


  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ivan McDonagh
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

Steve W > wrote in
:

> * Ivan McDonagh > 2003-10-27:
>> Hi people


<SNIP>

>
> Hard to guess what might have happened without more details on how you
> have recently handled your starter. Personally I don't eat anything
> that smells bad. Fresh healthy sourdough culture smells wonderful!
>


Thanks Steve and Bert.

Love Bert's idea - all I need is a mother-in-law *grins*

Steve,

The starter is a home-grown one started and fed on the cheapest flour I
could find. Just recently, being as how I've decided to start making
bread on a regular basis rather than just playing, I got some "bakers
flour" from the supermarket and now use that instead of the super cheap
*ahem* rubbish.

Feeding regime is basically empty the whole lot into a mixing bowl to
use for bread and then add 50g flour and 50g water to whatever is left
in the starter container - there's usually a reasonable amount. Because
I'm baking every day now I just leave the starter in the open - the
weather isn't terribly hot (day time max about 25C) and it tends to be
suitably frothy and wonderful by the time I get around to using it
approx. 24hrs later.

I agree with you comments - my starter *did* smell wonderful ... if ever
I started to think life wasn't so good, I took a good sniff and
magically gained a sense of perspective

Thanks for the feedback.

Ivan.


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve W
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

* Ivan McDonagh > 2003-10-29:
> The starter is a home-grown one started and fed on the cheapest flour I
> could find. Just recently, being as how I've decided to start making
> bread on a regular basis rather than just playing, I got some "bakers
> flour" from the supermarket and now use that instead of the super cheap
> *ahem* rubbish.


Should be fine either way. I don't know the source of your problem but
have made a couple of comments based own my own experience.
>
> Feeding regime is basically empty the whole lot into a mixing bowl to
> use for bread and then add 50g flour and 50g water to whatever is left
> in the starter container - there's usually a reasonable amount.


Rather than emptying out as much as possible you might consider leaving
at least 10 to 20 grams ( I would leave 50g). At some point ( not sure
when ) over-dilution may allow foreign organisms to gain a foothold in
your culture.

> Because
> I'm baking every day now I just leave the starter in the open - the
> weather isn't terribly hot (day time max about 25C) and it tends to be
> suitably frothy and wonderful by the time I get around to using it
> approx. 24hrs later.


I like to use the sponge earlier, at peak strength before it starts to
get very sour and fall. I refrigerate sponge if delay will be more than
4-6 hours.

>
> I agree with you comments - my starter *did* smell wonderful ... if ever
> I started to think life wasn't so good, I took a good sniff and
> magically gained a sense of perspective


Nothing better!

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net
  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Nabuco
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

Charles Perry > wrote in message >...
> Ivan McDonagh wrote:
>
> > As the subject indicates, I'm a bit concerned about the smell of my
> > starter.

>
> Don't worry about it. It is a natural thing that happens. It is only unusual
> in the sense that you report the smell from starter that you are using more
> often. I have only noticed that smell in starter that seriously needed to be
> fed. I am thinking about a covered jar of starter that had been pushed to the
> back of the refrigerator and forgotten for a time.
>
> I think of a starch, to sugar, to alcohol, to vinegar progression as the basic
> chemistry in the yeast culture. However, acetone and aromatic esters are, or
> can be produced as well. In a very active culture, the areation caused by the
> CO2 bubbling should disapate the minor areomatics before they can accumulate in
> noticable quanities.
>
> I suspect that your sourdough will return to normal with regular use and
> refreshment. If you want to hasten the process, take a teaspoon of the culture
> and build it up by doubling until you have that quanity that you wish to keep.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles


Is the starter alive, i.e. bubbly? If so then you're most likely OK,
you are just unaccustomed to the smell.
Another cue: Is the fermentation temperature OK? Ideally, it should
hoover around 85-90F, however many people miss that very important
point...
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners


"Nabuco" > wrote in message=20
om...

> [ ... ]


> Ideally, it (the temperature for starter culture) should hoover around =


> 85 - 90F, however many people miss that very important point...


Like me, for instance. Not only miss, but don't believe.

Another point frequently missed is that you do not need to quote the
entire message to comment it.

Anybody who wants to review the subject message can download
it by clicking on the news ID, or get it at Google Groups. Messages
can be seen there threaded, so quoted/requoted/... stuff is more of an=20
obstacle and an aid.

Here is a quiz on more or less of the same subject. What is the matter
with the bread in the following photo?:

http://prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/ugly.jpg

The dough went to pieces during the rise, and the tops are altogether
ugly. Also I could not get it golden brown by raising the oven =
temperature
and increasing the time of the bake. And it is very difficult to toast =
without
scorching. It did not rise as well as usual. But we are eating it =
anyway,
and it tastes pretty good.

I am pretty sure I know what mistake I made, but what do you think?
How about you, "Nabuco" -- you want to take a shot at it?

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com




  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

<<snip>>

>Here is a quiz on more or less of the same subject. What is the matter
>with the bread in the following photo?:


>http://prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/ugly.jpg


>The dough went to pieces during the rise, and the tops are altogether
>ugly. Also I could not get it golden brown by raising the oven temperature
>and increasing the time of the bake. And it is very difficult to toast

without
>scorching. It did not rise as well as usual. But we are eating it anyway,
>and it tastes pretty good.


As the dough was well into its rise you realized you forgot to add salt. You
then re-kneaded the dough in order to work in the salt with the hope you
could salvage the bread. Then the rising process began all over again.

Serious, I have no idea if that's what happened, but I forgot to add salt
when I was baking this weekend, did the above and had results similar to
what you show and describe. That's the first time I'd done that. I can't
believe I was so absent-minded.

-Mike







  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:25:11 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
> wrote:

>I forgot to add salt
>when I was baking this weekend, did the above and had results similar to
>what you show and describe. That's the first time I'd done that. I can't
>believe I was so absent-minded.


May I suggest a habit to get into when doing anything that requires
several steps that you have repeated many times.

Put all the necessary ingredients and tools in one place that is
uncluttered. As you use each one, put it somewhere else that is
uncluttered, if you do not need it again. When you think you are done,
the original place must be empty or else you forgot something.

That's how surgeons do it, only they leave parts in that don't belong
there. So, after you are done, it might be adviseable to take a look
at the second place where you put things after you were done - just to
make sure you did not leave something like a spoon in the
already-formed loaf.




  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners



Dick Adams wrote:

> Here is a quiz on more or less of the same subject. What is the matter
> with the bread in the following photo?:


Well, obviously you have said or done something that has irritated the Bread
Faeries. Perhaps you cut too many escape slashes for them and they took that as
condensending on your part. Who knows? Sometimes they get ticked off for reasons
beyond our ken.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **


  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:07:04 GMT, Charles Perry >
wrote:

>> Here is a quiz on more or less of the same subject. What is the matter
>> with the bread in the following photo?:


>Well, obviously you have said or done something that has irritated the Bread
>Faeries. Perhaps you cut too many escape slashes for them and they took that as
>condensending on your part. Who knows? Sometimes they get ticked off for reasons
>beyond our ken.


It's even simpler than that. In a drunken stupor, he ****ed in the
starter.

  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roy Basan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

Charles Perry > wrote in message >...
> Ivan McDonagh wrote:
>
> > As the subject indicates, I'm a bit concerned about the smell of my
> > starter.

>
> Don't worry about it. It is a natural thing that happens. It is only unusual
> in the sense that you report the smell from starter that you are using more
> often. I have only noticed that smell in starter that seriously needed to be
> fed. I am thinking about a covered jar of starter that had been pushed to the
> back of the refrigerator and forgotten for a time.
>
> I think of a starch, to sugar, to alcohol, to vinegar progression as the basic
> chemistry in the yeast culture. However, acetone and aromatic esters are, or
> can be produced as well. In a very active culture, the areation caused by the
> CO2 bubbling should disapate the minor areomatics before they can accumulate in
> noticable quanities.
>

Paint thinner smell ?
It is likely the ester, ethyl acetate , the esterification reaction of
the alcohol formed by the yeast and the acetic acid formed by the
lactobacteria
CH3CH2OH + CH3COOH = CH3CH2COOCH3 + H2O

It is volatile substance and that material is the predominating smell
of ripe banana flavor so its not toxic at such very small quantities.
Roy
  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve B
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

.... A small correction, Roy. The equation should be:

CH3CH2OH + CH3COOH ----> CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 + H2O

Your equation shows methyl propionate as the product, not ethyl acetate.

- Steve Brandt

"Roy Basan" > wrote in message
om...
> It is likely the ester, ethyl acetate , the esterification reaction of
> the alcohol formed by the yeast and the acetic acid formed by the
> lactobacteria
> CH3CH2OH + CH3COOH = CH3CH2COOCH3 + H2O
>
> It is volatile substance and that material is the predominating smell
> of ripe banana flavor so its not toxic at such very small quantities.
> Roy



  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners



Steve B wrote:

> ... CH3CH2OH + CH3COOH ----> CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 + H2O


Roy, Steve, I don't know how you guys remember that stuff, but I am glad
someone does.

Nearly 50 years ago the chore of drawing diagrams for those kind of
reactions for an Intro to organic chemistry class drove me to banging my
head upon the desk and thense to drink.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **




  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
Posts: n/a
Default Quiz answer


"Dick Adams" > in message=20
...

asked this quiz question:

> What is the matter with the bread in the following photo?:


> http://prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/ugly.jpg


> The dough went to pieces during the rise, and the tops are=20
> altogether ugly. Also I could not get it golden brown by raising=20
> the oven temperature and increasing the time of the bake. And=20
> it is very difficult to toast without scorching. It did not rise as=20
> well as usual. But we are eating it anyway, and it tastes pretty=20
> good.


My answer:

Preferment overdevelopment. The sponge, ~50/50 water to flour
by weight, went too long/too warm, rose and began to fall. Dough
from it tore easily and could not be made smooth. Old time baker
might say "dough went to rags". Gluten degradation, no doubt.
Can happen also with yeasted bread from sponge. Can happen
with straight dough method (small inoculation in the case of=20
sourdough), but not likely in that case without severe =20
overkneading.

Seems to me it is the most likely failure with sourdough. I don't
know why it is so seldom noted/discussed. One theory is that no=20
one out there actually does sourdough, but only talks sourdough.
Another is that no one does sponges. Yet another is that=20
people think that sourdough loaves are supposed to be ugly.

Since the loaves were not rising well, I let the rise go longer
than normal. That gave time for the sugars to be consumed with
the result that Maillard browning was much reduced. Loaves
were sour and tasty, but a bit dense. Bad dough, like in this=20
case, does not hold gas well enough for a good rise.=20

Loaves like those pictured are a very likely consequence of=20
following the usual (bad) advice to allow preferments to sour.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com



  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve B
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

Charles,

I was an organic chemist in a previous life. It almost drove me to drink
(hence the "previous"). I much prefer baking sourdough bread.

- Steve

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
...
> Roy, Steve, I don't know how you guys remember that stuff, but I am glad
> someone does.
>
> Nearly 50 years ago the chore of drawing diagrams for those kind of
> reactions for an Intro to organic chemistry class drove me to banging my
> head upon the desk and thense to drink.



  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roy Basan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

"Steve B" > wrote in message news:<bSgob.49946$9E1.213345@attbi_s52>...
> ... A small correction, Roy. The equation should be:
>
> CH3CH2OH + CH3COOH ----> CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 + H2O
>
> Your equation shows methyl propionate as the product, not ethyl acetate.
>

Thanks for your comments Steve...
But it will be impossible for methyl propionate to arise from the
reaction of
CH3CH2OH or ethanol and CH3COOH or acetic acid to form methyl
propionate.
That product should emanate from the esterification reaction of
methanol and propionic acid. It is an unlikely product of bread
fermentation.
Although we cannot discount that maybe High Performance Liquid
Chromatography (HPLC)analysis maybe able to isolate that precusors as
well as the product methyl propionate from the dough and bread aroma.
But the main issue here is the formation of the paint thinner smell
which is attributed to ethyl acetate and not methyl propionate.
The actual product is ethyl acetate which unfortunately has similar
molecular formula but the difference will be more obvious in the
structural formula where we can account for the double bond of the
carbonyl in between the methylene CH2 and methoxy OCH3.If we have to
describe it in Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) analysis data of the
molecule then we should specify that but we are not.
Therefo
I would say that you are absolutely right;IF you had written the
formula clearly with emphasis such as:
CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 instead of just CH3CH2OC(O)CH3.There you are
emphasizing the presence of the double bond.That is more a rational
molecular formula for methyl propionate then.

Roy
  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
HeatherInSwampscott
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

Roy Basan wrote:
> "Steve B" > wrote in message news:<bSgob.49946$9E1.213345@attbi_s52>...


> CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 instead of just CH3CH2OC(O)CH3.There you are
> emphasizing the presence of the double bond.That is more a rational
> molecular formula for methyl propionate then.
>
> Roy


I knew when I slept through that 8am organic chem class that I was
missing something important : -) Let's just hope my sourdough starter
does what comes naturally so I don't have to worry about diagramming
molecules. (but some of the carbon ones are pretty.)

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve B
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

Roy,

IF I had written the formula as CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 instead of CH3CH2OC(O)CH3, I
would have been wrong since CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 is the formula for methyl
propionate and the purpose of my post was to alert you to the fact that it
was CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 or ethyl acetate that was formed. CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 can
also be written as CH3CH2OC(=O)CH3, although the former is more widely used
as a shorthand among chemists. Enough chemistry.... let's get back to
sourdough!

- Steve

"Roy Basan" > wrote in message
om...
> "Steve B" > wrote in message

news:<bSgob.49946$9E1.213345@attbi_s52>...

> I would say that you are absolutely right;IF you had written the
> formula clearly with emphasis such as:
> CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 instead of just CH3CH2OC(O)CH3.There you are
> emphasizing the presence of the double bond.That is more a rational
> molecular formula for methyl propionate then.





  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starter smells like paint thinners

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:44:52 GMT, "Steve B" >
wrote:

>IF I had written the formula as CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 instead of CH3CH2OC(O)CH3, I
>would have been wrong since CH3CH2C(=O)OCH3 is the formula for methyl
>propionate and the purpose of my post was to alert you to the fact that it
>was CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 or ethyl acetate that was formed. CH3CH2OC(O)CH3 can
>also be written as CH3CH2OC(=O)CH3, although the former is more widely used
>as a shorthand among chemists. Enough chemistry.... let's get back to
>sourdough!


Now I know why you guys want to measure everything so precisely -
you're all chemists.

Must be an occupational hazard to demand such precision when it is not
really needed.

What purpose is served by weighing ingredients to the milligram only
to adjust the final dough by adding water manually until it feels
right.

Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Blood thinners and super glue. Julie Bove[_2_] General Cooking 7 18-01-2011 11:39 PM
green and white teas and blood thinners ladyredlight Tea 8 01-08-2007 04:20 PM
starter smells like old cheap whiskey?!! The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN Sourdough 17 18-08-2005 06:08 PM
starter that smells like alcohol ? (new here) Geno Centofanti Sourdough 2 11-03-2005 05:27 AM
My starter smells...wrong Phil Sourdough 12 05-08-2004 04:55 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:06 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 FoodBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Food and drink"