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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?

For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.

I wonder why the variety of fast food places is so much better in the
west coast than east coast? Do any of you have any ideas?
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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 07:28:42 -0500, Shawn Hirn > wrote:
>Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
>least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
>restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?


>For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
>places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
>only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
>places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
>Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
>In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
>and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
>west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
>of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.


>I wonder why the variety of fast food places is so much better in the
>west coast than east coast? Do any of you have any ideas?


It is because in the areas where lots of chain restaurants exist,
5-10 years ago they were just undeveloped fields. There are no locally
owned restaurants. If you get out to newly developed areas in the northeast,
such as those that were farmland 5 years ago, you'll find the same
proportion of chain restaurants. And it is not a good thing.
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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

Shawn Hirn wrote:
> Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
> least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
> restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?
>
> For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
> places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
> only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
> places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
> Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
> In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
> and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
> west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
> of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.
>
> I wonder why the variety of fast food places is so much better in the
> west coast than east coast? Do any of you have any ideas?


I'm sure Tim will have lots to say about this, but I'm sure it has to do with
how many wets there are in an area.

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I dont know exactly in the Northeast you live...but where I live everyone is very habitual. If there were a new food chain to come out, I'd doubt they'd go to it anyway.
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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

"Shawn Hirn" > wrote in message
...
> Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
> least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
> restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?
>
> For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
> places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
> only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
> places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
> Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
> In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
> and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
> west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
> of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.


Visit Texas sometime. You'll be blown away by all the fast food places
there.




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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

Shawn Hirn wrote:
> Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
> least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
> restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?
>
> For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
> places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
> only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
> places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
> Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
> In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
> and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
> west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
> of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.
>
> I wonder why the variety of fast food places is so much better in the
> west coast than east coast? Do any of you have any ideas?


Good reasons suggested so far. I've also heard that many of them
started out there, though I haven't looked up the data myself. You're
right though about the limited selection in the NJ-PA area. It's tough
reading all these discussions (in aff-f) about Del Taco, JitB, etc. with
no frame of reference.

There are plenty of local burger places in my area (Newark/Elizabeth)
where you can get a quick, inexpensive fried and flattened burger to go,
at prices that compete with the major chains. From my experience you
can find some pretty awesome, cheap Mexican takeout in New Brunswick
where there's a large Hispanic population, once you get away from the
college neighborhoods. Once, while driving through PA, I stopped
somewhere near Bethlehem and saw what appeared to be a hot dog and
donuts restaurant. And they had a drive-thru, which according to the
Dialogues of Saukretes makes it a certified fast food establishment.
So, I tend to believe we have a nice variety of fast food in this
region, but you have to go digging around for it.

--
Albert Worschey
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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

In article >, Albert
Worschey > wrote:

> Good reasons suggested so far. I've also heard that many of them
> started out there, though I haven't looked up the data myself. You're
> right though about the limited selection in the NJ-PA area. It's tough
> reading all these discussions (in aff-f) about Del Taco, JitB, etc. with
> no frame of reference.


To the list of good reasons submitted so far, I would add two others:

1. Economy in decline in the Northeast. Fast food franchises have
tended to expand rapidly in booming areas, not declining refinery or
steel towns.

2. The toll road system. It's been awhile since I was in a car in
Penn/NJ/NY, but my recollection was of a lot of toll roads, with
limited access points.

Fast food places grow like mushrooms at the onramps and offramps and
cloverleafs of our freeway system. In-N-Out, for example, almost always
tries to find a location where there large yellow and red signs are
visible from a mile away and where motorists can decide to exist at the
offramp, grab a burger, and get back on the highway.

This is possible to do on toll roads, but at much higher cost and
hassle. (I suppose the fast food chains could cut deals to locate on
the actual toll road...I recall that this is how Howard Johnson
operated. Makes it hard for newer FF chains to do the same.)

In California, Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Oregon, places I am well
familiar with, there are very few toll roads. (One I know of is in
Southern California, linking San Juan Bautista to Irvine, about a
20-mile private stretch. And, sure enough, limited access points and no
clusters of fast food chains and gas stations at the access points.)

In Florida, there are both freeways ("free") and toll roads. On one
long toll road from Fort Lauderdale down to the tip, we passed no fast
food places at all. On the neighboring highway, hundreds of them.


I don't think this is the primary reason for fewer FF places, just
something to add to the list.


--Tim May
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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

Tim May wrote:
> In article >, Albert
> Worschey > wrote:
>
>> Good reasons suggested so far. I've also heard that many of them
>> started out there, though I haven't looked up the data myself. You're
>> right though about the limited selection in the NJ-PA area. It's tough
>> reading all these discussions (in aff-f) about Del Taco, JitB, etc. with
>> no frame of reference.

>
> To the list of good reasons submitted so far, I would add two others:
>
> 1. Economy in decline in the Northeast. Fast food franchises have
> tended to expand rapidly in booming areas, not declining refinery or
> steel towns.
>
> 2. The toll road system. It's been awhile since I was in a car in
> Penn/NJ/NY, but my recollection was of a lot of toll roads, with
> limited access points.
>
> Fast food places grow like mushrooms at the onramps and offramps and
> cloverleafs of our freeway system. In-N-Out, for example, almost always
> tries to find a location where there large yellow and red signs are
> visible from a mile away and where motorists can decide to exist at the
> offramp, grab a burger, and get back on the highway.


What if they decide not to exist?

>
> This is possible to do on toll roads, but at much higher cost and
> hassle. (I suppose the fast food chains could cut deals to locate on
> the actual toll road...I recall that this is how Howard Johnson
> operated. Makes it hard for newer FF chains to do the same.)
>
> In California, Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Oregon, places I am well
> familiar with, there are very few toll roads. (One I know of is in
> Southern California, linking San Juan Bautista to Irvine, about a
> 20-mile private stretch. And, sure enough, limited access points and no
> clusters of fast food chains and gas stations at the access points.)
>
> In Florida, there are both freeways ("free") and toll roads. On one
> long toll road from Fort Lauderdale down to the tip, we passed no fast
> food places at all. On the neighboring highway, hundreds of them.
>


There's fast-food every 40 miles, or so, on the FL Turnpike and the
access is much easier than exiting off of I95 or I75.

>
> I don't think this is the primary reason for fewer FF places, just
> something to add to the list.
>
>
> --Tim May

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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

Dan wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
>> In article >, Albert
>> Worschey > wrote:
>>
>>> Good reasons suggested so far. I've also heard that many of them
>>> started out there, though I haven't looked up the data myself.
>>> You're right though about the limited selection in the NJ-PA area.
>>> It's tough reading all these discussions (in aff-f) about Del Taco,
>>> JitB, etc. with no frame of reference.

>>
>> To the list of good reasons submitted so far, I would add two others:
>>
>> 1. Economy in decline in the Northeast. Fast food franchises have
>> tended to expand rapidly in booming areas, not declining refinery or
>> steel towns.
>> 2. The toll road system. It's been awhile since I was in a car in
>> Penn/NJ/NY, but my recollection was of a lot of toll roads, with
>> limited access points.
>>
>> Fast food places grow like mushrooms at the onramps and offramps and
>> cloverleafs of our freeway system. In-N-Out, for example, almost always
>> tries to find a location where there large yellow and red signs are
>> visible from a mile away and where motorists can decide to exist at the
>> offramp, grab a burger, and get back on the highway.

>
> What if they decide not to exist?


They can exist into the trees along the highway.
>>
>> This is possible to do on toll roads, but at much higher cost and
>> hassle. (I suppose the fast food chains could cut deals to locate on
>> the actual toll road...I recall that this is how Howard Johnson
>> operated. Makes it hard for newer FF chains to do the same.)
>>
>> In California, Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Oregon, places I am well
>> familiar with, there are very few toll roads. (One I know of is in
>> Southern California, linking San Juan Bautista to Irvine, about a
>> 20-mile private stretch. And, sure enough, limited access points and no
>> clusters of fast food chains and gas stations at the access points.)
>>
>> In Florida, there are both freeways ("free") and toll roads. On one
>> long toll road from Fort Lauderdale down to the tip, we passed no fast
>> food places at all. On the neighboring highway, hundreds of them.
>>

>
> There's fast-food every 40 miles, or so, on the FL Turnpike and the
> access is much easier than exiting off of I95 or I75.
>


This is also true of the toll roads in NJ and the PA turnpike. Every
40-50 miles or so there's a service area along the road (usually one in
each direction or on median between them) that invariably has a contract
with one or more fast food outlets. But Tim makes a good observation
regarding non-tolled highways. Routes 1 and 22, just to name two here,
are untolled smorgssbords in every direction. But as for fast food,
it's mostly the same three major chains Shawn mentioned repeating
themselves every few miles, with an Arby's here and there and maybe a
couple Checkers drive-thrus.



--
Albert Worschey
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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

On Jan 9, 8:15 am, Golden California Girls >
wrote:
> Shawn Hirn wrote:
> > Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
> > least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
> > restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?

>
> > For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
> > places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
> > only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
> > places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
> > Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
> > In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
> > and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
> > west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
> > of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.

>
> > I wonder why the variety of fast food places is so much better in the
> > west coast than east coast? Do any of you have any ideas?

>
> I'm sure Tim will have lots to say about this, but I'm sure it has to do with
> how many wets there are in an area.


The variety of fast food burger places in the bay area is not amazing.
I've never seen a Sonic, a Whataburger, or a Fat Burger here. In-n-Out
took a half-century to move north. And Carl's Jr. owns Hardee's.
Further, we have no White Castles, and even Dairy Queens are few and
far between.

The part of the west that we live in is not blessed with fast food
chains in general. Fried chicken joints are in short supply; hating
KFC I would drive to East SJ to get Church's. Luckily now there are a
few PopeYes outposts. Sometimes nothing satisfies like deep fried
food: Where are the Long John Silvers, the Arthur Treachers? The lone
Dunkin' Donuts went out of business.


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On Jan 9, 5:59*pm, wrote:
>
> The variety of fast food burger places in the bay area is not amazing.
> I've never seen a Sonic, a Whataburger, or a Fat Burger here. In-n-Out
> took a half-century to move north. And Carl's Jr. owns Hardee's.
> Further, we have no White Castles, and even Dairy Queens are few and
> far between.
>
> The part of the west that we live in is not blessed with fast food
> chains in general. Fried chicken joints are in short supply; hating
> KFC I would drive to East SJ to get Church's. Luckily now there are a
> few PopeYes outposts. Sometimes nothing satisfies like deep fried
> food: Where are the Long John Silvers, the Arthur Treachers? *The lone
> Dunkin' Donuts went out of business.


I enjoyed deep fried oysters today for lunch at Cook's in Menlo Park.
Also, had a mini crab louie. Not cheap, though... $15.

Karen
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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

In article >,
Albert Worschey > wrote:

> Shawn Hirn wrote:
> > Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
> > least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
> > restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?
> >
> > For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
> > places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
> > only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
> > places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
> > Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
> > In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
> > and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
> > west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
> > of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.
> >
> > I wonder why the variety of fast food places is so much better in the
> > west coast than east coast? Do any of you have any ideas?

>
> Good reasons suggested so far. I've also heard that many of them
> started out there, though I haven't looked up the data myself. You're
> right though about the limited selection in the NJ-PA area. It's tough
> reading all these discussions (in aff-f) about Del Taco, JitB, etc. with
> no frame of reference.
>
> There are plenty of local burger places in my area (Newark/Elizabeth)
> where you can get a quick, inexpensive fried and flattened burger to go,
> at prices that compete with the major chains. From my experience you
> can find some pretty awesome, cheap Mexican takeout in New Brunswick
> where there's a large Hispanic population, once you get away from the
> college neighborhoods. Once, while driving through PA, I stopped
> somewhere near Bethlehem and saw what appeared to be a hot dog and
> donuts restaurant. And they had a drive-thru, which according to the
> Dialogues of Saukretes makes it a certified fast food establishment.
> So, I tend to believe we have a nice variety of fast food in this
> region, but you have to go digging around for it.


You might be right. We also have great diners, which I don't believe
exist at all in the western states. Some diners have great burgers, but
they are definitely not fast food.
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In article >, Shawn
Hirn > wrote:


>
> You might be right. We also have great diners, which I don't believe
> exist at all in the western states. Some diners have great burgers, but
> they are definitely not fast food.


We have diners. Even a chain version of them called "Margie's Diner,"
seen in many of the same locations In-N-Out is located.

(And such canonical Western places as Denny's, Sambo's, and IHOP all
started in California. They are essentially diners, albeit not in
railroad cars.)

There are also authentic "train car" kinds of diners in several big
cities, including ones in downtown San Francisco. For exactly the same
reason as on the east coast, these tend to be downscale places.

A Santa Rosa restaurant owner even has a show on "Food Network" called
"Diners, Dives, and Drive-Ins," where he visits various places. He
recently visited several diners in California.

And also the Felafel Drive-In in San Jose, a place I started going to
in the 1970s.

BTW, there are also diners out in places like Colorado, Wyoming, Utah,
etc.

Tim May
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On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 13:11:22 -0800, Tim May > wrote:

>1. Economy in decline in the Northeast.


Have you taken a look at the census tables of average income by state?

-- Larry
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Tim May wrote:
> In article >, Shawn
> Hirn > wrote:
>
>
>> You might be right. We also have great diners, which I don't believe
>> exist at all in the western states. Some diners have great burgers, but
>> they are definitely not fast food.

>
> We have diners. Even a chain version of them called "Margie's Diner,"
> seen in many of the same locations In-N-Out is located.
>
> (And such canonical Western places as Denny's, Sambo's, and IHOP all
> started in California. They are essentially diners, albeit not in
> railroad cars.)
>
> There are also authentic "train car" kinds of diners in several big
> cities, including ones in downtown San Francisco. For exactly the same
> reason as on the east coast, these tend to be downscale places.
>


We still have quite a few "railcar" diners around here (most of them
manufactured in Asbury Park, NJ in the mid-20th century), and they're
also typically downscale. But for what they lack in class they make up
for in speed and (usually) taste. There's one about 3 miles from my
home that operates 24 hours and serves a very tasty griddle burger (I'd
estimate it at 3-4 oz) on a fresh hard roll in under 2 minutes for about
$2. They're part of a once prevalent local chain that has been dying
off and mutating since the 1970's. This may have happened elsewhere as
well, but in northern NJ quite a few railcar diners and greasy spoons
seemed to want to cash in on the White Castle craze when it took off.
So we have a lot of one-offs and small chains called "White
Something-or-other", usually tucked away in neighborhoods and away from
major highways. The burgers seem to have an ancestry in the White
Castle formula but now trump WC in taste and value. The White Manna in
Hackensack make sliders worthy of a 50 mile pilgrimage. Of course, it
also helps that White Castle's burgers have gone downhill since their
golden days.


--
Albert Worschey


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On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:06:21 -0500, pltrgyst > wrote:
>On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 13:11:22 -0800, Tim May > wrote:


>>1. Economy in decline in the Northeast.


>Have you taken a look at the census tables of average income by state?


That's a worthless statistic.

Average income and housing costs by city is far more usefull.
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On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:33:00 -0000, AZ Nomad >
wrote:

>>>1. Economy in decline in the Northeast.

>
>>Have you taken a look at the census tables of average income by state?

>
>That's a worthless statistic.
>
>Average income and housing costs by city is far more usefull.


How about counties? Two of the three highest-income counties in the country are
right here around Washington DC, which is in the NE. Other top-tenners are in
Connecticut and NJ. Neither a desert nor a chitlin as far as the eye can see...

-- Larry
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On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:08:56 -0500, pltrgyst > wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:33:00 -0000, AZ Nomad >
>wrote:


>>>>1. Economy in decline in the Northeast.

>>
>>>Have you taken a look at the census tables of average income by state?

>>
>>That's a worthless statistic.
>>
>>Average income and housing costs by city is far more usefull.


>How about counties? Two of the three highest-income counties in the country are
>right here around Washington DC, which is in the NE. Other top-tenners are in
>Connecticut and NJ. Neither a desert nor a chitlin as far as the eye can see...


OK. Now divide by the cost of living. NYC night pay twice as much in my
occupation, but that doesn't do me a whole lot of good if the cost of living
is five times.
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AZ Nomad wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:08:56 -0500, pltrgyst > wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:33:00 -0000, AZ Nomad >
>> wrote:

>
>>>>> 1. Economy in decline in the Northeast.
>>>> Have you taken a look at the census tables of average income by state?
>>> That's a worthless statistic.
>>>
>>> Average income and housing costs by city is far more usefull.

>
>> How about counties? Two of the three highest-income counties in the country are
>> right here around Washington DC, which is in the NE. Other top-tenners are in
>> Connecticut and NJ. Neither a desert nor a chitlin as far as the eye can see...

>
> OK. Now divide by the cost of living. NYC night pay twice as much in my
> occupation, but that doesn't do me a whole lot of good if the cost of living
> is five times.


Or look at it the other way, why would anyone making so much be interested in
the "dollar menu."

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In article >,
"Terri" > wrote:

> "Shawn Hirn" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
> > least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
> > restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?
> >
> > For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
> > places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
> > only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
> > places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
> > Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
> > In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
> > and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
> > west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
> > of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.

>
> Visit Texas sometime. You'll be blown away by all the fast food places
> there.


I was blown away when I was in San Antonio last May, but I found a
greater variety in California and Nevada.


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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

In article
>,
wrote:

>
> The variety of fast food burger places in the bay area is not amazing.
> I've never seen a Sonic, a Whataburger, or a Fat Burger here. In-n-Out
> took a half-century to move north. And Carl's Jr. owns Hardee's.
> Further, we have no White Castles, and even Dairy Queens are few and
> far between.
>
> The part of the west that we live in is not blessed with fast food
> chains in general. Fried chicken joints are in short supply; hating
> KFC I would drive to East SJ to get Church's. Luckily now there are a
> few PopeYes outposts. Sometimes nothing satisfies like deep fried
> food: Where are the Long John Silvers, the Arthur Treachers? The lone
> Dunkin' Donuts went out of business.


Arthur Treachers' parent company is the same as Kenny Rodgers. They're
both owned by Nathans Hotdogs who has a strange business model which
consists of closing branches. They closed down almost all the Kenny
Rodgers Roasters and Arthur Treachers stores and opened up just a few
food court places where you can buy from a very limited menu of each
one. What a shame.

As for SF, its choice of fast food places is limited, but nowhere near
to the Philadelphia area. We don't even have Carls Jr or In-n-Out. I
rarely eat fast food hamburgers, but when I do, I would much prefer
In-N-Out to BK, Wendy's, and McDonalds which are the only choices in my
area for that sort of food.
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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

Shawn Hirn wrote:
> In article
> >,
> wrote:
>
>> The variety of fast food burger places in the bay area is not amazing.
>> I've never seen a Sonic, a Whataburger, or a Fat Burger here. In-n-Out
>> took a half-century to move north. And Carl's Jr. owns Hardee's.
>> Further, we have no White Castles, and even Dairy Queens are few and
>> far between.
>>
>> The part of the west that we live in is not blessed with fast food
>> chains in general. Fried chicken joints are in short supply; hating
>> KFC I would drive to East SJ to get Church's. Luckily now there are a
>> few PopeYes outposts. Sometimes nothing satisfies like deep fried
>> food: Where are the Long John Silvers, the Arthur Treachers? The lone
>> Dunkin' Donuts went out of business.

>
> Arthur Treachers' parent company is the same as Kenny Rodgers. They're
> both owned by Nathans Hotdogs who has a strange business model which
> consists of closing branches. They closed down almost all the Kenny
> Rodgers Roasters and Arthur Treachers stores and opened up just a few
> food court places where you can buy from a very limited menu of each
> one. What a shame.
>
> As for SF, its choice of fast food places is limited, but nowhere near
> to the Philadelphia area. We don't even have Carls Jr or In-n-Out. I
> rarely eat fast food hamburgers, but when I do, I would much prefer
> In-N-Out to BK, Wendy's, and McDonalds which are the only choices in my
> area for that sort of food.


Are you saying there aren't any independent (not chain) fast food (burger)
places out there at all?!! Man that would be a desert.

Oh, and I fully understand not ever wanting to eat a hamburger at BK, Wendy's or
McDonands if there is an In-N-Out anywhere within 100 miles.
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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

In article <2NCdnRThIovurxTanZ2dnUVZ_qelnZ2d@championbroadban d.com>,
Golden California Girls > wrote:

> Shawn Hirn wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > wrote:
> >
> >> The variety of fast food burger places in the bay area is not amazing.
> >> I've never seen a Sonic, a Whataburger, or a Fat Burger here. In-n-Out
> >> took a half-century to move north. And Carl's Jr. owns Hardee's.
> >> Further, we have no White Castles, and even Dairy Queens are few and
> >> far between.
> >>
> >> The part of the west that we live in is not blessed with fast food
> >> chains in general. Fried chicken joints are in short supply; hating
> >> KFC I would drive to East SJ to get Church's. Luckily now there are a
> >> few PopeYes outposts. Sometimes nothing satisfies like deep fried
> >> food: Where are the Long John Silvers, the Arthur Treachers? The lone
> >> Dunkin' Donuts went out of business.

> >
> > Arthur Treachers' parent company is the same as Kenny Rodgers. They're
> > both owned by Nathans Hotdogs who has a strange business model which
> > consists of closing branches. They closed down almost all the Kenny
> > Rodgers Roasters and Arthur Treachers stores and opened up just a few
> > food court places where you can buy from a very limited menu of each
> > one. What a shame.
> >
> > As for SF, its choice of fast food places is limited, but nowhere near
> > to the Philadelphia area. We don't even have Carls Jr or In-n-Out. I
> > rarely eat fast food hamburgers, but when I do, I would much prefer
> > In-N-Out to BK, Wendy's, and McDonalds which are the only choices in my
> > area for that sort of food.

>
> Are you saying there aren't any independent (not chain) fast food (burger)
> places out there at all?!! Man that would be a desert.


There are tons of diners in my area where one can get an excellent
hamburger and fries, but none are fast food places. The only independent
fast food burger joint I can think of in my area is a little shoebox of
a store a couple of miles away, which I haven't tried yet, but should.
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In article >,
pltrgyst > wrote:

> On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 13:11:22 -0800, Tim May >
> wrote:
>
> >1. Economy in decline in the Northeast.

>
> Have you taken a look at the census tables of average income by state?


I don't know about the other states in the Northeast, but NJ where I
live is easily among the top ten in per capita wealth and I am sure New
York is up there too.
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In article >,
AZ Nomad > wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:08:56 -0500, pltrgyst >
> wrote:
> >On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:33:00 -0000, AZ Nomad >
> >wrote:

>
> >>>>1. Economy in decline in the Northeast.
> >>
> >>>Have you taken a look at the census tables of average income by state?
> >>
> >>That's a worthless statistic.
> >>
> >>Average income and housing costs by city is far more usefull.

>
> >How about counties? Two of the three highest-income counties in the country
> >are
> >right here around Washington DC, which is in the NE. Other top-tenners are
> >in
> >Connecticut and NJ. Neither a desert nor a chitlin as far as the eye can
> >see...

>
> OK. Now divide by the cost of living. NYC night pay twice as much in my
> occupation, but that doesn't do me a whole lot of good if the cost of living
> is five times.


And this line of discussion has what to do with the greater variety of
fast food restaurants in the western states, than the northeastern
states?


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In article <XLidnS_aKIlGdxvanZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@championbroadban d.com>,
Golden California Girls > wrote:

> AZ Nomad wrote:
> > On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:08:56 -0500, pltrgyst >
> > wrote:
> >> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:33:00 -0000, AZ Nomad
> >> >
> >> wrote:

> >
> >>>>> 1. Economy in decline in the Northeast.
> >>>> Have you taken a look at the census tables of average income by state?
> >>> That's a worthless statistic.
> >>>
> >>> Average income and housing costs by city is far more usefull.

> >
> >> How about counties? Two of the three highest-income counties in the
> >> country are
> >> right here around Washington DC, which is in the NE. Other top-tenners are
> >> in
> >> Connecticut and NJ. Neither a desert nor a chitlin as far as the eye can
> >> see...

> >
> > OK. Now divide by the cost of living. NYC night pay twice as much in my
> > occupation, but that doesn't do me a whole lot of good if the cost of
> > living
> > is five times.

>
> Or look at it the other way, why would anyone making so much be interested in
> the "dollar menu."


California is no slouch. Its damned hard to find a house for under half
a million in Southern California.
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On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:38:08 -0500, Shawn Hirn > wrote:

>And this line of discussion has what to do with the greater variety of
>fast food restaurants in the western states, than the northeastern
>states?


It's in response to the allegation that the lack in the NE was due to a
declining regional economy.

As you would know if you bothered to use your threaded newsreader before trying
to play net cop and just looking stupid.

-- Larry
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On Sat, 12 Jan 2008, Golden California Girls wrote:

> Oh, and I fully understand not ever wanting to eat a hamburger at BK, Wendy's
> or McDonands if there is an In-N-Out anywhere within 100 miles.


You must own stock!

But in any case, In-N-Out doesn't satisfy the original criteria, since
it's not a fast food place. Typical time delay is similar to that of
good non-chain burger places (unless one goes at very-off hours).
--

Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA
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Al Eisner > wrote:

>But in any case, In-N-Out doesn't satisfy the original criteria, since
>it's not a fast food place. Typical time delay is similar to that of
>good non-chain burger places (unless one goes at very-off hours).


You and I have different definitions of fast food. In-N-out,
Val's, Nation's, all count as fast food. Anyplace that you pay first,
that produces your food within 15 minutes, and from which you normally
leave right after eating is fast food.

Chain vs. non-chain doesn't enter into the definition for me.

Steve
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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

In article
anford.edu>,
Al Eisner > wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Jan 2008, Golden California Girls wrote:
>
> > Oh, and I fully understand not ever wanting to eat a hamburger at BK,
> > Wendy's
> > or McDonands if there is an In-N-Out anywhere within 100 miles.

>
> You must own stock!
>
> But in any case, In-N-Out doesn't satisfy the original criteria, since
> it's not a fast food place. Typical time delay is similar to that of
> good non-chain burger places (unless one goes at very-off hours).


In my experience, the only reason In-N-Out isn't fast is because of the
long lines and their policy of making their burgers to order. I still
consider it a ff place though.


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In article >, Shawn
Hirn > wrote:

> In article
> anford.edu>,
> Al Eisner > wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 12 Jan 2008, Golden California Girls wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, and I fully understand not ever wanting to eat a hamburger at BK,
> > > Wendy's
> > > or McDonands if there is an In-N-Out anywhere within 100 miles.

> >
> > You must own stock!
> >
> > But in any case, In-N-Out doesn't satisfy the original criteria, since
> > it's not a fast food place. Typical time delay is similar to that of
> > good non-chain burger places (unless one goes at very-off hours).

>
> In my experience, the only reason In-N-Out isn't fast is because of the
> long lines and their policy of making their burgers to order. I still
> consider it a ff place though.


I've waited just as long at Burger King as at In-N-Out. Not
consistently, but sometimes.

By contrast, some sit-down Chinese places are able to deliver a
wok-cooked Chinese meal in less time than I have waited at either of
these burger places. (Having cooked on a wok, I know why...)

And Subway often can turn out a fresh sandwich in basically as short a
time as it takes me to move from one end of the line to the cash
register. A couple of minutes.

Still, the term "fast food" has a widely accepted meaning. So I use the
phrase as it is accepted.

--Tim May
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In article >,
Shawn Hirn > wrote:

> In article
> anford.edu>,
> Al Eisner > wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 12 Jan 2008, Golden California Girls wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, and I fully understand not ever wanting to eat a hamburger at BK,
> > > Wendy's
> > > or McDonands if there is an In-N-Out anywhere within 100 miles.

> >
> > You must own stock!
> >
> > But in any case, In-N-Out doesn't satisfy the original criteria, since
> > it's not a fast food place. Typical time delay is similar to that of
> > good non-chain burger places (unless one goes at very-off hours).

>
> In my experience, the only reason In-N-Out isn't fast is because of the
> long lines and their policy of making their burgers to order. I still
> consider it a ff place though.


A "fast food restaurant" is any that is focused primarily on take-out or
self-service (i.e., not waited table service). Order at a counter, pick
up the food and deliver it yourself or carry out.

Places like "The Counter" are in-between; the food quality is usually
higher than most fast food restaurants, and the service is usually
waited table, but the food is mostly the style of that found in fast
food restaurants (burgers and fried snacks).

Steve

--
steve <at> w0x0f <dot> com
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, chip shot in the other, body thoroughly
used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

Al Eisner wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jan 2008, Golden California Girls wrote:
>
>> Oh, and I fully understand not ever wanting to eat a hamburger at BK,
>> Wendy's or McDonands if there is an In-N-Out anywhere within 100 miles.

>
>
> You must own stock!
>
> But in any case, In-N-Out doesn't satisfy the original criteria, since
> it's not a fast food place. Typical time delay is similar to that of
> good non-chain burger places (unless one goes at very-off hours).


Not really, unless you're talking about drive thru.

At the In-N-Out in Milpitas, which is completely packed
24/7, you can walk in, get in one of the three lines,
and have your order taken within 5 minutes. They can
usually produce your order within another 5 to 10 minutes,
which is fine with me, given that it is cooked to order.

The only way you get served quicker at your other fast-food
burger joints is by ordering something that is likely to be
sitting ready to distribute from the burger bins.

When I order a McDonalds hamburger with only lettuce
and tomato and well-done, it gets made fresh and
takes about 10 minutes. They won't give me a premade
burger because they know that they are all are medium-well,
and would most-likely be returned. This gives me a
non-e-coli infested fresh burger that I can rely upon.
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Al Eisner wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jan 2008, Golden California Girls wrote:
>
>> Oh, and I fully understand not ever wanting to eat a hamburger at BK,
>> Wendy's or McDonands if there is an In-N-Out anywhere within 100 miles.

>
> You must own stock!
>
> But in any case, In-N-Out doesn't satisfy the original criteria, since
> it's not a fast food place. Typical time delay is similar to that of
> good non-chain burger places (unless one goes at very-off hours).


So (for you) fast food is only possible if it is cook before order?

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Al Eisner wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jan 2008, Golden California Girls wrote:
>
>> Oh, and I fully understand not ever wanting to eat a hamburger at BK,
>> Wendy's or McDonands if there is an In-N-Out anywhere within 100 miles.

>
> You must own stock!


Then you would know who I am, it is privately owned and I'm not a member of that
family.

> But in any case, In-N-Out doesn't satisfy the original criteria, since
> it's not a fast food place. Typical time delay is similar to that of
> good non-chain burger places (unless one goes at very-off hours).



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Steve Pope wrote:
> Al Eisner > wrote:
>
>> But in any case, In-N-Out doesn't satisfy the original criteria, since
>> it's not a fast food place. Typical time delay is similar to that of
>> good non-chain burger places (unless one goes at very-off hours).

>
> You and I have different definitions of fast food. In-N-out,
> Val's, Nation's, all count as fast food. Anyplace that you pay first,
> that produces your food within 15 minutes, and from which you normally
> leave right after eating is fast food.
>
> Chain vs. non-chain doesn't enter into the definition for me.


Sizzler salad bar fits in there where?
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Default Why so few ff places in the northeast?

Golden California Girls > wrote:

>Steve Pope wrote:


>> You and I have different definitions of fast food. In-N-out,
>> Val's, Nation's, all count as fast food. Anyplace that you pay first,
>> that produces your food within 15 minutes, and from which you normally
>> leave right after eating is fast food.


>> Chain vs. non-chain doesn't enter into the definition for me.


>Sizzler salad bar fits in there where?


Haven't been in one for years but they have table service true?
(e.g., for beverages even if you get the salad bar)?

And you could linger around for a beer or three if you liked?

That makes it non-fast-food, in my book.

Steve
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Al Eisner > writes:

> But in any case, In-N-Out doesn't satisfy the original criteria,
> since it's not a fast food place. Typical time delay is similar
> to that of good non-chain burger places (unless one goes at very-
> off hours).



Its being busy makes in not be a fast-food place? Interesting
reasoning...



Geoff

--
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of a 4-seater convertible was Adolf Hitler.
-- Jeremy Clarkson

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RWW > writes:

> When I order a McDonalds hamburger with only lettuce
> and tomato and well-done,


A troublemaker, huh?


> it gets made fresh and takes about 10 minutes.


*Ten minutes* to make a McDonalds hamburger? That's crazy.
I suspect they're just trying to discourage you from making
special orders by making you wait.



Geoff

--
"The only person to ever look good in the back
of a 4-seater convertible was Adolf Hitler.
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Geoff Miller > wrote:

>*Ten minutes* to make a McDonalds hamburger? That's crazy.
>I suspect they're just trying to discourage you from making
>special orders by making you wait.


Probably it's less than 10 minutes. Unless the customer gets
out a watch and times such intervals, their estimates are
usually off.

Steve
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