I'm considering wine making. My wife and I drink a lot of wine... and beer.
I have been brewing for a long time and it recently occurred to me with how
much wine we drink that I should start winemaking. I have a couple of
simple questions based on the little I know.. hopefully they'll get to other
questions that I didn't know to ask.

Do juice kits have sulfites?

Is it possible to make good wine without using sulfites? I hate the
headaches.

Currently, I enjoy drinking $8 to $12 bottles of dry red wine. For those
that buy a lot of wine, you know what you can get in that range. Is it
possible to make wine as good as this? What does it take to reach this
mark? I ask because beginer homebrew.. well.. sucks. Until you learn the
skills to make truly great beer. But not all of these things are without
cost or lots of effort some people wouldn't go after.

My wife and I like very dry and full bodied red wines. If I understand
correctly, I should probably consider using oak barrels for at least some of
the aging to achieve some of the full body that I enjoy. But... looking
back to my $8 to $12 initial objective.. is oak barrel aging required or are
the use of oak barrels to hit the $20+ range?

What sort of aging facilities should I consider? With my homebrew... I need
a chilly room to cold condition my ales for six months. Well.. I don't
*need* it but that's what I do because that's the quality of ale I'm looking
for. Are there storage requirement equivalents with wine making for truly
great wine?

I've looked at oak barrel prices. They are expensive. Can they be reused?
How many times?

That's it for now. Thanks!!!

Scott

Forgot a few...

When I see a wine as being aged for 4 years? Is that aging time all in the
oak barrel? Or is some of it in the barrel and some in the bottle?

How common is it for winemakers to press grapes? Do they grow the grapes
themselves, or typically buy them from a local vineyard? Is it possible to
order grapes or is that a bad idea?

Is there a common batch size that produces good results? The typical beer
batch size is 5 gallons and scale doesn't affect it much as far as I am
concerned. I guess I'm asking mostly about oak barrle sizes. Are some
sizes better for good wine than others? Thus, distating the batch size?

Last one.. for those that grow their own grapes.... how long from starting
until you get vines mature enough to produce enough fruit for wine? How
much property does it take to grow enough grapes to produce say... 10
gallons of wine in a single season?

Ok.. I think that's it for now.

Scott

Hi Scott,

I'll take a stab at answering your questions, in-line below.


On 2/26/2006 9:00 PM, Scott Lindner wrote:
> I'm considering wine making. My wife and I drink a lot of wine... and beer.
> I have been brewing for a long time and it recently occurred to me with how
> much wine we drink that I should start winemaking. I have a couple of
> simple questions based on the little I know.. hopefully they'll get to other
> questions that I didn't know to ask.
>
> Do juice kits have sulfites?

All of the juice kits I have purchased have included sulfites. The kit
instructions from Winexpert (formerly Brew King) state that the amount
of sulfites they include is for wine which will be consumed in the short
term, and for longer aging they recommend adding additional sulfite to
protect and preserve the wine.

> Is it possible to make good wine without using sulfites? I hate the
> headaches.

It's possible that you have a sensitivity to sulfites. But it's far
more likely that you do not, statistically speaking. Sulfites are
commonly blamed for any headache after drinking wine, but unless you've
been medically diagnosed with a sulfite sensitivity you might be doing
yourself a disservice to exclude sulfites from your wine based on a
self-diagnosis.

Yes, you can make perfectly good wine without using sulfites. And if
you will be drinking it within a year of completing the kit, there's
probably no real need for the sulfites. However, sulfites in wine could
be compared to hops in beer. They protect and preserve. Yes, hops also
have a flavor component, so the analogy isn't a complete parallel. But
the use of sulfites will help prevent oxidation, and it has other
benefits as well.

> Currently, I enjoy drinking $8 to $12 bottles of dry red wine. For those
> that buy a lot of wine, you know what you can get in that range. Is it
> possible to make wine as good as this?

Absolutely.

> What does it take to reach this
> mark?

If you make homebrew you already have the skills required to make good
wine. The only component you may lack is patience, and if you've ever
aged a barley wine or other high gravity beer you won't lack this
either. To make a kit wine requires only that you pay attention to your
cleanliness, something every brewer has drilled into them, and that you
follow the directions. The most common departure from the kit
instructions is to allow more time in most of the steps, as the kits
often make a promise that you'll have your wine in a certain number of
weeks, when the same number of months would make a large improvement in
the results.

> I ask because beginer homebrew.. well.. sucks. Until you learn the
> skills to make truly great beer. But not all of these things are without
> cost or lots of effort some people wouldn't go after.
>
> My wife and I like very dry and full bodied red wines. If I understand
> correctly, I should probably consider using oak barrels for at least some of
> the aging to achieve some of the full body that I enjoy.

Being oaked and having a full body are two separate components of a
wine. It's true in general that lighter bodied wines are not commonly
oaked, but it's also true that it's not necessary to oak every dry, full
bodied red wine.

> But... looking
> back to my $8 to $12 initial objective.. is oak barrel aging required or are
> the use of oak barrels to hit the $20+ range?

No. Several manufacturers sell oak chips which can be used to oak a
wine being bulk aged in a carboy.

> What sort of aging facilities should I consider? With my homebrew... I need
> a chilly room to cold condition my ales for six months. Well.. I don't
> *need* it but that's what I do because that's the quality of ale I'm looking
> for. Are there storage requirement equivalents with wine making for truly
> great wine?

You can bulk age your wine filled carboys right next to your beer filled
carboys.

> I've looked at oak barrel prices. They are expensive. Can they be reused?
> How many times?

They can be re-used. But the care and maintenance of an oak barrel is a
subject worthy of a far more detailed answer than I can provide. I use
Stavin oak beads to oak my wine (and also my beers where the style is
appropriate) as I have found this to be a quality product. There are
other options, including buying an oak barrel, but this is my solution
to the question of oak. Most wine kits will come with some form of oak
if the style is appropriate to an oaked wine.

> That's it for now. Thanks!!!
>
> Scott

On 2/26/2006 9:14 PM, Scott Lindner wrote:
> Forgot a few...
>
> When I see a wine as being aged for 4 years? Is that aging time all
in the
> oak barrel? Or is some of it in the barrel and some in the bottle?

It is typically time spent bulk aging, either in oak barrels or in
stainless steel tanks, or in a combination of the two.

> How common is it for winemakers to press grapes? Do they grow the
grapes
> themselves, or typically buy them from a local vineyard? Is it
possible to
> order grapes or is that a bad idea?

I can't answer the statistical question with any certainty, but as a
guess I'd say that it's likely that there are a lot more home winemakers
who use kits than who grow or buy grapes for their home made wine. I
personally straddle the line. I make wine kits exclusively at my home,
but I also assist my father-in-law in his yearly production of 200+
gallons of red wine made from purchased grapes. I also make about 40+
gallons of melomel mead yearly, most of that from whole fruit but not
requiring a press.

> Is there a common batch size that produces good results? The typical
beer
> batch size is 5 gallons and scale doesn't affect it much as far as I am
> concerned. I guess I'm asking mostly about oak barrel sizes. Are some
> sizes better for good wine than others? Thus, distating the batch size?

The typical wine kit size is 5-6.5 gallons. The size wine barrel I see
in use at most local wineries is 50 gallons.

> Last one.. for those that grow their own grapes.... how long from
starting
> until you get vines mature enough to produce enough fruit for wine? How
> much property does it take to grow enough grapes to produce say... 10
> gallons of wine in a single season?

Like the barrel question, this question has no good short answer. I'd
suggest a web search for some good resources, or a browse through your
library, or you might find that your local homebrew supply shop has some
references. You might also consider contacting some local wineries for
information, as they are typically very helpful and they may even be in
the business of selling the vines.

> Ok.. I think that's it for now.
>
> Scott


I hope this helps!


Cheers,
Ken Taborek

Scott Lindner wrote:
>My wife and I like very dry and full bodied red wines. If I understand
>correctly, I should probably consider using oak barrels for at least some of
>the aging to achieve some of the full body that I enjoy. But... looking
>back to my $8 to $12 initial objective.. is oak barrel aging required or are
>the use of oak barrels to hit the $20+ range?

Oak does not add (much) body. It may add some percieved body through
tannins and vanillin but not much. You do not need a barrel, jsut use
oak chips. If you do use a barrel you are absolutely going to need
sulfite, unless you like Brett in your wine.

Chances are you will need sulfite anyway....unless you are using the 28
day kits.

> When I see a wine as being aged for 4 years? Is that aging time all in the
> oak barrel? Or is some of it in the barrel and some in the bottle?

Both, but mostly bottle.

> How common is it for winemakers to press grapes? Do they grow the grapes
> themselves, or typically buy them from a local vineyard? Is it possible to
> order grapes or is that a bad idea?

Depending on region. If you have a source for locally produced grapes,
then it is a bit more common.

> Is there a common batch size that produces good results? The typical beer
> batch size is 5 gallons and scale doesn't affect it much as far as I am
> concerned. I guess I'm asking mostly about oak barrle sizes. Are some
> sizes better for good wine than others? Thus, distating the batch size?

most kits are 6 gallons.

> Last one.. for those that grow their own grapes.... how long from starting
> until you get vines mature enough to produce enough fruit for wine? How
> much property does it take to grow enough grapes to produce say... 10
> gallons of wine in a single season?

Generally it takes 3 years. Ten gallons of wine would need about 5-6
vines or so. Planted in a single row you would need 4-8 feet
inbetween vines...so anywhere from 20-50 feet long and a good 4 feet
wide.

Most suppliers like to sell vines in groups of 25 though.

> Oak does not add (much) body. It may add some percieved body through
> tannins and vanillin but not much. You do not need a barrel, jsut use
> oak chips. If you do use a barrel you are absolutely going to need
> sulfite, unless you like Brett in your wine.

I read somewhere that the evaporation and topping off helps to create a full
body. Is this not true? No.. I have no interest in Brett in wine or beer.
How do people make sulfite free wine? I don't want to get too focused on
the sulfites though. I care more about great wine.

Thanks on the other questions.

Scott

> It's possible that you have a sensitivity to sulfites. But it's far more
> likely that you do not, statistically speaking. Sulfites are commonly
> blamed for any headache after drinking wine, but unless you've been
> medically diagnosed with a sulfite sensitivity you might be doing yourself
> a disservice to exclude sulfites from your wine based on a self-diagnosis.

I did diagnose myself. How I concluded that my headaches are from sulfites
is that I don't get the headaches from any other alcohol, I do get headaches
from wines with sulfites, and when I was in Southern Italy I did not get
headaches from the sulfite free wine made in the basements of the
restaurants I ate at. How do they do it without sulfites? Take a huge risk
and dump lots of wine? How long have sulfites been added to wine? This
isn't a primary objective of mine so I don't want to focus too heavily on
it... but if it can be done without sulfites and is reasonably convenient, I
will. As an example, homebrewers are super anal about sanitization.. but if
you tried to make beer without using any of our modern sanitizers you could
with little risk of infective. People have been making beer and wine for
thousands of years.


> Yes, you can make perfectly good wine without using sulfites. And if you
> will be drinking it within a year of completing the kit, there's probably
> no real need for the sulfites. However, sulfites in wine could be
> compared to hops in beer. They protect and preserve. Yes, hops also have
> a flavor component, so the analogy isn't a complete parallel. But the use
> of sulfites will help prevent oxidation, and it has other benefits as
> well.

Interesting. Good points.


> If you make homebrew you already have the skills required to make good
> wine. The only component you may lack is patience, and if you've ever
> aged a barley wine or other high gravity beer you won't lack this either.

I have the patience. I like to cold condition my brew for 6 months before
drinking.. but sometimes impatience does win over.


> To make a kit wine requires only that you pay attention to your
> cleanliness, something every brewer has drilled into them, and that you
> follow the directions. The most common departure from the kit
> instructions is to allow more time in most of the steps, as the kits often
> make a promise that you'll have your wine in a certain number of weeks,
> when the same number of months would make a large improvement in the
> results.

Just like homebrew kits. Totally lame. Those lies are what make people
think homebrew/wine sucks. Thanks.

Thanks on all of the answers. Can't wait to get myself going on the wine...
even though it will be a while before I start drinking any of it. More
reason to start soon!

Scott

"Scott Lindner" > wrote in message
...
> > It's possible that you have a sensitivity to sulfites. But it's far
more
> > likely that you do not, statistically speaking. Sulfites are commonly
> > blamed for any headache after drinking wine, but unless you've been
> > medically diagnosed with a sulfite sensitivity you might be doing
yourself
> > a disservice to exclude sulfites from your wine based on a
self-diagnosis.
>
> I did diagnose myself. How I concluded that my headaches are from
sulfites
> is that I don't get the headaches from any other alcohol, I do get
headaches
> from wines with sulfites, and when I was in Southern Italy I did not get
> headaches from the sulfite free wine made in the basements of the
> restaurants I ate at. How do they do it without sulfites? Take a huge
risk
> and dump lots of wine? How long have sulfites been added to wine? This
> isn't a primary objective of mine so I don't want to focus too heavily on
> it... but if it can be done without sulfites and is reasonably convenient,
I
> will. As an example, homebrewers are super anal about sanitization.. but
if
> you tried to make beer without using any of our modern sanitizers you
could
> with little risk of infective. People have been making beer and wine for
> thousands of years.
>
>
> > Yes, you can make perfectly good wine without using sulfites. And if
you
> > will be drinking it within a year of completing the kit, there's
probably
> > no real need for the sulfites. However, sulfites in wine could be
> > compared to hops in beer. They protect and preserve. Yes, hops also
have
> > a flavor component, so the analogy isn't a complete parallel. But the
use
> > of sulfites will help prevent oxidation, and it has other benefits as
> > well.
>
> Interesting. Good points.
>
>
> > If you make homebrew you already have the skills required to make good
> > wine. The only component you may lack is patience, and if you've ever
> > aged a barley wine or other high gravity beer you won't lack this
either.
>
> I have the patience. I like to cold condition my brew for 6 months before
> drinking.. but sometimes impatience does win over.
>
>
> > To make a kit wine requires only that you pay attention to your
> > cleanliness, something every brewer has drilled into them, and that you
> > follow the directions. The most common departure from the kit
> > instructions is to allow more time in most of the steps, as the kits
often
> > make a promise that you'll have your wine in a certain number of weeks,
> > when the same number of months would make a large improvement in the
> > results.
>
> Just like homebrew kits. Totally lame. Those lies are what make people
> think homebrew/wine sucks. Thanks.
>
> Thanks on all of the answers. Can't wait to get myself going on the
wine...
> even though it will be a while before I start drinking any of it. More
> reason to start soon!
>
> Scott

Here are some numbers on sulfites for you Scott. They are taken from
"Concepts in Wine Chemistry" by Margalit, page 259

salad bar = 950 PPM
cider = 45
citrus juice = 80
dried apricots = 1750
raisins = 200
wine = 120

By implication, if you can eat at a salad bar or eat raisins or other dried
fruit and not get a headache, then sulfite is probably not an issue.
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

It's commonly but mistakenly believed that sulfites are a common source
of health problems. In fact, sulfites cause NO problems whatsoever for
the vast, vast majority of people. One in ten thousand people, every
single one of which is a severe asthmatic, cannot metabolize sulfites.
If you do not have severe asthma (and by severe I mean you're under a
doctor's care specifically for asthma and have to use a nebulizer on a
daily basis),jit's physically impossible for you to have this problem.

Some on this newsgroup have claimed that tannins in general are the
cause of most headache-like reactions to wine. I think this is also
incorrect. Physicians have known for over 50 years that a protein
called tryptamine, commonly found in aged cheese, chocolate, red wine,
and other foods, is an extremely common trigger for migraines and other
forms of severe headache. Tryptamine is a natural byproduct of aging
and cannot be removed from the wine. This is why migraine sufferers can
often drink new wines and white wines, but one glass of red wine will
put them in bed for 24 hours or longer.

A less common problem but one that can be life-threatening is the use
of food products in clarifying or flavouring wine. Isinglass contains
fish proteins, egg whites egg proteins, and chitosan seafood proteins.
People with severe allergies to these foods can go into anaphylactic
shock from consuming wine made with these fining agents. If wine is
fortified with Amaretto or Frangelico, those with nut allergies can
have severe reactions. I once ended up in hospital for a couple of days
after having a drink containing amaretto.

wd41

> Here are some numbers on sulfites for you Scott. They are taken from
> "Concepts in Wine Chemistry" by Margalit, page 259
>
> salad bar = 950 PPM
> cider = 45
> citrus juice = 80
> dried apricots = 1750
> raisins = 200
> wine = 120
>
> By implication, if you can eat at a salad bar or eat raisins or other
> dried
> fruit and not get a headache, then sulfite is probably not an issue.
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA

What are the quantities in those things? I tell you one thing, if you put
wine at an all you can eat salad bar I'm going to shoot way over the salad
bar in sulfites consumed.

By the way... I'm in San Diego. Not too far from you, other end of the 56
now that it's open.

Scott

> It's commonly but mistakenly believed that sulfites are a common source
> of health problems. In fact, sulfites cause NO problems whatsoever for
> the vast, vast majority of people. One in ten thousand people, every
> single one of which is a severe asthmatic, cannot metabolize sulfites.
> If you do not have severe asthma (and by severe I mean you're under a
> doctor's care specifically for asthma and have to use a nebulizer on a
> daily basis),jit's physically impossible for you to have this problem.

I'm not an asthmatic in any sense of the word. But I do get terrible
headaches from drinking red wine.


> Some on this newsgroup have claimed that tannins in general are the
> cause of most headache-like reactions to wine. I think this is also
> incorrect. Physicians have known for over 50 years that a protein
> called tryptamine, commonly found in aged cheese, chocolate, red wine,
> and other foods, is an extremely common trigger for migraines and other
> forms of severe headache. Tryptamine is a natural byproduct of aging
> and cannot be removed from the wine. This is why migraine sufferers can
> often drink new wines and white wines, but one glass of red wine will
> put them in bed for 24 hours or longer.

Interesting.. but I eat copious amounts of cheese and chocolate on a very
regular basis without any headache troubles. I'll dig more into this
protein.


> A less common problem but one that can be life-threatening is the use
> of food products in clarifying or flavouring wine. Isinglass contains
> fish proteins, egg whites egg proteins, and chitosan seafood proteins.
> People with severe allergies to these foods can go into anaphylactic
> shock from consuming wine made with these fining agents. If wine is
> fortified with Amaretto or Frangelico, those with nut allergies can
> have severe reactions. I once ended up in hospital for a couple of days
> after having a drink containing amaretto.

I don't have problems with the foods you listed. I'm guessing that I'm not
allergic to Isinglass then, right?

Scott

"Scott Lindner" > wrote in message
...
> I'm not an asthmatic in any sense of the word. But I do get terrible
> headaches from drinking red wine.

That's probably a histamine reaction to tyramine - not a sulfite issue.
Antihistamines may help you avoid that.

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

"Scott Lindner" > wrote in message
...
> I read somewhere that the evaporation and topping off helps to create a
> full body. Is this not true?

It is true to some extent. Water and alcohol evaporate through the staves
of the barrel, rendering what remains more concentrated.

> How do people make sulfite free wine?

One needs to be much more careful about sanitation and topping up to make
wine without added sulfites. Note that even these wines will contain some
small measure of sulfite from the fermentation.

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

Maybe it's the amount of red wine you are drinking in one sitting that
is giving you headaches. hehe

Seriously though, white wines contain sulfites as well, often more than
most reds, so if white wine doesn't give you headaches then it must be
something besides the sulfites.

Scott Lindner wrote:
> > Here are some numbers on sulfites for you Scott. They are taken from
> > "Concepts in Wine Chemistry" by Margalit, page 259
> >
> > salad bar = 950 PPM
> > cider = 45
> > citrus juice = 80
> > dried apricots = 1750
> > raisins = 200
> > wine = 120
> >
> > By implication, if you can eat at a salad bar or eat raisins or other
> > dried
> > fruit and not get a headache, then sulfite is probably not an issue.
> > Lum
> > Del Mar, California, USA
>
> What are the quantities in those things? I tell you one thing, if you put
> wine at an all you can eat salad bar I'm going to shoot way over the salad
> bar in sulfites consumed.
>
> By the way... I'm in San Diego. Not too far from you, other end of the 56
> now that it's open.
>
> Scott

PPM is parts per million, so it describes a concentration. In those
terms, you'd need to drink 8x more wine than the weight of the stuff
from the salad bar to get the same amount of sulfites in absolute
terms.

Pp