Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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  #81 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ellen
 
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"Bob" > wrote in message
...
>
> >Nope. She did it a la Nancy Silverton where you wash the grapes and put
> >them into the flour-water mixture.

>
> I just looked up her book on amazon.com - "Nancy Silverton's Breads
> from the LA Brea Bakery: Recipes for the Connoisseur". I am going to
> order it from the library. I trust this is the definitive reference
> you allude to.


A friend of mine made that starter and sent me some, still using it after 3
years. It's real temperature sensitive and when you feed it, it doesn't
bubble up manically but it sure does make good bread! I really like her
rosemary-olive oil bread.


Ellen


  #82 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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In article >,=20
Bob wrote:

> The one redeeming thing about this hobby is that it is so inexpensive.


Yeah, wow! 137+ messages posted without buying even one=20
postage stamp.

> Where else can you spend hours making something that you can=20
> end up eating (if successful) for only a dollar in components?=20


And, being unsuccessful, you can always eat your starter.

> My wife points out how many times I have thrown away failed=20
> experiments, but I remind her that it only cost me a dollar or so.


So far, so good. But there may one day be the expense of heating
the oven.

---
DickA
(Emeritus Startermucker)




  #83 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve B
 
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Unless, of course, that is the source of one's lack of success.

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

> And, being unsuccessful, you can always eat your starter.



  #84 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On 25 Oct 2003 04:00:11 GMT, Ignoramus785
> wrote:

>Actually, more like a quarter for a normal loaf.


>I make smaller loaves, so mine are maybe 15 cents each.


One of the local grocery stores ran a special on all purpose flour: 29
cents for a 5 lb bag. You can make 10 decent sized loaves with one
bag, so the cost of ingredients would be 3 cents per loaf.


  #85 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:47:35 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>> The one redeeming thing about this hobby is that it is so inexpensive.


>Yeah, wow! 137+ messages posted without buying even one
>postage stamp.


So? At least I am getting my money's worth from that monthly ISP fee I
pay.

BTW, what's a postage stamp? I vaguely recall using something like
that years ago.

>> Where else can you spend hours making something that you can
>> end up eating (if successful) for only a dollar in components?


>And, being unsuccessful, you can always eat your starter.


I was talking about the finished product. The cost of ingredients for
the self starter experiments is negligable.

>> My wife points out how many times I have thrown away failed
>> experiments, but I remind her that it only cost me a dollar or so.


>So far, so good. But there may one day be the expense of heating
>the oven.


I included the cost of heating the oven in the $1 above. I use about 5
cups of flour per batch (3 rather plump baguettes) which costs me
about 50 cents because I use KA bread flour - which is more expensive
than cheap all purpose flour.

Cold season is coming upon us here in Houston, and this one appears to
be a very cold one. Tonight's low is going to be around 42F with
tomorrow's high at 62F - according to the NWS. That is the kind of
temperarute you expect a month from now.

With the price of natural gas so high, having left over oven heat will
be advantageous for my heating bill. If I subtract off the
differential cost of heating the house (gas vs electricity), it might
actually pay me to make bread. So baking bread at home has yet
another benefit - it's effectively free.

Name one other hobby like that. Even chasing after women costs money
and it's not good for your health if your wife finds out.




  #86 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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"Marcella Tracy Peek" > in message =
said to Bob:=20

> Let us know how it goes (with the grape starter). =20


It does seem quite likely he will do just that.

Can you imagine what it will be like here if he succeeds to=20
make some bread?

  #87 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:12:11 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>> Let us know how it goes (with the grape starter).


>It does seem quite likely he will do just that.


>Can you imagine what it will be like here if he succeeds to
>make some bread?


Yeah, imagine that - someone, who is not a member of the psychopath
cult of "experts", actually makes authentic sourdough. And I didn't
even have to bruise my knees falling down to worship at your cult
altar, either.

Imagine someone who could see thru your manifest cult psychosis and
expose you for the frauds you are. Yep, wonders never cease.

  #88 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:47:35 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>And, being unsuccessful, you can always eat your starter.


It's better than snorting it, like you weirdos do.


  #89 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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"Bob" > wrote in message =
...

> [ ... ]


> Yeah, imagine that - someone, who is not a member of the psychopath
> cult of "experts", actually makes authentic sourdough.


Actually?=20

> Imagine someone who could see thru your manifest cult psychosis and
> expose you for the frauds you are. .


One imagines a seriously disturbed person suffering hallucinations. =
(Visions
of "authentic" sourdough loaves arising from the primordial muck.)

> Yep, wonders never cease.


Yep, weeds grow in the garden and microorganisms grow in soggy
flour. Ain't life wonderful?!!!

---
DickA


  #90 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:30:07 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>> Yeah, imagine that - someone, who is not a member of the psychopath
>> cult of "experts", actually makes authentic sourdough.


>Actually?


Yes, actually.

Wanna place a little wager on it?

>One imagines a seriously disturbed person suffering hallucinations.


So you are finally seeking help in psychotherapy. It's about time.

Maybe now you can look forward to having them take off your leg
restraints.




  #91 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:15:39 -0600, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

wrote:
>
>> When creating a starter from scratch with just flour and water you are
>> actually trying to capture the yeast and bacillus from the ambient. But the
>> issue is whether there is yeast and bacillus in YOUR environment.
>>

>
>This is one of the dumbest statements I have seen within the recent
>flatliners here.
>
>Besides the great accomplishment of requoting the long post, just in
>case somebody is unable to get to the previous text.
>
>I would recommend the poster to actually research:
>
>a - what the microorganisms in sourdoughs are
>b - where microorganisms found in sourdough cultures are naturally
>occurring
>c - how they propagate
>d - what the common germs and germ counts in your "ambient" are
>e - what the germs and germ counts in flours are
>f - how they compare
>g - what the infection pressure of "ambient" germs compared to flour
>indigenous CFU's (culture forming units) under consideration of exposed
>area is
>
>And - once you got that figured out, report back and make an actual
>contribution instead of sharing your fantasies.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Samartha



Howdy,

The P.N.Q. (patent nonsense quotient) of the posts to this group has
soared in recent weeks.

For those who are highly experienced, it probably means little; but
the (potential) effect on beginners concerns me.

For those starting out particularly:

Few posts here (or anywhere else for that matter) are as valuable as
those offered by Samartha.

He knows his stuff from extensive experience. He knows the science
(and there is lots of it to know). He is most generous sharing his
knowledge both here and at his excellent site.

I have been baking for over forty years and have learned much from his
comments.

If you want to improve your sourdough baking, learn what you can from
Samartha's comments, and from those many others who know what they are
talking about.

If you just want to enjoy the show, I'll happily join you. In a
perverse way it certainly is fun. But please don't confuse the
performance with sound reasoning, and baking expertise...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #92 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:49:33 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>Few posts here (or anywhere else for that matter) are as valuable as
>those offered by Samartha.


Don't bruise your forehead on the floor as you worship at his cult
altar.

>He knows his stuff from extensive experience. He knows the science
>(and there is lots of it to know). He is most generous sharing his
>knowledge both here and at his excellent site.


If you call that unprofessional condescending sarcasm he emits
"generous sharing" you are sick.

You cultists are all sick. Normal people do not behave like this.

  #93 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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"Bob" > wrote in message =
...

> Yes, actually ("Bob" makes authentic sourdough - presumably bread

although the only news we have is about failed starter).

> Wanna place a little wager on it?


OK, but who is going to be the referee? Samartha is the only person
around here that knows anything according to Kenneth, but according
to "Bob" he is nuts.

Sometimes it is possible to resolve such matters with photographs,
but almost no one, including Kenneth, knows how to make those.

---
DickA




  #95 (permalink)   Report Post  
Johan
 
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Kenneth > wrote in
:

> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:15:39 -0600, Samartha Deva
> > wrote:


<snips Samartha's unworthy flaming>

>>Besides the great accomplishment of requoting the long post, just in
>>case somebody is unable to get to the previous text.
>>
>>I would recommend the poster to actually research:
>>
>>a - what the microorganisms in sourdoughs are
>>b - where microorganisms found in sourdough cultures are naturally
>>occurring
>>c - how they propagate
>>d - what the common germs and germ counts in your "ambient" are
>>e - what the germs and germ counts in flours are
>>f - how they compare
>>g - what the infection pressure of "ambient" germs compared to flour
>>indigenous CFU's (culture forming units) under consideration of
>>exposed area is


<snip>

> The P.N.Q. (patent nonsense quotient) of the posts to this group has
> soared in recent weeks.
>
> For those who are highly experienced, it probably means little; but
> the (potential) effect on beginners concerns me.
>
> For those starting out particularly:
>
> Few posts here (or anywhere else for that matter) are as valuable as
> those offered by Samartha.
>
> He knows his stuff from extensive experience. He knows the science
> (and there is lots of it to know). He is most generous sharing his
> knowledge both here and at his excellent site.
>
> I have been baking for over forty years and have learned much from his
> comments.
>
> If you want to improve your sourdough baking, learn what you can from
> Samartha's comments, and from those many others who know what they are
> talking about.


<snip>

Excuse me, you write this praise of Samartha's helpfulness as a comment to
a post where he only shares his questions, not his knowledge. That's the
same pontificating way Bob has been treated from the beginning, by some of
the regulars. However irritating they find him, it would have been to the
benefit for all who visit this newsgroup if his questions had been answered
and his worries been met with patience. Never mind Bob's posting style.

Johan


  #96 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:36:26 GMT, Johan > wrote:

>Excuse me, you write this praise of Samartha's helpfulness as a comment to
>a post ..


Hi Johan,

In the literal sense, you are correct...

My intent was not to respond to a particular "post" but rather the
larger context of the last few weeks.

All the best,


--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #97 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:11:32 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>> Yes, actually ("Bob" makes authentic sourdough - presumably bread

>although the only news we have is about failed starter).


>> Wanna place a little wager on it?


>OK, but who is going to be the referee?


Are you saying you don't trust me to report the truth on my own?


  #98 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:36:26 GMT, Johan > wrote:

>Never mind Bob's posting style.


You clearly came in late. If you had come in at the beginning the
complete record would be front of youYou would see for yourself that I
was attacked first - and for absolutely no good reason.

Anyway Bob's posting style is Pure Texan. Don't you know the Texas
Motto: "Don't Mess With Texas!"

As a Texan I am one of the friendliest people you will ever meet, and
I mean that sincerely. In fact,the name "Texas" comes from the Indian
word "Tejas" which means "friendly".

Unless absolutely necessary, we don't even blow our horns in traffic,
like most other people do - it's considered rude. If someone is
dawdling at a stoplight which turns gree, the most you will hear is a
couple of slight "toots" to remind the guy it's time to go. Try that
in New Yawk - where there is every possibility you could love life and
limb if you do move out the instant the light turns green.

There is one thing, however, you never want to do, and that is to ****
off a Texan. They can become as mean and ornery as a rattlesnake when
provoked. Behave in a civilized manner and Texans will treat you as a
civlilized person.

  #99 (permalink)   Report Post  
Johan
 
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(Bob) wrote in news:3f9ad525.940702@news-
server.houston.rr.com:

> On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:36:26 GMT, Johan > wrote:
>
>>Never mind Bob's posting style.

>
> You clearly came in late. If you had come in at the beginning the
> complete record would be front of youYou would see for yourself that I
> was attacked first - and for absolutely no good reason.


It seems that you misunderstand me. I did not come in late. My point was
that your (apparently annoying) posting style isn't a good reason for
mobbing you. If your opponents cannot see any other good motif for
refraining from this, they could at least think of other visitors and
regulars of the newsgroup.

On the other hand, you could give a contribution too, to a more
constructive situation, by calming down one or two notches. "Don't Mess
With Texas!" - I mean, get some perspective, we are writing posts in a
forum about sourdough...

Regards
Johan

> Anyway Bob's posting style is Pure Texan. Don't you know the Texas
> Motto: "Don't Mess With Texas!"
>
> As a Texan I am one of the friendliest people you will ever meet, and
> I mean that sincerely. In fact,the name "Texas" comes from the Indian
> word "Tejas" which means "friendly".
>
> Unless absolutely necessary, we don't even blow our horns in traffic,
> like most other people do - it's considered rude. If someone is
> dawdling at a stoplight which turns gree, the most you will hear is a
> couple of slight "toots" to remind the guy it's time to go. Try that
> in New Yawk - where there is every possibility you could love life and
> limb if you do move out the instant the light turns green.
>
> There is one thing, however, you never want to do, and that is to ****
> off a Texan. They can become as mean and ornery as a rattlesnake when
> provoked. Behave in a civilized manner and Texans will treat you as a
> civlilized person.
>
>


  #100 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:56:33 GMT, Johan > wrote:

>On the other hand, you could give a contribution too, to a more
>constructive situation, by calming down one or two notches. "Don't Mess
>With Texas!"


That's the state motto.

>I mean, get some perspective, we are writing posts in a
>forum about sourdough...


You sure could have fooled me. The very first post was attacked with
no justification if this is a forum about sourdough. In fact, it is a
hangout for cult fetish trolls who try to cover up for their miserable
existence by jumping neophytes. People posting to a forum on sourdough
do not behave that way.

In any event, I am about to put this matter to rest. Please read my
new thread entitled:

Ed Wood's "Classic Sourdough"

where I debunk Samartha and his cult fetish trolls for attempting to
deceive us that the only source of organisms in sourdough starters
come from the flour.

It may very well be true that in certain circumstances there are
organisms in flour (Wood suggests freshly ground organic flour), and
that one can make a starter from those organisms. But to claim, as
Samartha and his cult groupies do, that airborne starter organisms are
a myth, and anyone who believes in them is a fool, is the height of
arrogance and needs to be debunked.

Once we get this matter resolved, I will killfile the entire lot of
these cult fetish trolls. They will have become irrelevant and
therefore indulging their continued fakery is a waste of time.

On another matter of considerable controversy around here, Wood has
some rather pointed comments to make about weighing versus using cups
to measure ingredients. He says he uses cups except when he needs more
exacting measurements, which he doesn't describe.

This weight measurement thing is another of the cult fetishes that
needs to be debunked, but I am not going to waste my time doing it. If
Ed Wood, a world-renouned sourdough baker, uses cup measures in
routine bread making, then that is good enough for me.

Wood is wrong when he claims that weighing compensates for humidity
pickup. In fact weighing acts to exacerbate the humidity pickup
problem. But that's another issue - one that can be easily resolved
with a few minutes critical thinking once you realize that flour is
less dense than water.




  #101 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Pearce
 
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"Bob" > wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:56:33 GMT, Johan > wrote:
>
> >On the other hand, you could give a contribution too, to a more
> >constructive situation, by calming down one or two notches. "Don't Mess
> >With Texas!"

>
> That's the state motto.


Actually, it's "Friedship"

See: http://castor.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/symbols.html or you can work
your way to the same place from www.texas.gov

>
> Ed Wood's "Classic Sourdough"
>
> where I debunk Samartha and his cult fetish trolls for attempting to
> deceive us that the only source of organisms in sourdough starters
> come from the flour.
>
> It may very well be true that in certain circumstances there are
> organisms in flour (Wood suggests freshly ground organic flour), and
> that one can make a starter from those organisms. But to claim, as
> Samartha and his cult groupies do, that airborne starter organisms are
> a myth, and anyone who believes in them is a fool, is the height of
> arrogance and needs to be debunked.
>


I've read, with great interest, just about every post to this group for the
last couple of years or so. I've also, on many occasions, gone back and
searched the archives when was looking for conversation on a particular
aspect of sourdough. I don't recall anyone ever stating the the "only"
source of the organisms found in sourdough starters comes from flour. What I
have read is that it is high unlikely (virtually impossible), given the high
quantitiy of these organisms present in the flour, that another source would
acutally be providing these organisms to the starter.

I believe you may have built yourself a straw man.


> Wood is wrong when he claims that weighing compensates for humidity
> pickup. In fact weighing acts to exacerbate the humidity pickup
> problem. But that's another issue - one that can be easily resolved
> with a few minutes critical thinking once you realize that flour is
> less dense than water.
>


What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an
authority to debunk the idea of flour as the source of sourdough organisms
yet it seems he is not bright enough to figure out simple weight and
density.

-Mike



  #102 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:35:18 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
> wrote:

>> That's the state motto.


>Actually, it's "Friedship"


That's the motto for the PRA. In East Texas, the motto is "Don't Mess
With Texas!". If you don't believe me, just start a fight in a bar
around here. You will be lucky to escape with your life before you get
chained to the back of a pickup.

>I've read, with great interest, just about every post to this group for the
>last couple of years or so. I've also, on many occasions, gone back and
>searched the archives when was looking for conversation on a particular
>aspect of sourdough. I don't recall anyone ever stating the the "only"
>source of the organisms found in sourdough starters comes from flour. What I
>have read is that it is high unlikely (virtually impossible), given the high
>quantitiy of these organisms present in the flour, that another source would
>acutally be providing these organisms to the starter.


Smartha and his cult fetish groupies have pontificated on several
occasions that airborne organisms do not start sourdough cultures and
that those who believe they do are fools. But then you know that,
since you have read just about every post to this group.

>I believe you may have built yourself a straw man.


I am building nothing. I am merely attempting to debunk a cultish
fetish. I actually wish Samartha was correct, for reasons stated
earlier. I am the one who faithfully followed his proscriptions, until
it became obvious I had been suckered into a merry chase.

If flour-based organisms are solely responsible for starting sourdough
cultures, then it must take a very special flour to make that happen
as easily as Samartha and his cult fetish groupies maintain. Maybe the
secret is to obtain freshly milled organic flour. It's for sure that
after trying with 4 different kinds of store-bought flours, 2 white
and 2 rye, that there has to be something special about this.

>What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an
>authority to debunk the idea of flour as the source of sourdough organisms
>yet it seems he is not bright enough to figure out simple weight and
>density.


You say you have read all the posts on this forum, but it is clear
that you have not read Wood's book. Did you read the thread I began
about Wood's book?

Nowhere in his book does he "debunk the idea of flour as the source of
sourdough organisms". I thought I made that abundantly clear in that
thread about his book. Or did you not read this thread.

He deliberately stays clear of making a pronouncement on that issue.
That tells me that he is willing to accept the possibility that
flour-based organisms could be a source of starter organisms. I wish
it were true.

But Wood (and many others including me) are unwilling to go so far as
to insist, as Samartha and his cult groupies do, that such
consideration rules out airborne starter organisms. And to label
people who believe in the existence of airborne starter organisms as
"fools who believe in myths" is downright unprofessional in light of
the considerable evidence to the contrary - Wood the sourdough baker
being one example of such evidence.

In true science each advance in knowledge is an extension of prior
knowledge. Quantum Mechanics is a natural extension of Classical
Physics. Relativity is a natural extension of Newtonian Mechanics. To
claim that new scientific evidence has arisen that completely
obliterates a century of established prior science like microbiology
is absurd.

Anyway, how do you explain the strong regional characteristics of
particular sourdough cultures? Or is that a myth too?


  #103 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Pearce
 
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"Bob" > wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:35:18 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
> > wrote:
>
> >> That's the state motto.

>
> >Actually, it's "Friedship"

>
> That's the motto for the PRA. In East Texas, the motto is "Don't Mess
> With Texas!". If you don't believe me, just start a fight in a bar
> around here. You will be lucky to escape with your life before you get
> chained to the back of a pickup.
>


How could I disagree with such a cite of a reference. You must be right.


<<Snip>>

>
> Smartha and his cult fetish groupies have pontificated on several
> occasions that airborne organisms do not start sourdough cultures and
> that those who believe they do are fools. But then you know that,
> since you have read just about every post to this group.
>


We have a tendency to see what we want to see. I don't see it that way, I
guess you do.

<<Snip>>

> If flour-based organisms are solely responsible for starting sourdough
> cultures, then it must take a very special flour to make that happen
> as easily as Samartha and his cult fetish groupies maintain. Maybe the
> secret is to obtain freshly milled organic flour. It's for sure that
> after trying with 4 different kinds of store-bought flours, 2 white
> and 2 rye, that there has to be something special about this.


My experience has been quite different than yours on this front.


>
> >What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an
> >authority to debunk the idea of flour as the source of sourdough

organisms
> >yet it seems he is not bright enough to figure out simple weight and
> >density.

>
> You say you have read all the posts on this forum, but it is clear
> that you have not read Wood's book. Did you read the thread I began
> about Wood's book?
>


I read Wood's book a number of years ago and have gone back to it a number
of times since, most recently yesterday.


> Nowhere in his book does he "debunk the idea of flour as the source of
> sourdough organisms". I thought I made that abundantly clear in that
> thread about his book. Or did you not read this thread.
>


I stand corrected. What I should have said:

"What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an
authority "to be used by you as a reference" to debunk the idea of flour as
the source of sourdough organisms
yet it seems he is not bright enough to figure out simple weight and
density."

I quote from a previous message of yours:

****************
In any event, I am about to put this matter to rest. Please read my
new thread entitled:

Ed Wood's "Classic Sourdough"

where I debunk Samartha and his cult fetish trolls for attempting to
deceive us that the only source of organisms in sourdough starters
come from the flour.

****************


<<SNIP>>


>
> Anyway, how do you explain the strong regional characteristics of
> particular sourdough cultures? Or is that a myth too?
>


I have no idea. I've not experienced any regional differnces in sourdough,
not that I've really gone out of my way or try to research this. There are a
lot of factors that go into the flavor of a loaf of bread, the starter being
one of them. My understanding is that the combinations of organisms can vary
from starter to starter and this can have an impact on the flavor of the
final loaf. I wouldn't find it suprising if a particular starter became
dominant in a particular region over time by being shared or that a certain
technique for making bread became common in a particular area. Both of those
things would contribute to "regional" differences that have little to do
with organisms native to that region. There are probably a ton of other
reasons, like climate, that could account for regional differences that are
unrelated to native organisms. The only region that really concerns me when
it comes it sourdough is my kitchen.

-Mike



  #104 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default Reluctant Sourdough Starter

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 12:00:14 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
> wrote:

>> That's the motto for the PRA. In East Texas, the motto is "Don't Mess
>> With Texas!". If you don't believe me, just start a fight in a bar
>> around here. You will be lucky to escape with your life before you get
>> chained to the back of a pickup.


>How could I disagree with such a cite of a reference. You must be right.


No cite necessary when you live around here.

>My experience has been quite different than yours on this front.


Then please share those experiences with us (see below).

>> Nowhere in his book does he "debunk the idea of flour as the source of
>> sourdough organisms". I thought I made that abundantly clear in that
>> thread about his book. Or did you not read this thread.


>I stand corrected. What I should have said:


> "What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an
>authority "to be used by you as a reference" to debunk the idea of flour as
>the source of sourdough organisms


But he doesn't debunk flour as a possible source of sourdough
organisms. Please re-read pages 7 ff.

>I've not experienced any regional differnces in sourdough,
>not that I've really gone out of my way or try to research this. There are a
>lot of factors that go into the flavor of a loaf of bread, the starter being
>one of them. My understanding is that the combinations of organisms can vary
>from starter to starter and this can have an impact on the flavor of the
>final loaf. I wouldn't find it suprising if a particular starter became
>dominant in a particular region over time by being shared or that a certain
>technique for making bread became common in a particular area. Both of those
>things would contribute to "regional" differences that have little to do
>with organisms native to that region. There are probably a ton of other
>reasons, like climate, that could account for regional differences that are
>unrelated to native organisms. The only region that really concerns me when
>it comes it sourdough is my kitchen.


Are you saying that there is no such thing as a authentic "San
Francisco sourdough starter" per se? If so, then why are people
marketing starters as "San Francisco sourdough starters"? That
reference is made explicitly about the starter, and nothing else.

I don't doubt that there are other factors that go into making the
bread people refer to as SF-style sourdough. But there are those who
would have you believe that there is such as thing as an authentic SF
starter.

My only issue here is that I am not convinced that flour is the sole
contributing factor to starters. However, I am not qualified to make
that judgement - for all I know Samartha and his cult are absolutely
correct. My objection is in the way such an hypothesis is defended. I
guess I was expecting a more scientific approach but that is
apparently not possible with artisan bakers. And by "scientific
approach" I do not mean the recitation of biology terminology. I mean
a consistent rational approach, one which involves critical thinking
and not pontification.

I just got back from Whole Food Market and they had pretty much what I
wanted but only in a whole wheat flour. It is freshly milled (on a
weekly basis) and it is organic whole grain flour with everything from
the wheat berries present. It has to be reasonably fresh because it is
my understanding that real whole wheat contains components that can go
rancid with time.

I will make a mixture of 75% of this freshly milled organic whole
grain flour and 25% Arrowhead whole grain rye I got last week. I will
follow the recipe for feeding that comes from both Samartha, the rfs
FAQ and the National Baking Center article that the master baker sent
me (the one who advocated catching organisms from the environment,
even possibly using grapes <yuk>). But I am going to cover it like
Samartha and his groupies insist and keep it in an oven with the light
on. I will monitor the temperature and record the entire experiment.

This is it - if this mixture doesn't start on its own, then something
is very wrong here.


  #105 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Reluctant Sourdough Starter


"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> Are you saying that there is no such thing as a authentic "San
> Francisco sourdough starter" per se? If so, then why are people
> marketing starters as "San Francisco sourdough starters"? That
> reference is made explicitly about the starter, and nothing else.

snip
Bob,
People sell SF sourdough starter because there is a market for it. People
sell SF starter because there is money in it. People sell SF starter
because some(maybe all of it) is produced in SF. However, making a loaf of
SF sourdough bread is a learning experience. Many of the people on both
bread groups have tried for a long time to duplicate that kind of bread. It
isn't necessarily the starter's fault. Just learning to make a loaf of
bread that has that kind of crust and that kind of chewy, holey interior is
a challenge. Learning to make the loaf sour(no matter what starter you
have) can also be a challenge.

As to whether or not the organisms that produce a sourdough starter come
from the flour or the air, the organisims exist in both places. However,
look at it this way. The grain spends the entire growing season out in a
field, waving around in the air with those little nifty seed heads providing
crevices for air borne organisms to lodge. If you were to bet on the
likelyhood of organisms producing a starter, would you place your money on
the grain that spent all summer in a field or your jar sitting in your
backyard for a day?

King Arthur has just put out in new book. The King Arthur Flour Baker's
Companion--the All-Purpose Baking Cookbood, published October 2003. On page
274, in a sidebar it says. "Be Patient! If your young starter still
doesn't appear active after the first week, don't be discouraged. Simply
continue the twice daily feeding schedule. It's not uncommon for sourdough
starter to require more than a week to become established. Cool winter
temperatures and the absence of wild yeast in your kitchen are factors that
extend the time needed for a starter to become mature and ripe. The value
of a long, slow process is a central theme in the world of sourdough, and
while this may be your first encounter with this theme, it will certainly
not be your last. Again and again we are reminded that time is a critical
ingredient, with no substitute." (I would imagine that Samartha says to
contact him within a certain time frame just to go over your process to see
if he can identify something that is being done incorrectly.)

Rose Levy Beranbaum has just published The Bread Bible.(September/October
2003) In it on page 426 she says "A sourdough starter often is cultured
from wild yeast and the bacteria present on the flour".

Peter Reinhart in The Bread Baker's Apprentice (2001) says on page 227
"There are dozens of valid methods for making wild-yeast breads, and every
bakery has its own system. Some use a six-build system in which the stater
is fed on a very specific schedule at precise times with precise
temperatures, building the dough larger and larger volumes until the last
"build" serves as the starter for the final dough. The various builds, or
elaborations, affect both flavor and structure. Some bakeries use only a
simple two-build system, using a large portion(25-35 percent) of the
previous batch of final dough as the starter for the next batch. Some
systems use a wet-sponge poolish-like starter, while others use a firm
biga-like starter, or any combination thereof. Many systems use a
combination of wild yeast and commercial yeast(called spiking the dough) to
create a hybrid loaf that is flavorful but faster rising and not too sour.
Some bakeries use different systems for different breads (firm starter for
one, sponge starter for another, spiked method for another), while other
bakeries use a single master system and apply it to all of their breads In
other words, no single rule governs how to make wild-yeast bread." (This is
important to remember when the bread recipe you try doesn't produce the loaf
of bread that you are trying to reproduce.) On page 228, he gives his
method of producing a seed culture, which he prefaces as follows: "The
following method will work with either organic or commercial flour and
produces a mother starter, what I fondly call the barm, in 5 to 6 days,
depending on the weather." He then proceeds to outline a 4 day method that
uses rye flour and high-gluten or bread flour.

I could go on and cite many other books and most likely they also would have
slightly different takes on how a sourdough starter is achieved. The issue
is that you must select a creditable source-- preferably a recent source
since so much new information is being provided in books about bread-- and
stick with the program and give it a chance. Undoubtedly there will be some
here who will think that the source you have chosen is a bunch of junk. .
..live with it, it's no different than some folks perferring a Ford over a
Chevy.

Since this is a new hobby for you, you also need to do what we all have
done--lots of reading. Until you know a lot more and can discern good from
bad information, I don't believe that blindly searching the internet for
sourdough information is a good idea. Just remember that there are many
sources/authorities for training a dog and basically the only thing they
agree on is that a dog can be trained.

There are many people on both bread groups that are willing to help you.
This group is the preferred group for discussion regarding issues with
sourdough behavior and how it affects the bread process. Alt.bread.recipes
is the place to go for information about bread dough problems. It isn't
required that you worship in either place. You have made it pretty clear
that you got your nose out of joint by the kinds of responses that you have
received. A lot of good people, some professionals, tried to give you
advice which you immediately and rudely discounted, sometimes attacking
their integrity and professionalism--how do you think they felt about your
response? We wouldn't be persuing bread/sourdough bread as a hobby if it
didn't have difficult aspects that held the attention. Disparaging that
hobby while asking for help means that you have been on the receiving end of
an attitude that is either hostile or willing to let you sink or swim on
your own.

Janet




  #106 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default Reluctant Sourdough Starter

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:00:13 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

>If you were to bet on the
>likelyhood of organisms producing a starter, would you place your money on
>the grain that spent all summer in a field or your jar sitting in your
>backyard for a day?


I sure hope so. After considerable effort I have not succeeded. But I
do not give up easily. Please see my thread entitled "Natural Starter
Experiment" where I am going to take you all thru every step. We're
going to conquer this - or have justification for abandoning it.

>"Be Patient! If your young starter still
>doesn't appear active after the first week, don't be discouraged. Simply
>continue the twice daily feeding schedule. It's not uncommon for sourdough
>starter to require more than a week to become established.


OK, you will have the opportunity to cheer me on when I might not want
to continue. I will give you exacting data on a timely basis. You will
be a contemporary participant in the entire experiment

And if there is more data that you need, I will do my best to provide
it. If I screw up and have to begin over, then I will do that. I
bought lots of that organic flour today.

I want to get to the bottom of this matter once and for all.

>Cool winter temperatures


I am cultivating the starter in the oven with the light on. Please see
the above-referenced thread for data regarding the temperature
measured with an accurate thermometer.

Anyway, although Houston is currently enjoying a cold snap, it is
still rather balmy around here. The folks atKA live in the snowbelt -
I don't (thank God).

>and the absence of wild yeast in your kitchen


The purpose of this experiment is to produce a starter from flour
alone, in a covered container in the oven. I was unable to get an open
container to start.

>The value
>of a long, slow process is a central theme in the world of sourdough, and
>while this may be your first encounter with this theme, it will certainly
>not be your last.


I would appreciate your coaching throughout this experiment.

>Again and again we are reminded that time is a critical
>ingredient, with no substitute." (I would imagine that Samartha says to
>contact him within a certain time frame just to go over your process to see
>if he can identify something that is being done incorrectly.)


I promised no more comments about trolls, either directly or
indirectly, and I intend to honor that promise.

Please note the remarkable restraint that this Texan is exhibiting for
the cause of science.

>Rose Levy Beranbaum has just published The Bread Bible.(September/October
>2003) In it on page 426 she says "A sourdough starter often is cultured
>from wild yeast and the bacteria present on the flour".


I hope she is right, for all the effort I have gone thru.

>Peter Reinhart in The Bread Baker's Apprentice (2001) says on page 227
>"There are dozens of valid methods for making wild-yeast breads, and every
>bakery has its own system. Some use a six-build system in which the stater
>is fed on a very specific schedule at precise times with precise
>temperatures, building the dough larger and larger volumes until the last
>"build" serves as the starter for the final dough.


This is the system I have seen most often, including the one in the
National Baking Center article that master baker in Houston sent me.

>The various builds, or
>elaborations, affect both flavor and structure.


For the beginner, the word "elaboration" is a technical term that Wood
discusses in his book.

>Some bakeries use only a
>simple two-build system, using a large portion(25-35 percent) of the
>previous batch of final dough as the starter for the next batch. Some
>systems use a wet-sponge poolish-like starter, while others use a firm
>biga-like starter, or any combination thereof.


I have read about all three. Which do you recommend?

>He then proceeds to outline a 4 day method that
>uses rye flour and high-gluten or bread flour.


I tried a mix of bread flour and rye flour, both covered and
uncovered, and let them go 5 days.

Zip.

> Since this is a new hobby for you, you also need to do what we all have
>done--lots of reading.


I have actually done too much reading. It's time to take this to the
lab.

As they used to say in Marriage Class in college - theory in the
classroom, lab in the bushes.

>There are many people on both bread groups that are willing to help you.


I have not crossposted this - this is a sourdough issue.

>A lot of good people, some professionals, tried to give you
>advice which you immediately and rudely discounted, sometimes attacking
>their integrity and professionalism--how do you think they felt about your
>response?


War is Hell.

What else can I say, other than let's end this war and get down to
making a "natural starter", or whatever you want to call it.

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