Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve W
 
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On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 00:23:43 GMT, Dick Adams > wrote:
> "Steve W" > wrote in message ...
>
>> On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:06:20 GMT, Dick Adams
>> > wrote:

>
>> > OK, here's my suggestion. Forget the "stone" and the "steam"
>> > altogether.

>
>> I disagree completely. See below.

>
>> ... don't most gas ovens have the flame located below and
>> outside the oven?

>
> Below yes, but, chez moi, the burner exhaust passes through
> the oven interior.
>
>> ... you have not tried hard enough.

>
> You are not giving me credit enough. Please see for instance:
>


You are right, you certainly have made an effort. My guess is that your
problem stems from the fact that you can not close your oven vent and
run the oven at the same time. My understanding is that pro ovens have
dampers that can be closed to retain steam during the initial bake and
then opened to dump steam for final browning. That is the process I
have attempted to replicate, rather successfully I think.

To get adequate steam in a vented oven may require external steam
generation as in Kenneth's pressure cooker setup.

>
>> My experience is that baking with adequate steam is easily
>> the most important part of "artisan" style technique.

>
> I think that the quick way to bake artisanal bread is to start
> with an artisanal oven. In a home oven, you simply cannot easily
> get the same quality of steam as is possible with a masonry or
> deck oven.
>
>> It is not just a matter of thickness or chewiness. Most of the
>> flavor of a great loaf comes from the crust.

>
> It seems to me that the flavor from the crust depends on the
> heat, not on the humidity.
>


No. I can't explain the chemistry involved but I beleive D. Wing did a
good job. See Wing & Scott "The Bread Builders" pp 93-97. Perhaps the
humidity enhances the Maillard reations? All I know is that the taste
is *much* improved.

>> There is simply no comparison between the flavor of my loaves
>> baked with and without steam. And yes, I have tried both!

>
> There is a good spot to link some comparative graphics, unless
> your comment has to do with loaf flavor only and not on crust quality.
>


Where?

>> Given my equipment, generating adequate steam is very easy, I just
>> close the vent and spray the oven walls when the loaves are first
>> loaded. Open vent to dump steam after 10 minutes.

>
> Probably works better in your electric- than in my gas oven. But you
> just ain't gonna get that artisanal steam.


Perhaps. But enough to make a huge improvement and that is what counts.

>> My crust is pretty much the same thickness and color all the way
>> around. As you can see in my "Steve W's 40/40/10":

>
>> http://samartha.net/SD/file-corner/g...ctures/BYDATE/

>
> Yep -- there's the "with steam" but where's the "without steam"? (If
> you are just talking about flavor, no purpose to show a picture, inasmuch
> as a picture has no taste.)


Flavor is my main concern. And I am not claiming that steam enhances
the coloring of the crust. I think the stone is mainly responsible for
that. No, I am NOT going to bake one without the stone for comparison.
I think the result is obvious.

>
> BTW, the crusts in my photo were quite evenly brown, except for coups.
> You apparently misinterpreted some shadows.


I was referring to the cross-section shot. The lower edges appear
nearly white. How would shadows create such an effect?

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net
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Kenneth
 
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On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 12:24:05 GMT, Steve W >
wrote:

>Perhaps the
>humidity enhances the Maillard reations?


Hi Steve,

Here is the issue as I understand it:

Dry air is a poor conductor of heat. Steam is a much better conductor
of heat.

When a (relatively cold) loaf is put in a dry oven, a (relatively)
cool layer of insulting air forms around its surface.

When that same loaf is put in an oven that has some steam within, the
heat of the oven is conveyed to the surface of the bread much more
quickly. The available heat has the taste benefits you describe.

I just realized that all if this is rather like the issue of "wind
chill." Anyone who has walked into a commercial freezer at, say,
zeroF, immediately discovers the benefits (in that circumstance) of a
layer of insulating air: The air in the freezer does not feel
particularly cold initially. But, disrupt the insulating layer by
moving around a bit, and things change very rapidly...

In our baking, the steam "disrupts" the insulating layer of air.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Samartha Deva
 
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Steve W wrote:
<-snip->
> To get adequate steam in a vented oven may require external steam
> generation as in Kenneth's pressure cooker setup.


Since Kenneth isn't into pictures - has anyone thought about what kind
of pressure in the boiler/cooker is needed to come out with a 500 F
steam?

I would think, that there is a long thin copper pipe running from the
steamer to the oven and by the time it's getting into the oven, it could
be room heater and oven cooler.

How hot do those pressure cookers get anyway in regular use without the
excess pressure valve releasing?

Samartha


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  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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"Steve W" > wrote in message =
...

> You are right, you certainly have made an effort. My guess is that =

your
> problem stems from the fact that you can not close your oven vent and
> run the oven at the same time.


Looks like there is not much hope until I get a better oven!

> ... To get adequate steam in a vented oven may require external steam
> generation as in Kenneth's pressure cooker setup ...


There is just one thing that makes me suspicious about Kenneth's
pressure cooker trick. If it is so good, why did he lay out big bucks =
for
the Bongard?

> [ ... ]


> ... See Wing & Scott "The Bread Builders" pp 93-97. Perhaps the

humidity enhances the Maillard reations?=20

I forgot what it said on those pages. Perhaps? Perhaps not!=20

> All I know is that the taste is *much* improved.


Improved by the effect of humidity on the Maillard reactions?

> ... But enough to make a huge improvement and that is what counts....


Huge is good. Who can argue with huge?

> Flavor is my main concern. And I am not claiming that steam enhances
> the coloring of the crust. I think the stone is mainly responsible =

for
> that. =20


I think the slab can brown the bottom if it is hot enough to start, and =
to=20
some extent, keep the bottom surface from drying out. I cannot imagine
what effect it might have on the coloring, or any property, of the=20
portion of the dough surface which it does not contact.

You are probably not old enough to remember Harvey Bennett. Harvey
preferred sourdough made with bakers' yeast, because the flavor was=20
better. And he was right, of course. When it comes to taste, persons
having a good sense of it are bound to excel in discussions where taste
is a parameter.

> No, I am NOT going to bake one without the stone for comparison.
> I think the result is obvious.


People who have apprised themselves of the content of the popular=20
culinary literature usually follow the course you have selected. =
Obviously=20
you are doing the right thing.

> > BTW, the crusts in my photo were quite evenly brown, except for =

coups. =20
> > You apparently misinterpreted some shadows.


> I was referring to the cross-section shot. The lower edges appear
> nearly white. How would shadows create such an effect?


With those loaves, the bottom crust was not only paler, but it was =
chewier.
Like it would be with abundant steaming. My best guess is that the =
right
quality of steam gives a chewy crust, and rapid delivery of heat to the
dough. After that, as the dough surface dries out, it browns. I do not
think that the oven humidity obtained with the various steaming tricks=20
proposed to home bakers by book writers, and by r.f.s. advice givers,
counts for much.

There a couple of things to keep in mind with respect to my way -- I=20
am taking most of the rise before the bake starts under a condition of
high humidity, and usually starting in a cold oven. That makes quite a=20
bit of difference in the rationale for the procedure.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com







  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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On 1 Oct 2003 20:28:28 GMT, Ignoramus28710
> wrote:

>It is very easy to get superheated steam. There is no need for higher
>pressure at all. Just make steam and then heat it in some sort of heat
>exchanger or whatever.


Howdy,

As I understand all of this...

When the steam is created in the boiler set up that I used to use, it
was at 212F (approximately assuming sea level etc.)

The mass of the steam is minuscule as compared to the mass of the
oven.

When the steam is introduced into the oven, it assumes the temperature
of the oven.

I now have a Bongard M2FE. Though it creates steam at the push of a
button, the process is essentially the same as my old rig. The steam
created is NOT under pressure, and is NOT super-heated.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


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Dick Adams
 
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"Ignoramus28710" > wrote in message =
...

> Your natural gas water heater produces a lot of "superheated steam"
> when hydrogen in the natural gas burns and produces H2O. Any=20
> natural gas fired stove has lots of "superheated steam" as well.


Aha! So, what do you think of that, SteveW? Looks like I am
finished before I start.

---
DickA


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Kenneth
 
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On 1 Oct 2003 22:37:58 GMT, Ignoramus28710
> wrote:

>Well, if the over is, say, 400F, then the steam would be at 400F as
>well. Do you want to call it superheated? I do not know.


Hello again,

Of course you are right...

I meant to say that the steam was not superheated at the point of its
creation.

For years I used a pressure cooker as a boiler on top of my commercial
range. I piped the steam from that boiler down the back of the range
and into the vent.

Despite my descriptions, many folks assumed that the steam was under
pressure because I used a pressure cooker as the vessel. There was no
pressure because the end of the tube was open...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
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Steve W
 
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* Dick Adams > 2003-10-01:
> When it comes to taste, persons
> having a good sense of it are bound to excel in discussions where taste
> is a parameter.


Unfortunate that taste is so subjective, but flavor is still the most
important quality. Nowdays most supermarkets (at
least in my area) are capable of pumping out large quantities of
beautiful loaves that taste something like cardboard.

> I do not
> think that the oven humidity obtained with the various steaming tricks
> proposed to home bakers by book writers, and by r.f.s. advice givers,
> counts for much.


Based on what? Your personal experience with your own oven? Not a very
broad sample. I say adequate steam can easily be generated in home ovens,
at least electric ones. And that the flavor improvement obtained by
properly steaming the loaves is large enough to be obvious to the most
casual observer. If you can't taste the difference you aren't using
adequate steam.

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Samartha Deva
 
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Kenneth wrote:

> Despite my descriptions, many folks assumed that the steam was under
> pressure because I used a pressure cooker as the vessel. There was no
> pressure because the end of the tube was open...


If steam production in the cooker is higher than what can escape through
the tube, pressure would build up (all theory since I don't know your
detailed setup) and steam temperature would rise above atmospheric
boiling point inside the cooker.

If there is no or neglectable radiation head loss on the pipe, steam
with higher than the atmospheric boiling point could reach the oven. If
you get enough "oomph" behind that setup one could heat the oven with
steam instead of gas or coils and probably make a sauna out of your
kitchen.

I found this about superheated steam:

Superheated steam, steam heated to a temperature higher than the boiling
point corresponding to its pressure. It can not exist in contact with
water, nor contain water, and resembles a perfect gas; -- called also
surcharged steam, anhydrous steam, and steam gas.

Now to "i":

> It is very easy to get superheated steam. There is no need for higher
> pressure at all. Just make steam and then heat it in some sort of heat
> exchanger or whatever.


Practical setup would be a pressure less cooker for the steam and then
another heater coil or similar to heat up the steam to get it
"superheated".

I don't see a need for two heat sources and some additional coil setup
to create steam and name it "superheated".

With a pressure cooker under pressure from heating water inside above
atmospheric boiling point and leaking steam into the open will produce
superheated steam.

> Your natural gas water heater produces a lot of "superheated steam"
> when hydrogen in the natural gas burns and produces H2O.


The water heater is in the basement, kitchen oven one level higher - not
considered feasible and, see below.

> Any natural gas fired stove has lots of "superheated steam" as well.


And? With both methods, you may create a hazardous situation trying to
use it. How would you separate the CO2 from the water steam? What you
essentially need to do is lead part of the heater exhaust back into the
house. That's probably ok but need more testing to be added in the next
edition of 101 ways to kill yourself. Try it and report back so it can
be dropped because it won't work. Just remember to keep accurate notes
as you progress in the experiment.

> Or burn hydrogen in some form. It will expand
> as it heats. So you need to make sure that there is plenty of room to
> expand and vent away.


I know it is very exciting to play with hydrogen cylinders in your
kitchen with the oven on full. See how long it takes to depressure a
cylinder with various valve opening, like one turn, two turns... Another
good candidate for the next issue of 101 ways to kill yourself. Try it
and remember to keep good notes in a fireproof box and report back.

< All the best,

Yesss!!!

Samartha

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Kenneth
 
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On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 18:03:59 -0600, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>If steam production in the cooker is higher than what can escape through
>the tube, pressure would build up (all theory since I don't know your
>detailed setup) and steam temperature would rise above atmospheric
>boiling point inside the cooker.


Hello again,

Yes, you are correct...

My setup used a copper tube that (if I recall correctly) had an inside
diameter of 1/2".

I rather doubt that I was producing steam at a rate (measurably)
higher than could flow through that tube.

I believe that I was putting steam at 212F into an oven that was 500F.

Also, this was in a gas oven.

As before, all the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


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Samartha Deva
 
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Kenneth wrote:

> My setup used a copper tube that (if I recall correctly) had an inside
> diameter of 1/2".
>
> I rather doubt that I was producing steam at a rate (measurably)
> higher than could flow through that tube.


Makes sense. What could be done though, is to put a valve in the pipe
and heavily insulate it so the heat loss on the way from the cooker to
the oven is reduced and then crank up the cooker to max - well, the
overflow valve should still be in place to build up pressure and the
pipe attached separately. With the valve one allows to build up pressure
in the cooker and then you would have hotter than 212 F steam.

If I ever run across a cheap and solid steam cooker.... that cooker
steam thing sounds promising.

Only problem with my setup is the electric oven and how to get into it.
Probably need to move it off the wall and peek behind it. Will probably
have lost it's resale value considerably after I am through with that.

Samartha

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Dick Adams
 
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"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message =
...

> If I ever run across a cheap and solid steam cooker.... that cooker
> steam thing sounds promising.


Maybe you should skip that, and move directly to an artisanal oven.

Why don't you try to get Kenneth to compare his Bongard experience
with the results he used to get with his pressure-cooker rig?

> (Present oven) will probably have lost it's resale value considerably=20
> after I am through with that.


If the pressure cooker trick does so well as the Bongard, you'll then=20
know in your heart of hearts that you trashed your present oven=20
according to good economic judgement.

---
DickA


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Dick Adams
 
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"Ignoramus28710" >=20
wrote in message ...

> I would think that if you simply placed a water container
> into a hot stove (say 400F at the thermometer), and the=20
> steam escaping from the water is heated to same=20
> temperature, (as evidenced by the thermometer), it would=20
> also be superheated steam.


That is an experiment that you could usefully do -- all that is
needed is a stove, a thermometer, and a vessel in which to=20
heat the water.

Come back and give us a report when you hit 400=B0F. (Try
not to get discouraged by temperatures hovering around=20
212=B0F.*)

(Hint -- you may have to pressurize to some extent, but you
are a clever fellow and can manage that, no doubt.)

> Visualize a gas stove. Gas burns in it and that's what keeps=20
> the stove hot. The byproduct of the natural gas burning is=20
> H2O, which is obviously "superheated steam".


Hey, wow, that's probably it -- the reason I can get such good
results with a gas stove without adding steam or baking on a stone.
All you folks with electric stoves -- take note! Maybe it is just
a matter of getting the right kind of stove.

---
DickA

___________
* Of course, if you are a science teacher or professor, you can=20
get your students to do some of the work. But I would like for=20
you personally to do the pressurization study, since it will be
necessary to report the results of this definitive work accurately=20
to future generations.




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Dick Adams
 
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"Ignoramus8561" > wrote in message =
...

> Temperature of the gas inside the stove? Why don't you think they

could not be above 212 c?

Whoops! I read "into" as "onto". Stupidly I thought I could persuade
you to blow your head off.

> Sounds like you never studied physics...


Seems I have a problem with reading. I did study some physics=20
from time to time.

> I can easily do this experiment tonight if you refuse to believe

me. Just ask me to do it.=20

I have given up on the possibility of inducing you to=20
self-eliminate.

> Do you have a stove yourself?


Mrs. Adams owns the stove and she will not let me do much=20
stuff with it. I am not even allowed to steam the oven with
red hot frying pans and boiling water. I though you knew=20
that. =20

> You may add steam to have more steam than is afforded by=20
> burning off hydrogen in the natural gas, if that is what you need.=20
> All I was saying is that burning natural gas creates some steam,=20
> not that it creates enough steam for some certain purpose.


Aw, nuts! There goes my vision of making pretty loaves like=20
Samartha does without having a pan of water underneath.

---
DickA

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Samartha Deva
 
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Dick Adams wrote:

> Aw, nuts! There goes my vision of making pretty loaves like
> Samartha does without having a pan of water underneath.


Says who? I always have (for bread) and do (bowl) but I think I could do
better with a powerful steam cooker because the bowl water evaporates in
an uncontrolled manner.

There seems to be an intial evaportation where a lot of steam comes out
of the vent (elect. oven, little grid below the knob panel on the back)
but that does not last although there is still water in the bowl slowly
boiling and evaporating. Very little control on amount of steam with
this.

Spray bottle into hot oven works better, but it still escapes through
the vent. Maybe ductaping the vent could do something.

Samartha



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Steve W
 
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* Samartha Deva > 2003-10-02:
> Spray bottle into hot oven works better, but it still escapes through
> the vent. Maybe ductaping the vent could do something.


Duct tape is probably not a good long term solution but would probably
suffice for a one time trial. My vent is easily plugged with a ball of
aluminum foil, but my oven vent is under a burner.

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net
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Dick Adams
 
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"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message =
...

> Maybe ductaping the vent could do something.


I am sure you could think of something better than that.

Maybe it is time to wonder about the differences between
steam (like for motivating steam locomotives), water vapor,
mist, and humidity.

The way I see it, there are two levels of interaction between
atmospheric H2O and dough surface:

1. Keeps dough surface from drying out.

2. Gelates the dough surface.

Me, I take my rise before the dough goes into the oven, so I
am not concerned about keeping the surface soft and pliable.

Regards gelating, I have been able to do it, but I get in trouble
with Mrs. Adams when I do it. (Steam shooting out of the stove
in all directions.)

---
DickA





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Dick Adams
 
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"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message =
...

> Maybe ductaping the vent could do something.


I am sure you could think of something better than that.

Maybe it is time to wonder about the differences between
steam (like for motivating steam locomotives), water vapor,
mist, and humidity.

The way I see it, there are two levels of interaction between
atmospheric H2O and dough surface:

1. Keeps dough surface from drying out.

2. Gelates the dough surface at sufficiently high temperature.

Me, I take my rise before the dough goes into the oven, so I
am not concerned about keeping the surface soft and pliable.

Regards gelating, I have been able to do it, but I get in trouble
with Mrs. Adams when I do it. ("Steam" shooting out of the stove
in all directions.)

I think it is important, at this moment in time, to get Kenneth to
tell us what is the difference in his experience with the pressure-
cooker trick, and the Bongard. I would hope that he is getting
better results with the Bongard, but perhaps his wife will not let
him use the steam, on account of "rainclouds in the kitchen".

Ref.: =
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...8fg3v87s3lf09=
>

---
DickA







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