Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
hi. new to this, so please excuse any errors of convention.
anyway, if anyone out there would be so kind as to advise, i'd like to know what is meant by "inoculation?" would this be the storage leaven that you use in the next stage? another question i've had is on the amount of final leavening agent (sponge?) added to the final dough. i typically note this as between 20 and 40 percent of the weight of the final dough. i wonder why this amount, why not less? and why it's important to calculate against the weight of the final dough--with bunches of grains, it could end up that most of the flour in the recipe would exist in the leaven sponge. could it have to do with the weight of the final dough necessary for the leaven to oppose? i hope these are not stupid questions. i've yet to see a justification for it in recipes. thanks to any who reply. -erich |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
> wrote in message oups.com... > i'd like to know what is meant by "inoculation?" to inoculate means the same as to infect by admixing infected substance with non-infected-. not everyone would agree that it is a good word for bakers to use. (but it is.) > another question i've had is on the amount of final > leavening agent (sponge?) added to the final dough. let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like, say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at once? would one to two be better, or one to four, or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe? kkkkl;llllllssssss oops I don't think my caps key is working. |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
>Dick Adams wrote:
.. >> >> let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of >> dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like, >> say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at >> once? would one to two be better, or one to four, >> or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe? >> >kkkkl;llllllssssss oops I don't think my caps key is working. Dick I think he ask you/new_group what was the right amount of cuture/starter to dough. Not weather his Cap_key was working. Yes I know this question has been ask and answer many times but he is new here. Joe Umstead |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
"Joe Umstead" > wrote in message ... > >Dick Adams wrote: > >> > >> let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of > >> dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like, > >> say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at > >> once? would one to two be better, or one to four, > >> or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe? > >> > > >kkkkl;llllllssssss oops I don't think my caps key is working. > > Dick I think he ask you/new_group what was the right amount of > cuture/starter to dough. Not weather his Cap_key was working. > > Yes I know this question has been ask and answer many times > but he is new here. > new lower-case noobie. joe, i want you to reply directly to his post, and see if your caps key stops working. strange -- samartha replied directly and his keyboard did not catch it. oh -- and what is the right amount, while you are at it? -- dicky |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
"Dick Adams" > wrote in message ... "Joe Umstead" > wrote in message ... > >Dick Adams wrote: > >> > >> let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of > >> dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like, > >> say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at > >> once? would one to two be better, or one to four, > >> or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe? > >> > > >kkkkl;llllllssssss oops I don't think my caps key is working. > > Dick I think he ask you/new_group what was the right amount of > cuture/starter to dough. Not weather his Cap_key was working. > > Yes I know this question has been ask and answer many times > but he is new here. > new lower-case noobie. joe, i want you to reply directly to his post, and see if your caps key stops working. strange -- samartha replied directly and his keyboard did not catch it. oh -- and what is the right amount, while you are at it? ----------------------------------------------------------------- sfunnybutwheneverireplytoalowercasewriter,allthewo rdsjointogether!graham. |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
On 1 Feb, 01:46, wrote:
> hi. new to this, so please excuse any errors of convention. > anyway, if anyone out there would be so kind as to advise, i'd like > to know what is meant by "inoculation?" would this be the storage > leaven that you use in the next stage? > another question i've had is on the amount of final leavening agent > (sponge?) added to the final dough. i typically note this as between > 20 and 40 percent of the weight of the final dough. i wonder why this > amount, why not less? and why it's important to calculate against the > weight of the final dough--with bunches of grains, it could end up > that most of the flour in the recipe would exist in the leaven sponge. > could it have to do with the weight of the final dough necessary for > the leaven to oppose? > i hope these are not stupid questions. i've yet to see a justification > for it in recipes. thanks to any who reply. > -erich Hi erich, Well you've spotted your first convention error. These guys like to see caps. : -) 1-65% it all doesn't matter. What does matter is how much you ferment which bits. Some ferment the hell out of their starter and use a lot to get 'sour' then they often spike it with yeast to get a reliable rise. Then some use a little and ferment the hell out of their dough and of course, all the variations in between. Jim |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
On 1 Feb 2007 09:24:15 -0800, "TG" >
wrote: >1-65% it all doesn't matter. Hi Jim, I would suggest that it may not "matter" if, by that, you mean that all proportions can make good bread. The proportion does "matter" in that different proportions produce different results. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
|
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
"TG" > wrote in message oups.com... > Some ferment the hell out of their starter and use a lot > to get 'sour' then they often spike it with yeast to get a reliable > rise. Oh, God help us! Are we still doing that? That is the recipe for a sour brick, you know. > Then some use a little and ferment the hell out of their > dough ... That seems a bit extreme. Best advice, I think, likens feeding up a culture to starting a bon fire. Inoculate some batter, wait until it becomes active. Do it again (feed it) starting with the whole amount. Maybe do it one more time. Then with some luck and some contrivance you'll have something you can start some dough with. Best advice for the batter with which to feed is 50-50 flour-water, by weight, or whatever it takes to make a soft dough that does not collapse under its own weight. That way you can gauge activity by height. Now, what is the amount you will add to your final dough? Well, if you do it my way, it will be about ten fluid ounces, collapsed. But probably you won't. http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ions%5FRev.doc -- Dicky |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
On 1 Feb, 17:36, Kenneth > wrote:
> On 1 Feb 2007 09:24:15 -0800, "TG" > > wrote: > > >1-65% it all doesn't matter. > > Hi Jim, > > I would suggest that it may not "matter" if, by that, you > mean that all proportions can make good bread. > > The proportion does "matter" in that different proportions > produce different results. > > All the best, > -- > Kenneth > > If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." Hi Kenneth, what does matter is that you read past the first sentence. : -) Jim |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
On 1 Feb, 19:17, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> "TG" > wrote in ooglegroups.com... > > Some ferment the hell out of their starter and use a lot > > to get 'sour' then they often spike it with yeast to get a reliable > > rise. > > Oh, God help us! Are we still doing that? > > That is the recipe for a sour brick, you know. > > > Then some use a little and ferment the hell out of their > > dough ... > > That seems a bit extreme. LOL, High Dicky, God no. I'm not doing either. I felt answering the question was more important than talking about myself though. : -) And preempt him reading other places that you need to ferment the hell out the starter or the dough. It is "Sourdough" Dicky. : -) I suppose I could have just talked about typing skills though. Jim |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
Thanks, All, for you replies. Very helpful.
Thanks, Samartha. You said: > Different amounts give different effects. And Kenneth said: >The proportion does "matter" in that different proportions >produce different results. Exactly what I'd like to research a little more. The effects of which I believe myself to be aware, and please correct me if I'm wrong, a LARGER = Extended Fermentation on more of the flour in the recipe previous to it's addition to the final dough--greater conversion of tastless starches to yummy sugars, possibly greater proportions of lactic and/or acetic acid in the final dough. LARGER/SMALLER = SHORTER/LONGER doubling times on the final dough. Are any participants aware of previous discussions on this topic in order to avoid repetitions for those who've been with this group longer? That might serve me well, avoiding for the rest of you needless repetition. Or perpahs it's all entertainment... Again, Samartha: > With sourdough, it's hardly happening that most of the flour is in the > starter. You would need to check your recipes to confirm that. Yeah. It seems odd to me, but I've been trying to develop some recipes. For instance, I note the typical amount of leaven sponge added to many recipes--20% to 40% of the final weight. Then, let's say I'm adding those grains, though less than a "hippie bread" amount, at 40% of the flour in the recipe. I divide the target dough weight by 100(flour) + 65+/-(H2O) + 40(grains). I then multiply that amount by the 100, then the 65, then the 40, to get the weights of those ingredients. I multiply the target dough weight by .30+/- to get the amount of leaven sponge I'll use. Since the leaven sponge I use in the final dough is a 66% hydration, I calculate similarly the amount of H2O and Flour I need to subract from the total amounts. Those weights are the final additions of H2O and Flour to be added to the Leaven sponge. I figure this way I'll know that I'm getting the right totals. The results in the case that I've used a lot of additions--say a raisen/pecan/date loaf, or a multi-grain near-hippie bread (most of my bread is simple wheat/white/rye combinations where this it never an issue)--is that the 30%+/- leaven sponge amount to the final dough weight carries most of the flour in the recipe. So what I'd trying to discover is whether my approach might need modification. That is, is the leaven sponge % always calculated against the final dough weight? If so, why? I thought the reason could be related to the force (weight) of the dough to be countered (lifted). Maybe I'm far off the mark. Dunno. Dick phrases some lower-cased questions expressing capital concerns: >let's say i dilute 1 oz. of storage culture to 2 lbs. of >dough. does it matter if i do it in several stages, like, >say, one part ripe culture to three parts other, or all at >once? would one to two be better, or one to four, >or one to five or ...? what is the right degree of ripe? Exactly. For instance, I made a leaven sponge last night. It was late, so I decided to reduce the size of my usual inoculation (feeling more confident in using this word correctly) by more than half, hoping that it would extend my usual four hour ferment by four more hours. This way I can wake and begin mixing. It seemed to work out well. But what are the effects on the final dough? What are the limits on significance of these effects? It seems that if the cell populations increase to double the size of the dough, regardless of whether one uses a large amount of inoculation for a shorter time, or a small amount of inoculation for a longer time, the final cell populations will be the same. The difference being in the amount of time the flour is hydrated and enzymes working. Anyway, thanks again. -Erich |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
> wrote in message oups.com... > [ ... ] > It seems that if the cell populations increase to double the size > of the dough, regardless of whether one uses a large amount of > inoculation for a shorter time, or a small amount of inoculation > for a longer time, the final cell populations will be the same ... Possibly it is more complicated than that. But good work on the capitals. -- Dicky |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
wrote:
[...] > raisen/pecan/date loaf, or a multi-grain near-hippie bread (most of my > bread is simple wheat/white/rye combinations where this it never an > issue)--is that the 30%+/- leaven sponge amount to the final dough > weight carries most of the flour in the recipe. So what I'd trying to > discover is whether my approach might need modification. That is, is > the leaven sponge % always calculated against the final dough weight? > If so, why? Not sure where you get this from. Normally I think it would be bakers %, but nobody writes recipes in that manner - they use cups and spoons! All sound complicated, but why not. Maybe that's simpler: Use baker % - all relative to total flour. With starter, what counts is the ratio of starter flour to total flour. So you have a clear handle on the starter amount. 15 % or so for white, higher for rye. With the other stuff - ingredients, you also go by bakers % - salt maybe 1.5 - 2 %, spices 1, 2, 3 %, seeds maybe 10 - 20. If it's flour, just use ratios, for example: 5 % full grain wheat, 65 % white, 30 % rye and deduct the starter flour from that, when you do the final dough. Water also goes by baker % - dough hydration. I made this calculator because it was always the same calculation: http://samartha.net/SD/SDcalc04.html > I thought the reason could be related to the force > (weight) of the dough to be countered (lifted). Maybe I'm far off the > mark. Dunno. sure - that's a factor. But if you have a recipe, analyze it into ratios and baker's %, then you can compare recipes. If one does not work well, change what you think is off. With your "the final cell populations will be the same" - true: eventually decreasing and doing a lot of damage on the way there. Samartha |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
Thanks a lot.
Most of the recipes I've seen have starter amounts 20% to 40% of the total dough amount, which is what I've been going by. It seems okay to calculate the amount of starter needed for the fermentation times desired. Perhaps I'm off the mark, though. Long, slow fermentations are good. The temperatures at which it takes place, however, might affect the types of acids produced (bacteria favored). > With starter, what counts is the ratio of starter flour to total flour. Would you mind explaining why the ratio of starter flour to total flour counts? Perhaps that will help me to understand why. Regardless. Thanks. -Erich |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
On 7 Feb, 23:48, " >
wrote: > Thanks a lot. > Most of the recipes I've seen have starter amounts 20% to 40% of the > total dough amount, which is what I've been going by. It seems okay to > calculate the amount of starter needed for the fermentation times > desired. Perhaps I'm off the mark, though. Long, slow fermentations > are good. The temperatures at which it takes place, however, might > affect the types of acids produced (bacteria favored). > > > With starter, what counts is the ratio of starter flour to total flour. > > Would you mind explaining why the ratio of starter flour to total > flour counts? Perhaps that will help me to understand why. > > Regardless. Thanks. > > -Erich Hi Erich, the starter flour is a guide to the number of organisms, assuming the concentration of organisms is at the optimum, that you will be introducing to the new flour/water mix. We know from published data the rate of growth of the organisms for a given temperature and it seems logical to assume that the rate of fermentation is directly proportional. At least the bakes I've done so far agrees with this assumption. Jim |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
|
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
> Does that make sense? Yes. So, when discussing inoculation quantity, that would refer to the amount of flour in the starter introduced to the final dough rather than the total weight of the starter. Thanks Jim and Samartha. -Erich |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
On 8 Feb, 21:30, " >
wrote: > > Does that make sense? > > Yes. So, when discussing inoculation quantity, that would refer to > the amount of flour in the starter introduced to the final dough > rather than the total weight of the starter. > > Thanks Jim and Samartha. > > -Erich Hi Erich, You're welcome, but take care, not everyone talks about it in terms of the flour, but you can usually work it out. It's one of those crazy conventions. : -) Jim |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
I'll claim some credit for popularizing the term "inoculation".
if not introducing it, at r.f.s. But we have clearly gone over the top here. Inoculation means no more than introducing the microorganisms to the dough (or whatever else is to be infected with them). Where the dough is built by stages from the starter culture, it is the first stage that is inoculated. Following stages are feedings or refreshments. (A mother sponge is grown from inoculum once in its lifetime, and rebuilt thereafter by feedings.) Who am I to diddle the meanings of words? Well, if not me, who? Everything I am trying to say here, and more, is shown in pictures at <http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/cmpd%5Fwthcurve.GIF> Inoculation there occurs once, at the lower left. Words are used very irresponsibly by bakers. Like "retardation", "proof or proofing", "hydration", to mention a few. Probably it is to late for these, but one may hope that "inoculation" can still be saved. -- Dicky |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
Dick Adams wrote:
> I'll claim some credit for popularizing the term "inoculation". > if not introducing it, at r.f.s. > > But we have clearly gone over the top here. Inoculation > means no more than introducing the microorganisms to > the dough (or whatever else is to be infected with them). > > Where the dough is built by stages from the starter culture, > it is the first stage that is inoculated. Following stages are > feedings or refreshments. (A mother sponge is grown from > inoculum once in its lifetime, and rebuilt thereafter by feedings.) > > Who am I to diddle the meanings of words? Well, if not > me, who? > > Everything I am trying to say here, and more, is shown in > pictures at <http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/cmpd%5Fwthcurve.GIF> > Inoculation there occurs once, at the lower left. Ah - there on the left bottom: AT&T Worldnet Accelerator, browse up to 5 x faster. You may want to change that" browse" to "rise" but what that's got to do with the phoneline is beyond my sourdough understanding. Page URL Not Found!! The requested page does not exist on this server. The URL you typed or followed is either outdated or inaccurate. Type your search term above instead or try to click here to let us help you find web pages you are looking for! |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message news:mailman.88.1171033114.1438.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior..com... > Dick Adams wrote: >> <http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/cmpd%5Fwthcurve.GIF> > Page URL Not Found!! Oh, fix it, will ya! And quit yer bitchin'! Or see > -- Dicky |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
> Probably it is to late for these, but one may hope that "inoculation" can
still be saved. > > -- > Dicky Mr Adams, should that not be "too" instead of "to" in your above sentence? Joe Umstead |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
On 9 Feb, 14:42, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> I'll claim some credit for popularizing the term "inoculation". > if not introducing it, at r.f.s. > > But we have clearly gone over the top here. *Inoculation > means no more than introducing the microorganisms to > the dough (or whatever else is to be infected with them). 'inoculate |iˈnäkyəˌlāt| verb [ trans. ] ... introduce (cells or organisms) into a culture medium.' > Words are used very irresponsibly by bakers. *Like "retardation", > "proof or proofing", "hydration", to mention a few. *Probably it > is too late for these, but one may hope that "inoculation" can still be > saved. > > -- > Dicky Words or 'Memes' the lexicographers genes once introduced into the environment have a habit of taking on a life of their own. I think this is a very good word for describing the act of adding starter to a dough of any kind or stage. Any other words you want to give to the English Language Dicky? Jim |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
"TG" > wrote in message oups.com... > I think this is a very good word for describing the act of adding > starter to a dough of any kind or stage. Or adding anything to anything, if you want to pursue that to an illogical conclusion. But don't you think that one should endeavor to act responsibly in these matters? > Any other words you want to give to the English Language Dicky? OK, here's one: Awpyoorz! Time to go inoculate some of my bourbon with some of my red vermouth. -- Dicky |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
"TG" > wrote in message oups.com... > Any other words you want to give to the English Language Dicky? Well, here is one, but not due to me: YUM-O! That's for when yummy! does not quite do it. Please see www.buzzwhack.com Here is one from me: YUM-aargh! -- Dicky |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
On 10 Feb, 15:20, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> "TG" > wrote in ooglegroups.com... > > Any other words you want to give to the English Language Dicky? ... > Here is one from me: > > YUM-aargh! > > -- > Dicky I prefer Awpyoorz. Dicky. More punchy. Jim |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
|
|||
|
|||
inoculation
On 10 Feb 2007 10:54:01 -0800, "TG" > wrote:
>I prefer Awpyoorz. Dicky. More punchy. It's certainly classic Dick Adams. Although at first sight, I took it to be the name of some obscure Indian city ... |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Inoculation, chemicals and water quantity calculations for a secondwine... | Winemaking | |||
inoculation | Sourdough |