Even after just 2 loaves of bread and about a week and a half my King
Arthur sourdough starter is REALLY sour. Is there any way to make it
less sour/sweeten it short of adding a sweetener?

I Googled this site and the Internet and all I found to sweeten the
starter was to use a little diastatic malt, a little syrup, a little
sugar, a little baking soda. Is there any way to sweeten it by
altering the flour, water, time, etc.?
Thanks
Russ

On 3 Jan 2007 14:48:44 -0800, "PastorDIC"
> wrote:

>Even after just 2 loaves of bread and about a week and a half my King
>Arthur sourdough starter is REALLY sour.

Howdy,

Is it the starter that is sour, or the bread you bake with
it?

If the former, I'd suggest that you stop tasting the
starter.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Now THAT'S funny :-)

The baked bread is what is extra sour.
Russ

On Jan 3, 2:54 pm, Kenneth > wrote:
> On 3 Jan 2007 14:48:44 -0800, "PastorDIC"
>
> > wrote:
> >Even after just 2 loaves of bread and about a week and a half my King
> >Arthur sourdough starter is REALLY sour.Howdy,
>
> Is it the starter that is sour, or the bread you bake with it?
>
> If the former, I'd suggest that you stop tasting the starter.
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"PastorDIC" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Now THAT'S funny :-)
>
> The baked bread is what is extra sour.
> Russ
>
Then try Dick Adams' recipe for "Billowy SD Bread". It's excellent and not
tooth-enamel-stripping sour!
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/billowy.html
Graham

PastorDIC wrote:
> Now THAT'S funny :-)
>
> The baked bread is what is extra sour.
> Russ
>
> On Jan 3, 2:54 pm, Kenneth > wrote:
>
>>On 3 Jan 2007 14:48:44 -0800, "PastorDIC"
>>
> wrote:
>>
>>>Even after just 2 loaves of bread and about a week and a half my King
>>>Arthur sourdough starter is REALLY sour.Howdy,
>>
>>Is it the starter that is sour, or the bread you bake with it?
>>
>>If the former, I'd suggest that you stop tasting the starter.
>>
>>All the best,
>>--
>>Kenneth
>>
>>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>
>
How did you get it to be sour? How long did you proof it, what temp,
etc? Many people like it sour and the answers might also tell people
enough to let you know what to change for less sour bread.
Ellen

PastorDIC wrote:
> Even after just 2 loaves of bread and about a week and a half my King
> Arthur sourdough starter is REALLY sour. Is there any way to make it
> less sour/sweeten it short of adding a sweetener?
>
> I Googled this site and the Internet and all I found to sweeten the
> starter was to use a little diastatic malt, a little syrup, a little
> sugar, a little baking soda. Is there any way to sweeten it by
> altering the flour, water, time, etc.?
>

King Arthur brags that their starter produces very sour bread, so you
may be getting what you paid for.

However, here are things that tend to increase sourness... do the
opposite and you will minimize sourness. Some of these things will
depend on the culture you are using....

Higher ash flours tend to increase sourness. Lower ash flours tend to
reduce it.

Longer rises tend to increase sourness. Lower rise times tend to reduce it.

Less starter tends to produce more sourness. More tends to produce
milder bread.

Higher temperatures (> 85F) tends to produce more sourness. Lower
temperature rises tend to produce less sour.

Hope this helps,
Mike

--
....The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world...

Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Room temperature (no thermometer). Activated the starter for 1 1/2
hour. 1st, 2nd and baking rise were about 1 hour each.
Thanks. Russ.

>On Jan 3, 3:31 pm, ellen wickberg > wrote:
> How did you get it to be sour? How long did you proof it, what temp,
> etc? Many people like it sour and the answers might also tell people
> enough to let you know what to change for less sour bread.
> Ellen-

I have been using 1 1/4 cup starter, all Bob's Red Mill 100% stone
ground whole wheat flour (no white flour etc. due to my wife being
prediabetic). I activated the starter for 1 1/2 hour. 1st, 2nd and
baking rise were about 1 hour each. Unknown room temperature, baking
temperature was 350 F.
Thanks. Russ.


On Jan 3, 3:31 pm, Mike Avery > wrote:
> PastorDIC wrote:
> > Even after just 2 loaves of bread and about a week and a half my King
> > Arthur sourdough starter is REALLY sour. Is there any way to make it
> > less sour/sweeten it short of adding a sweetener?
>
> > I Googled this site and the Internet and all I found to sweeten the
> > starter was to use a little diastatic malt, a little syrup, a little
> > sugar, a little baking soda. Is there any way to sweeten it by
> > altering the flour, water, time, etc.?King Arthur brags that their starter produces very sour bread, so you
> may be getting what you paid for.
>
> However, here are things that tend to increase sourness... do the
> opposite and you will minimize sourness. Some of these things will
> depend on the culture you are using....
>
> Higher ash flours tend to increase sourness. Lower ash flours tend to
> reduce it.
>
> Longer rises tend to increase sourness. Lower rise times tend to reduce it.
>
> Less starter tends to produce more sourness. More tends to produce
> milder bread.
>
> Higher temperatures (> 85F) tends to produce more sourness. Lower
> temperature rises tend to produce less sour.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Mike

PastorDIC wrote:
> Room temperature (no thermometer). Activated the starter for 1 1/2
> hour. 1st, 2nd and baking rise were about 1 hour each.
>
Given that, I would suggest switching to a milder starter. I would
suggest Carl's, but remember some unpleasantness there.

So, instead I'll suggest the very similar Sourdough's International
Russian starter. It tends to be fast, give a good rise, and deliver a
milder flavor profile.

Mike


--
....The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world...

Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

PastorDIC wrote:
> I have been using 1 1/4 cup starter, all Bob's Red Mill 100% stone
> ground whole wheat flour (no white flour etc. due to my wife being
> prediabetic). I activated the starter for 1 1/2 hour. 1st, 2nd and
> baking rise were about 1 hour each. Unknown room temperature, baking
> temperature was 350 F.
> T
A good part of the sourness will be due to the whole wheat flour.
However, your rise times are very short, which suggests the culture, or
the way you are handling it, are producing a lot of sour.

Again, I'll suggest getting a milder culture.

Mike


--
....The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world...

Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

"PastorDIC" > wrote in message oups.com...

> The baked bread is what is extra sour.

Most people complain because their bread is not
sour enough. You should ask yourself what you
did right?

That's assuming that what you got was a loaf of
bread and not the usual newby sour brick.

--
Dicky

PastorDIC wrote:
> I have been using 1 1/4 cup starter, all Bob's Red Mill 100% stone
> ground whole wheat....each. Unknown room temperature, baking
> temperature was 350 F.
> Thanks. Russ.
>

>From what you've said I'd feed your starter more, it sounds like you're
fermenting the hell out of it and using loads compared to flour. Start
from about 1 tsp and build up as quickly as your starter will allow,
(about 1-2 cups of flour and enough water to make a batter) this will
stop you over proofing your starter. When it peaks use it to make some
bread or put it in the fridge and use it as soon as you can, use about
1 cup of starter to about 4 cups of flour. Allow the dough to double
and continue as normal. If the room temp is just comfortable without a
coat on or speedos it's fine. : -)

Jim

PastorDIC wrote:
> Even after just 2 loaves of bread and about a week and a half my King
> Arthur sourdough starter is REALLY sour. Is there any way to make it
> less sour/sweeten it short of adding a sweetener?


Adding sugar, honey, malt, etc... will make the sour stronger. I would
try this...

1) Take your recipe and use all of the water in a sponge build.
2) Commit enough wheat flour to the sponge build to get a heavy cream
consistency (WITHOUT ADDING STARTER)
3) let the wheat and water sponge work overnight. Then add your
starter. When the sponge looks modestly active, add the balance of
flour and make dough.
4) Increase your salt to 2%, mix it into the wheat sponge just before
adding the starter.
5) Skip the second proof cycle. Go with one bulk proof, one finish
proof.

What you want to do is shorten the fermentation cycle without reducing
the benefits of longer hydration. Longer hydration allows the enzymatic
side to continue, the gluten building to continue and flavor
development to continue. All of these things make better dough. By
hydrating the flour BEFORE inoculating it, you will slow the
fermentation down. Why? Gluten will have developed, gasses will be
trapped more easily and the critters will be more constrained by their
metabolic byproducts... in short, less total acid will be generated.

Other things to consider... wheat, particularly red wheat can become
very sour. You might try replacing with about 15 percent cooked oats or
barley. You might want to do that anyway... makes for a great crumb <g>.

"Will" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Adding sugar, honey, malt, etc... will make the sour stronger. I would
> try this...
>
> 1) Take your recipe and use all of the water in a sponge build.
> 2) Commit enough wheat flour to the sponge build to get a heavy cream
> consistency (WITHOUT ADDING STARTER)
> 3) let the wheat and water sponge work overnight. Then add your
> starter. When the sponge looks modestly active, add the balance of
> flour and make dough.
> 4) Increase your salt to 2%, mix it into the wheat sponge just before
> adding the starter.
> 5) Skip the second proof cycle. Go with one bulk proof, one finish
> proof.
>
> What you want to do is shorten the fermentation cycle without reducing
> the benefits of longer hydration. Longer hydration allows the enzymatic
> side to continue, the gluten building to continue and flavor
> development to continue. All of these things make better dough. By
> hydrating the flour BEFORE inoculating it, you will slow the
> fermentation down. Why? Gluten will have developed, gasses will be
> trapped more easily and the critters will be more constrained by their
> metabolic byproducts... in short, less total acid will be generated.
>
> Other things to consider... wheat, particularly red wheat can become
> very sour. You might try replacing with about 15 percent cooked oats or
> barley. You might want to do that anyway... makes for a great crumb <g>.
>
will, thank you for the above. having seen this discussion many times over
the past 2 years i didn't think i would see anything new in the advise
given. i printed your comment for further digestion and application to my
bread.

dan w

"PastorDIC" > wrote in message s.com...
> Even after just 2 loaves of bread and about a week and a half my King
> Arthur sourdough starter is REALLY sour. Is there any way to make it
> less sour/sweeten it short of adding a sweetener?

"PastorDIC" > wrote in message oups.com...
> I have been using 1 1/4 cup starter, all Bob's Red Mill 100% stone
> ground whole wheat flour (no white flour etc. due to my wife being
> prediabetic). I activated the starter for 1 1/2 hour. 1st, 2nd and
> baking rise were about 1 hour each. Unknown room temperature,
> baking temperature was 350 F.

Those times a very short, and rises very numerous. It does not seem
like any SD procedure I ever heard of. It takes me ~24 hours to make
sourdough loaves starting with dormant starter. And certainly not
objectionably sour ones.

How can room temperature be unknown? Look around -- maybe there
is a thermostat someplace on your walls.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:

>
> "PastorDIC" > wrote in message
> s.com...
>> Even after just 2 loaves of bread and about a week and a half my King
>> Arthur sourdough starter is REALLY sour. Is there any way to make it
>> less sour/sweeten it short of adding a sweetener?
>
> "PastorDIC" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> I have been using 1 1/4 cup starter, all Bob's Red Mill 100% stone
>> ground whole wheat flour (no white flour etc. due to my wife being
>> prediabetic). I activated the starter for 1 1/2 hour. 1st, 2nd and
>> baking rise were about 1 hour each. Unknown room temperature,
>> baking temperature was 350 F.
>
> Those times a very short, and rises very numerous. It does not seem
> like any SD procedure I ever heard of. It takes me ~24 hours to make
> sourdough loaves starting with dormant starter. And certainly not
> objectionably sour ones.
>
> How can room temperature be unknown? Look around -- maybe there
> is a thermostat someplace on your walls.
>
> --
> Dicky
That a Boy Dicky.

No wonder the USA in so much trouble with people who do not know how to find
the temperature of a room.

HHG Driver, Joe Umstead

I activated the starter for 1 1/2 hour. 1st, 2nd and
> > baking rise were about 1 hour each. Unknown room temperature,
> > baking temperature was 350 F.
>Those times a very short, and rises very numerous. It does not seem
> like any SD procedure I ever heard of. It takes me ~24 hours to make
> sourdough loaves starting with dormant starter. And certainly not
> objectionably sour ones.
>
> How can room temperature be unknown? Look around -- maybe there
> is a thermostat someplace on your walls.
> --
> Dicky

The sourdough procedure is from someone on this list.

You can't have an unknown temperature? You must have one of those
newfangled thermostats with lots of gradients marked and ones that work
right. :-) Ours has notches with large spaces in between. Some of
the rooms dont even register right. In one room it will be on a low
notch. In another to get it even to click on it must be at 90 or 100,
and the knob isn't even loose.
Russ

PastorDIC wrote:

> You can't have an unknown temperature? You must have one of those
> newfangled thermostats with lots of gradients marked and ones that work
> right. :-) Ours has notches with large spaces in between. Some of
> the rooms dont even register right. In one room it will be on a low
> notch. In another to get it even to click on it must be at 90 or 100,
> and the knob isn't even loose.

Russ,

I'm confused <g>...

In your thread comments about Carl's starter not working you had the
wife double check the temperature...

Will

On Jan 6, 2:22 pm, "Will" > wrote:
> PastorDIC wrote:
> > You can't have an unknown temperature? You must have one of those
> > newfangled thermostats with lots of gradients marked and ones that work
> > right. :-) Ours has notches with large spaces in between. Some of
> > the rooms dont even register right. In one room it will be on a low
> > notch. In another to get it even to click on it must be at 90 or 100,
> > and the knob isn't even loose.Russ,
>
> I'm confused <g>...
>
> In your thread comments about Carl's starter not working you had the
> wife double check the temperature...

My wife double checked the -water- temperature using the old put a few
drops of water on your wrist method.
Russ
> Will

In fact, Mike, it was the 100% Whole Wheat recipe on your site.
Russ

On Jan 3, 4:03 pm, "PastorDIC" > wrote:
> I have been using 1 1/4 cup starter, all Bob's Red Mill 100% stone
> ground whole wheat flour (no white flour etc. due to my wife being
> prediabetic). I activated the starter for 1 1/2 hour. 1st, 2nd and
> baking rise were about 1 hour each. Unknown room temperature, baking
> temperature was 350 F.
> Thanks. Russ.
>
> On Jan 3, 3:31 pm, Mike Avery > wrote:
>
>>King Arthur brags that their starter produces very sour bread, so you
> > may be getting what you paid for.
>
> > However, here are things that tend to increase sourness... do the
> > opposite and you will minimize sourness. Some of these things will
> > depend on the culture you are using....
>
> > Higher ash flours tend to increase sourness. Lower ash flours tend to
> > reduce it.
>
> > Longer rises tend to increase sourness. Lower rise times tend to reduce it.
>
> > Less starter tends to produce more sourness. More tends to produce
> > milder bread.
>
> > Higher temperatures (> 85F) tends to produce more sourness. Lower
> > temperature rises tend to produce less sour.
>
> > Hope this helps,
> > Mike- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

PastorDIC wrote:
> In fact, Mike, it was the 100% Whole Wheat recipe on your site.
> Russ
>
Yeah, I know. However, the rise times seem WAY too short for
sourdough. Something is happening here, but I don't know what.

Mike

--
....The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world...

Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

PastorDIC wrote:

Hi Russ

Now you've got your scales try this recipe

starter 15g 3%
flour 540g 100%
water 350g 65%
salt 10g 2%
total 905g

Rounded slightly of an easy life. : -)

The temp is a winter room temp of about 18°C 65°F the rise time
should be around 24 hours at this temp.

Add the starter to the bowl then water, mix, add the flour and then
weigh out the salt on a plate or something just in case, then add the
salt onto the flour. Mix til the flour is all wet about 30 seconds and
cover with film. At some point after one and befor 12 hours or so tip
out the dough onto a dry counter top, no flour needed. Now pick up the
dough with both hands leaving part of the dough stuck to the top. Pull
the dough towards you and separate your hands. Slap the the stretched
dough back over the stuck down bit, turn the dough 90° and repeat til
the dough is springy. This will take about 10 seconds. Then return it
to the bowl. (I've made a video of this but I can't publish it
anywhere as it needs compressing. I've tried a couple of things but it
then doesn't play very smoothly. )

Three hours or so before baking tip the dough out using a spatula onto
a floured, this time, work top. Gently even out the dough to a square
or round. Divide to the size you want. Then shape the pieces to either
balls or sausages by folding and pinch the seams depending how you are
going to finally shape. Leave them for 15 minutes to rest. Now Shape
them one final time and leave them to rise. I love my linen cloths for
this now. : -)

Bake . I set the oven to 400-425F.

Jim

TG wrote:
SnF video.

Sorry about my vest : - )

http://tinyurl.com/ygt52v

Jim

I'll have to try it, only how do you come up with 170% for total
percentages?
Russ

On Jan 7, 5:00 am, "TG" > wrote:
> PastorDIC wrote:Hi Russ
>
> Now you've got your scales try this recipe
>
> starter 15g 3%
> flour 540g 100%
> water 350g 65%
> salt 10g 2%
> total 905g
>
> Rounded slightly of an easy life. : -)
>
> The temp is a winter room temp of about 18°C 65°F the rise time
> should be around 24 hours at this temp.
>
> Add the starter to the bowl then water, mix, add the flour and then
> weigh out the salt on a plate or something just in case, then add the
> salt onto the flour. Mix til the flour is all wet about 30 seconds and
> cover with film. At some point after one and befor 12 hours or so tip
> out the dough onto a dry counter top, no flour needed. Now pick up the
> dough with both hands leaving part of the dough stuck to the top. Pull
> the dough towards you and separate your hands. Slap the the stretched
> dough back over the stuck down bit, turn the dough 90° and repeat til
> the dough is springy. This will take about 10 seconds. Then return it
> to the bowl. (I've made a video of this but I can't publish it
> anywhere as it needs compressing. I've tried a couple of things but it
> then doesn't play very smoothly. )
>
> Three hours or so before baking tip the dough out using a spatula onto
> a floured, this time, work top. Gently even out the dough to a square
> or round. Divide to the size you want. Then shape the pieces to either
> balls or sausages by folding and pinch the seams depending how you are
> going to finally shape. Leave them for 15 minutes to rest. Now Shape
> them one final time and leave them to rise. I love my linen cloths for
> this now. : -)
>
> Bake . I set the oven to 400-425F.
>
> Jim

PastorDIC wrote:

> I'll have to try it, only how do you come up with 170% for total
> percentages?
> Russ

Look up "Bakers' percentage", Russ!
The units are expressed as percent of the total flour weight, not of the
total recipe. In the latter case, they would of course add up to 100%,
but Bakers' Percent is more correctly a ratio of each ingredient to the
flour.

Dave

PastorDIC wrote:
> I'll have to try it, only how do you come up with 170% for total
> percentages?
Bakers percentages in the USA are a bit odd at first glance. The flour
is always 100%, and all other ingredients are expressed as a percentage
of the flour.

So, a typical baguette might be...

flour 100%
water 60%
salt 2%
yeast 1%

or, 163%.

It is counterintuitive at first, but it is standard practice.

Mike

On January 07, 2007, Jim wrote:

> Sorry about my vest : - )
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ygt52v
>
Hey Jim:

Never saw your vest but thanks so very much for taking the time and effort
to share :-).

Regards,

Ray

WRK wrote:
your vest but thanks so very much for taking the time and effort
> to share :-).
> Ray

lol, thanks Ray, you're welcome.

Jim

PastorDIC wrote:
> I'll have to try it, only how do you come up with 170% for total
> percentages?
> Russ
>
> On Jan 7, 5:00 am, "TG" > wrote:
> > PastorDIC wrote:Hi Russ
> >
> > Now you've got your scales try this recipe
> >
> > starter 15g 3%
> > flour 540g 100%
> > water 350g 65%
> > salt 10g 2%
> > total 905g

It's not too complicated to work out. You just have to remember it
isn't like the percentages you use in ordinary life.

100 over Flour (F) times Ingredient (I) gives you the Baker's %

100 / F x I = Baker's%

100 / 540 x 15 = 2.77
100 / 540 x 540 = 100
100 / 540 x 350 = 120.37
100 / 540 x 10 = 1.85

I was very bad when I made that post but the regulars would have
understood by the figures what I meant.

I gave the figures as totals, that is with the starter's flour and
water included but then expressed the starter as a % of the new
flour.
You'll get used to it. : -) Just remember it's a kind of short hand
just another case of we bakers making things complicated. Lol. Don't
worry about you'll just soak it up by reading here.

Sorry about that.

Jim

TG wrote:


>
> 100 over Flour (F) times Ingredient (I) gives you the Baker's %
>
> 100 / F x I = Baker's%
>
> 100 / 540 x 15 = 2.77
> 100 / 540 x 540 = 100
> 100 / 540 x 350 = 120.37


100/540x350=120.37
Is not this a mistake, should it not be:
100/540x350=64.81481475 ?

Joe Umstead


> 100 / 540 x 10 = 1.85
>

>
> Jim

Joe Umstead wrote:
> TG wrote:
>
>
> >
> > 100 over Flour (F) times Ingredient (I) gives you the Baker's %
> >
> > 100 / F x I = Baker's%
> >
> > 100 / 540 x 15 = 2.77
> > 100 / 540 x 540 = 100
> > 100 / 540 x 350 = 120.37
>
>
> 100/540x350=120.37
> Is not this a mistake, should it not be:
> 100/540x350=64.81481475 ?
>
> Joe Umstead

I was just testing Joe. : - )

Yes, I very quickly typed that into excel this morning. I wasn't
thinking but new something wasn't quite right. I don't know where that
figure came from though. I didn't save it.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Jim

"Joe Umstead" > wrote in message ...

> 100/540x350=120.37
> Is not this a mistake, should it not be:
> 100/540x350=64.81481475 ?

Well, approximately.

Clearly you have one of those low-precision
calculators.

It is actually closer to 64.814814814814814814814814814...

But, you know, cups are fine in most cases.

--
Dicky

On Jan 10, 1:46 am, "TG" > wrote:
> PastorDIC wrote:
> > I'll have to try it, only how do you come up with 170% for total
> >percentages?
> > Russ
>
> > On Jan 7, 5:00 am, "TG" > wrote:
> > > PastorDIC wrote:Hi Russ
>
> > > Now you've got your scales try this recipe
>
> > > starter 15g 3%
> > > flour 540g 100%
> > > water 350g 65%
> > > salt 10g 2%
> > > total 905g
>It's not too complicated to work out. You just have to remember it
> isn't like thepercentagesyou use in ordinary life.
>
> 100 over Flour (F) times Ingredient (I) gives you the Baker's %
>
> 100 / F x I = Baker's%
>
> 100 / 540 x 15 = 2.77
> 100 / 540 x 540 = 100
> 100 / 540 x 350 = 120.37
> 100 / 540 x 10 = 1.85
>
> I was very bad when I made that post but the regulars would have
> understood by the figures what I meant.

>
> Sorry about that.
> Jim

Thanks for all the good information. I understand it much better now
Also, once someone said it was Baker's Percentages, then I had
something I could look up for even more information.

I am confused about one thing. What good is baker's percentages unless
you are making a large volume of bread? If you are already weighing
things out and measuring in grams/kilograms, then even a math idiot
wanabe like myself could figure out how to multiply a recipe or cut it
in half easily even without the percentages. I could see it in
comercial proportions, but what about the home baker? There you
basically need to just halve or double the recipe.
Thanks for the help.
Russ

PastorDIC wrote:
...>
> Thanks for all the good information. I understand it much better now
> Also, once someone said it was Baker's Percentages, then I had
> something I could look up for even more information.
>
> I am confused about one thing. What good is baker's percentages unless
> you are making a large volume of bread? If you are already weighing
> things out and measuring in grams/kilograms, then even a math idiot
> wanabe like myself could figure out how to multiply a recipe or cut it
> in half easily even without the percentages. I could see it in
> comercial proportions, but what about the home baker? There you
> basically need to just halve or double the recipe.
> Thanks for the help.
> Russ

Yeah, you've got a point, but it's more to do with understanding the
process, understanding why one dough is good for ciabatta and one good
for say bagels. It also means you can easily make a bagel recipe if you
were staying over at a friends or something like that. It sets you free
from slavishly following other peoples recipes. 55 - 85% and 2 for salt
is so easy to remember. Don't ask me to give you a ciabatta recipe of
the top of my head like that.

But horse for courses. Not everyone wants the same thing out of baking.
But I figure since you're putting up with what you have to put up with
here. You must want something similar to us.

Jim

PastorDIC wrote:

>
> I am confused about one thing. What good is baker's percentages unless
> you are making a large volume of bread? If you are already weighing
> things out and measuring in grams/kilograms, then even a math idiot
> wanabe like myself could figure out how to multiply a recipe or cut it
> in half easily even without the percentages. I could see it in
> comercial proportions, but what about the home baker? There you
> basically need to just halve or double the recipe.
> Thanks for the help.
> Russ

The importance of bakers percent calcuilation is that you can easily
remember any formulation in terms of ratios and you can easily scale up
or scale down or conversely.
You don't need to tote a recipe book when ever you want to bake
something as the appropriate ratios is already in your mind.
Why would you keep in mind that you need 5 cups of such ingredient for
a particular recipe when appropriate ratios can be derived from by
first converting it to weights and then to bakers percent.
it and you can use it as a factor to calculate a new recipe.
Bakers don't need to memorise different measurements for the same
recipe but have the knowledge of the certain ratios for a particular
recipe . Much more, don't have to remember every recipe on the book
according to the given quantities of each ingredient.

Think about it. Convert 500 kilograms industrial scale to 800 grams for
home scale; or conversely.

Besides you will get the same results regardless if you make a bakery
batch in small or large scale quantities.
I sometimes bring my work home and sort some technical issues....
I can test my institutional recipe at the comfort of my home using
that kind conversion. or convert my home recipe to institutional scale
so easily.
I can even use it to troubleshoot suspicious products that does that
deviates from quality standards. etc.
For most people
Convenience and simplicity is the keyword for bakers percentages
calculation.

On Jan 17, 2:15 pm, Mike Avery > wrote:
>Bakers percentages are often easier to read. If you want to know HOW wet your
> dough is, which gives you a better handle on it..
>
> Ingredient Baker's Percent Grams
> Flour 100 480
> Water 65 310
> Salt 2 9.6
> Yeast 1.5 7.2
>
> Similarly, most bakers tell you that salt should normally be about 2%.
> How do you know if you don't use bakers percentage as a starting point?
>
> Like everything else, its optional. To make bread all you really need
> is some sort of flour, more or less pure water, and a hot rock.

Ah, but if it will help me understand the recipes (including how to
create my own with fewer tries, then I want to know about it!
Russ

PastorDIC wrote:
> I am confused about one thing. What good is baker's percentages unless
> you are making a large volume of bread?
It all depends on who you are talking to. It is the common language of
most serious bakers and all professional bakers in the USA. Bakers
percentages are often easier to read. If you want to know HOW wet your
dough is, which gives you a better handle on it..

Ingredient Baker's Percent Grams
Flour 100 480
Water 65 310
Salt 2 9.6
Yeast 1.5 7.2

Similarly, most bakers tell you that salt should normally be about 2%.
How do you know if you don't use bakers percentage as a starting point?

Like everything else, its optional. To make bread all you really need
is some sort of flour, more or less pure water, and a hot rock.

Mike

--
....The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world...

Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Mike Avery wrote:

> Like everything else, its optional. To make bread all you really need
> is some sort of flour, more or less pure water, and a hot rock.

There was this limited series (9 episodes to conclusion) on Japanese TV
in the early '90s call The Phantom Chef. About this guy that would be
able to cook anything anywhere under the most "interesting"
circumstances. First episode had him cooking for a banquet when the
kitchen staff had gone on strike and turned off the gas. He took chairs
from the dining room, broke them up and used them for wood in the
garbage containers... went out to the alley and stole some hubcaps off
the parked cars, heated them in the fire (heated rocks too, to drop into
stockpots of water to heat for soup), and then used the concave parts as
ovens. And he did this in something like 1/8 time so you could follow
the process.

B/

PastorDIC wrote:
....
> > Like everything else, its optional. To make bread all you really need
> > is some sort of flour, more or less pure water, and a hot rock.
>
> Ah, but if it will help me understand the recipes (including how to
> create my own with fewer tries, then I want to know about it!
> Russ

Russ, are you my brother? Ahbut is his middle name and Contradiction
his last. You have a lot in common. You don't even read your own posts.
lol. God love you.

Jim

In article . com>,
"PastorDIC" > wrote:

> I am confused about one thing. What good is baker's percentages unless
> you are making a large volume of bread?
> Russ


One thing not touched on is it helps you understand what the character
of the dough. The hydration when expressed in bakers percent has a huge
impact on the character of the dough. For example a stiff dough for a
bagel might be 55% water while a ciabatta might be 110%. Other doughs
will be in between. So just looking at the formula you have a good idea
what the character of the dough and finished bread might be like.

Secondly by knowing the flour you are working with (gluten amount) and
type of bread you want you know what kind of hydration level you should
shoot for to achieve a certain end. For example if your recipe uses
bread flour and calls for 63% hydration and all you have is all purpose
flour, you know you should adjust the hydration down to 61% for a near
equivalent result because the higher gluten in the bread flour would
normally be absorbing more water and hence the need for a slightly lower
hydration with all purpose flour. These adjustments are much easier to
convey precisely in bakers percents than volume measures.

Roland S