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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Chewy French Baguette
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[ R.F.S. only. NOT CROSSPOSTED ]
"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message = ... > (Joe's stuff) is total baloney - he does not sterilize the flour he is = > using to "catch". The requirement for sterilizing the flour is pretty much unique with you (Samartha), but possibly needed for whole grain flour, which can be quite dirty. Branded white flour from a newly-opened sack is probably sterile enough, but it would be good to run a control. In this case, for=20 batter exposed to the air, a similar batter in a covered container would be good. (I continue to adhere to my theory that sniffing is a major item when it comes to the inoculation of atmospheric cultures. So, for any one doing this experiment, you might include a sniffed control as well.)=20 > Any regular participant on this forum (r.f.s) knows this by now > and newcomers are encouraged to get familiar with the basics,=20 > i. e. germ counts of colony building units in grain products and=20 > use common sense. Well, yes and no. It is nice when the newcomers get some speed=20 by reading some FAQs before they jump in, but I don't think that=20 familiarity with jargon like "colony forming units", and with the=20 statistics of such things, should need to be a requirement. I am not sure what you get from cross posting your stuff? It is difficult to know what motivates such posters as "Bob". I=20 would like to suggest that one-name newbies and those using=20 handles rather than names, especially where no email address is=20 given and/or where gross etiquette infractions like cross-posting=20 are perpetrated, simply be ignored if they persist after=20 appropriate kindly advice is given. By the way, "Bob", if you are paying attention to any of this, one=20 good reason that loaves having the shape of baguettes have=20 trouble being chewy is that they have an extraordinarily high=20 surface to volume ratio, and thus they dry out very rapidly. =20 Also to be noted: there is a huge difference between a baguette- shaped loaf and a French baguette. French baguettes are made in=20 France by French people, and are almost impossible to duplicate=20 without the stuff they have in France, like poor flour and age- old wood-fired ovens. For one thing, French baguettes are=20 typically about a meter long and your oven is too short for that. =20 And they are a whole lot more crunchy than chewy. (Today's French, I understand, are having trouble finding authentic baguettes because of the recent introduction of modern mass=20 production techniques in many French bakeries. Curiously, the baguette, which became common in France about half way through the last century, represented a means to achieve better bakery=20 efficiency -- it baked rapidly on account of its large surface and small volume so that its production time could be as short as five hours.) --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com=20 |
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In article >,
(Bob) wrote: > On 10 Oct 2003 21:03:29 GMT, pamnone (Wcsjohn) wrote: > > >>How much rye flour do I use per cup of KA bread flour? > > >For "white breads" baguettes for example I use 2% of the total flour weight > >, > >all of it in the starter. For bread with a proportion of wheatmeal, I will > >add > >5% again all in the starter. > > I tried to find rye flour at two large supermarket chains that have > substantial flour sections and there was none to be found. > > Can you give me a popular brand name so I can look further. > I'v been able to find rye flour by Bobs Red Mill in several supermarkets around here. Perhaps you could find a local grocer that carries that brand and ask them to add rye to their next order. Some grocers are pretty nice about special orders. marcella |
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Bob, there are some really great health food stores in Houston, and I
believe there are besides Sun Harvest, at least one Whole Foods Market, and an HEB Central Market. All of these will have rye flour of the type useful to bread making. Whole Foods and Sun Harvest both carry it in bins. The health food stores will carry it in small bags, as will Sun Harvest, from Arrowhead Mills, labeled Stone ground. One of the best starters I have used for Poilane bread began with a handful (one cup) of cracked rye I purchased for 67 cents from Whole Foods. I think the recipe for this was in Reinharts book BBA, but it could easily have been in Glezer's Baking in America. Sorry, I can't remember which one. Hope this helps. gw "Bob" > wrote in message ... > On 10 Oct 2003 21:03:29 GMT, pamnone (Wcsjohn) wrote: > > >>How much rye flour do I use per cup of KA bread flour? > > >For "white breads" baguettes for example I use 2% of the total flour weight , > >all of it in the starter. For bread with a proportion of wheatmeal, I will add > >5% again all in the starter. > > I tried to find rye flour at two large supermarket chains that have > substantial flour sections and there was none to be found. > > Can you give me a popular brand name so I can look further. > |
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[ R.F.S. only. NOT CROSSPOSTED ] (I love it!)
Dick Adams wrote: > The requirement for sterilizing the flour is pretty much unique with > you (Samartha), The issue I labeled as "baloney" was the "catch air" sourdough organisms method using flour. You don't seem get it (for whichever reason) - if you want to "catch" any local organisms floating in air or being attached to floating particles like dust, you sure as hell would need something totally free of germs, like sterile growth media on petri dishes or - as I said, sterilized flour which - by the way is very hard to obtain, see Ed Wood's book describing his attempts. Any attempts avoiding sterilized growth media will cause random results at the best, severely biased towards the one on media with the highest germ counts, which may be your more or less hairy nose. Imagine a botanist/microbiologist hunting for environmentally endemic germs using non sterile growth media. S/he would get fired on the spot. As for your claim that white flour is "almost" sterile, I'd like to see any scientific references supporting your theory giving germ (or colony building unit) counts besides your own test. The only I have seen show counts in the gazillions and your claim of "almost" sterility does not make sense at all. What surprises me that your (hairy?) nose did not inoculate the "almost sterile" flour with your tests. Did you sniff antiseptic stuff by any chance? Anyway, happy nose-incolating.. Samartha -- remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/ |
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On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 18:02:48 GMT, Marcella Tracy Peek
> wrote: >I'v been able to find rye flour by Bobs Red Mill in several supermarkets >around here. Perhaps you could find a local grocer that carries that >brand and ask them to add rye to their next order. Some grocers are >pretty nice about special orders. I found a health food store nearby that has rye flour. Now all I have to find is a store that has San Francisco sourdough starter. Thanks for your help. |
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On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:19:49 -0500, "gw" > wrote:
>Bob, there are some really great health food stores in Houston, and I >believe there are besides Sun Harvest, at least one Whole Foods Market I found a health food store nearby that has it. Bobs Red Mill FLOUR,OG,DARK RYE Arrowhead Mills FLOUR,OG,RYE Bobs Red Mill FLOUR,OG,DARK RYE,STNGRND It appears that you are recommending the last item but it is more expensive than the other two. Is it essential to get the stoneground variety? >and an HEB Central Market. There is a new HEB store where I live but it does not carry rye flour. Now all I have to find is San Francisco sourdough starter in Houston. |
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On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:34:55 -0500, "gw" > wrote:
>> I've been informed (probably unreliably) that Texas Ladies are only >>equired to wrestle 1 steer and cap a small gusher before they are allowed >>breakfast which is invariably served from the back of a chuckwagon by a man >>called Pete >> sporting a beard that has it's own ecology - can this be true? > >I guess I wasn't raised a lady.... I think the beard was in reference to a man. Ladies don't usually appear in public with beards - at least outside the PRA they don't. But they do carry guns. When the county court finally got around to putting up a metal detector, they collected a large box of guns from women's purses the first day it was operational. |
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"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message = ... > As for your claim that white flour is "almost" sterile, I'd like to = see > any scientific references supporting your theory giving germ (or = colony > building unit) counts besides your own test. What scientific references could relate to the flour in hand? My experience is that batter from new white flour at room temperature=20 usually does not show activity for 5 days or more, sometimes not for weeks. A good starter comes up in less than 2 days, so it gets the upper=20 hand over any possible contaminants. Unless there is activity in a control consisting of batter only, in the same amount of time, or not much more. Good not to use the whole start for that reason. > What surprises me that your (hairy?) nose did not inoculate the = "almost > sterile" flour with your tests. Did you sniff antiseptic stuff by any > chance? I keep my nose out of the cultures. It is only prudent to do so. Old people have nasal hair. So what? What is your point??? Are you=20 suggesting we should sterilize our noses? Cautery maybe? A lot of air passes through the nose. It is the job of the nose to = remove particulate matter from the air which passes through it. What happens = to=20 the particulate junk? Well, most is swallowed, if that makes you = starter=20 sniffers feel save at all. --- DickA |
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Dick Adams wrote: > > (Today's French, I understand, are having trouble finding authentic > baguettes because of the recent introduction of modern mass > production techniques in many French bakeries. Curiously, the > baguette, which became common in France about half way through > the last century, represented a means to achieve better bakery > efficiency -- it baked rapidly on account of its large surface and > small volume so that its production time could be as short as five > hours.) > Actually, French baguettes are better today than ten years ago. The government stepped in and created "Boulangers". To be a boulanger, the entire baguette process must take place in the same place that they are sold. For another, more bakers today are using much better ingredients, including biologique. As a result the typical, very dry and airy but tasteless, baguette is fast disappearing. -- Alan "If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and avoid the people, you might better stay home." --James Michener |
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Hi Bob,
A word of friendly warning. I just made one of John's breads with his rye starter. Be very sure you have the starter in a *very* large container. :-) That thing is really active; I thought I had a Bemelman's Bakery event in my kitchen. Barry "Bob" > wrote in message ... > On 10 Oct 2003 21:03:29 GMT, pamnone (Wcsjohn) wrote: > > >>How much rye flour do I use per cup of KA bread flour? > > >For "white breads" baguettes for example I use 2% of the total flour weight , > >all of it in the starter. For bread with a proportion of wheatmeal, I will add > >5% again all in the starter. > > I tried to find rye flour at two large supermarket chains that have > substantial flour sections and there was none to be found. > > Can you give me a popular brand name so I can look further. > |
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"alzelt" > wrote in message=20
news > Actually, French baguettes are better today than ten years ago. I would not know -- I have not been there for decades. My impression is that some people think your "better" ones are worse. > ... more bakers today are using much better ingredients, including=20 > biologique. Flour, water, salt, yeast and biologique?? =20 > As a result the typical, very dry and airy but tasteless=20 > baguette is fast disappearing. But still good with some frommage and jambon, I'll bet. The new ones -- are they chewy yet? --- DickA |
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Dick Adams wrote: > "alzelt" > wrote in message > news > > >>Actually, French baguettes are better today than ten years ago. > > > I would not know -- I have not been there for decades. My impression > is that some people think your "better" ones are worse. > > >>... more bakers today are using much better ingredients, including >>biologique. > > > Flour, water, salt, yeast and biologique?? > > >>As a result the typical, very dry and airy but tasteless >>baguette is fast disappearing. > > > But still good with some frommage and jambon, I'll bet. > > The new ones -- are they chewy yet? > > --- > DickA > > > Since you haven't been there in decades, a bit of translation is in order. Biologique is the word for organic flour. But then, you knew that, right. The way that Parisians have been heading towards the bakers who can rightfully call themselves Bounlangers is telling. Yes, you can still buy the very light and tasteless baguettes that replaced that which was good at one time. At one time, the loaves that most French preferred were chewy and tasty. Then they got the idea that it would handier to prepare this bread in baguette form, and weight. The rest is history. A generation of terrible baguettes. To your last question, I would say that more and more are become chewy and tasty. I doubt that it will all change overnight, but eventually the overall level of baguettes will improve. And yes, I find that a baguette stuffed with fromage and jambon is still a treat, only more so. -- Alan "If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and avoid the people, you might better stay home." --James Michener |
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"alzelt" > wrote in message=20 ... > Biologique is the word for organic flour. But then, you knew=20 that, right. No, I did not know that. I thought it was an adjective. Well, do you suppose that organic flour imparts more flavor to the bread baked from it than does the unorganic kind? > The rest is history. A generation of terrible baguettes. I liked 'em. > ... I would say that more and more (French baguettes) are become=20 > chewy and tasty. I doubt that it will all change overnight, but = eventually=20 > the overall level of baguettes will improve. Now I see that you have a point, and that "Bob" may be on the right track. I found a chewy baguette at the supermarket, but I am not sure if it is French. Also, here in the northeast (USA) the supermarkets = have sliced Italian loaves, and they are pretty chewy, too. I mean by that = that they are not crunchy and crummy like the baguettes in France used to be. How many can remember Joanne who posted here a while bac? She=20 said that she could not find any decent bread near where she lived in=20 France. But here we find nice chewy baguettes and Italian bread in the supermarkets. How Providence is smiling upon us! --- DickA Iggy's http://www.iggysbread.com/ sells some baguettes, but the French one's are not sourdough. I mean to check 'em out to see if they are = chewy. For chewy, I have tended towards the larger loaves. |
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Dick Adams wrote: > "alzelt" > wrote in message > ... > > >>Biologique is the word for organic flour. But then, you knew > > that, right. > > No, I did not know that. I thought it was an adjective. Well, do you > suppose that organic flour imparts more flavor to the bread baked from > it than does the unorganic kind? Let's just say that the use of organic flour is not limited to the States. That you choose to use it or not, is not the issue. It is the decision of the bakers that make that choice. As for me, I admit that I am not a good judge of whether one tastes better than the other. It is, however, a known quantity that organic veggies contain little or none of chemicals that we would prefer not to absorb. Natural beef that contains no hormones as well as milk containing no hormones add nothing that could be a detriment to our health. > > >>The rest is history. A generation of terrible baguettes. > > > I liked 'em. What can I say. Some people like velveeta, too. > > >>... I would say that more and more (French baguettes) are become >>chewy and tasty. I doubt that it will all change overnight, but eventually >>the overall level of baguettes will improve. > > > Now I see that you have a point, and that "Bob" may be on the right > track. I found a chewy baguette at the supermarket, but I am not sure > if it is French. Also, here in the northeast (USA) the supermarkets have > sliced Italian loaves, and they are pretty chewy, too. I mean by that that > they are not crunchy and crummy like the baguettes in France used to be. I will disagree with you on this point. A chewy baguette can, and does, have a good crunchy crust. Traditional bakers in France use a high heat, much in desire when looking for a crunchy baguette. Bakers that can make bread chewy and not crusty are not reproducing that which I know I can get in France. > > > > -- Alan "If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and avoid the people, you might better stay home." --James Michener |
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On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:11:31 -0400, EJM > wrote:
>Maybe that is true of some home bakers, but here in my home, there are >several different kinds of bread made. I simply need a lot more experience. The problem is that for me bread making is done out of necessity and not as a hobby. Maybe I will get turned on with this sourdough thing I am playing around with. |
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On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:54:53 -0600, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote: >In other words, if you can't do it with a week of experience, no one else >can? You should have admitted to being a troll. Now I am embarrassed for >you >every time you display the extent of your ignorance. Don't you have a >partner that can tell you when you are making an ass of yourself? You guys are too elitist for someone like me. I try to tell you like it is, and you use it to fluff up your egos. Shame on you. |
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On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:54:53 -0600, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote: >In other words, if you can't do it with a week of experience, no one else >can? You should have admitted to being a troll. Now I am embarrassed for >you >every time you display the extent of your ignorance. Don't you have a >partner that can tell you when you are making an ass of yourself? Why don't you and the others take a step back and observe just how overbearing, pompous, condescending and aloof you are. You have likely run off all those who are not like you, which amplifies the provincial attitude contributing to the psychopathology here. You are not alone in this pathology - it is present on other forums. But there is one thing I have observed in the 8 years I have participated in Usenet and that's that the forums dedicated to an "art" as opposed to a "science" tend to me more like this. The forums dedicated to hard core computer topics, like networking and firewalls, do not treat the uninitiated anywhere as rudly as you people do. The experts treat each person as a peer and they try to educate them. Whenever the occasional troll attempts to force the forum off track, he is run off by completely ignoring him. Those forums are the least elitist of any on Usenet. As the science content lessens the forums slip into a condition very similar to the one being manifest here. The pathology in operation here bears a strong resemblance to the same kind of elitist attitude seen in academia among the faculty. And it creates the same kind of jungle atmosphere too. The net effect is that people who do not care to engage in that kind of pathology leave the forum. That just exacerbates the problem. If you adopt the attitude that you are the Master and everyone else is Nothing, then all you are are the Master of Nothing. |
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> You are not alone in this pathology - it is present on other forums.
> But there is one thing I have observed in the 8 years I have > participated in Usenet and that's that the forums dedicated to an > "art" as opposed to a "science" tend to me more like this. > > The forums dedicated to hard core computer topics, like networking and > firewalls, do not treat the uninitiated anywhere as rudly as you > people do. The experts treat each person as a peer and they try to > educate them. Foolish Bob, You show your ignorance yet again. I am a frequenter of 'hard-core' computer forums - especially forums for Linux beginners, POSIX thread programming, C++ programming among others. These forums are much ruder to beginners than this one. Mike Avery, Samartha, Roy Basan, to name a few, spend a lot of time trying to help beginners get better. You would be better to heed their advice instead of trying to show your superiority. You are blinded by your ignorance. I would bet a good bottle of scotch that you are a pimply faced 20-something social outcast with nothing better to do than come on Usenet forums and start trolling. You aren't worth my time. Good day, Anvah p.s: First time I've heard of a pastry chef who doesn't know how to make croissants. Are you a master Kung-Fu warrior as well? |
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