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  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 08-02-2007, 08:12 PM posted to alt.religion.the-last-church,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.restaurants
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"Pete (..)" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:09:59 GMT, "ontheroad" wrote:


"Pete (..)" wrote in ...

snippage...



We simply do not NEED to eat meat. That's a fact.


We don't "need" veggies either.


Yes we do, to live.


There are NO plant sources of b12. You could just eat your s**t and not
wash your veggies then yes, you would not 'need' meat.


Her you go old chum.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

...
Introduction
Vitamin B12 is a member of the vitamin B complex. It contains cobalt,


It is the cobalt that can be lacking. Livestock are
supplemented with cobalt or Vitamin B12 directly.

See: The B12-Cobalt Connection
http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/b12coblt.htm

'The Bacterial Flora of Humans
...
'(8) While E. coli is a consistent resident of the small intestine,
many other enteric bacteria may reside here as well, including
Klebsiella, Enterobacter and Citrobacter.

1. The normal flora synthesize and excrete vitamins in excess of
their own needs, which can be absorbed as nutrients by the host.
For example, enteric bacteria secrete Vitamin K and Vitamin B12,
and lactic acid bacteria produce certain B-vitamins.
... '
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/normalflora.html

* emphasis added:

'Suzuki1 (1995, Japan) studied 6 vegan children eating a
genmai-saishoku (GS) diet, which is based on high intakes of
brown rice and contains plenty of sea vegetables, including
2-4 g of nori per day ("dried laver"); as well as hijiki, wakame,
and kombu. The foods are *organically grown* and many are
*high in cobalt* (buckwheat, adzuki beans, kidney beans,
shiitake, hijiki). Serum B12 levels of the children are shown:

Results of Suzuki.1
age(yrs) years vegan sB12
7.1 4.4 520
7.7 4.4 720
8.6A 8.6 480
8.8A 8.8 300
12.7 10 320
14.6 10 320
average 443 ( 164)
A - Exclusively breast-fed until 6 months old.
Mothers had been vegan for 9.6 and 6.5 yrs
prior to conception. Both mothers consumed
2 g of nori per day.
...'
http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/plant

Eating meat does _not_ guarantee adequate B12 levels..

'Are You Vitamin B12 Deficient?

Nearly two-fifths of the U.S. population may be flirting with
marginal vitamin B12 status-that is, if a careful look at nearly 3,000
men and women in the ongoing Framingham (Massachusetts)
Offspring Study is any indication. Researchers found that 39 percent
of the volunteers have plasma B12 levels in the "low normal" range-
below 258 picomoles per liter (pmol/L).

While this is well above the currently accepted deficiency level
of 148 pmol/L, some people exhibit neurological symptoms at the
upper level of the deficiency range, explains study leader Katherine
L. Tucker. She is a nutritional epidemiologist at the Jean Mayer
USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts
University in Boston.

"I think there's a lot of undetected vitamin B12 deficiency out there,"
says Tucker. She noted that nearly 9 percent of the study population
fell below the current deficiency level. And more than 16 percent fell
below 185 pmol/L. "Many people may be deficient at this level,"
she says. "There is some question as to what the clinical cutoff for
deficiency should be."

Deficiency can cause a type of anemia marked by fewer but larger
red blood cells. It can also cause walking and balance disturbances,
a loss of vibration sensation, confusion, and, in advanced cases,
dementia. The body requires B12 to make the protective coating
surrounding the nerves. So inadequate B12 can expose nerves to
damage.

Tucker and colleagues wanted to get a sense of B12 levels spanning
the adult population because most previous studies have focused on the
elderly. That age group was thought to be at higher risk for deficiency.
The researchers also expected to find some connection between dietary
intake and plasma levels, even though other studies found no association.
Some of the results were surprising. The youngest group-the 26 to 49
year olds-had about the same B12 status as the oldest group-65 and up.
"We thought that low concentrations of B12 would increase with age,"
says Tucker. "But we saw a high prevalence of low B12 even among
the youngest group."

The good news is that for many people, eating more fortified cereals
and dairy products can improve B12 status almost as much as taking
supplements containing the vitamin. Supplement use dropped the
percentage of volunteers in the danger zone (plasma B12 below 185
pmol/L) from 20 percent to 8. Eating fortified cereals five or more
times a week or being among the highest third for dairy intake reduced,
by nearly half, the percentage of volunteers in that zone-from 23 and
24 percent, respectively, to 12 and 13 percent.

The researchers found no association between plasma B12 and meat,
poultry, and fish intake, even though these foods supply the bulk of B12
in the diet. "It's not because people aren't eating enough meat," Tucker
says. "The vitamin isn't getting absorbed." The vitamin is tightly bound
to proteins in meat and dairy products and requires high acidity to cut
it loose. As we age, we lose the acid-secreting cells in the stomach. But
what causes poor absorption in younger adults? Tucker speculates that
the high use of antacids may contribute. But why absorption from dairy
products appears to be better than from meats is a question that needs
more research. Fortified cereals are a different story. She says the
vitamin is sprayed on during processing and is "more like what we get
in supplements."

-By Judy McBride, Agricultural Research Service Information Staff.
This research is part of Human Nutrition, an ARS National Program
(#107) described on the World Wide Web. Katherine L. Tucker is
at the Jean Mayer USDA-ARS Human Nutrition Research Center on
Aging at Tufts University, 711 Washington St., Boston, MA 02111;
...
"Are You Vitamin B12 Deficient?" was published in the August 2000
issue of Agricultural Research magazine.

http://www.epic4health.com/areyouvitb12.html



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Old 08-02-2007, 09:29 PM posted to alt.religion.the-last-church,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.restaurants
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"Pete (..)" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 19:36:05 GMT, "Dutch" wrote:


"Pete (..)" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:51:58 GMT, "Dutch" wrote:


"Pete (..)" wrote in message
m...
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:45:57 GMT, "Dutch" wrote:

"Pete (..)" wrote

There are good arguments for eating less meat and only eating less
intensively raised meat but there are not good practical health,
economic or environmental reasons to stop eating all meat all
together.

We simply do not NEED to eat meat. That's a fact.

That is a misleading statement disguised as a fact. There are no
needs,
only
wants.

It's a fact, we don't need meat.

We don't need anything per se,

Yes we do.


No, we don't.


Oh yes we do.......


No, we don't.

We need food to survive,


We don't need to survive, we WANT to survive.


We need to survive. You're an idiot.


We don't need to survive, our survival is utterly unimportant in the scheme
of things, it is a personal desire. In fact if you really wanted to help the
planet you would kill yourself now.

Need is a weasel word used by
people attempting to impose an agenda on others.


Caring is not an agenda.


Caring is a character flaw when you twist it to attack others with empty
rhetoric.

that food doesn't NEED to be meat.


It doesn't NEED to be anything in particular, meat just happens to be a
food
category you dislike.


Eating meat means destroying animals and the planet wilfully,
forcefully taking the life of another sentient being. We don't need to
do that.


Yes we do, all agriculture involves willfully destroying animals and
damaging the soil (earth). I grow wheat, an activity that places tremendous
strain on the earth and causes untold animal death. I hope you enjoy the
bread I produce, something incidentally, that you don't NEED.

You can live on a wholly veggie diet, you cannot live on meat alone.


That's irrelevant, and false.


You're an idiot.


Yet you're the one resorting to cheap insults.

the word need is strictly conditional.

Keep wriggling.


You are misappropriating your personal DESIRE to have us all live a
particular way into a meaningless statement about "need". We don't NEED
to
do thousands of things we do, that does not mean we shouldn't do them.


You want to self harm, fine, go jump in a lake. Don't drag us down
with you.


That's a non-sequitur, your statements about "need" have been revealed as
empty rhetoric. Deal with that.

The only reason to give up meat all together is to feel smug and
superior, a feeling that can only be maintained if "the great fight"
is
never actually won. That is why vegetarians come up with such lame
ideas
trying to persuade other people to make the same decision they did
but
for different reasons.

What an idiotic idea. Since when has looking after ourselves, and
the
planet been some warped ego trip?

Man has always gone on warped ego trips, it's his nature.

Strange world you live in then, when caring is an ego trip!

Vegans bend caring into a character flaw.

We still know caring is good. You're the warped kind who think its a
crime! Guilt does funny things to people I guess.


You're projecting. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they bang on people's
doors and pester them about The Truth because they "care". The *real*
"truth" is that like you they need to pester people to convince themselves
that they care, and they need to convert others in order to keep
convincing
themselves that they're not misguided. Nobody thinks caring is bad,
deciding
that you have a unique insight on THE TRUTH is arrogant and boring.


You're an idiot.


Another pearl of wisdom from the purveyor of TRUTH.

If your weird needs inflict harm on the rest of the worlds
inhabitants, it's our business.


Fulfilling my desires causes harm, as does fulfilling yours. Stop making it
into a shabby game.

Really weird thoughts you're having.

They only sound weird to you because you're on a warped ego trip.

You cant seem to get round your head, some things in life are free.

You can't seem to get it through your head, everything free is not good.

The best things in life are. Try enjoying it for a change.


Some of the worst things in life are free, like warped ego trips.


True


So do yourself a favour and stop it.



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Old 08-02-2007, 09:31 PM posted to alt.religion.the-last-church,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.restaurants
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"Pete (..)" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 19:46:02 GMT, "Dutch" wrote:

"Pete (..)" wrote
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:47:48 +0000, Martin Willett
wrote:


[..]

The starving are not starving
because people eat meat but because they haven't got any money, they
will be just as poor if nobody eats meat.

Not if we care enough to go veggie. There will be more than enough
food to share, if we care enough to share. If you don't care now,
you'll never care. That's not our fault.


That is just vegan rhetoric.There's more than enough food for the world
now,
the problem of hunger is not the result of a lack of food, it's a result
of
of economic, political, logistic, and climatic factors, not due to a
worldwide food shortage. If everyone truly "cared" the problem could be
solved today.


Yes. Go veggie.


Are you completely brain-dead? Going Veggie would do as much for world
hunger as everyone becoming Muslim.


  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 08-02-2007, 09:47 PM posted to alt.religion.the-last-church,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.restaurants
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"Dutch" wrote in message news:[email protected]

"Pete (..)" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 19:46:02 GMT, "Dutch" wrote:

"Pete (..)" wrote
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:47:48 +0000, Martin Willett
wrote:

[..]

The starving are not starving
because people eat meat but because they haven't got any money, they
will be just as poor if nobody eats meat.

Not if we care enough to go veggie. There will be more than enough
food to share, if we care enough to share. If you don't care now,
you'll never care. That's not our fault.

That is just vegan rhetoric.There's more than enough food for the world
now,
the problem of hunger is not the result of a lack of food, it's a result
of
of economic, political, logistic, and climatic factors, not due to a
worldwide food shortage. If everyone truly "cared" the problem could be
solved today.


Yes. Go veggie.


Are you completely brain-dead? Going Veggie would do as much for world
hunger as everyone becoming Muslim.


From Technological Trajectories and the Human Environment.
1997. Pp. 56-73. Washington, DC: National Academy Press
"How Much Land Can Ten Billion People Spare for Nature?"...

'By eating different species of crops and a more or less vegetarian
diet people can change the number that a plot can feed. And large
numbers of people do change their diets. The calories and protein
available from present cropland could provide a vegetarian diet to
ten billion people. A diet requiring food and feed totaling 6,000
calories daily for ten billion people, however, would overwhelm
the capability of present agriculture on present cropland. The
global totals of sun, CO2, fertilizer, and even water could produce
far more food than what ten billion people need.
...'
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?re...d=4767&page=56

'Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth's entire land surface,
mostly permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the
global arable land used to producing feed for livestock, the report
notes. As forests are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major
driver of deforestation, especially in Latin America where, for
example, some 70 percent of former forests in the Amazon have
been turned over to grazing.
.....'
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/...448/index.html

"The global food supply is near the breaking point. The world is
now eating more food than farmers grow, pushing global grain
stocks to their lowest level in 30 years. Oceans are overfished.
Hunger is already a stark and painful reality for more than 850
million people, including 300 million children. In a world of
starvation, the rich are starting to drive themselves around
powered by food (biofuels) that could have gone to the poor."

'On an Environmentally Collapsing, Poverty Racked Planet, the
Disease that is Economic Growth

Glen Barry, PhD
February 8, 2007

Environmental sustainability and abject poverty are the issues
of our and all time, the resolution of which will either save
the Earth and relatively civilized society, or continued neglect
lead to global ecological and social collapse. The big lies
underlying ecological crises and wealth inequities are that
economic growth will solve these problems, is endless, and is
always desirable. Corporation's and government's emphasis upon
exponential economic growth in a finite biosphere is the disease
destroying the Earth.

In a growth driven capitalist market economy, there can never be
such a thing as "Sustainable Growth". It is time to dust off the
Club of Rome's findings in the 1970s, and acknowledge that
limits to growth have been put off by technology, not
eliminated. How can we speak of sustainable growth when the
economic system is not even sustaining large portions of the
world's population that now lives in utterly miserable poverty?

We are well into the disintegration of the biosphere and human
habitat as a result of policies promoting unfettered economic
growth at the exclusion of virtually all other values.

How grotesque that some shall live the life of opulent splendor
gluttonously consuming while most wither in abject hunger and
despair. I am stunned at humanity's - and particularly the rich,
powerful and celebrity types' - inability to see the big
picture. Nearly half of the world is living in grinding poverty
polluting little while about 20% consume exorbitantly destroying
the Planet's biosphere. It is like a disturbing Alice in
wonderland world - Africa starves, suffers wars, murder and
rape; while we in the North overfeed and entertain ourselves
while shitting our pollution on the poor.

Global inequities are obscene. How much longer will the have-
nots sit passively by watching the good life of democratic
consumption from which they are excluded? Why can't anyone tell
the Americans and Europeans they must have less? The greatest
threat to the American way of life is that it is not able to be
universalized. Rich North and poor South conflict is inevitable.

Have you ever spent time with a family living on $1 a day? About
a billion people find themselves in this situation. Where
subsistence is still possible people are fed and housed, but
there is no room for error. Finding potable water and firewood
are a constant struggle. No fancy health care, leisure, travel
or electronic toys. Just a grinding struggle to survive as the
population grows and the environment continues to deteriorate.
Soon this will be the human norm.

The global food supply is near the breaking point. The world is
now eating more food than farmers grow, pushing global grain
stocks to their lowest level in 30 years. Oceans are overfished.
Hunger is already a stark and painful reality for more than 850
million people, including 300 million children. In a world of
starvation, the rich are starting to drive themselves around
powered by food (biofuels) that could have gone to the poor.

Capitalism will evolve to emphasize a steady state economy and
protection and renewal of natural capital - limiting production
and consumption to natural systems' constraints - or it will
continue ecocidal eating of life giving ecological systems to
power a growing wasteful throw away society. The cycle of ever
more energy needed to support growing populations all aspiring
to consume like a fat ass America must be broken.

Market fundamentalism must be challenged. The failure of markets
to place a price upon carbon causes climate change. Widening
gaps in income threaten social harmony. The inequalities are
grotesque, and the degree of blame for climate change,
deforestation and other environmental crises skewed towards the
rich. I am stunned. Sickened. We gotta rise up, rise up.

Stabilization of climate change and global ecological
sustainability will never be achieved without sharp reductions
in economic disparities between the Earth's peoples. Strictly
speaking it is too late to achieve global ecological
sustainability - where natural ecosystems operate as they have.

Yet we must work to bring human populations and aspirations
back into a reasonable balance with ecological systems in order
that humanity and the Earth have any future at all. In order that
all have enough to meet basic needs, and a biosphere to house
themselves and others, there needs to be less of us and less
disparity. This will require massively reducing carbon emissions
now, cutting population by three quarters, and by necessity
bringing the Earthly garden into our care with massive protected
areas and widespread regional scale ecological restoration.

There are different ways of showing love, and love is more than
between two people or a family. Do you love your Earthly home
habitat and the human and other species' families with which we
share it? I suggest more love of being and less of you. I am
opinionated as hell, but even I do not fully know how we are
going to feed, house and clothe the world while shrinking its
population, repairing planetary ecosystems and learning to live
sustainably. But I do know that we must try.

http://www.ecologicalinternet.org/
http://earthmeanders.blogspot.com/



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Old 08-02-2007, 11:01 PM posted to alt.religion.the-last-church,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.restaurants
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"Pete (..)" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:09:59 GMT, "ontheroad" wrote:


"Pete (..)" wrote in ...

snippage...



We simply do not NEED to eat meat. That's a fact.


We don't "need" veggies either.


Yes we do, to live.


There are NO plant sources of b12. You could just eat your s**t and not
wash your veggies then yes, you would not 'need' meat.


Her you go old chum.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html
====================

ROTFLMAO Thanks fool, you just proved what i said. there are NO plant
sources of b12.





snippage...




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Old 09-02-2007, 06:04 AM posted to alt.religion.the-last-church,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.restaurants
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On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:01:55 GMT, "ontheroad" wrote:


"Pete (..)" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:09:59 GMT, "ontheroad" wrote:


"Pete (..)" wrote in ...

snippage...


We simply do not NEED to eat meat. That's a fact.

We don't "need" veggies either.


Yes we do, to live.


There are NO plant sources of b12. You could just eat your s**t and not
wash your veggies then yes, you would not 'need' meat.


Her you go old chum.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html
====================

ROTFLMAO Thanks fool, you just proved what i said. there are NO plant
sources of b12.


Sorry I never made it clear.

It is a very good question to ask oneself. We must ensure we do get
the right amounts of all vitamins each day. Thanks.

Me personally, I get 100% of my recommended daily allowance from
Wilkinsons own Brand Multi Vitamins, at 1.99 for 180 tablets. I also
get B12 from Pure Margarine ie:10g = 50%RDA etc. So on that basis I'll
highlight the areas of relevance again.

Here you go old chum.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html
Good sources of vitamin B12 for vegetarians are dairy products or
free-range eggs. pint of milk (full fat or semi skimmed) contains
1.2 g. A slice of vegetarian cheddar cheese (40g) contains 0.5 g. A
boiled egg contains 0.7 g. Fermentation in the manufacture of yoghurt
destroys much of the B12 present. Boiling milk can also destroy much
of the B12.

Vegans are recommended to ensure their diet includes foods fortified
with vitamin B12. A range of B12 fortified foods are available. These
include yeast extracts, Vecon vegetable stock, veggieburger mixes,
textured vegetable protein, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower
margarines, and breakfast cereals.


http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/

What every vegan should know about vitamin B12
Very low B12 intakes can cause anaemia and nervous system damage.

The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12
(including some plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast
cereals) and B12 supplements. Vitamin B12, whether in supplements,
fortified foods, or animal products, comes from micro-organisms.

Most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid anaemia and nervous system
damage, but many do not get enough to minimise potential risk of heart
disease or pregnancy complications.

To get the full benefit of a vegan diet, vegans should do one of the
following:


eat fortified foods two or three times a day to get at least three
micrograms (g or mcg) of B12 a day or


take one B12 supplement daily providing at least 10 micrograms or


take a weekly B12 supplement providing at least 2000 micrograms.
If relying on fortified foods check the labels carefully to make sure
you are getting enough B12. For example, if a fortified plant milk
contains 1 microgram of B12 per serving then consuming three servings
a day will provide adequate vitamin B12. Others may find the use of
B12 supplements more convenient and economical.

The less frequently you obtain B12 the more B12 you need to take, as
B12 is best absorbed in small amounts. The recommendations above take
full account of this. There is no harm in exceeding the recommended
amounts or combining more than one option.

Good information supports vegan health, pass it around.

If you don't read another word about B12 you already know all you need
to know. If you want to know more, read on.

This information was prepared by Stephen Walsh, a UK Vegan Society
trustee, and other members of the International Vegetarian Union
science group (IVU-SCI), in October 2001. This information may be
freely reproduced but only in its entirety (list of endorsers may be
omitted).

Endorsers


"Note for participants in the King's College study"


Vitamin B12 and vegan diets
Lessons from history
B12 is an exceptional vitamin. It is required in smaller amounts than
any other known vitamin. Ten micrograms of B12 spread over a day
appears to supply as much as the body can use. In the absence of any
apparent dietary supply, deficiency symptoms usually take five years
or more to develop in adults, though some people experience problems
within a year. A very small number of individuals with no obvious
reliable source appear to avoid clinical deficiency symptoms for
twenty years or more. B12 is the only vitamin that is not recognised
as being reliably supplied from a varied wholefood, plant-based diet
with plenty of fruit and vegetables, together with exposure to sun.
Many herbivorous mammals, including cattle and sheep, absorb B12
produced by bacteria in their own digestive system. B12 is found to
some extent in soil and plants. These observations have led some
vegans to suggest that B12 was an issue requiring no special
attention, or even an elaborate hoax. Others have proposed specific
foods, including spirulina, nori, tempeh, and barley grass, as
suitable non-animal sources of B12. Such claims have not stood the
test of time.

In over 60 years of vegan experimentation only B12 fortified foods and
B12 supplements have proven themselves as reliable sources of B12,
capable of supporting optimal health. It is very important that all
vegans ensure they have an adequate intake of B12, from fortified
foods or supplements. This will benefit our health and help to attract
others to veganism through our example.


Getting an adequate amount of B12
National recommendations for B12 intakes vary significantly from
country to country. The US recommended intake is 2.4 gs a day for
ordinary adults rising to 2.8 gs for nursing mothers. The German
recommendation is 3 gs a day. Recommended intakes are usually based
on 50% absorption, as this is typical for small amounts from foods. To
meet the US and German recommendations you need to obtain sufficient
B12 to absorb 1.5 gs per day on average. This amount should be
sufficient to avoid even the initial signs of inadequate B12 intake,
such as slightly elevated homocysteine and MMA levels, in most people.
Even slightly elevated homocysteine is associated with increased risk
of many health problems including heart disease in adults,
preeclampsia during pregnancy and neural tube defects in babies.

Achieving an adequate B12 intake is easy and there are several methods
to suit individual preferences. Absorption of B12 varies from about
50%, if about 1 g or less is consumed, to about 0.5% for doses of
1000 gs (1 mg) or above. So the less frequently you consume B12, the
higher the total amount needs to be to give the desired absorbed
amount.

Frequent use of foods fortified with B12 so that about one microgram
of B12 is consumed three times a day with a few hours in between will
provide an adequate amount. Availability of fortified foods varies
from country to country and amounts of B12 vary from brand to brand,
so ensuring an adequate B12 supply from fortified foods requires some
label reading and thought to work out an adequate pattern to suit
individual tastes and local products.

Taking a B12 supplement containing ten gs or more daily provides a
similar absorbed amount to consuming one g on three occasions through
the day. This may be the most economical method as a single high
potency tablet can be consumed bit by bit. 2000 gs of B12 consumed
once a week would also provide an adequate intake. Any B12 supplement
tablet should be chewed or allowed to dissolve in the mouth to enhance
absorption. Tablets should be kept in an opaque container. As with any
supplement it is prudent not to take more than is required for maximum
benefit, so intakes above 5000 g per week should be avoided despite
lack of evidence for toxicity from higher amounts.

All three options above should meet the needs of the vast majority of
people with normal B12 metabolism. Individuals with impaired B12
absorption may find that the third method, 2000g once a week, works
best as it does not rely on normal intrinsic factor in the gut. There
are other, very rare, metabolic defects that require completely
different approaches to meeting B12 requirements. If you have any
reason to suspect a serious health problem seek medical advice
promptly.


Symptoms of B12 deficiency
Clinical deficiency can cause anaemia or nervous system damage. Most
vegans consume enough B12 to avoid clinical deficiency. Two subgroups
of vegans are at particular risk of B12 deficiency: long-term vegans
who avoid common fortified foods (such as raw food vegans or
macrobiotic vegans) and breastfed infants of vegan mothers whose own
intake of B12 is low.

In adults typical deficiency symptoms include loss of energy,
tingling, numbness, reduced sensitivity to pain or pressure, blurred
vision, abnormal gait, sore tongue, poor memory, confusion,
hallucinations and personality changes. Often these symptoms develop
gradually over several months to a year before being recognised as
being due to B12 deficiency and they are usually reversible on
administration of B12. There is however no entirely consistent and
reliable set of symptoms and there are cases of permanent damage in
adults from B12 deficiency. If you suspect a problem then get a
skilled diagnosis from a medical practitioner as each of these
symptoms can also be caused by problems other than B12 deficiency.

Infants typically show more rapid onset of symptoms than adults. B12
deficiency may lead to loss of energy and appetite and failure to
thrive. If not promptly corrected this can progress to coma or death.
Again there is no entirely consistent pattern of symptoms. Infants are
more vulnerable to permanent damage than adults. Some make a full
recovery, but others show retarded development.

The risk to these groups alone is reason enough to call on all vegans
to give a consistent message as to the importance of B12 and to set a
positive example. Every case of B12 deficiency in a vegan infant or an
ill informed adult is a tragedy and brings veganism into disrepute.


The homocysteine connection
This is not however the end of the story. Most vegans show adequate
B12 levels to make clinical deficiency unlikely but nonetheless show
restricted activity of B12 related enzymes, leading to elevated
homocysteine levels. Strong evidence has been gathered over the past
decade that even slightly elevated homocysteine levels increase risk
of heart disease and stroke and pregnancy complications. Homocysteine
levels are also affected by other nutrients, most notably folate.
General recommendations for increased intakes of folate are aimed at
reducing levels of homocysteine and avoiding these risks. Vegan
intakes of folate are generally good, particularly if plenty of green
vegetables are eaten. However, repeated observations of elevated
homocysteine in vegans, and to a lesser extent in other vegetarians,
show conclusively that B12 intake needs to be adequate as well to
avoid unnecessary risk.


Testing B12 status
A blood B12 level measurement is a very unreliable test for vegans,
particularly for vegans using any form of algae. Algae and some other
plant foods contain B12-analogues (false B12) that can imitate true
B12 in blood tests while actually interfering with B12 metabolism.
Blood counts are also unreliable as high folate intakes suppress the
anaemia symptoms of B12 deficiency that can be detected by blood
counts. Blood homocysteine testing is more reliable, with levels less
than 10 mmol/litre being desirable. The most specific test for B12
status is methylmalonic acid (MMA) testing. If this is in the normal
range in blood (370 nmol/L) or urine (less than 4 mg /mg creatinine)
then your body has enough B12. Many doctors still rely on blood B12
levels and blood counts. These are not adequate, especially in vegans.


Is there a vegan alternative to B12-fortified foods and supplements?
If for any reason you choose not to use fortified foods or supplements
you should recognise that you are carrying out a dangerous experiment
- one that many have tried before with consistently low levels of
success. If you are an adult who is neither breast-feeding an infant,
pregnant nor seeking to become pregnant, and wish to test a potential
B12 source that has not already been shown to be inadequate, then this
can be a reasonable course of action with appropriate precautions. For
your own protection, you should arrange to have your B12 status
checked annually. If homocysteine or MMA is even modestly elevated
then you are endangering your health if you persist.

If you are breast feeding an infant, pregnant or seeking to become
pregnant or are an adult contemplating carrying out such an experiment
on a child, then don't take the risk. It is simply unjustifiable.

Claimed sources of B12 that have been shown through direct studies of
vegans to be inadequate include human gut bacteria, spirulina, dried
nori, barley grass and most other seaweeds. Several studies of raw
food vegans have shown that raw food offers no special protection.

Reports that B12 has been measured in a food are not enough to qualify
that food as a reliable B12 source. It is difficult to distinguish
true B12 from analogues that can disrupt B12 metabolism. Even if true
B12 is present in a food, it may be rendered ineffective if analogues
are present in comparable amounts to the true B12. There is only one
reliable test for a B12 source - does it consistently prevent and
correct deficiency? Anyone proposing a particular food as a B12 source
should be challenged to present such evidence.


A natural, healthy and compassionate diet
To be truly healthful, a diet must be best not just for individuals in
isolation but must allow all six billion people to thrive and achieve
a sustainable coexistence with the many other species that form the
"living earth". From this standpoint the natural adaptation for most
(possibly all) humans in the modern world is a vegan diet. There is
nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and
its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. In choosing
to use fortified foods or B12 supplements, vegans are taking their B12
from the same source as every other animal on the planet -
micro-organisms - without causing suffering to any sentient being or
causing environmental damage.

Vegans using adequate amounts of fortified foods or B12 supplements
are much less likely to suffer from B12 deficiency than the typical
meat eater. The Institute of Medicine, in setting the US recommended
intakes for B12 makes this very clear. "Because 10 to 30 percent of
older people may be unable to absorb naturally occurring vitamin B12,
it is advisable for those older than 50 years to meet their RDA mainly
by consuming foods fortified with vitamin B12 or a vitamin
B12-containing supplement." Vegans should take this advice about 50
years younger, to the benefit of both themselves and the animals. B12
need never be a problem for well-informed vegans.

Good information supports vegan health, pass it around.




Further information:
Dietary Reference Intakes for Thiamin, Riboflavin, Niacin, Vitamin B6,
Folate, Vitamin B12, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin, and Choline, National
Academy Press, 1998 ISBN 0-309-06554-2
(http://books.nap.edu/books/030906554...6.html#pagetop)


Vitamin B12: Are you getting it?, by Jack Norris,
http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/b12rec.html


Homocysteine in health and disease, ed. Ralph Carmel and Donald W.
Jacobsen, Cambridge University Press, 2001, ISBN 0-521-65319-3

1st edition October 31st 2001
--









Disclaimer

Pete has taken all reasonable care to ensure that pages published by him
were accurate on the date of publication or last modification.
Other pages which may be linked or which Pete may have published are in
a personal capacity. Pete takes no responsibility for the consequences
of error or for any loss or damage suffered by users of any of the information
published on any of these pages, and such information does not form any
basis of a contract with readers or users of it.

It is in the nature of Usenet & Web sites, that much of the information is
experimental or constantly changing, that information published may
be for test purposes only, may be out of date, or may be the personal
opinion of the author.
Readers should verify information gained from the Web/Usenet with the appropriate
authorities before relying on it.

Should you no longer wish to read this material or content, please use your
newsreaders kill filter.
  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 09-02-2007, 05:55 PM posted to alt.religion.the-last-church,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.restaurants
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 49
Default Easy McTarget

Dutch wrote:
"Pete (..)" wrote
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:47:48 +0000, Martin Willett
wrote:


[..]

The starving are not starving
because people eat meat but because they haven't got any money, they
will be just as poor if nobody eats meat.

Not if we care enough to go veggie. There will be more than enough
food to share, if we care enough to share. If you don't care now,
you'll never care. That's not our fault.


That is just vegan rhetoric.There's more than enough food for the world now,
the problem of hunger is not the result of a lack of food, it's a result of
of economic, political, logistic, and climatic factors, not due to a
worldwide food shortage. If everyone truly "cared" the problem could be
solved today.


That is why vegetarianism is such a bad idea. If you want to feed the
world just do it. There's nothing stopping you except money and
political will. Meat is irrelevant. Don't wait for everybody to change
to a lifestyle you show to be so unattractive. What is the point of
being a vegetarian when everybody is? Nobody will notice. Nobody will
care. You won't be special any more. The animals haven't noticed, they
never will. Nobody will thank you.

If the whole world does become vegan what will the shock-troops of
veganism do with their surplus moral outrage? That doesn't bear thinking
about, does it? But don't worry, everybody knows it isn't going to
happen. You're as safe being a vegan as you are being an anarchist or a
Jehovah's Witness: for all you whinge on about how wonderful it will be
you can be confident that it will never actually happen and you can
carry on feeling superior to the rest of the population and having your
own little hobby.
--

Martin Willett


http://mwillett.org/
  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 09-02-2007, 08:13 PM posted to alt.religion.the-last-church,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.restaurants
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 49
Default Easy McTarget


"Pete (..)" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:01:55 GMT, "ontheroad" wrote:


"Pete (..)" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:09:59 GMT, "ontheroad" wrote:


"Pete (..)" wrote in ...

snippage...


We simply do not NEED to eat meat. That's a fact.

We don't "need" veggies either.

Yes we do, to live.


There are NO plant sources of b12. You could just eat your s**t and not
wash your veggies then yes, you would not 'need' meat.


Her you go old chum.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html
====================

ROTFLMAO Thanks fool, you just proved what i said. there are NO plant
sources of b12.


Sorry I never made it clear.

It is a very good question to ask oneself. We must ensure we do get
the right amounts of all vitamins each day. Thanks.

Me personally, I get 100% of my recommended daily allowance from
Wilkinsons own Brand Multi Vitamins, at 1.99 for 180 tablets. I also
get B12 from Pure Margarine ie:10g = 50%RDA etc. So on that basis I'll
highlight the areas of relevance again.
==================

LOL So, you prefer using massive world resources from the petro-chemical
industry instead of just eating na natural product.
thanks for again proving the hypocrisy and ignorance of veg*n loons,
killer....



snip stuff that proved that b12 does not come in any plnat foods....


  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 10-02-2007, 03:42 AM posted to alt.religion.the-last-church,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.restaurants
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,028
Default Easy McTarget


"Martin Willett" wrote in message
...
Dutch wrote:
"Pete (..)" wrote
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:47:48 +0000, Martin Willett
wrote:


[..]

The starving are not starving
because people eat meat but because they haven't got any money, they
will be just as poor if nobody eats meat.
Not if we care enough to go veggie. There will be more than enough
food to share, if we care enough to share. If you don't care now,
you'll never care. That's not our fault.


That is just vegan rhetoric.There's more than enough food for the world
now, the problem of hunger is not the result of a lack of food, it's a
result of of economic, political, logistic, and climatic factors, not due
to a worldwide food shortage. If everyone truly "cared" the problem could
be solved today.


That is why vegetarianism is such a bad idea. If you want to feed the
world just do it. There's nothing stopping you except money and political
will. Meat is irrelevant. Don't wait for everybody to change to a
lifestyle you show to be so unattractive. What is the point of being a
vegetarian when everybody is? Nobody will notice. Nobody will care. You
won't be special any more. The animals haven't noticed, they never will.
Nobody will thank you.

If the whole world does become vegan what will the shock-troops of
veganism do with their surplus moral outrage? That doesn't bear thinking
about, does it? But don't worry, everybody knows it isn't going to happen.
You're as safe being a vegan as you are being an anarchist or a Jehovah's
Witness: for all you whinge on about how wonderful it will be you can be
confident that it will never actually happen and you can carry on feeling
superior to the rest of the population and having your own little hobby.


I could not agree more. Much of the world's population that are barely able
to scrape out an existence rely largely on hunting for small animals like
rodents and keeping low-maintenance animals like chickens and goats. If
these extremist vegan dreamers had their way we would be airlifting organic
rice and carrots to every remote corner of Africa and Asia. What a bunch of
nonsense. The whole thing is a poorly constructed house of cards.


  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 10-02-2007, 02:29 PM posted to alt.religion.the-last-church,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.restaurants
pearl
 
Posts: n/a
Default Easy McTarget

"Dutch" wrote in message news:[email protected]

"Martin Willett" wrote in message
...
Dutch wrote:
"Pete (..)" wrote
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:47:48 +0000, Martin Willett
wrote:

[..]

The starving are not starving
because people eat meat but because they haven't got any money, they
will be just as poor if nobody eats meat.
Not if we care enough to go veggie. There will be more than enough
food to share, if we care enough to share. If you don't care now,
you'll never care. That's not our fault.

That is just vegan rhetoric.There's more than enough food for the world
now, the problem of hunger is not the result of a lack of food, it's a
result of of economic, political, logistic, and climatic factors,


'Livestock a major threat to environment
...
.... a steep environmental price, according to the FAO report,
Livestock's Long Shadow -Environmental Issues and Options.
"The environmental costs per unit of livestock production must
be cut by one half, just to avoid the level of damage worsening
beyond its present level," it warns.

When emissions from land use and land use change are included, the
livestock sector accounts for 9 percent of CO2 deriving from human-
related activities, but produces a much larger share of even more
harmful greenhouse gases. It generates 65 percent of human-related
nitrous oxide, which has 296 times the Global Warming Potential
(GWP) of CO2. Most of this comes from manure.

And it accounts for respectively 37 percent of all human-induced
methane (23 times as warming as CO2), which is largely produced
by the digestive system of ruminants, and 64 percent of ammonia,
which contributes significantly to acid rain.

Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth's entire land surface, mostly
permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the global arable land
used to producing feed for livestock, the report notes. As forests are
cleared to create new pastures, it is a major driver of deforestation,
especially in Latin America where, for example, some 70 percent of
former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing.

Land and water

At the same time herds cause wide-scale land degradation, with about
20 percent of pastures considered as degraded through overgrazing,
compaction and erosion. This figure is even higher in the drylands
where inappropriate policies and inadequate livestock management
contribute to advancing desertification.

The livestock business is among the most damaging sectors to the
earth's increasingly scarce water resources, contributing among other
things to water pollution, euthropication and the degeneration of coral
reefs. The major polluting agents are animal wastes, antibiotics and
hormones, chemicals from tanneries, fertilizers and the pesticides used
to spray feed crops. Widespread overgrazing disturbs water cycles,
reducing replenishment of above and below ground water resources.
Significant amounts of water are withdrawn for the production of feed.

Livestock are estimated to be the main inland source of phosphorous
and nitrogen contamination of the South China Sea, contributing to
biodiversity loss in marine ecosystems.

Meat and dairy animals now account for about 20 percent of all
terrestrial animal biomass. Livestock's presence in vast tracts of land
and its demand for feed crops also contribute to biodiversity loss; 15
out of 24 important ecosystem services are assessed as in decline,
with livestock identified as a culprit.
....'
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/...448/index.html

'(i) Micro-climate: Deforestation of TRF leads to drastic changes
in microclimate (Lal and Cummings, 1979), as outlined in Fig. 6.
In general, deforestation eliminates the buffering effect of
vegetation cover and accentuates the extremes. Fluctuations in
micro-climatic parameters are greatly enhanced (e.g., relative
humidity, maximum and minimum temperatures for soil and air).
Deforestation decreases rainfall effectiveness and increases
aridization of the climate. Forest removal increases the magnitude
and intensity of net radiation reaching the soil surface. Ghuman
and Lal (1987) observed that in south central Nigeria, on average,
10.5 and ll.5 MJ/m2/day of insolation were received on a cleared
site compared to 0.4 and 0.3 MJ/m2/day in the forest during the
dry seasons of 1984 and 1985, respectively. There was no
appreciable difference in solar radiation received under forest
during the rainy (May) and dry (December) seasons (Table 8).
Vegetation removal also increases wind velocity (Table 8).

Deforestation decreases the maximum relative humidity, especially
during mid-day. There is also a corresponding increase in air
temperature and evaporation rate. Perhaps the most drastic effect
of deforestation is on soil temperature. The maximum soil
temperature at I to 5 cm depth can be 5 to 20C higher on
cleared land on a sunny day compared with land under TRF
cover. Because of high soil evaporation, the soil moisture content
of the surface layer is also lower in cleared than in forested soil
(Fig. 7).
...
There are several major concerns about deforestation of TRF.
These concerns are related to local, regional, and global effects
(Fig. 6). Local effects are the most drastic and are related to
changes in soil properties, vegetation, and micro-climate.
Regional effects are related to hydrological characteristics and
changes in meso-climate. Global effects are due to changes in
global cycles of C and N and water vapor and may be related
to global warming or the greenhouse effect.
...'
http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbook...e/uu27se05.htm

"Our study carried somewhat surprising results, showing that
although the major impact of deforestation on precipitation is
found in and near the deforested regions, it also has a strong
influence on rainfall in the mid and even high latitudes," said
Roni Avissar, lead author of the study, published in the April
2005 issue of the Journal of Hydrometeorology.
....'
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/..._rainfall.html

not due to a worldwide food shortage.


'As stocks run out and harvests fail, the world faces its worst crisis
for 30 years

By Geoffrey Lean
Published: 03 September 2006

Food supplies are shrinking alarmingly around the globe, plunging
the world into its greatest crisis for more than 30 years. New figures
show that this year's harvest will fail to produce enough to feed
everyone on Earth, for the sixth time in the past seven years.
Humanity has so far managed by eating its way through stockpiles
built up in better times - but these have now fallen below the danger
level.
....'
http://news.independent.co.uk/enviro...cle1325467.ece

If everyone truly "cared" the problem could
be solved today.


'Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth's entire land surface,
mostly permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the
global arable land used to producing feed for livestock, the report
notes. As forests are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major
driver of deforestation, especially in Latin America where, for
example, some 70 percent of former forests in the Amazon have
been turned over to grazing.
.....'
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/...448/index.html

From Technological Trajectories and the Human Environment.
1997. Pp. 56-73. Washington, DC: National Academy Press.
"How Much Land Can Ten Billion People Spare for Nature?"..

'By eating different species of crops and a more or less vegetarian
diet people can change the number that a plot can feed. And large
numbers of people do change their diets. The calories and protein
available from present cropland could provide a vegetarian diet to
ten billion people. A diet requiring food and feed totaling 6,000
calories daily for ten billion people, however, would overwhelm
the capability of present agriculture on present cropland. The
global totals of sun, CO2, fertilizer, and even water could produce
far more food than what ten billion people need.
...'
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?re...d=4767&page=56

That is why vegetarianism is such a bad idea. If you want to feed the
world just do it. There's nothing stopping you except money and political
will. Meat is irrelevant. Don't wait for everybody to change to a
lifestyle you show to be so unattractive. What is the point of being a
vegetarian when everybody is? Nobody will notice. Nobody will care. You
won't be special any more. The animals haven't noticed, they never will.
Nobody will thank you.

If the whole world does become vegan what will the shock-troops of
veganism do with their surplus moral outrage? That doesn't bear thinking
about, does it? But don't worry, everybody knows it isn't going to happen.
You're as safe being a vegan as you are being an anarchist or a Jehovah's
Witness: for all you whinge on about how wonderful it will be you can be
confident that it will never actually happen and you can carry on feeling
superior to the rest of the population and having your own little hobby.


'Avoiding acceptance of responsibility - denial, counterattack and
feigning victimhood

The serial bully is an adult on the outside but a child on the inside;
he or she is like a child who has never grown up. One suspects that
the bully is emotionally retarded and has a level of emotional
development equivalent to a five-year-old, or less. The bully wants
to enjoy the benefits of living in the adult world, but is unable and
unwilling to accept the responsibilities that go with enjoying the
benefits of the adult world. In short, the bully has never learnt to
accept responsibility for their behaviour.

When called to account for the way they have chosen to behave,
the bully instinctively exhibits this recognisable behavioural response:

a) Denial: the bully denies everything. Variations include Trivialization
...
b) Retaliation: the bully counterattacks. The bully quickly and
seamlessly follows the denial with an aggressive counter-attack of
counter-criticism or counter-allegation, often based on distortion
or fabrication. Lying, deception, duplicity, hypocrisy and blame are
the hallmarks of this stage. The purpose is to avoid answering the
question and thus avoid accepting responsibility for their behaviour.
...'
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm#Denial

I could not agree more. Much of the world's population that are barely able
to scrape out an existence rely largely on hunting for small animals like
rodents and keeping low-maintenance animals like chickens and goats. If
these extremist vegan dreamers had their way we would be airlifting organic
rice and carrots to every remote corner of Africa and Asia. What a bunch of
nonsense. The whole thing is a poorly constructed house of cards.


'The over-industrialized world cannot grow enough feed for its livestock
and have to import huge quantities of fodder from third world countries,
"Because of the large amounts of grain required to produce beef, the
geographic location of cattle herds can be misleading. Most industrial
countries do not have sufficient agricultural land to support their meat
consumption. Beef production is particularly land-intensive, because
one calorie of meat production requires 3 calories of grain inputs for
pork and 10 calories for beef. Land requirements can be up to 50 times
higher than for protein production from grain. As a result, a great deal
of the feed consumed in industrialized countries is not produced on
the home farm, but purchased from developing countries. For example,
Western Europe imports more than 40%, or 21 million tons per year, of
its feed grains from the Third World.";"Feeding the meat-eating (world)
class takes nearly 40% of the world's grain, grown on [one-third] of
the world's cropland."; "There has been a fundamental shift in world
agriculture this century from food grains to feed grains, and cattle now
compete with people for food. A third of the world's fish catch and
more than a third of the world's total grain output is fed to livestock."61
Huge numbers of third world peoples are starving because the crops
grown in their country are exported to fatten Animals in the
over-industrialized nations, "More people are hungry now than ever
before. Many states where hunger is prevalent are net exporters of food."
Even during times of famine, grains continue to be exported from third
world countries to the over-industrialized world, "In addition, about
two-thirds of the total domestic grain crop goes to feed-lots. The
agribusiness production of grains for foreign exchange-earning exports
to the industrialized region is one among several factors in the
displacement of the rural poor in the Third world onto marginal,
ecologically sensitive land. The magnitude of the food value involved
in this trade is significant: the 500 million people suffering starvation
could find relief from this condition if they had the cash to buy the
grains exported to industrial country feedlots. In that sense, the present
level of meat consumption in the wealthy industrialized countries is
directly related to starvation in the poor countries of the world."
.......'
http://www.geocities.com/carbonomics...2/11sp12b.html





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