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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
"Bob" > wrote in message ... > > >Nope. She did it a la Nancy Silverton where you wash the grapes and put > >them into the flour-water mixture. > > I just looked up her book on amazon.com - "Nancy Silverton's Breads > from the LA Brea Bakery: Recipes for the Connoisseur". I am going to > order it from the library. I trust this is the definitive reference > you allude to. A friend of mine made that starter and sent me some, still using it after 3 years. It's real temperature sensitive and when you feed it, it doesn't bubble up manically but it sure does make good bread! I really like her rosemary-olive oil bread. Ellen |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
In article >,=20
Bob wrote: > The one redeeming thing about this hobby is that it is so inexpensive. Yeah, wow! 137+ messages posted without buying even one=20 postage stamp. > Where else can you spend hours making something that you can=20 > end up eating (if successful) for only a dollar in components?=20 And, being unsuccessful, you can always eat your starter. > My wife points out how many times I have thrown away failed=20 > experiments, but I remind her that it only cost me a dollar or so. So far, so good. But there may one day be the expense of heating the oven. --- DickA (Emeritus Startermucker) |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
Unless, of course, that is the source of one's lack of success.
"Dick Adams" > wrote in message ... > And, being unsuccessful, you can always eat your starter. |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On 25 Oct 2003 04:00:11 GMT, Ignoramus785
> wrote: >Actually, more like a quarter for a normal loaf. >I make smaller loaves, so mine are maybe 15 cents each. One of the local grocery stores ran a special on all purpose flour: 29 cents for a 5 lb bag. You can make 10 decent sized loaves with one bag, so the cost of ingredients would be 3 cents per loaf. |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:47:35 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: >> The one redeeming thing about this hobby is that it is so inexpensive. >Yeah, wow! 137+ messages posted without buying even one >postage stamp. So? At least I am getting my money's worth from that monthly ISP fee I pay. BTW, what's a postage stamp? I vaguely recall using something like that years ago. >> Where else can you spend hours making something that you can >> end up eating (if successful) for only a dollar in components? >And, being unsuccessful, you can always eat your starter. I was talking about the finished product. The cost of ingredients for the self starter experiments is negligable. >> My wife points out how many times I have thrown away failed >> experiments, but I remind her that it only cost me a dollar or so. >So far, so good. But there may one day be the expense of heating >the oven. I included the cost of heating the oven in the $1 above. I use about 5 cups of flour per batch (3 rather plump baguettes) which costs me about 50 cents because I use KA bread flour - which is more expensive than cheap all purpose flour. Cold season is coming upon us here in Houston, and this one appears to be a very cold one. Tonight's low is going to be around 42F with tomorrow's high at 62F - according to the NWS. That is the kind of temperarute you expect a month from now. With the price of natural gas so high, having left over oven heat will be advantageous for my heating bill. If I subtract off the differential cost of heating the house (gas vs electricity), it might actually pay me to make bread. So baking bread at home has yet another benefit - it's effectively free. Name one other hobby like that. Even chasing after women costs money and it's not good for your health if your wife finds out. |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
"Marcella Tracy Peek" > in message = said to Bob:=20 > Let us know how it goes (with the grape starter). =20 It does seem quite likely he will do just that. Can you imagine what it will be like here if he succeeds to=20 make some bread? |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:12:11 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: >> Let us know how it goes (with the grape starter). >It does seem quite likely he will do just that. >Can you imagine what it will be like here if he succeeds to >make some bread? Yeah, imagine that - someone, who is not a member of the psychopath cult of "experts", actually makes authentic sourdough. And I didn't even have to bruise my knees falling down to worship at your cult altar, either. Imagine someone who could see thru your manifest cult psychosis and expose you for the frauds you are. Yep, wonders never cease. |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:47:35 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: >And, being unsuccessful, you can always eat your starter. It's better than snorting it, like you weirdos do. |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
"Bob" > wrote in message = ... > [ ... ] > Yeah, imagine that - someone, who is not a member of the psychopath > cult of "experts", actually makes authentic sourdough. Actually?=20 > Imagine someone who could see thru your manifest cult psychosis and > expose you for the frauds you are. . One imagines a seriously disturbed person suffering hallucinations. = (Visions of "authentic" sourdough loaves arising from the primordial muck.) > Yep, wonders never cease. Yep, weeds grow in the garden and microorganisms grow in soggy flour. Ain't life wonderful?!!! --- DickA |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:30:07 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: >> Yeah, imagine that - someone, who is not a member of the psychopath >> cult of "experts", actually makes authentic sourdough. >Actually? Yes, actually. Wanna place a little wager on it? >One imagines a seriously disturbed person suffering hallucinations. So you are finally seeking help in psychotherapy. It's about time. Maybe now you can look forward to having them take off your leg restraints. |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:15:39 -0600, Samartha Deva
> wrote: wrote: > >> When creating a starter from scratch with just flour and water you are >> actually trying to capture the yeast and bacillus from the ambient. But the >> issue is whether there is yeast and bacillus in YOUR environment. >> > >This is one of the dumbest statements I have seen within the recent >flatliners here. > >Besides the great accomplishment of requoting the long post, just in >case somebody is unable to get to the previous text. > >I would recommend the poster to actually research: > >a - what the microorganisms in sourdoughs are >b - where microorganisms found in sourdough cultures are naturally >occurring >c - how they propagate >d - what the common germs and germ counts in your "ambient" are >e - what the germs and germ counts in flours are >f - how they compare >g - what the infection pressure of "ambient" germs compared to flour >indigenous CFU's (culture forming units) under consideration of exposed >area is > >And - once you got that figured out, report back and make an actual >contribution instead of sharing your fantasies. > >Thank you, > >Samartha Howdy, The P.N.Q. (patent nonsense quotient) of the posts to this group has soared in recent weeks. For those who are highly experienced, it probably means little; but the (potential) effect on beginners concerns me. For those starting out particularly: Few posts here (or anywhere else for that matter) are as valuable as those offered by Samartha. He knows his stuff from extensive experience. He knows the science (and there is lots of it to know). He is most generous sharing his knowledge both here and at his excellent site. I have been baking for over forty years and have learned much from his comments. If you want to improve your sourdough baking, learn what you can from Samartha's comments, and from those many others who know what they are talking about. If you just want to enjoy the show, I'll happily join you. In a perverse way it certainly is fun. But please don't confuse the performance with sound reasoning, and baking expertise... All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:49:33 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote: >Few posts here (or anywhere else for that matter) are as valuable as >those offered by Samartha. Don't bruise your forehead on the floor as you worship at his cult altar. >He knows his stuff from extensive experience. He knows the science >(and there is lots of it to know). He is most generous sharing his >knowledge both here and at his excellent site. If you call that unprofessional condescending sarcasm he emits "generous sharing" you are sick. You cultists are all sick. Normal people do not behave like this. |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
"Bob" > wrote in message = ... > Yes, actually ("Bob" makes authentic sourdough - presumably bread although the only news we have is about failed starter). > Wanna place a little wager on it? OK, but who is going to be the referee? Samartha is the only person around here that knows anything according to Kenneth, but according to "Bob" he is nuts. Sometimes it is possible to resolve such matters with photographs, but almost no one, including Kenneth, knows how to make those. --- DickA |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
Kenneth > wrote in
: > On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:15:39 -0600, Samartha Deva > > wrote: <snips Samartha's unworthy flaming> >>Besides the great accomplishment of requoting the long post, just in >>case somebody is unable to get to the previous text. >> >>I would recommend the poster to actually research: >> >>a - what the microorganisms in sourdoughs are >>b - where microorganisms found in sourdough cultures are naturally >>occurring >>c - how they propagate >>d - what the common germs and germ counts in your "ambient" are >>e - what the germs and germ counts in flours are >>f - how they compare >>g - what the infection pressure of "ambient" germs compared to flour >>indigenous CFU's (culture forming units) under consideration of >>exposed area is <snip> > The P.N.Q. (patent nonsense quotient) of the posts to this group has > soared in recent weeks. > > For those who are highly experienced, it probably means little; but > the (potential) effect on beginners concerns me. > > For those starting out particularly: > > Few posts here (or anywhere else for that matter) are as valuable as > those offered by Samartha. > > He knows his stuff from extensive experience. He knows the science > (and there is lots of it to know). He is most generous sharing his > knowledge both here and at his excellent site. > > I have been baking for over forty years and have learned much from his > comments. > > If you want to improve your sourdough baking, learn what you can from > Samartha's comments, and from those many others who know what they are > talking about. <snip> Excuse me, you write this praise of Samartha's helpfulness as a comment to a post where he only shares his questions, not his knowledge. That's the same pontificating way Bob has been treated from the beginning, by some of the regulars. However irritating they find him, it would have been to the benefit for all who visit this newsgroup if his questions had been answered and his worries been met with patience. Never mind Bob's posting style. Johan |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:36:26 GMT, Johan > wrote:
>Excuse me, you write this praise of Samartha's helpfulness as a comment to >a post .. Hi Johan, In the literal sense, you are correct... My intent was not to respond to a particular "post" but rather the larger context of the last few weeks. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:11:32 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: >> Yes, actually ("Bob" makes authentic sourdough - presumably bread >although the only news we have is about failed starter). >> Wanna place a little wager on it? >OK, but who is going to be the referee? Are you saying you don't trust me to report the truth on my own? |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:36:26 GMT, Johan > wrote:
>Never mind Bob's posting style. You clearly came in late. If you had come in at the beginning the complete record would be front of youYou would see for yourself that I was attacked first - and for absolutely no good reason. Anyway Bob's posting style is Pure Texan. Don't you know the Texas Motto: "Don't Mess With Texas!" As a Texan I am one of the friendliest people you will ever meet, and I mean that sincerely. In fact,the name "Texas" comes from the Indian word "Tejas" which means "friendly". Unless absolutely necessary, we don't even blow our horns in traffic, like most other people do - it's considered rude. If someone is dawdling at a stoplight which turns gree, the most you will hear is a couple of slight "toots" to remind the guy it's time to go. Try that in New Yawk - where there is every possibility you could love life and limb if you do move out the instant the light turns green. There is one thing, however, you never want to do, and that is to **** off a Texan. They can become as mean and ornery as a rattlesnake when provoked. Behave in a civilized manner and Texans will treat you as a civlilized person. |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:56:33 GMT, Johan > wrote:
>On the other hand, you could give a contribution too, to a more >constructive situation, by calming down one or two notches. "Don't Mess >With Texas!" That's the state motto. >I mean, get some perspective, we are writing posts in a >forum about sourdough... You sure could have fooled me. The very first post was attacked with no justification if this is a forum about sourdough. In fact, it is a hangout for cult fetish trolls who try to cover up for their miserable existence by jumping neophytes. People posting to a forum on sourdough do not behave that way. In any event, I am about to put this matter to rest. Please read my new thread entitled: Ed Wood's "Classic Sourdough" where I debunk Samartha and his cult fetish trolls for attempting to deceive us that the only source of organisms in sourdough starters come from the flour. It may very well be true that in certain circumstances there are organisms in flour (Wood suggests freshly ground organic flour), and that one can make a starter from those organisms. But to claim, as Samartha and his cult groupies do, that airborne starter organisms are a myth, and anyone who believes in them is a fool, is the height of arrogance and needs to be debunked. Once we get this matter resolved, I will killfile the entire lot of these cult fetish trolls. They will have become irrelevant and therefore indulging their continued fakery is a waste of time. On another matter of considerable controversy around here, Wood has some rather pointed comments to make about weighing versus using cups to measure ingredients. He says he uses cups except when he needs more exacting measurements, which he doesn't describe. This weight measurement thing is another of the cult fetishes that needs to be debunked, but I am not going to waste my time doing it. If Ed Wood, a world-renouned sourdough baker, uses cup measures in routine bread making, then that is good enough for me. Wood is wrong when he claims that weighing compensates for humidity pickup. In fact weighing acts to exacerbate the humidity pickup problem. But that's another issue - one that can be easily resolved with a few minutes critical thinking once you realize that flour is less dense than water. |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
"Bob" > wrote: > On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:56:33 GMT, Johan > wrote: > > >On the other hand, you could give a contribution too, to a more > >constructive situation, by calming down one or two notches. "Don't Mess > >With Texas!" > > That's the state motto. Actually, it's "Friedship" See: http://castor.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/symbols.html or you can work your way to the same place from www.texas.gov > > Ed Wood's "Classic Sourdough" > > where I debunk Samartha and his cult fetish trolls for attempting to > deceive us that the only source of organisms in sourdough starters > come from the flour. > > It may very well be true that in certain circumstances there are > organisms in flour (Wood suggests freshly ground organic flour), and > that one can make a starter from those organisms. But to claim, as > Samartha and his cult groupies do, that airborne starter organisms are > a myth, and anyone who believes in them is a fool, is the height of > arrogance and needs to be debunked. > I've read, with great interest, just about every post to this group for the last couple of years or so. I've also, on many occasions, gone back and searched the archives when was looking for conversation on a particular aspect of sourdough. I don't recall anyone ever stating the the "only" source of the organisms found in sourdough starters comes from flour. What I have read is that it is high unlikely (virtually impossible), given the high quantitiy of these organisms present in the flour, that another source would acutally be providing these organisms to the starter. I believe you may have built yourself a straw man. > Wood is wrong when he claims that weighing compensates for humidity > pickup. In fact weighing acts to exacerbate the humidity pickup > problem. But that's another issue - one that can be easily resolved > with a few minutes critical thinking once you realize that flour is > less dense than water. > What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an authority to debunk the idea of flour as the source of sourdough organisms yet it seems he is not bright enough to figure out simple weight and density. -Mike |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:35:18 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
> wrote: >> That's the state motto. >Actually, it's "Friedship" That's the motto for the PRA. In East Texas, the motto is "Don't Mess With Texas!". If you don't believe me, just start a fight in a bar around here. You will be lucky to escape with your life before you get chained to the back of a pickup. >I've read, with great interest, just about every post to this group for the >last couple of years or so. I've also, on many occasions, gone back and >searched the archives when was looking for conversation on a particular >aspect of sourdough. I don't recall anyone ever stating the the "only" >source of the organisms found in sourdough starters comes from flour. What I >have read is that it is high unlikely (virtually impossible), given the high >quantitiy of these organisms present in the flour, that another source would >acutally be providing these organisms to the starter. Smartha and his cult fetish groupies have pontificated on several occasions that airborne organisms do not start sourdough cultures and that those who believe they do are fools. But then you know that, since you have read just about every post to this group. >I believe you may have built yourself a straw man. I am building nothing. I am merely attempting to debunk a cultish fetish. I actually wish Samartha was correct, for reasons stated earlier. I am the one who faithfully followed his proscriptions, until it became obvious I had been suckered into a merry chase. If flour-based organisms are solely responsible for starting sourdough cultures, then it must take a very special flour to make that happen as easily as Samartha and his cult fetish groupies maintain. Maybe the secret is to obtain freshly milled organic flour. It's for sure that after trying with 4 different kinds of store-bought flours, 2 white and 2 rye, that there has to be something special about this. >What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an >authority to debunk the idea of flour as the source of sourdough organisms >yet it seems he is not bright enough to figure out simple weight and >density. You say you have read all the posts on this forum, but it is clear that you have not read Wood's book. Did you read the thread I began about Wood's book? Nowhere in his book does he "debunk the idea of flour as the source of sourdough organisms". I thought I made that abundantly clear in that thread about his book. Or did you not read this thread. He deliberately stays clear of making a pronouncement on that issue. That tells me that he is willing to accept the possibility that flour-based organisms could be a source of starter organisms. I wish it were true. But Wood (and many others including me) are unwilling to go so far as to insist, as Samartha and his cult groupies do, that such consideration rules out airborne starter organisms. And to label people who believe in the existence of airborne starter organisms as "fools who believe in myths" is downright unprofessional in light of the considerable evidence to the contrary - Wood the sourdough baker being one example of such evidence. In true science each advance in knowledge is an extension of prior knowledge. Quantum Mechanics is a natural extension of Classical Physics. Relativity is a natural extension of Newtonian Mechanics. To claim that new scientific evidence has arisen that completely obliterates a century of established prior science like microbiology is absurd. Anyway, how do you explain the strong regional characteristics of particular sourdough cultures? Or is that a myth too? |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
"Bob" > wrote: > On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:35:18 -0600, "Mike Pearce" > > wrote: > > >> That's the state motto. > > >Actually, it's "Friedship" > > That's the motto for the PRA. In East Texas, the motto is "Don't Mess > With Texas!". If you don't believe me, just start a fight in a bar > around here. You will be lucky to escape with your life before you get > chained to the back of a pickup. > How could I disagree with such a cite of a reference. You must be right. <<Snip>> > > Smartha and his cult fetish groupies have pontificated on several > occasions that airborne organisms do not start sourdough cultures and > that those who believe they do are fools. But then you know that, > since you have read just about every post to this group. > We have a tendency to see what we want to see. I don't see it that way, I guess you do. <<Snip>> > If flour-based organisms are solely responsible for starting sourdough > cultures, then it must take a very special flour to make that happen > as easily as Samartha and his cult fetish groupies maintain. Maybe the > secret is to obtain freshly milled organic flour. It's for sure that > after trying with 4 different kinds of store-bought flours, 2 white > and 2 rye, that there has to be something special about this. My experience has been quite different than yours on this front. > > >What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an > >authority to debunk the idea of flour as the source of sourdough organisms > >yet it seems he is not bright enough to figure out simple weight and > >density. > > You say you have read all the posts on this forum, but it is clear > that you have not read Wood's book. Did you read the thread I began > about Wood's book? > I read Wood's book a number of years ago and have gone back to it a number of times since, most recently yesterday. > Nowhere in his book does he "debunk the idea of flour as the source of > sourdough organisms". I thought I made that abundantly clear in that > thread about his book. Or did you not read this thread. > I stand corrected. What I should have said: "What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an authority "to be used by you as a reference" to debunk the idea of flour as the source of sourdough organisms yet it seems he is not bright enough to figure out simple weight and density." I quote from a previous message of yours: **************** In any event, I am about to put this matter to rest. Please read my new thread entitled: Ed Wood's "Classic Sourdough" where I debunk Samartha and his cult fetish trolls for attempting to deceive us that the only source of organisms in sourdough starters come from the flour. **************** <<SNIP>> > > Anyway, how do you explain the strong regional characteristics of > particular sourdough cultures? Or is that a myth too? > I have no idea. I've not experienced any regional differnces in sourdough, not that I've really gone out of my way or try to research this. There are a lot of factors that go into the flavor of a loaf of bread, the starter being one of them. My understanding is that the combinations of organisms can vary from starter to starter and this can have an impact on the flavor of the final loaf. I wouldn't find it suprising if a particular starter became dominant in a particular region over time by being shared or that a certain technique for making bread became common in a particular area. Both of those things would contribute to "regional" differences that have little to do with organisms native to that region. There are probably a ton of other reasons, like climate, that could account for regional differences that are unrelated to native organisms. The only region that really concerns me when it comes it sourdough is my kitchen. -Mike |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 12:00:14 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
> wrote: >> That's the motto for the PRA. In East Texas, the motto is "Don't Mess >> With Texas!". If you don't believe me, just start a fight in a bar >> around here. You will be lucky to escape with your life before you get >> chained to the back of a pickup. >How could I disagree with such a cite of a reference. You must be right. No cite necessary when you live around here. >My experience has been quite different than yours on this front. Then please share those experiences with us (see below). >> Nowhere in his book does he "debunk the idea of flour as the source of >> sourdough organisms". I thought I made that abundantly clear in that >> thread about his book. Or did you not read this thread. >I stand corrected. What I should have said: > "What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an >authority "to be used by you as a reference" to debunk the idea of flour as >the source of sourdough organisms But he doesn't debunk flour as a possible source of sourdough organisms. Please re-read pages 7 ff. >I've not experienced any regional differnces in sourdough, >not that I've really gone out of my way or try to research this. There are a >lot of factors that go into the flavor of a loaf of bread, the starter being >one of them. My understanding is that the combinations of organisms can vary >from starter to starter and this can have an impact on the flavor of the >final loaf. I wouldn't find it suprising if a particular starter became >dominant in a particular region over time by being shared or that a certain >technique for making bread became common in a particular area. Both of those >things would contribute to "regional" differences that have little to do >with organisms native to that region. There are probably a ton of other >reasons, like climate, that could account for regional differences that are >unrelated to native organisms. The only region that really concerns me when >it comes it sourdough is my kitchen. Are you saying that there is no such thing as a authentic "San Francisco sourdough starter" per se? If so, then why are people marketing starters as "San Francisco sourdough starters"? That reference is made explicitly about the starter, and nothing else. I don't doubt that there are other factors that go into making the bread people refer to as SF-style sourdough. But there are those who would have you believe that there is such as thing as an authentic SF starter. My only issue here is that I am not convinced that flour is the sole contributing factor to starters. However, I am not qualified to make that judgement - for all I know Samartha and his cult are absolutely correct. My objection is in the way such an hypothesis is defended. I guess I was expecting a more scientific approach but that is apparently not possible with artisan bakers. And by "scientific approach" I do not mean the recitation of biology terminology. I mean a consistent rational approach, one which involves critical thinking and not pontification. I just got back from Whole Food Market and they had pretty much what I wanted but only in a whole wheat flour. It is freshly milled (on a weekly basis) and it is organic whole grain flour with everything from the wheat berries present. It has to be reasonably fresh because it is my understanding that real whole wheat contains components that can go rancid with time. I will make a mixture of 75% of this freshly milled organic whole grain flour and 25% Arrowhead whole grain rye I got last week. I will follow the recipe for feeding that comes from both Samartha, the rfs FAQ and the National Baking Center article that the master baker sent me (the one who advocated catching organisms from the environment, even possibly using grapes <yuk>). But I am going to cover it like Samartha and his groupies insist and keep it in an oven with the light on. I will monitor the temperature and record the entire experiment. This is it - if this mixture doesn't start on its own, then something is very wrong here. |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
"Bob" > wrote in message ... > Are you saying that there is no such thing as a authentic "San > Francisco sourdough starter" per se? If so, then why are people > marketing starters as "San Francisco sourdough starters"? That > reference is made explicitly about the starter, and nothing else. snip Bob, People sell SF sourdough starter because there is a market for it. People sell SF starter because there is money in it. People sell SF starter because some(maybe all of it) is produced in SF. However, making a loaf of SF sourdough bread is a learning experience. Many of the people on both bread groups have tried for a long time to duplicate that kind of bread. It isn't necessarily the starter's fault. Just learning to make a loaf of bread that has that kind of crust and that kind of chewy, holey interior is a challenge. Learning to make the loaf sour(no matter what starter you have) can also be a challenge. As to whether or not the organisms that produce a sourdough starter come from the flour or the air, the organisims exist in both places. However, look at it this way. The grain spends the entire growing season out in a field, waving around in the air with those little nifty seed heads providing crevices for air borne organisms to lodge. If you were to bet on the likelyhood of organisms producing a starter, would you place your money on the grain that spent all summer in a field or your jar sitting in your backyard for a day? King Arthur has just put out in new book. The King Arthur Flour Baker's Companion--the All-Purpose Baking Cookbood, published October 2003. On page 274, in a sidebar it says. "Be Patient! If your young starter still doesn't appear active after the first week, don't be discouraged. Simply continue the twice daily feeding schedule. It's not uncommon for sourdough starter to require more than a week to become established. Cool winter temperatures and the absence of wild yeast in your kitchen are factors that extend the time needed for a starter to become mature and ripe. The value of a long, slow process is a central theme in the world of sourdough, and while this may be your first encounter with this theme, it will certainly not be your last. Again and again we are reminded that time is a critical ingredient, with no substitute." (I would imagine that Samartha says to contact him within a certain time frame just to go over your process to see if he can identify something that is being done incorrectly.) Rose Levy Beranbaum has just published The Bread Bible.(September/October 2003) In it on page 426 she says "A sourdough starter often is cultured from wild yeast and the bacteria present on the flour". Peter Reinhart in The Bread Baker's Apprentice (2001) says on page 227 "There are dozens of valid methods for making wild-yeast breads, and every bakery has its own system. Some use a six-build system in which the stater is fed on a very specific schedule at precise times with precise temperatures, building the dough larger and larger volumes until the last "build" serves as the starter for the final dough. The various builds, or elaborations, affect both flavor and structure. Some bakeries use only a simple two-build system, using a large portion(25-35 percent) of the previous batch of final dough as the starter for the next batch. Some systems use a wet-sponge poolish-like starter, while others use a firm biga-like starter, or any combination thereof. Many systems use a combination of wild yeast and commercial yeast(called spiking the dough) to create a hybrid loaf that is flavorful but faster rising and not too sour. Some bakeries use different systems for different breads (firm starter for one, sponge starter for another, spiked method for another), while other bakeries use a single master system and apply it to all of their breads In other words, no single rule governs how to make wild-yeast bread." (This is important to remember when the bread recipe you try doesn't produce the loaf of bread that you are trying to reproduce.) On page 228, he gives his method of producing a seed culture, which he prefaces as follows: "The following method will work with either organic or commercial flour and produces a mother starter, what I fondly call the barm, in 5 to 6 days, depending on the weather." He then proceeds to outline a 4 day method that uses rye flour and high-gluten or bread flour. I could go on and cite many other books and most likely they also would have slightly different takes on how a sourdough starter is achieved. The issue is that you must select a creditable source-- preferably a recent source since so much new information is being provided in books about bread-- and stick with the program and give it a chance. Undoubtedly there will be some here who will think that the source you have chosen is a bunch of junk. . ..live with it, it's no different than some folks perferring a Ford over a Chevy. Since this is a new hobby for you, you also need to do what we all have done--lots of reading. Until you know a lot more and can discern good from bad information, I don't believe that blindly searching the internet for sourdough information is a good idea. Just remember that there are many sources/authorities for training a dog and basically the only thing they agree on is that a dog can be trained. There are many people on both bread groups that are willing to help you. This group is the preferred group for discussion regarding issues with sourdough behavior and how it affects the bread process. Alt.bread.recipes is the place to go for information about bread dough problems. It isn't required that you worship in either place. You have made it pretty clear that you got your nose out of joint by the kinds of responses that you have received. A lot of good people, some professionals, tried to give you advice which you immediately and rudely discounted, sometimes attacking their integrity and professionalism--how do you think they felt about your response? We wouldn't be persuing bread/sourdough bread as a hobby if it didn't have difficult aspects that held the attention. Disparaging that hobby while asking for help means that you have been on the receiving end of an attitude that is either hostile or willing to let you sink or swim on your own. Janet |
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Reluctant Sourdough Starter
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:00:13 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote: >If you were to bet on the >likelyhood of organisms producing a starter, would you place your money on >the grain that spent all summer in a field or your jar sitting in your >backyard for a day? I sure hope so. After considerable effort I have not succeeded. But I do not give up easily. Please see my thread entitled "Natural Starter Experiment" where I am going to take you all thru every step. We're going to conquer this - or have justification for abandoning it. >"Be Patient! If your young starter still >doesn't appear active after the first week, don't be discouraged. Simply >continue the twice daily feeding schedule. It's not uncommon for sourdough >starter to require more than a week to become established. OK, you will have the opportunity to cheer me on when I might not want to continue. I will give you exacting data on a timely basis. You will be a contemporary participant in the entire experiment And if there is more data that you need, I will do my best to provide it. If I screw up and have to begin over, then I will do that. I bought lots of that organic flour today. I want to get to the bottom of this matter once and for all. >Cool winter temperatures I am cultivating the starter in the oven with the light on. Please see the above-referenced thread for data regarding the temperature measured with an accurate thermometer. Anyway, although Houston is currently enjoying a cold snap, it is still rather balmy around here. The folks atKA live in the snowbelt - I don't (thank God). >and the absence of wild yeast in your kitchen The purpose of this experiment is to produce a starter from flour alone, in a covered container in the oven. I was unable to get an open container to start. >The value >of a long, slow process is a central theme in the world of sourdough, and >while this may be your first encounter with this theme, it will certainly >not be your last. I would appreciate your coaching throughout this experiment. >Again and again we are reminded that time is a critical >ingredient, with no substitute." (I would imagine that Samartha says to >contact him within a certain time frame just to go over your process to see >if he can identify something that is being done incorrectly.) I promised no more comments about trolls, either directly or indirectly, and I intend to honor that promise. Please note the remarkable restraint that this Texan is exhibiting for the cause of science. >Rose Levy Beranbaum has just published The Bread Bible.(September/October >2003) In it on page 426 she says "A sourdough starter often is cultured >from wild yeast and the bacteria present on the flour". I hope she is right, for all the effort I have gone thru. >Peter Reinhart in The Bread Baker's Apprentice (2001) says on page 227 >"There are dozens of valid methods for making wild-yeast breads, and every >bakery has its own system. Some use a six-build system in which the stater >is fed on a very specific schedule at precise times with precise >temperatures, building the dough larger and larger volumes until the last >"build" serves as the starter for the final dough. This is the system I have seen most often, including the one in the National Baking Center article that master baker in Houston sent me. >The various builds, or >elaborations, affect both flavor and structure. For the beginner, the word "elaboration" is a technical term that Wood discusses in his book. >Some bakeries use only a >simple two-build system, using a large portion(25-35 percent) of the >previous batch of final dough as the starter for the next batch. Some >systems use a wet-sponge poolish-like starter, while others use a firm >biga-like starter, or any combination thereof. I have read about all three. Which do you recommend? >He then proceeds to outline a 4 day method that >uses rye flour and high-gluten or bread flour. I tried a mix of bread flour and rye flour, both covered and uncovered, and let them go 5 days. Zip. > Since this is a new hobby for you, you also need to do what we all have >done--lots of reading. I have actually done too much reading. It's time to take this to the lab. As they used to say in Marriage Class in college - theory in the classroom, lab in the bushes. >There are many people on both bread groups that are willing to help you. I have not crossposted this - this is a sourdough issue. >A lot of good people, some professionals, tried to give you >advice which you immediately and rudely discounted, sometimes attacking >their integrity and professionalism--how do you think they felt about your >response? War is Hell. What else can I say, other than let's end this war and get down to making a "natural starter", or whatever you want to call it. |
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