Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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hi. new to this, so please excuse any errors of convention.
anyway, if anyone out there would be so kind as to advise, i'd like
to know what is meant by "inoculation?" would this be the storage
leaven that you use in the next stage?
another question i've had is on the amount of final leavening agent
(sponge?) added to the final dough. i typically note this as between
20 and 40 percent of the weight of the final dough. i wonder why this
amount, why not less? and why it's important to calculate against the
weight of the final dough--with bunches of grains, it could end up
that most of the flour in the recipe would exist in the leaven sponge.
could it have to do with the weight of the final dough necessary for
the leaven to oppose?
i hope these are not stupid questions. i've yet to see a justification
for it in recipes. thanks to any who reply.
-erich

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Inoculation: seems to be an initial introduction of some new
organism(s) into something which does not have it.

I would think with sourdough, this would only apply to the first stage.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...oogle+S earch

With the amounts of starter which go into the final dough - that depends
on the effects one wants to achieve.

Different amounts give different effects.

That's why there are recipes. Follow one and chances are that the
outcome is more or less similar to the original.

With sourdough, it's hardly happening that most of the flour is in the
starter. You would need to check your recipes to confirm that.


Samartha

wrote:
> hi. new to this, so please excuse any errors of convention.
> anyway, if anyone out there would be so kind as to advise, i'd like
> to know what is meant by "inoculation?" would this be the storage
> leaven that you use in the next stage?
> another question i've had is on the amount of final leavening agent
> (sponge?) added to the final dough. i typically note this as between
> 20 and 40 percent of the weight of the final dough. i wonder why this
> amount, why not less? and why it's important to calculate against the
> weight of the final dough--with bunches of grains, it could end up
> that most of the flour in the recipe would exist in the leaven sponge.
> could it have to do with the weight of the final dough necessary for
> the leaven to oppose?
> i hope these are not stupid questions. i've yet to see a justification
> for it in recipes. thanks to any who reply.
> -erich
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>

>
http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough
>


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> wrote in message oups.com...
> i'd like to know what is meant by "inoculation?"


to inoculate means the same as to infect by admixing
infected substance with non-infected-. not everyone
would agree that it is a good word for bakers to use.
(but it is.)

> another question i've had is on the amount of final
> leavening agent (sponge?) added to the final dough.


let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of
dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like,
say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at
once? would one to two be better, or one to four,
or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe?

kkkkl;llllllssssss oops I don't think my caps key is working.







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>Dick Adams wrote:

..
>>
>> let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of
>> dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like,
>> say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at
>> once? would one to two be better, or one to four,
>> or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe?
>>


>kkkkl;llllllssssss oops I don't think my caps key is working.


Dick I think he ask you/new_group what was the right amount of
cuture/starter to dough. Not weather his Cap_key was working.

Yes I know this question has been ask and answer many times but he is new
here.

Joe Umstead

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"Joe Umstead" > wrote in message
...
> >Dick Adams wrote:
> >>
> >> let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of
> >> dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like,
> >> say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at
> >> once? would one to two be better, or one to four,
> >> or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe?
> >>

>
> >kkkkl;llllllssssss oops I don't think my caps key is working.

>
> Dick I think he ask you/new_group what was the right amount of
> cuture/starter to dough. Not weather his Cap_key was working.
>
> Yes I know this question has been ask and answer many times
> but he is new here.
>


new lower-case noobie. joe, i want you to reply directly to his
post, and see if your caps key stops working. strange -- samartha
replied directly and his keyboard did not catch it.

oh -- and what is the right amount, while you are at it?

--
dicky



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"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

"Joe Umstead" > wrote in message
...
> >Dick Adams wrote:
> >>
> >> let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of
> >> dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like,
> >> say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at
> >> once? would one to two be better, or one to four,
> >> or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe?
> >>

>
> >kkkkl;llllllssssss oops I don't think my caps key is working.

>
> Dick I think he ask you/new_group what was the right amount of
> cuture/starter to dough. Not weather his Cap_key was working.
>
> Yes I know this question has been ask and answer many times
> but he is new here.
>


new lower-case noobie. joe, i want you to reply directly to his
post, and see if your caps key stops working. strange -- samartha
replied directly and his keyboard did not catch it.

oh -- and what is the right amount, while you are at it?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
sfunnybutwheneverireplytoalowercasewriter,allthewo rdsjointogether!graham.


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On 1 Feb, 01:46, wrote:
> hi. new to this, so please excuse any errors of convention.
> anyway, if anyone out there would be so kind as to advise, i'd like
> to know what is meant by "inoculation?" would this be the storage
> leaven that you use in the next stage?
> another question i've had is on the amount of final leavening agent
> (sponge?) added to the final dough. i typically note this as between
> 20 and 40 percent of the weight of the final dough. i wonder why this
> amount, why not less? and why it's important to calculate against the
> weight of the final dough--with bunches of grains, it could end up
> that most of the flour in the recipe would exist in the leaven sponge.
> could it have to do with the weight of the final dough necessary for
> the leaven to oppose?
> i hope these are not stupid questions. i've yet to see a justification
> for it in recipes. thanks to any who reply.
> -erich


Hi erich,

Well you've spotted your first convention error. These guys like to
see caps. : -)

1-65% it all doesn't matter. What does matter is how much you ferment
which bits. Some ferment the hell out of their starter and use a lot
to get 'sour' then they often spike it with yeast to get a reliable
rise. Then some use a little and ferment the hell out of their dough
and of course, all the variations in between.

Jim

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On 1 Feb 2007 09:24:15 -0800, "TG" >
wrote:

>1-65% it all doesn't matter.


Hi Jim,

I would suggest that it may not "matter" if, by that, you
mean that all proportions can make good bread.

The proportion does "matter" in that different proportions
produce different results.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
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wrote:
> hi. new to this, so please excuse any errors of convention.
> anyway, if anyone out there would be so kind as to advise, i'd like
> to know what is meant by "inoculation?" would this be the storage
> leaven that you use in the next stage?
>

Yes.
> another question i've had is on the amount of final leavening agent
> (sponge?) added to the final dough. i typically note this as between
> 20 and 40 percent of the weight of the final dough. i wonder why this
> amount, why not less?


> and why it's important to calculate against the
> weight of the final dough

It's a matter of convention.

> --with bunches of grains, it could end up
> that most of the flour in the recipe would exist in the leaven sponge.
> could it have to do with the weight of the final dough necessary for
> the leaven to oppose?
>

That's usually not a good idea, for reasons mentioned above. Also, I
find that when you have lots of grains you don't have lots of taste...
you get tasteless hippy lead bread. Not that there's anything wrong
with that if its what you wanted.
> i hope these are not stupid questions. i've yet to see a justification
> for it in recipes. thanks to any who reply.
>

Recipes aren't about justification. Neither are professional formulas.
Textbooks are about justifications.

Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
The cannoneers
With hairy ears
On wiry whiskers
Used tin shears
Until they found
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"TG" > wrote in message oups.com...
> Some ferment the hell out of their starter and use a lot
> to get 'sour' then they often spike it with yeast to get a reliable
> rise.


Oh, God help us! Are we still doing that?

That is the recipe for a sour brick, you know.

> Then some use a little and ferment the hell out of their
> dough ...


That seems a bit extreme.

Best advice, I think, likens feeding up a culture to starting
a bon fire.

Inoculate some batter, wait until it becomes active.
Do it again (feed it) starting with the whole amount.
Maybe do it one more time. Then with some luck
and some contrivance you'll have something you can
start some dough with.

Best advice for the batter with which to feed is 50-50
flour-water, by weight, or whatever it takes to make a
soft dough that does not collapse under its own weight.
That way you can gauge activity by height.

Now, what is the amount you will add to your final
dough? Well, if you do it my way, it will be about
ten fluid ounces, collapsed. But probably you won't.
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ions%5FRev.doc

--
Dicky





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On 1 Feb, 17:36, Kenneth > wrote:
> On 1 Feb 2007 09:24:15 -0800, "TG" >
> wrote:
>
> >1-65% it all doesn't matter.

>
> Hi Jim,
>
> I would suggest that it may not "matter" if, by that, you
> mean that all proportions can make good bread.
>
> The proportion does "matter" in that different proportions
> produce different results.
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


Hi Kenneth,

what does matter is that you read past the first sentence. : -)

Jim

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On 1 Feb, 19:17, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> "TG" > wrote in ooglegroups.com...
> > Some ferment the hell out of their starter and use a lot
> > to get 'sour' then they often spike it with yeast to get a reliable
> > rise.

>
> Oh, God help us! Are we still doing that?
>
> That is the recipe for a sour brick, you know.
>
> > Then some use a little and ferment the hell out of their
> > dough ...

>
> That seems a bit extreme.


LOL, High Dicky, God no. I'm not doing either. I felt answering the
question was more important than talking about myself though. : -) And
preempt him reading other places that you need to ferment the hell out
the starter or the dough. It is "Sourdough" Dicky. : -) I suppose I
could have just talked about typing skills though.

Jim

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Thanks, All, for you replies. Very helpful.

Thanks, Samartha. You said:

> Different amounts give different effects.


And Kenneth said:

>The proportion does "matter" in that different proportions
>produce different results.


Exactly what I'd like to research a little more. The effects of which
I believe myself to be aware, and please correct me if I'm wrong, a

LARGER = Extended Fermentation on more of the flour in the recipe
previous to it's addition to the final dough--greater conversion of
tastless starches to yummy sugars, possibly greater proportions of
lactic and/or acetic acid in the final dough.
LARGER/SMALLER = SHORTER/LONGER doubling times on the final dough.

Are any participants aware of previous discussions on this topic in
order to avoid repetitions for those who've been with this group
longer? That might serve me well, avoiding for the rest of you
needless repetition. Or perpahs it's all entertainment...

Again, Samartha:

> With sourdough, it's hardly happening that most of the flour is in the
> starter. You would need to check your recipes to confirm that.


Yeah. It seems odd to me, but I've been trying to develop some
recipes. For instance, I note the typical amount of leaven sponge
added to many recipes--20% to 40% of the final weight. Then, let's say
I'm adding those grains, though less than a "hippie bread" amount, at
40% of the flour in the recipe. I divide the target dough weight by
100(flour) + 65+/-(H2O) + 40(grains). I then multiply that amount by
the 100, then the 65, then the 40, to get the weights of those
ingredients. I multiply the target dough weight by .30+/- to get the
amount of leaven sponge I'll use. Since the leaven sponge I use in the
final dough is a 66% hydration, I calculate similarly the amount of
H2O and Flour I need to subract from the total amounts. Those weights
are the final additions of H2O and Flour to be added to the Leaven
sponge. I figure this way I'll know that I'm getting the right totals.
The results in the case that I've used a lot of additions--say a
raisen/pecan/date loaf, or a multi-grain near-hippie bread (most of my
bread is simple wheat/white/rye combinations where this it never an
issue)--is that the 30%+/- leaven sponge amount to the final dough
weight carries most of the flour in the recipe. So what I'd trying to
discover is whether my approach might need modification. That is, is
the leaven sponge % always calculated against the final dough weight?
If so, why? I thought the reason could be related to the force
(weight) of the dough to be countered (lifted). Maybe I'm far off the
mark. Dunno.

Dick phrases some lower-cased questions expressing capital concerns:

>let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of
>dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like,
>say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at
>once? would one to two be better, or one to four,
>or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe?


Exactly. For instance, I made a leaven sponge last night. It was late,
so I decided to reduce the size of my usual inoculation (feeling more
confident in using this word correctly) by more than half, hoping that
it would extend my usual four hour ferment by four more hours. This
way I can wake and begin mixing. It seemed to work out well. But what
are the effects on the final dough? What are the limits on
significance of these effects? It seems that if the cell populations
increase to double the size of the dough, regardless of whether one
uses a large amount of inoculation for a shorter time, or a small
amount of inoculation for a longer time, the final cell populations
will be the same. The difference being in the amount of time the flour
is hydrated and enzymes working.

Anyway, thanks again.

-Erich




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> wrote in message oups.com...

> [ ... ]


> It seems that if the cell populations increase to double the size
> of the dough, regardless of whether one uses a large amount of
> inoculation for a shorter time, or a small amount of inoculation
> for a longer time, the final cell populations will be the same ...


Possibly it is more complicated than that. But good work
on the capitals.

--
Dicky

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wrote:

[...]
> raisen/pecan/date loaf, or a multi-grain near-hippie bread (most of my
> bread is simple wheat/white/rye combinations where this it never an
> issue)--is that the 30%+/- leaven sponge amount to the final dough
> weight carries most of the flour in the recipe. So what I'd trying to
> discover is whether my approach might need modification. That is, is
> the leaven sponge % always calculated against the final dough weight?
> If so, why?


Not sure where you get this from. Normally I think it would be bakers %,
but nobody writes recipes in that manner - they use cups and spoons!

All sound complicated, but why not.

Maybe that's simpler:

Use baker % - all relative to total flour.

With starter, what counts is the ratio of starter flour to total flour.

So you have a clear handle on the starter amount. 15 % or so for white,
higher for rye.

With the other stuff - ingredients, you also go by bakers % - salt maybe
1.5 - 2 %, spices 1, 2, 3 %, seeds maybe 10 - 20. If it's flour, just
use ratios, for example: 5 % full grain wheat, 65 % white, 30 % rye and
deduct the starter flour from that, when you do the final dough.

Water also goes by baker % - dough hydration.

I made this calculator because it was always the same calculation:

http://samartha.net/SD/SDcalc04.html

> I thought the reason could be related to the force
> (weight) of the dough to be countered (lifted). Maybe I'm far off the
> mark. Dunno.


sure - that's a factor. But if you have a recipe, analyze it into ratios
and baker's %, then you can compare recipes. If one does not work well,
change what you think is off.

With your "the final cell populations will be the same" - true:
eventually decreasing and doing a lot of damage on the way there.

Samartha


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Thanks a lot.
Most of the recipes I've seen have starter amounts 20% to 40% of the
total dough amount, which is what I've been going by. It seems okay to
calculate the amount of starter needed for the fermentation times
desired. Perhaps I'm off the mark, though. Long, slow fermentations
are good. The temperatures at which it takes place, however, might
affect the types of acids produced (bacteria favored).

> With starter, what counts is the ratio of starter flour to total flour.


Would you mind explaining why the ratio of starter flour to total
flour counts? Perhaps that will help me to understand why.

Regardless. Thanks.

-Erich

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On 7 Feb, 23:48, " >
wrote:
> Thanks a lot.
> Most of the recipes I've seen have starter amounts 20% to 40% of the
> total dough amount, which is what I've been going by. It seems okay to
> calculate the amount of starter needed for the fermentation times
> desired. Perhaps I'm off the mark, though. Long, slow fermentations
> are good. The temperatures at which it takes place, however, might
> affect the types of acids produced (bacteria favored).
>
> > With starter, what counts is the ratio of starter flour to total flour.

>
> Would you mind explaining why the ratio of starter flour to total
> flour counts? Perhaps that will help me to understand why.
>
> Regardless. Thanks.
>
> -Erich


Hi Erich,

the starter flour is a guide to the number of organisms, assuming the
concentration of organisms is at the optimum, that you will be
introducing to the new flour/water mix.

We know from published data the rate of growth of the organisms for a
given temperature and it seems logical to assume that the rate of
fermentation is directly proportional. At least the bakes I've done so
far agrees with this assumption.

Jim

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wrote:
> Thanks a lot.
> Most of the recipes I've seen have starter amounts 20% to 40% of the
> total dough amount, which is what I've been going by. It seems okay to
> calculate the amount of starter needed for the fermentation times
> desired. Perhaps I'm off the mark, though. Long, slow fermentations
> are good. The temperatures at which it takes place, however, might
> affect the types of acids produced (bacteria favored).
>
>> With starter, what counts is the ratio of starter flour to total flour.

>
> Would you mind explaining why the ratio of starter flour to total
> flour counts? Perhaps that will help me to understand why.
>


Because water does not count very much in essence.

What counts are numbers of organisms which feed on solids (or
dissolved/converted solids) and taste/acid components produced while
growing the starter.

If you have a certain starter and add the same weight on water, lets
say, 1 kg starter (100 % hydration) and 1 kg water, you still have
essentially the same main important components (500 g) but if you add
this to a the final dough thinking you have 2 kg of starter, you are off
thinking in 2 kgs instead of 500 g starter flour.

It's probably easier practically to think total starter weight (or even
volume) instead of starter flour, but it's inaccurate and harder to compare.

This may play less a role with white flour breads for a home baker but
with rye, where acidity plays a role and in a production environment, I
think it is more of importance.

With rye you need a certain acid content in order to sufficiently
suppress amylase activity. You don't get it by having more water in the
starter but by fermenting the flour, so the flour amount counts.

Does that make sense?

Samartha


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> Does that make sense?


Yes. So, when discussing inoculation quantity, that would refer to
the amount of flour in the starter introduced to the final dough
rather than the total weight of the starter.

Thanks Jim and Samartha.

-Erich

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On 8 Feb, 21:30, " >
wrote:
> > Does that make sense?

>
> Yes. So, when discussing inoculation quantity, that would refer to
> the amount of flour in the starter introduced to the final dough
> rather than the total weight of the starter.
>
> Thanks Jim and Samartha.
>
> -Erich


Hi Erich,

You're welcome, but take care, not everyone talks about it in terms of
the flour, but you can usually work it out. It's one of those crazy
conventions. : -)

Jim



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I'll claim some credit for popularizing the term "inoculation".
if not introducing it, at r.f.s.

But we have clearly gone over the top here. Inoculation
means no more than introducing the microorganisms to
the dough (or whatever else is to be infected with them).

Where the dough is built by stages from the starter culture,
it is the first stage that is inoculated. Following stages are
feedings or refreshments. (A mother sponge is grown from
inoculum once in its lifetime, and rebuilt thereafter by feedings.)

Who am I to diddle the meanings of words? Well, if not
me, who?

Everything I am trying to say here, and more, is shown in
pictures at <http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/cmpd%5Fwthcurve.GIF>
Inoculation there occurs once, at the lower left.

Words are used very irresponsibly by bakers. Like "retardation",
"proof or proofing", "hydration", to mention a few. Probably it
is to late for these, but one may hope that "inoculation" can still be
saved.

--
Dicky
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Dick Adams wrote:
> I'll claim some credit for popularizing the term "inoculation".
> if not introducing it, at r.f.s.
>
> But we have clearly gone over the top here. Inoculation
> means no more than introducing the microorganisms to
> the dough (or whatever else is to be infected with them).
>
> Where the dough is built by stages from the starter culture,
> it is the first stage that is inoculated. Following stages are
> feedings or refreshments. (A mother sponge is grown from
> inoculum once in its lifetime, and rebuilt thereafter by feedings.)
>
> Who am I to diddle the meanings of words? Well, if not
> me, who?
>
> Everything I am trying to say here, and more, is shown in
> pictures at <http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/cmpd%5Fwthcurve.GIF>
> Inoculation there occurs once, at the lower left.


Ah - there on the left bottom:

AT&T Worldnet Accelerator, browse up to 5 x faster.

You may want to change that" browse" to "rise"

but what that's got to do with the phoneline is beyond my sourdough
understanding.



Page URL Not Found!!

The requested page does not exist on this server. The URL you typed or
followed is either outdated or inaccurate.

Type your search term above instead or try to click here
to let us help you find web pages you are looking for!

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"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message news:mailman.88.1171033114.1438.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior..com...
> Dick Adams wrote:
>> <http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/cmpd%5Fwthcurve.GIF>


> Page URL Not Found!!


Oh, fix it, will ya! And quit yer bitchin'!

Or see >

--
Dicky
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> Probably it is to late for these, but one may hope that "inoculation" can
still be saved.
>
> --
> Dicky


Mr Adams, should that not be "too" instead of "to" in your above sentence?

Joe Umstead
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On 9 Feb, 14:42, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> I'll claim some credit for popularizing the term "inoculation".
> if not introducing it, at r.f.s.
>
> But we have clearly gone over the top here. *Inoculation
> means no more than introducing the microorganisms to
> the dough (or whatever else is to be infected with them).


'inoculate |iˈnäkyəˌlāt| verb [ trans. ] ... introduce (cells or
organisms) into a culture medium.'

> Words are used very irresponsibly by bakers. *Like "retardation",
> "proof or proofing", "hydration", to mention a few. *Probably it
> is too late for these, but one may hope that "inoculation" can still be
> saved.
>
> --
> Dicky


Words or 'Memes' the lexicographers genes once introduced into the
environment have a habit of taking on a life of their own.

I think this is a very good word for describing the act of adding
starter to a dough of any kind or stage. Any other words you want to
give to the English Language Dicky?

Jim



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"TG" > wrote in message oups.com...

> I think this is a very good word for describing the act of adding
> starter to a dough of any kind or stage.


Or adding anything to anything, if you want to pursue that to an illogical
conclusion. But don't you think that one should endeavor to act
responsibly in these matters?

> Any other words you want to give to the English Language Dicky?


OK, here's one: Awpyoorz!

Time to go inoculate some of my bourbon with some of my red
vermouth.

--
Dicky

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"TG" > wrote in message oups.com...

> Any other words you want to give to the English Language Dicky?


Well, here is one, but not due to me:

YUM-O!

That's for when yummy! does not quite do it.

Please see www.buzzwhack.com

Here is one from me:

YUM-aargh!

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Dicky
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On 10 Feb, 15:20, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> "TG" > wrote in ooglegroups.com...
> > Any other words you want to give to the English Language Dicky?

...
> Here is one from me:
>
> YUM-aargh!
>
> --
> Dicky


I prefer Awpyoorz. Dicky. More punchy.

Jim


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On 10 Feb 2007 10:54:01 -0800, "TG" > wrote:

>I prefer Awpyoorz. Dicky. More punchy.


It's certainly classic Dick Adams. Although at first sight, I took it
to be the name of some obscure Indian city ...
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