Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On 10 Oct 2003 16:52:04 -0700, (Roy Basan) wrote:

>> How could you possibly interpret my original post as "frantic"? <jeez>


>You posted your question twice for emphasis....


I did not do that deliberately.

When I first posted the question, my ISP was under attack by hackers.
Lord only knows what happened in Austin where the NOC is located.
Since then I have been having problems with various NGs.

Time Warner, the owners of Road Runner Cable, were bought out by AOL.
As everyone knows, the only purpose AOL has in life is to wreck
everything it gets its hands on - and Road Runner is no exception.

Now we have to put up with hacker attacks whenever they target AOL. If
you were a hacker and you wanted the largest possible response to your
malicious attacks, you would surely pick AOL members as your target,
because as a class of Internet users they are the dumbest people
around. If you ever wondered where people with double-digit IQs go to
use the Internet, AOL is the place.

For example, anyone with an IQ higher than that of a warm kumquat
knows better than to open an email attachment from a stranger. But not
AOL members - they blithely open anything from anyone and then all
Hell breaks loose. The attack the other day flooded the AOL Time
Warner Road Runner Cable subnet with millions of packets, which in
turn created a 'denial of service' problem. I could not even send mail
because the SMTP servers were being bombarded by packets from AOL
idiots.

  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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[ R.F.S. only. NOT CROSSPOSTED ]

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message =
...

> (Joe's stuff) is total baloney - he does not sterilize the flour he is =


> using to "catch".


The requirement for sterilizing the flour is pretty much unique with
you (Samartha), but possibly needed for whole grain flour, which
can be quite dirty.

Branded white flour from a newly-opened sack is probably sterile
enough, but it would be good to run a control. In this case, for=20
batter exposed to the air, a similar batter in a covered container
would be good. (I continue to adhere to my theory that sniffing
is a major item when it comes to the inoculation of atmospheric
cultures. So, for any one doing this experiment, you might include
a sniffed control as well.)=20

> Any regular participant on this forum (r.f.s) knows this by now
> and newcomers are encouraged to get familiar with the basics,=20
> i. e. germ counts of colony building units in grain products and=20
> use common sense.


Well, yes and no. It is nice when the newcomers get some speed=20
by reading some FAQs before they jump in, but I don't think that=20
familiarity with jargon like "colony forming units", and with the=20
statistics of such things, should need to be a requirement.

I am not sure what you get from cross posting your stuff?

It is difficult to know what motivates such posters as "Bob". I=20
would like to suggest that one-name newbies and those using=20
handles rather than names, especially where no email address is=20
given and/or where gross etiquette infractions like cross-posting=20
are perpetrated, simply be ignored if they persist after=20
appropriate kindly advice is given.

By the way, "Bob", if you are paying attention to any of this, one=20
good reason that loaves having the shape of baguettes have=20
trouble being chewy is that they have an extraordinarily high=20
surface to volume ratio, and thus they dry out very rapidly. =20
Also to be noted: there is a huge difference between a baguette-
shaped loaf and a French baguette. French baguettes are made in=20
France by French people, and are almost impossible to duplicate=20
without the stuff they have in France, like poor flour and age-
old wood-fired ovens. For one thing, French baguettes are=20
typically about a meter long and your oven is too short for that. =20
And they are a whole lot more crunchy than chewy.

(Today's French, I understand, are having trouble finding authentic
baguettes because of the recent introduction of modern mass=20
production techniques in many French bakeries. Curiously, the
baguette, which became common in France about half way through
the last century, represented a means to achieve better bakery=20
efficiency -- it baked rapidly on account of its large surface and
small volume so that its production time could be as short as five
hours.)

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com=20




  #44 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On 11 Oct 2003 10:46:55 GMT, pamnone (Wcsjohn) wrote:

>There is certain to be a choice of rye flours in the King Arthur catalogue - although
>you may find the shipping costs daunting.


I would prefer to buy locally.

>Google should be able to track down
>sources of rye flour if you search on "rye flour" and your state.


I did just that before I posted this (except I used 'Houston') and
there was not much. Apparently local vendors do not put such obscure
products in their websites.

>You may find a small independent miller near you.


Not in Houston. But we do have several health food stores so I will
try there. I will also look for genuine official san francisco
sourdough starter. Health nuts are into bread making since they don't
trust store bread.

Can't say I blame them either - the thought of eating a slice of that
horrible crap they pawn off as packaged 'bread' nauseates me. The sole
exception is when the store has a large bakery.

Speaking of uses for my bread, one of my favorites is to make a
sandwich called a "po boy", which is Louisiana slack-jaw for "poor
boy". It is a submarine style sandwich which features such things as
fried catfish or fried oysters. Some genuine New Orleans brand
mayonaisse (Blue Plate) and some sliced dill pickles and a little
lettuce and you have a complete meal that the coon-asses claim is one
of the major food groups.

But if you try to make that sandwich with packaged bread you will have
ruined otherwise good catfish or oysters.

>All this is a pain in the arse but the
>increase in flavour of the final bread makes it, IMHO, worthwhile.


I definitely want to try it - it can't cost more than a couple of
dollars, and I also can use the flour to make a different kind of
bread. Anyone for "Chewy Rye Sourdough Baguettes".

(That ought to get the trolls aggitated something fierce. :-)


  #45 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On 11 Oct 2003 11:28:03 GMT, pamnone (Wcsjohn) wrote:

>Now there is an example of gross, unhelpful stereotyping. Saying all AOL
>members are stupid is as accurate as saying everyone from Texas eats 32 ounce
>steaks with 6 fried eggs for breakfast after wrestling a couple of steers and
>capping a gusher.


I see you have been to Texas :-)

That's just the minimal breakfast, one you have to put up with when
you are on a diet.

>I'm an AOL member, despite finding AOL's imperialist values nauseating because,
>in the UK, I can't get broadband any cheaper but I don't open unsoilicited
>emails, my firewall is kept at high security despite the connectivity problems
>this can cause and my machine is clean. And my IQ is that of a very hot room
>indeed.


I was referring to a certain class of AOL users in the US - the ones
who open attachments from strangers.

>What do you hope to achieve by such abrasive attitude?


Chill.

>You came onto this list
>looking for information, ostensibly, and you have now made sure that no list
>member who uses AOL will give you the time of day.


Chill.

>You may despise the goose grease of politeness, as in truth do I, but in
>purely pragmatic terms you will obtain more information and help if you
>moderate your aggression and impatience.


Chill!

>Here endeth the lesson.


I am not sure exactly what you are referring to. I will tell you that
most people who are not on AOL in the US despise AOL because it is so
disruptive. In the past couple of years AOL has caused the rest of the
Internet many problems as the morons screw things up.

In fact, AOL has such a poor reputation in America that Time Warner
board members insisted that AOL's name not be included on the new
headquarters building. Even Time Warner despises AOL.

You have the same thing happening with your large ISP called Demon. I
correspond daily with several British people and they are constantly
having problems with Demon. One day people are going to have the same
disgust with it as we have with AOL over here.

>If you want information and help with breadmaking I will happily accomodate
>you, that is the purpose of this list,


Chill!

> but you are one step away from being
>killfiled by everybody who may be able to help make the bread you want.


You mean everyone else is on AOL too? Maybe they have a better sense
of humor.




  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
gw
 
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Bob, there are some really great health food stores in Houston, and I
believe there are besides Sun Harvest, at least one Whole Foods Market, and
an HEB Central Market. All of these will have rye flour of the type useful
to bread making. Whole Foods and Sun Harvest both carry it in bins. The
health food stores will carry it in small bags, as will Sun Harvest, from
Arrowhead Mills, labeled Stone ground.

One of the best starters I have used for Poilane bread began with a handful
(one cup) of cracked rye I purchased for 67 cents from Whole Foods. I think
the recipe for this was in Reinharts book BBA, but it could easily have been
in Glezer's Baking in America. Sorry, I can't remember which one.
Hope this helps.
gw
"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> On 10 Oct 2003 21:03:29 GMT, pamnone (Wcsjohn) wrote:
>
> >>How much rye flour do I use per cup of KA bread flour?

>
> >For "white breads" baguettes for example I use 2% of the total flour

weight ,
> >all of it in the starter. For bread with a proportion of wheatmeal, I

will add
> >5% again all in the starter.

>
> I tried to find rye flour at two large supermarket chains that have
> substantial flour sections and there was none to be found.
>
> Can you give me a popular brand name so I can look further.
>



  #50 (permalink)   Report Post  
Samartha Deva
 
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[ R.F.S. only. NOT CROSSPOSTED ] (I love it!)

Dick Adams wrote:

> The requirement for sterilizing the flour is pretty much unique with
> you (Samartha),


The issue I labeled as "baloney" was the "catch air" sourdough organisms
method using flour.

You don't seem get it (for whichever reason) - if you want to "catch"
any local organisms floating in air or being attached to floating
particles like dust, you sure as hell would need something totally free
of germs, like sterile growth media on petri dishes or - as I said,
sterilized flour which - by the way is very hard to obtain, see Ed
Wood's book describing his attempts.

Any attempts avoiding sterilized growth media will cause random results
at the best, severely biased towards the one on media with the highest
germ counts, which may be your more or less hairy nose.

Imagine a botanist/microbiologist hunting for environmentally endemic
germs using non sterile growth media. S/he would get fired on the spot.

As for your claim that white flour is "almost" sterile, I'd like to see
any scientific references supporting your theory giving germ (or colony
building unit) counts besides your own test. The only I have seen show
counts in the gazillions and your claim of "almost" sterility does not
make sense at all.

What surprises me that your (hairy?) nose did not inoculate the "almost
sterile" flour with your tests. Did you sniff antiseptic stuff by any
chance?

Anyway,

happy nose-incolating..

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/


  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 18:02:48 GMT, Marcella Tracy Peek
> wrote:

>I'v been able to find rye flour by Bobs Red Mill in several supermarkets
>around here. Perhaps you could find a local grocer that carries that
>brand and ask them to add rye to their next order. Some grocers are
>pretty nice about special orders.


I found a health food store nearby that has rye flour. Now all I have
to find is a store that has San Francisco sourdough starter.

Thanks for your help.

  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:19:49 -0500, "gw" > wrote:

>Bob, there are some really great health food stores in Houston, and I
>believe there are besides Sun Harvest, at least one Whole Foods Market


I found a health food store nearby that has it.

Bobs Red Mill
FLOUR,OG,DARK RYE

Arrowhead Mills
FLOUR,OG,RYE

Bobs Red Mill
FLOUR,OG,DARK RYE,STNGRND

It appears that you are recommending the last item but it is more
expensive than the other two. Is it essential to get the stoneground
variety?

>and an HEB Central Market.


There is a new HEB store where I live but it does not carry rye flour.

Now all I have to find is San Francisco sourdough starter in Houston.


  #53 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:34:55 -0500, "gw" > wrote:

>> I've been informed (probably unreliably) that Texas Ladies are only
>>equired to wrestle 1 steer and cap a small gusher before they are allowed
>>breakfast which is invariably served from the back of a chuckwagon by a man
>>called Pete
>> sporting a beard that has it's own ecology - can this be true? >


>I guess I wasn't raised a lady....


I think the beard was in reference to a man. Ladies don't usually
appear in public with beards - at least outside the PRA they don't.

But they do carry guns. When the county court finally got around to
putting up a metal detector, they collected a large box of guns from
women's purses the first day it was operational.

  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message =
...

> As for your claim that white flour is "almost" sterile, I'd like to =

see
> any scientific references supporting your theory giving germ (or =

colony
> building unit) counts besides your own test.


What scientific references could relate to the flour in hand?

My experience is that batter from new white flour at room temperature=20
usually does not show activity for 5 days or more, sometimes not for
weeks.

A good starter comes up in less than 2 days, so it gets the upper=20
hand over any possible contaminants. Unless there is activity in a
control consisting of batter only, in the same amount of time, or not
much more. Good not to use the whole start for that reason.

> What surprises me that your (hairy?) nose did not inoculate the =

"almost
> sterile" flour with your tests. Did you sniff antiseptic stuff by any
> chance?


I keep my nose out of the cultures. It is only prudent to do so. Old
people have nasal hair. So what? What is your point??? Are you=20
suggesting we should sterilize our noses? Cautery maybe?

A lot of air passes through the nose. It is the job of the nose to =
remove
particulate matter from the air which passes through it. What happens =
to=20
the particulate junk? Well, most is swallowed, if that makes you =
starter=20
sniffers feel save at all.

---
DickA




  #55 (permalink)   Report Post  
alzelt
 
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Dick Adams wrote:

>
> (Today's French, I understand, are having trouble finding authentic
> baguettes because of the recent introduction of modern mass
> production techniques in many French bakeries. Curiously, the
> baguette, which became common in France about half way through
> the last century, represented a means to achieve better bakery
> efficiency -- it baked rapidly on account of its large surface and
> small volume so that its production time could be as short as five
> hours.)
>

Actually, French baguettes are better today than ten years ago. The
government stepped in and created "Boulangers". To be a boulanger, the
entire baguette process must take place in the same place that they are
sold. For another, more bakers today are using much better ingredients,
including biologique. As a result the typical, very dry and airy but
tasteless, baguette is fast disappearing.
--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener



  #56 (permalink)   Report Post  
barry
 
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Hi Bob,

A word of friendly warning. I just made one of John's breads with his rye
starter. Be very sure you have the starter in a *very* large container.
:-) That thing is really active; I thought I had a Bemelman's Bakery event
in my kitchen.

Barry

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> On 10 Oct 2003 21:03:29 GMT, pamnone (Wcsjohn) wrote:
>
> >>How much rye flour do I use per cup of KA bread flour?

>
> >For "white breads" baguettes for example I use 2% of the total flour

weight ,
> >all of it in the starter. For bread with a proportion of wheatmeal, I

will add
> >5% again all in the starter.

>
> I tried to find rye flour at two large supermarket chains that have
> substantial flour sections and there was none to be found.
>
> Can you give me a popular brand name so I can look further.
>



  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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"alzelt" > wrote in message=20
news
> Actually, French baguettes are better today than ten years ago.


I would not know -- I have not been there for decades. My impression
is that some people think your "better" ones are worse.

> ... more bakers today are using much better ingredients, including=20
> biologique.


Flour, water, salt, yeast and biologique?? =20

> As a result the typical, very dry and airy but tasteless=20
> baguette is fast disappearing.


But still good with some frommage and jambon, I'll bet.

The new ones -- are they chewy yet?

---
DickA



  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
alzelt
 
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Dick Adams wrote:

> "alzelt" > wrote in message
> news >
>
>>Actually, French baguettes are better today than ten years ago.

>
>
> I would not know -- I have not been there for decades. My impression
> is that some people think your "better" ones are worse.
>
>
>>... more bakers today are using much better ingredients, including
>>biologique.

>
>
> Flour, water, salt, yeast and biologique??
>
>
>>As a result the typical, very dry and airy but tasteless
>>baguette is fast disappearing.

>
>
> But still good with some frommage and jambon, I'll bet.
>
> The new ones -- are they chewy yet?
>
> ---
> DickA
>
>
>

Since you haven't been there in decades, a bit of translation is in
order. Biologique is the word for organic flour. But then, you knew
that, right.

The way that Parisians have been heading towards the bakers who can
rightfully call themselves Bounlangers is telling. Yes, you can still
buy the very light and tasteless baguettes that replaced that which was
good at one time. At one time, the loaves that most French preferred
were chewy and tasty. Then they got the idea that it would handier to
prepare this bread in baguette form, and weight.

The rest is history. A generation of terrible baguettes.

To your last question, I would say that more and more are become chewy
and tasty. I doubt that it will all change overnight, but eventually the
overall level of baguettes will improve.

And yes, I find that a baguette stuffed with fromage and jambon is still
a treat, only more so.

--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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"alzelt" > wrote in message=20
...

> Biologique is the word for organic flour. But then, you knew=20

that, right.

No, I did not know that. I thought it was an adjective. Well, do you
suppose that organic flour imparts more flavor to the bread baked from
it than does the unorganic kind?

> The rest is history. A generation of terrible baguettes.


I liked 'em.

> ... I would say that more and more (French baguettes) are become=20
> chewy and tasty. I doubt that it will all change overnight, but =

eventually=20
> the overall level of baguettes will improve.


Now I see that you have a point, and that "Bob" may be on the right
track. I found a chewy baguette at the supermarket, but I am not sure
if it is French. Also, here in the northeast (USA) the supermarkets =
have
sliced Italian loaves, and they are pretty chewy, too. I mean by that =
that
they are not crunchy and crummy like the baguettes in France used to be.

How many can remember Joanne who posted here a while bac? She=20
said that she could not find any decent bread near where she lived in=20
France. But here we find nice chewy baguettes and Italian bread in the
supermarkets. How Providence is smiling upon us!

---
DickA

Iggy's http://www.iggysbread.com/ sells some baguettes, but the French
one's are not sourdough. I mean to check 'em out to see if they are =
chewy.
For chewy, I have tended towards the larger loaves.





  #60 (permalink)   Report Post  
alzelt
 
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Dick Adams wrote:

> "alzelt" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>>Biologique is the word for organic flour. But then, you knew

>
> that, right.
>
> No, I did not know that. I thought it was an adjective. Well, do you
> suppose that organic flour imparts more flavor to the bread baked from
> it than does the unorganic kind?


Let's just say that the use of organic flour is not limited to the
States. That you choose to use it or not, is not the issue. It is the
decision of the bakers that make that choice. As for me, I admit that I
am not a good judge of whether one tastes better than the other. It is,
however, a known quantity that organic veggies contain little or none of
chemicals that we would prefer not to absorb. Natural beef that
contains no hormones as well as milk containing no hormones add nothing
that could be a detriment to our health.
>
>
>>The rest is history. A generation of terrible baguettes.

>
>
> I liked 'em.


What can I say. Some people like velveeta, too.
>
>
>>... I would say that more and more (French baguettes) are become
>>chewy and tasty. I doubt that it will all change overnight, but eventually
>>the overall level of baguettes will improve.

>
>
> Now I see that you have a point, and that "Bob" may be on the right
> track. I found a chewy baguette at the supermarket, but I am not sure
> if it is French. Also, here in the northeast (USA) the supermarkets have
> sliced Italian loaves, and they are pretty chewy, too. I mean by that that
> they are not crunchy and crummy like the baguettes in France used to be.


I will disagree with you on this point. A chewy baguette can, and does,
have a good crunchy crust. Traditional bakers in France use a high heat,
much in desire when looking for a crunchy baguette. Bakers that can make
bread chewy and not crusty are not reproducing that which I know I can
get in France.
>


>
>
>


--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener



  #61 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:11:31 -0400, EJM > wrote:

>Maybe that is true of some home bakers, but here in my home, there are
>several different kinds of bread made.


I simply need a lot more experience. The problem is that for me bread
making is done out of necessity and not as a hobby. Maybe I will get
turned on with this sourdough thing I am playing around with.


  #62 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:54:53 -0600, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

>In other words, if you can't do it with a week of experience, no one else
>can? You should have admitted to being a troll. Now I am embarrassed for
>you
>every time you display the extent of your ignorance. Don't you have a
>partner that can tell you when you are making an ass of yourself?


You guys are too elitist for someone like me. I try to tell you like
it is, and you use it to fluff up your egos.

Shame on you.


  #63 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
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On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:54:53 -0600, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

>In other words, if you can't do it with a week of experience, no one else
>can? You should have admitted to being a troll. Now I am embarrassed for
>you
>every time you display the extent of your ignorance. Don't you have a
>partner that can tell you when you are making an ass of yourself?


Why don't you and the others take a step back and observe just how
overbearing, pompous, condescending and aloof you are. You have likely
run off all those who are not like you, which amplifies the provincial
attitude contributing to the psychopathology here.

You are not alone in this pathology - it is present on other forums.
But there is one thing I have observed in the 8 years I have
participated in Usenet and that's that the forums dedicated to an
"art" as opposed to a "science" tend to me more like this.

The forums dedicated to hard core computer topics, like networking and
firewalls, do not treat the uninitiated anywhere as rudly as you
people do. The experts treat each person as a peer and they try to
educate them.

Whenever the occasional troll attempts to force the forum off track,
he is run off by completely ignoring him. Those forums are the least
elitist of any on Usenet. As the science content lessens the forums
slip into a condition very similar to the one being manifest here.

The pathology in operation here bears a strong resemblance to the same
kind of elitist attitude seen in academia among the faculty. And it
creates the same kind of jungle atmosphere too. The net effect is that
people who do not care to engage in that kind of pathology leave the
forum. That just exacerbates the problem.

If you adopt the attitude that you are the Master and everyone else is
Nothing, then all you are are the Master of Nothing.


  #64 (permalink)   Report Post  
Anvah Gareson
 
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> You are not alone in this pathology - it is present on other forums.
> But there is one thing I have observed in the 8 years I have
> participated in Usenet and that's that the forums dedicated to an
> "art" as opposed to a "science" tend to me more like this.
>
> The forums dedicated to hard core computer topics, like networking and
> firewalls, do not treat the uninitiated anywhere as rudly as you
> people do. The experts treat each person as a peer and they try to
> educate them.



Foolish Bob,

You show your ignorance yet again. I am a frequenter of 'hard-core'
computer forums - especially forums for Linux beginners, POSIX thread
programming, C++ programming among others. These forums are much
ruder to beginners than this one. Mike Avery, Samartha, Roy Basan, to
name a few, spend a lot of time trying to help beginners get better.
You would be better to heed their advice instead of trying to show
your superiority.

You are blinded by your ignorance. I would bet a good bottle of
scotch that you are a pimply faced 20-something social outcast with
nothing better to do than come on Usenet forums and start trolling.
You aren't worth my time.

Good day,

Anvah

p.s: First time I've heard of a pastry chef who doesn't know how to
make croissants. Are you a master Kung-Fu warrior as well?
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