Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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Default Sourdough in a masonry oven


> Did you try the "design system" link? It doesn't give much detail but
> there is a bit on the principles involved.http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/designsystem.html


http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/c..._sequence.html also
gives me a bit better idea

do you mind me asking where you are? The company seems largely russian
- and although clearly a pretty radical design relates to the the
massive retained heat of the traditional russian stove I would guess
(the type that you sleep on)

since you say you only fire twice a day (whereas I run my wood burning
stove at home continously during winter) I guess it must be ultra
eifficent

> >Its placing directly above fire is curious, partly because
> > examples I have seen in old farmhouses normally have it to side and
> > also it implies even if this oven does need fire inside oven, it must
> > be very subject to how hot the fire underneath is running (so how do
> > you get really low heat in oven when you want that?)

>
> According to the instructions, we don't bake bread until the fire has gone
> out. There is supposed to be enough retained heat in the oven for baking
> then (which I find easy to believe considering how well it heats the
> house.) It is supposed to be too hot for bread while the fire is still
> going.
>


have to say I would find this rather awkward to work with I think.
Since many sourdough recipes (or rather methods) require one to start
making up dough between one day and three days in advance and the
final point at which bread is put in oven being fairly critical in its
process of rising (the time slot when a loaf is neither under-proofed
or over-proofed from its final make up is probably about half an hour
maximum) - most of us either switch our modern oven or light our oven
fire at the dictates of the dough - which you won't be a liberty to do
(assuming your priority is heating your house)

the answers for you I think will be various. Infa red thermometer is a
nice gadget, but as I wrote before simply reading exterior and
interior heat of your oven in this way isn't always that helpful
(exterior obviously tends to reflect the ambient heat rather than just
the internal retained heat). In your case the interior surface heat
may be more useful than typically since effectively it will only be
retained heat. If you have to choose (ie you can't get the model I
mentioned that does both probe and infa red) then I might go for the
probe type themometer, these can be very cheap as they are produced
for car mechanics also. Either way I would strongly suggest you
initally do graphs of the falling temperature of your oven to work out
typical times for when it will be at whatever temperature (and for how
long)

The second tactic (aside from rather long term pre-planning) in order
to get your dough to dance to the rythm of your daily firings is to
make or find already existing in your house what professional bakers
call 'proofing cabinet' and 'retarder'. A proofer will speed up dough
development, a retarder will do the opposite. Classic domestic ready
made proofer would be dough in a tupperware in an 'airing cabinet' if
you have such a thing (sadly few do nowadays - there's nothing like
putting on fresh clothes from an air cabinet on a cold morning) - if
you don't have in your case I am sure you can make a cabinet at some
appropriate distance from your fire ensemble - but the result must be
an even all round heat and dough sealed in soemthing so as not to dry
out. A fridge can do the job of retarding if a bit harshly

yours
andy forbes

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Default Sourdough in a masonry oven


"atty" > wrote in message
ups.com...


>>
>> The time it takes to achieve certain colours is a very good guide

>
> do you mean colour of flour, how longs it takes to darken?
>


By the way, Kiko suggests the flour method too, ISTR you use his book ...

Mary


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On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:58:13 -0500, Jayne Kulikauskas
> wrote:

[---]

>You get low heat by waiting for it. The fire is lit only twice a day and
>burns itself out in a couple of hours.


If it's your main house heating, isn't it a bit constraining to have
to actually light the thing up twice a day - or do you in fact just
add more wood to the embers when you need to fire it again?
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On 26 Feb 2007 08:21:39 -0800, "atty" > wrote:

>Since many sourdough recipes (or rather methods) require one to start
>making up dough between one day and three days in advance


Agreed.

>and the
>final point at which bread is put in oven being fairly critical in its
>process of rising (the time slot when a loaf is neither under-proofed
>or over-proofed from its final make up is probably about half an hour
>maximum)


That, on the other hand, I find a bit extreme. Could you detail that
"half hour window" a bit more? I've never found sourdough to be that
fussy.
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On Feb 26, 6:55 pm, Andrew Price > wrote:
> On 26 Feb 2007 08:21:39 -0800, "atty" > wrote:
>
> >Since many sourdough recipes (or rather methods) require one to start
> >making up dough between one day and three days in advance

>
> Agreed.
>
> >and the
> >final point at which bread is put in oven being fairly critical in its
> >process of rising (the time slot when a loaf is neither under-proofed
> >or over-proofed from its final make up is probably about half an hour
> >maximum)

>
> That, on the other hand, I find a bit extreme. Could you detail that
> "half hour window" a bit more? I've never found sourdough to be that
> fussy.


I wasn't meaning that the initial mix time determines the end time,
however much later that might be, to within a half hour time slot,
since the main proof (including retarding if one goes in for that) is
surely more flexible. (Personally I don't bother with knock down proof
after main proof since I think that is a stage necessitated by rough
handling and extra dough added or subtracted to make exact dough
weight by professional bakers). What I was referring to is the moment
when the final proof dough (made up into loaves) is risen to its near
but not quite maximum and is therefore ready to go in the oven. If you
get it under you won't get the maximum size loaf you could, if you get
over you won't get much oven spring. Usual test I have read of and
more or less use is that a dimple poked in the dough with finger
should take no more than 15 seconds to substantially disapear. Left a
lot too long your loaf will probably deflate as you slash it, left
much too long (particualarly if it is anyway a wet dough or largely
rye dough) you'll just get a splayed shapeless thing like a cow pat.

In my case at this time of year, since I don't heat my home much, and
don't use any proofing box or cabinet, final proof is between 2 and 2
and quarter hours and the antiquated gas oven for winter baking takes
one and half hours to get up to baking temperature ... In a warmer
house I would suppose the critical slot for loading oven was even
tighter. However with a lot stiffer doughs than mine (currently 74%
hydration for white) mayeb things aren't so critical.

I think I would find it harder but not impossible to live with an oven
whose baking time was not determined by myself as the baker, as Jayne
is I think suggesting will be the case for her but, its kind of so
novel a suggestion of a fire/oven setup compared to the traditional,
who knows (yet)? If the rate at which her oven's temperature falls is
very slow maybe there is quite a wide time window within which too
bake. It also occurs to me that maybe all my stuff about IR/probe
thermometers my be unecessary for her, since if her oven's inside
temperature is purely retained heat maybe a bog standard oven
themometer would be all she needs.

yours
andy forbes






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On 26 Feb 2007 08:21:39 -0800, atty wrote:

>> Did you try the "design system" link? It doesn't give much detail but
>> there is a bit on the principles involved.http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/designsystem.html

>
> http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/c..._sequence.html also
> gives me a bit better idea
>
> do you mind me asking where you are? The company seems largely russian
> - and although clearly a pretty radical design relates to the the
> massive retained heat of the traditional russian stove I would guess
> (the type that you sleep on)


Alex, who runs the company, is a Russian immigrant to Canada. He is our
neighbour here in Ontario, an hour or so north of Toronto. He clearly draws
on traditional Russian design. Although ours is not for sleeping on, it
does have a heated bench to sit on. I'm wondering if that can be adapted
for use as a proofer.

(If you are interested in more information on where I live see:
www.wholevillage.org )

> since you say you only fire twice a day (whereas I run my wood burning
> stove at home continously during winter) I guess it must be ultra
> eifficent


It is. It burns very short and hot which reduces particulate and then
continues to heat because of its large thermal mass.

[...]
>> According to the instructions, we don't bake bread until the fire has gone
>> out. There is supposed to be enough retained heat in the oven for baking
>> then (which I find easy to believe considering how well it heats the
>> house.) It is supposed to be too hot for bread while the fire is still
>> going.
>>

>
> have to say I would find this rather awkward to work with I think.
> Since many sourdough recipes (or rather methods) require one to start
> making up dough between one day and three days in advance and the
> final point at which bread is put in oven being fairly critical in its
> process of rising (the time slot when a loaf is neither under-proofed
> or over-proofed from its final make up is probably about half an hour
> maximum) - most of us either switch our modern oven or light our oven
> fire at the dictates of the dough - which you won't be a liberty to do
> (assuming your priority is heating your house)


Supposedly the times that the oven reaches certain temperatures is
consistent and predictable. For example, it might always be bread
temperature 5 hours after firing. So, if the dough's timing is predictable
too, it should be possible to coordinate them to occur at the same time.

> the answers for you I think will be various. Infa red thermometer is a
> nice gadget, but as I wrote before simply reading exterior and
> interior heat of your oven in this way isn't always that helpful
> (exterior obviously tends to reflect the ambient heat rather than just
> the internal retained heat). In your case the interior surface heat
> may be more useful than typically since effectively it will only be
> retained heat. If you have to choose (ie you can't get the model I
> mentioned that does both probe and infa red) then I might go for the
> probe type themometer, these can be very cheap as they are produced
> for car mechanics also. Either way I would strongly suggest you
> initally do graphs of the falling temperature of your oven to work out
> typical times for when it will be at whatever temperature (and for how
> long)


Yes, we certainly intend to figure out and keep written record of our
temperature times.

> The second tactic (aside from rather long term pre-planning) in order
> to get your dough to dance to the rythm of your daily firings is to
> make or find already existing in your house what professional bakers
> call 'proofing cabinet' and 'retarder'. A proofer will speed up dough
> development, a retarder will do the opposite. Classic domestic ready
> made proofer would be dough in a tupperware in an 'airing cabinet' if
> you have such a thing (sadly few do nowadays - there's nothing like
> putting on fresh clothes from an air cabinet on a cold morning) - if
> you don't have in your case I am sure you can make a cabinet at some
> appropriate distance from your fire ensemble - but the result must be
> an even all round heat and dough sealed in soemthing so as not to dry
> out. A fridge can do the job of retarding if a bit harshly


I read the recent post about somebody's homemade proofer. It sounded
fairly easy to make, although it would be nicer to figure out a way to
incorporate the heater's warming bench.

--
Jayne
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:51:39 +0100, Andrew Price wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:58:13 -0500, Jayne Kulikauskas
> > wrote:
>
> [---]
>
>>You get low heat by waiting for it. The fire is lit only twice a day and
>>burns itself out in a couple of hours.

>
> If it's your main house heating, isn't it a bit constraining to have
> to actually light the thing up twice a day - or do you in fact just
> add more wood to the embers when you need to fire it again?


It is easier to light it twice a day than to constantly feed a conventional
fire.

--
Jayne
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On Feb 26, 5:07 pm, Jayne Kulikauskas >
wrote:

> I read the recent post about somebody's homemade proofer. It sounded
> fairly easy to make, although it would be nicer to figure out a way to
> incorporate the heater's warming bench.


Seems to me that would be simple... just invert a box or bus tub over
the dough placed on the warming bench... I'd still use clear or
translucent plastic for the ease of viewing but I suspect the proofing
times would be reliable and easy to coordinate with your oven.

I would experiment with different bread shapes and oven temperature.
You might find that you can bake a load of batards at a higher
temperature than boules. If so... you can sequence your loads by
shape.

I think you are going to have a lot of fun with this...

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> Supposedly the times that the oven reaches certain temperatures is
> consistent and predictable. For example, it might always be bread
> temperature 5 hours after firing. So, if the dough's timing is predictable
> too, it should be possible to coordinate them to occur at the same time.
>


if you bake at regular intervals (preferrably often), keep your
sourdough culture fresh and well fed, don't tend towards experimenting
with or tweaking your recipe then yes, your total proofing time should
be pretty predicatble. However if you like fairly cold proofing (and
retarding) and like to tweak/experiment (like me I guess) you may find
main proof time (basically dough should double in size) is up to one
or two hours out from anticipated. I guess I get stricter and less
experimental with myself (and the dough) when I am going to use my
wood-fired oven than when I turn a knob.

laters
andy f


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atty wrote:
> (Personally I don't bother with knock down proof
> after main proof since I think that is a stage necessitated by rough
> handling and extra dough added or subtracted to make exact dough
> weight by professional bakers).

It all depends on the results you are trying to achieve, the style of
bread you are making, and the conditions of your bakery. In short, it's
a tool, like any other.

"Sourdough" is not a style of bread, unless you qualify it, as in "San
Francisco Sourdough French Bread." Unqualified, sourdough is just a
riser and can be used to make any bread.

So, if you want a rustic bread with big holes, a single rise will help
you. Each time you knock down the dough and reform it, the crumb tends
to become more uniform. So, if you are trying for a pullman loaf, you
might be well advised to knock it down an additional time or two.

Also, at higher altitudes, it can help to get bread under control to let
it have an extra rise or two.

Most professional bakers handle their dough gently. At least the
artisan bakers.

Mike



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A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
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> "Sourdough" is not a style of bread, unless you qualify it, as in "San
> Francisco Sourdough French Bread." Unqualified, sourdough is just a
> riser and can be used to make any bread.
>


hmmm
I get your points generally Mike, though I think the need for
professional bakers (in the UK technically bread can only be sold as
800grm or 400grm units unless by weight) to scale their loaves does
impose on them an extra amount of dough chopping that the amateur
doesn't need to be bothered with.

however I think sourdough bread styles do fall within a group that is
distinct from commercial yeast bread styles and that is in the
emphasis on developing both flavour and crust which I think implies
relatively slow proofing and quality baking. I suppose in theory if
you had a fresh and active enough sourdough culture, innoculated dough
at a high percentage and proofed at high temperature you could get
near commercial yeast proofing times and with a similar bread flavour
result, but surely that would be defeating the point and not any
sourdough bread style. Unfortunately I have tasted quite a few such
'soudoughs' from bakers in recent times, though some of them were
probably, especially in France, purely out of a packet/sack. The
generality of French bakers shoot themselves in the foot every time
the public finds a bread more interesting than the quotidien by
producing some pale industrial imitation, or rather the big millers
do, which kills the goose with the golden egg. Before it was 'pain de
campagne', now the same thing is happening to 'pain au levain' and the
French millers are literally exporting it to UK supermarkets as well
(Sainsbury's La Brea Bakery label bread!) making it harder for real
artisan bakers to distinguish their products other than by word of
mouth.

question, what kind of surface/banetton or whatever can one do a
single proof rising in so the dough won't stick to the surface of
whatever. Its quite touch and go with my flour lined, linen lined
banetton for two hours as it is? would like to know since rustic and
wet style is my preference

yours
andy f

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atty wrote:

>> "Sourdough" is not a style of bread, unless you qualify it, as in
>> "San Francisco Sourdough French Bread." Unqualified, sourdough is
>> just a riser and can be used to make any bread.


> however I think sourdough bread styles do fall within a group that is
> distinct from commercial yeast bread styles...


Mike is right on that one. Sourdough is a process, not a "style."
Sourdough is the process of using *soured* (old) dough to rise a new
batch of dough.

B/
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On Feb 27, 1:50 am, Brian Mailman > wrote:
> atty wrote:
> >> "Sourdough" is not a style of bread, unless you qualify it, as in
> >> "San Francisco Sourdough French Bread." Unqualified, sourdough is
> >> just a riser and can be used to make any bread.

> > however I think sourdough bread styles do fall within a group that is
> > distinct from commercial yeast bread styles...

>
> Mike is right on that one. Sourdough is a process, not a "style."
> Sourdough is the process of using *soured* (old) dough to rise a new
> batch of dough.


hey
sourdough from a sourdough culture is not the same as old or 'rotten'
dough (previous day's) from commercial yeast added to fresh commercial
yeast dough which is what most modern bakers understand by an 'old
dough' method. Surely there's been enough scientific stuff quoted
before on this group to show that sourdough cultures are typically not
the same yeast as commercial 'bakers' yeast and/or are a mixture of
yeasts depending on the culture + lacto bacilli. I think the modern
'old dough' method basically came into being to mitigate the affects
on quality of the adoption of 'bakers yeast' commercially - and the
results can often be good but its still not exactly equivalent

laters
atty



> B/



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atty wrote:

> On Feb 27, 1:50 am, Brian Mailman > wrote:
>> atty wrote:
>> >> "Sourdough" is not a style of bread, unless you qualify it, as in
>> >> "San Francisco Sourdough French Bread." Unqualified, sourdough is
>> >> just a riser and can be used to make any bread.
>> > however I think sourdough bread styles do fall within a group that is
>> > distinct from commercial yeast bread styles...

>>
>> Mike is right on that one. Sourdough is a process, not a "style."
>> Sourdough is the process of using *soured* (old) dough to rise a new
>> batch of dough.

>
> hey
> sourdough from a sourdough culture is not the same as old or 'rotten'
> dough (previous day's) from commercial yeast added to fresh commercial
> yeast dough which is what most modern bakers understand by an 'old
> dough' method.


I didn't say sourdough culture related in any way to a commercial yeast
dough.

B/
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> I didn't say sourdough culture related in any way to a commercial yeast
> dough.


Sorry, its just when you wrote "*soured* (old) dough " I saw a
confusion with what I take usually to mean a method using old or
'rotten' dough from commercial yeast saved over from previous day

but when Mike wrote "Unqualified, sourdough is just a riser and can be
used to make any bread." I wrote back, yes maybe you can make more or
less any style of bread, but partly as a question of approach AND
also because you have the right tool - one's sourdough culture as
opposed to commercial cake bakers yeast - one tends to make a
particular group of styles of bread

yours
atty

> B/





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> but when Mike wrote "Unqualified, sourdough is just a riser and can be
> used to make any bread." I wrote back, yes maybe you can make more or
> less any style of bread, but partly as a question of approach AND
> also because you have the right tool - one's sourdough culture as
> opposed to commercial cake bakers yeast - one tends to make a
> particular group of styles of bread


so really we should say 'sourdough breads' (plural) to cover the range
of styles classically made with sourdough culture and methods. But
fact is that I have not yet seen at a commercial bakers anything more
than 'Sourdough bread' and sometimes also 'San Fransisco Sourdough
bread' however if you ask sometimes it will turn out all their breads
our sourdough risen, so so is really "Sourdough 40% rye", "Sourdough
wholemeal" etc

I have also seen "Sourdough (contains no yeast)" which is particularly
confusing for public - though I do indeed have a friend who can eat my
bread and other sourdoughs fine but is allergic to commercial yeast
risen bread (which must be a defining proof that at least my sourdough
culture doesn't contain commercial yeast strain).

yours
atty

> yours
> atty
>
> > B/



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On Feb 26, 6:08 pm, Jayne Kulikauskas >
wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:51:39 +0100, Andrew Price wrote:
> > On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:58:13 -0500, Jayne Kulikauskas
> > > wrote:

>
> > [---]

>
> >>You get low heat by waiting for it. The fire is lit only twice a day and
> >>burns itself out in a couple of hours.

>
> > If it's your main house heating, isn't it a bit constraining to have
> > to actually light the thing up twice a day - or do you in fact just
> > add more wood to the embers when you need to fire it again?

>
> It is easier to light it twice a day than to constantly feed a conventional
> fire.


The thing does have some ENORMOUS thermal mass. By the time the fire
burns itself out, some of the stones are still cool to the touch.
They're hot the next morning, though, and they're STILL warm by the
following evening, even if no fire has been lit in the morning.

By the way, Alex (the stove mason) has been over almost every evening
this last week, taking temperature and flue gas composition
measurements every 10 minutes (or was it 5 minutes?) and entering them
into a spreadsheet.


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atty wrote:
>> "Sourdough" is not a style of bread, unless you qualify it, as in "San
>> Francisco Sourdough French Bread." Unqualified, sourdough is just a
>> riser and can be used to make any bread.
>>

> I get your points generally Mike, though I think the need for
> professional bakers (in the UK technically bread can only be sold as
> 800grm or 400grm units unless by weight) to scale their loaves does
> impose on them an extra amount of dough chopping that the amateur
> doesn't need to be bothered with.
>

The chopping isn't as harmful as you might think, but most commercial
bakeries of any size use a stress free divider that does a very good job
of getting the dough weights correct on the first try.
> however I think sourdough bread styles do fall within a group that is
> distinct from commercial yeast bread styles and that is in the
> emphasis on developing both flavour and crust which I think implies
> relatively slow proofing and quality baking. I suppose in theory if
> you had a fresh and active enough sourdough culture, innoculated dough
> at a high percentage and proofed at high temperature you could get
> near commercial yeast proofing times and with a similar bread flavour
> result, but surely that would be defeating the point and not any
> sourdough bread style.

Well, let's take a different spin on it. Before the mid to late 1800's,
sourdough was the most used riser. Ale lees were used to some extent in
England, but not in many other countries (at least, not as far as I
understand things). And barm is basically just another way of handling
sourdough.

Thus, almost any bread that can be traced back to before that time was,
at one time, a sourdough bread.

Light white breads, sweet breads (not sweetbreads, they are something
different), rolls, ryes, whole wheat, Challah, sandwich bread, French
bread, baguettes, Italian breads and on and on and on... the breads were
all sourdough breads. If you make them with sourdough today, you are
returning these breads to traditional ways they were once made.

>
> question, what kind of surface/banetton or whatever can one do a
> single proof rising in so the dough won't stick to the surface of
> whatever. Its quite touch and go with my flour lined, linen lined
> banetton for two hours as it is? would like to know since rustic and
> wet style is my preference
>

While I know that this can be done, it isn't something that works for
the styles of breads I make. Of course, I also don't use bannetons or
brotformen for my commercial breads. I just form the loaves after the
first rise, put them on bakers parchment, lightly spray them with olive
oil, and cover them loosely with cling wrap.

But you might be able to get some hints at http://www.artisanbakers.com

Mike

PS - I hope the message subject wasn't off-putting. It was intended as
a joke, as many bakers refer to punching down the dough after the first
rise as "knocking" the dough. Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
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Your fond embrace
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Default Don't knock it if you haven't tried it....

On Feb 27, 4:01 pm, Mike Avery > wrote:
> atty wrote:


> Light white breads, sweet breads (not sweetbreads, they are something
> different), rolls, ryes, whole wheat, Challah, sandwich bread, French
> bread, baguettes, Italian breads and on and on and on... the breads were
> all sourdough breads. If you make them with sourdough today, you are
> returning these breads to traditional ways they were once made.
>


I think certain bread styles, as they are currently recognised, are
probabaly easier to get right with commercial yeast - indeed the
accepted 'best of kind' style in some cases may have evolved since the
introduction of commercial yeast to take advantage of its qualities
(lots of bubbles fast and predictably). Some 'styles', for instance
white sandwich (as on the supermarket shelf in plastic bag) I can't
really imagine making with a sourdough, and of coursefor that much not
yeasted at all but Chorley Wood process. We might hate that style but
small kids still go for it in preference to anything else in my
experience (is it just cause its sweet without hardly any crust?).

I was once taken to a 'trendy' restuarant in hip part of Barcelona
which served only what spanish call 'english bread' (untoasted) with a
selection of hot wet/sauce 'world ingredients' in between, for
instance curry between sandwich loaf slices, hawain style with
pineapple sandwich etc etc served on plate with knife and fork - one
of the most disgusting things I have ever been asked to eat and which
thankfully I haven't encountered anywhere since.

> > question, what kind of surface/banetton or whatever can one do a
> > single proof rising in so the dough won't stick to the surface of
> > whatever. Its quite touch and go with my flour lined, linen lined
> > banetton for two hours as it is? would like to know since rustic and
> > wet style is my preference

>
> While I know that this can be done, it isn't something that works for
> the styles of breads I make. Of course, I also don't use bannetons or
> brotformen for my commercial breads. I just form the loaves after the
> first rise, put them on bakers parchment, lightly spray them with olive
> oil, and cover them loosely with cling wrap.


hmm
my typical dough probably too wet to do a single proof free standing,
but oiled container might work (in fact I did try this before for
final proof with reasonable success). I did also find out by accident
on recent spanish travels with shop brought 'banneton' as bread basket
novelty type things (really being used as bannetons) that if the
bottom of the linen liner is not sowed down if there is any sticking
during turn out, linen comes with the dough rather than dough sticking
to bottom of basket, dough is thus easier to gently detach if stuck
any where, without so much stretching and mishaping resulting.

yours
atty


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Default Don't knock it if you haven't tried it....

We might hate that style but
> small kids still go for it in preference to anything else in my
> experience (is it just cause its sweet without hardly any crust?).
>


I forgot, its also the best bread by far for making pellets out to
flick (and bait fish hooks)



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Default Don't knock it if you haven't tried it....

On 27 Feb 2007 09:02:09 -0800, "atty" >
wrote:

>Some 'styles', for instance
>white sandwich (as on the supermarket shelf in plastic bag) I can't
>really imagine making with a sourdough


Howdy,

PMJI, but...

I have always taken that sort of bread to be the mass
produced imitation of the French "Pain de Mie" and that
works wonderfully well naturally leavened.

By the way, "baguettes" as we now know them were first made
in Paris in the 1930s and were always made with commercial
yeast.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
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Default Sourdough in a masonry oven

On Feb 13, 12:29 pm, "Mary Fisher" > wrote:
> "Jayne Kulikauskas" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > We are currently in the process of having a masonry heater built. We are
> > including the bread oven option. I have decided that I want to learn how
> > to make sourdough bread in this oven. I don't have much baking experience
> > though I have recently made a few batches of bread with baker's yeast in
> > an
> > electric (convection) oven. They were edible.

>
> > I notice the FAQ had an article on Dan Wing's _The Bread Builders_ that
> > seems like a book I should be getting because it looks like it deals
> > specifically with sourdough baked in masonry ovens.

>
> It does. We built our stone oven in the garden using the very helpful
> information in the book.
>
> > However, the review
> > says that it does not include recipes.

>
> Don't believe reviewers. My favourite recipe is an adaption of one in there.
> My sourdough starter was developed according to the instructions in there. I
> wouldn't be without that book.
>
> > I suspect this means that I need to
> > supplement it with at least one other resource. I think that I need a
> > book/web site that will be compatable enough with Dan Wing's advice so as
> > not to confuse me, suitable for a novice and supportive of my goal to bake
> > in my masonry oven. What do you suggest? Thanks.

>
> I was a novice to masonry ovens - working ones, that is. I had baked
> 'normal' bread for more than forty years. I'd flirted with sourdough several
> times over those years but none of the starters from any recipe book was as
> good or long-lived as the one in that book so I regarded myself as a novice.
>
> I suggest that you buy the book and read it. And then read it again. And
> again. And try what's suggested in there. You should have a better
> understanding of the processes of building the oven and making the starter
> and making the bread. It's an inspiration.
>
> There are those (among them me!) who say that just because something's in
> print doesn't make it so. I agree. But there are exceptions.
>
> By the same token just because something's on the net doesn't make it so.
>
> Get the book, read it more than once because you might not take everything
> in at the first go.
>
> Then think.
>
> Then wonder.
>
> Then take the plunge. And enjoy!
>
> Mary


Sorry, I've been lurking here, and you inspired me! I just received my
copy of The Bread Builders yesterday, and am looking forward to
reading it this weekend. I've got big plans for this spring/summer!




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Default Sourdough in a masonry oven


"Merryb" > wrote in message
ups.com...

....

>>
>> Get the book, read it more than once because you might not take
>> everything
>> in at the first go.
>>
>> Then think.
>>
>> Then wonder.
>>
>> Then take the plunge. And enjoy!
>>
>> Mary

>
> Sorry, I've been lurking here, and you inspired me! I just received my
> copy of The Bread Builders yesterday, and am looking forward to
> reading it this weekend. I've got big plans for this spring/summer!


Hurrah!

I must say that I have no connection with the book or its writers or
publishers, I'd never heard of it until - well, I can't remember how it came
to my notice. All I know is that when I did get it I read and re-read it.

A friend had sent me Kiko's book and I loved that but it didn't seem
practical to have a clay oven in Yorkshire. I know better now but that was
then. I nagged Spouse for two years before he got round to building my
oven - but in the meantime I was picking up stray bricks from anywhere and
scrounged stone from a son who was demolishing a structure in his 'new'
house. I had a lot of good and bad information from newsgroups, including
quite a lot of sneering and reasons why it wouldn't work and how it would
explode and blow the street to Kingdom Come :-)

I'm sure we made mistakes and might do things differently if we did it again
but we shan't do it again and I'm very pleased with what we did. It was fun
in the doing and in the using, friends love it, we've had - well - fun!

And it makes better bread than I can make in my domestic oven even after
fifty years of bread-making

If you'd like to see pictures of the building of ours just mail me.

Mary
>
>
>
>



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