I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this concerns
us both. I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a truly international
city and some have declined to try my pickles at the
farmer's market because I use champagne stock or red wine
vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly what I put in
my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
intelligently. Thoughts?
Edrena

The Joneses wrote:
>
> I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this concerns
> us both. I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
> alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
> religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
> that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a truly international
> city and some have declined to try my pickles at the
> farmer's market because I use champagne stock or red wine
> vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly what I put in
> my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
> intelligently. Thoughts?
> Edrena


That would depend on what the precise objection is. Properly made
vinegar is halal (the 'intoxicating principle' has been removed, so
Muslims can use it. The preference is for vinegars made directly from
fruits, grains etc, rather than those made from pre-made alcohols.

There will always be people who object on the basis that perhaps a
little alcohol still remains.

Have you any pickles made with other vinegars to offer?

The Joneses wrote:
> I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this concerns
> us both. I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
> alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
> religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
> that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a truly international
> city and some have declined to try my pickles at the
> farmer's market because I use champagne stock or red wine
> vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly what I put in
> my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
> intelligently. Thoughts?
> Edrena
>
>
If your product is heated the alcohol will vapor off and only leave the
taste of the original wine or champagne. Lots of folks cook with wine
knowing full well that the alcohol content is nil once it heats up. IIRC
the boiling point of alcohol is well below that of water. The wine
vinegars have absolutely no alcoholic content so I don't understand the
objection to using it for pickling.

George

Arri London wrote:

> The Joneses wrote:
> >Has anyone ever had religious/moral
> > reservations about using an alcohol product
> > that isn't alcohol anymore? Thoughts?
>
> That would depend on what the precise objection is. Properly made
> vinegar is halal (the 'intoxicating principle' has been removed, so
> Muslims can use it. The preference is for vinegars made directly from
> fruits, grains etc, rather than those made from pre-made alcohols.
> There will always be people who object on the basis that perhaps a
> little alcohol still remains. Have you any pickles made with other
> vinegars to offer?

Thanks for the great advice - one of my objectees was a Muslim lady. But
those eets had red wine as well so I understand that part. I'm always
looking for interesting pickles, and I might try the sweet mix with cider
vinegar. Regular white grain vinegar is a bit harsh, I like the wine
stuff. Who knows what some herb vinegars may be made with? I respect
anyone who won't do *any* alcohol related item, but I like the stuff -
fresh, fermented or finegar.
Edrena

George Shirley wrote:
> The Joneses wrote:
>
>> I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this concerns us
>> both. I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru alcohol
>> phase of various things. Has anyone ever had religious/moral
>> reservations about using an alcohol product that isn't alcohol
>> anymore? We have a truly international city and some have declined
>> to try my pickles at the farmer's market because I use champagne
>> stock or red wine vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly
>> what I put in my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
>> intelligently. Thoughts? Edrena
>>
>>
> If your product is heated the alcohol will vapor off and only leave
> the taste of the original wine or champagne. Lots of folks cook with
> wine knowing full well that the alcohol content is nil once it heats
> up. IIRC the boiling point of alcohol is well below that of water.

Actually, that's not true. It's called an azeotropic mixture. A
vigorous boil for a few minutes might boil off 2/3 of the alcohol, but
you can never boil off all the alcohol until all the water is gone too.
That's also why you cannot distill alcohol any stronger than 95%. If
you need to get rid of that last 5% water, you have to absorb it out
with something that has a great affinity for water, like sulfuric acid
(I don't know if sulfuric acid would work or if it would attack the
alcohol, it's just an example).

> The wine vinegars have absolutely no alcoholic content so I don't
> understand the objection to using it for pickling.

Some people don't know that vinegar is made from alcohol, and they find
even the mention of anything alcoholic offensive. It doesn't matter to
them that there is no alcohol left after the conversion to vinegar --
they know the alcohol used to be in there, dammit!

Perhaps it would be best to just label some of the jars that they are
made with the finest "grape vinegar". ;-)

Bob

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> The Joneses wrote:
> >
> > I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this concerns
> > us both. I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
> > alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
> > religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
> > that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a truly international
> > city and some have declined to try my pickles at the
> > farmer's market because I use champagne stock or red wine
> > vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly what I put in
> > my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
> > intelligently. Thoughts?
> > Edrena
>
>
> That would depend on what the precise objection is. Properly made
> vinegar is halal (the 'intoxicating principle' has been removed, so
> Muslims can use it. The preference is for vinegars made directly from
> fruits, grains etc, rather than those made from pre-made alcohols.
>
> There will always be people who object on the basis that perhaps a
> little alcohol still remains.
>
> Have you any pickles made with other vinegars to offer?

My understanding is that all vinegar comes from alcohol - the "mother of
vinegar" microorganisms convert alcohol into acetic acid. It usually is not
two separate steps. For example I seriously doubt that any champaign
vinegar is made from actual champaign but rather from champaign grapes. So,
in the vat yeast convertsd the sugars to alcohol which is then converted to
acetic acid.

In my opinion objecting to vinegar because it came from alcohol is excessive
silly and moronic. I realize the OP needs to be diplomatic but I would take
some pleasure in telling these doofuses that all vinegar comes from alcohol.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"George Shirley" > wrote in message
...
> The Joneses wrote:
> > I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this concerns
> > us both. I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
> > alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
> > religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
> > that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a truly international
> > city and some have declined to try my pickles at the
> > farmer's market because I use champagne stock or red wine
> > vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly what I put in
> > my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
> > intelligently. Thoughts?
> > Edrena
> >
> >
> If your product is heated the alcohol will vapor off and only leave the
> taste of the original wine or champagne. Lots of folks cook with wine
> knowing full well that the alcohol content is nil once it heats up. IIRC
> the boiling point of alcohol is well below that of water. The wine
> vinegars have absolutely no alcoholic content so I don't understand the
> objection to using it for pickling.
>
> George
>

The idea that alcohol will all disappear during cooking is another
persistent myth. That its boiling point is lower than water plays a role but
does *not* mean that all the alcohol will all boil off first. It means
rather that the alcohol will boil off faster than the water. If, for
example, you put alcohol is a a dish and simmer it for 15 minutes, 40% of
the alc still remains. After 2.5 hurs 5% still remains. THis is from
experiments conducted by the USDA Nutrient Data Lasboratory. More details at
http://www.ochef.com/165.htm

Peter Aitken

In rec.food.cooking The Joneses > wrote:
> I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this concerns
> us both. I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
> alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
> religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
> that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a truly international
> city and some have declined to try my pickles at the
> farmer's market because I use champagne stock or red wine
> vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly what I put in
> my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
> intelligently. Thoughts?

I am struck by the irony of your request for intelligent discussion of
your customer's superstitions. They think that there is some kind of big
guy in the sky, who tells us earthlings what to do. And he says not to
eat certain things. Or else they will be doing something he calls a
"sin".

My suggestion: Congratulate them on their piety, and look for rational
customers.

--
....I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

Peter Aitken wrote:

> In my opinion objecting to vinegar because it came from alcohol is excessive
> silly and moronic. I realize the OP needs to be diplomatic but I would take
> some pleasure in telling these doofuses that all vinegar comes from alcohol.

Good points, esp the part about not *staying* alcoholic. Now I have some
information at least and points of view. I can't imagine a life without vinegar
or pickles. Must be dull.
Edrena

wrote:

> My suggestion: Congratulate them on their piety, and look for rational
> customers.

Yeah, not my place to question why or anything... we were told to
respectfully wish cranky unreasonable persons a nice day and ignore them
after.
Edrena

Peter Aitken wrote:

> "Arri London" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>The Joneses wrote:
>>
>>>I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this concerns
>>>us both. I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
>>>alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
>>>religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
>>>that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a truly international
>>>city and some have declined to try my pickles at the
>>>farmer's market because I use champagne stock or red wine
>>>vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly what I put in
>>>my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
>>>intelligently. Thoughts?
>>>Edrena
>>
>>
>>That would depend on what the precise objection is. Properly made
>>vinegar is halal (the 'intoxicating principle' has been removed, so
>>Muslims can use it. The preference is for vinegars made directly from
>>fruits, grains etc, rather than those made from pre-made alcohols.
>>
>>There will always be people who object on the basis that perhaps a
>>little alcohol still remains.
>>
>>Have you any pickles made with other vinegars to offer?
>
>
> My understanding is that all vinegar comes from alcohol - the "mother of
> vinegar" microorganisms convert alcohol into acetic acid.

Actually this isn't quite so. Much white vinegar is just acetic acid
and water, ands is usually made by bacterial action, but it doesn't
have to be. The acetic acid can be produced from several sources not
involving bacterial action including petrochemical catalyzation or
alcohol carbonylation.

> It usually is not two separate steps. For example I seriously doubt that any champaign
> vinegar is made from actual champaign but rather from champaign grapes. So,
> in the vat yeast converts the sugars to alcohol which is then converted to
> acetic acid.

It can be two steps or one. In the two-step process, yeasts convert
carbs to alcohol and acetobacters convert alcohol to acetic acid. In
the single-step approach, acetobacters ferment sugars, starches and
alcohol to acetic acid.

> In my opinion objecting to vinegar because it came from alcohol is excessive
> silly and moronic. I realize the OP needs to be diplomatic but I would take
> some pleasure in telling these doofuses that all vinegar comes from alcohol.

I think it's beyond silly. It's the sort of foolishness that
fundamentalist and orthodox adherents overlay on what would otherwise
be simple value systems. Ritual for its own sake that finally ends up
subverting the central messages.

Pastorio

in article , at
wrote on 11/6/04 7:03 am:

> In rec.food.cooking The Joneses > wrote:
>> I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this concerns
>> us both. I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
>> alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
>> religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
>> that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a truly international
>> city and some have declined to try my pickles at the
>> farmer's market because I use champagne stock or red wine
>> vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly what I put in
>> my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
>> intelligently. Thoughts?
>
> I am struck by the irony of your request for intelligent discussion of
> your customer's superstitions. They think that there is some kind of big
> guy in the sky, who tells us earthlings what to do. And he says not to
> eat certain things. Or else they will be doing something he calls a
> "sin".
>
> My suggestion: Congratulate them on their piety, and look for rational
> customers.
I am neither christian, jewish, buddhist nor muslim, but I think that we
should confine ourselves here to matters of preserving and food content, not
knocking other people's religious beliefs.
Ellen

Ellen Wickberg wrote:

> in article , at
> wrote on 11/6/04 7:03 am:
>
> > In rec.food.cooking The Joneses > wrote:
> >> I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this concerns
> >> us both. I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
> >> alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
> >> religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
> >> that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a truly international
> >> city and some have declined to try my pickles at the
> >> farmer's market because I use champagne stock or red wine
> >> vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly what I put in
> >> my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
> >> intelligently. Thoughts?
> >
> > My suggestion: Congratulate them on their piety, and look for rational
> > customers.
> I am neither christian, jewish, buddhist nor muslim, but I think that we
> should confine ourselves here to matters of preserving and food content, not
> knocking other people's religious beliefs.
> Ellen

And with that I thank all of you for your suggestions, thoughts, facts, wit and
wisdom. Food is, of course, influenced by politics & religion (or vicy versa?),
but I just won't go there today. I did put up some Madras Pickled Eggplant
yesterday. I feel like it'll improve with a coupla weeks' aging. I had to look
up Madras to find out which province it was in. And which country this year. If
I can't actually visit all the world, I'll just make their pickles. One by one.

Edrena

The Joneses > wrote in message >...
> I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this concerns
> us both. I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
> alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
> religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
> that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a truly international
> city and some have declined to try my pickles at the
> farmer's market because I use champagne stock or red wine
> vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly what I put in
> my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
> intelligently. Thoughts?
> Edrena

If you refer to Claudia Roden's "Book of Middle Eastern Food," one of
the most often cited English language texts on the subject, the pickle
recipes all call for wine vinegar. However, my Palestinan friend,
Johnny, who used ot one a Middle Eastern restaurant, uses a salt water
brine without alcohol. This isn't for religious reasons: He drinks
beer.

-bwg

Barry Grau wrote:

> Has anyone ever had
> > religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
> > that isn't alcohol anymore?
>
> If you refer to Claudia Roden's "Book of Middle Eastern Food," one of
> the most often cited English language texts on the subject, the pickle
> recipes all call for wine vinegar. However, my Palestinan friend,
> Johnny, who used ot one a Middle Eastern restaurant, uses a salt water
> brine without alcohol. This isn't for religious reasons: He drinks
> beer.
> -bwg

There's an idea. I haven't been too lucky with brined things, but I'll try again.
Edrena

Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> "Arri London" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > The Joneses wrote:
> > >
> > > I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this concerns
> > > us both. I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
> > > alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
> > > religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
> > > that isn't alcohol anymore? We have a truly international
> > > city and some have declined to try my pickles at the
> > > farmer's market because I use champagne stock or red wine
> > > vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly what I put in
> > > my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
> > > intelligently. Thoughts?
> > > Edrena
> >
> >
> > That would depend on what the precise objection is. Properly made
> > vinegar is halal (the 'intoxicating principle' has been removed, so
> > Muslims can use it. The preference is for vinegars made directly from
> > fruits, grains etc, rather than those made from pre-made alcohols.
> >
> > There will always be people who object on the basis that perhaps a
> > little alcohol still remains.
> >
> > Have you any pickles made with other vinegars to offer?
>
> My understanding is that all vinegar comes from alcohol - the "mother of
> vinegar" microorganisms convert alcohol into acetic acid. It usually is not
> two separate steps.

A lot of homemade vinegar is made from alcohol, rather than starting
from fruit or grains. Some commercial vinegars are made the same way.


>For example I seriously doubt that any champaign
> vinegar is made from actual champaign but rather from champaign grapes.

And you know this for certain?

>So,
> in the vat yeast convertsd the sugars to alcohol which is then converted to
> acetic acid.
>
> In my opinion objecting to vinegar because it came from alcohol is excessive
> silly and moronic.

No one has actually asked for your opinion. But of course *any* food
objections you have are entirely logical and intelligent.

I realize the OP needs to be diplomatic but I would take
> some pleasure in telling these doofuses that all vinegar comes from alcohol.
>
> --
> Peter Aitken
>
>
No doubt you would. It certainly is good for business....

I don't think it's really a good idea--or productive--to get involved in
"educating" someone on these issues, no matter what opinions you may
personally hold. It can only lead to grief and hard feelings, not to
mention loss of business and possibly even your venue if I'm reading
this right.

Just look vaguely into the distance and smile,
lips-together-teeth-apart, and say, "Sorry I can't help you unless you
can tell me what you can have and I can make it. Good luck with your
search." Then turn quickly to whomever is nearest you and say, "Did I
mention the news about Sam....."

B/

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Peter Aitken wrote:
> >

> >For example I seriously doubt that any champaign
> > vinegar is made from actual champaign but rather from champaign grapes.
>
> And you know this for certain?
>

Well no Arri I figure they make champagne, put it in bottles, put the cork
in, let it sit in the cellar for a while to get carbonated, then take the
cork out, pour it into a vat, and then make vinegar. Duh! I know that some
wine vinegars are made in 2 steps, wine first then vinegar, but I can't see
them doing that for champagne vinegar although I can't claim it never
happens.

> >
> > In my opinion objecting to vinegar because it came from alcohol is
excessive
> > silly and moronic.
>
> No one has actually asked for your opinion. But of course *any* food
> objections you have are entirely logical and intelligent.
>

Nope - I have almost no food objections and those that I do have are neither
logical nor intelligent.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Peter Aitken wrote:

> My understanding is that all vinegar comes from alcohol - the
> "mother of vinegar" microorganisms convert alcohol into acetic
> acid. It usually is not two separate steps.

I thought that "mother of vinegar" referred not to the microorganisms
(bacteria) that do the fermentation, but to some sludge
thrown off later in the process.

Steve

Steve Pope wrote:

> I thought that "mother of vinegar" referred not to the microorganisms
> (bacteria) that do the fermentation, but to some sludge
> thrown off later in the process.

Both. It's the sludge that does the fermentation. Actually, more like
slime.

B/

"Steve Pope" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> > My understanding is that all vinegar comes from alcohol - the
> > "mother of vinegar" microorganisms convert alcohol into acetic
> > acid. It usually is not two separate steps.
>
> I thought that "mother of vinegar" referred not to the microorganisms
> (bacteria) that do the fermentation, but to some sludge
> thrown off later in the process.
>
> Steve

Nope - that's the "son of vinegar." <g>

So would daughter of vinegar be vinaigrette?

"Peter Aitken" > wrote in message
. com...
> "Steve Pope" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Peter Aitken wrote:
> >
> > > My understanding is that all vinegar comes from alcohol - the
> > > "mother of vinegar" microorganisms convert alcohol into acetic
> > > acid. It usually is not two separate steps.
> >
> > I thought that "mother of vinegar" referred not to the microorganisms
> > (bacteria) that do the fermentation, but to some sludge
> > thrown off later in the process.
> >
> > Steve
>
> Nope - that's the "son of vinegar." <g>
>
>

zxcvbob > wrote:

> George Shirley wrote:
> > The Joneses wrote:
> >
> >> I hope nobody minds the cross-post, but I feel this concerns us
> >> both. I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru alcohol
> >> phase of various things. Has anyone ever had religious/moral
> >> reservations about using an alcohol product that isn't alcohol
> >> anymore? We have a truly international city and some have declined
> >> to try my pickles at the farmer's market because I use champagne
> >> stock or red wine vinegar. It is important to me to say exactly
> >> what I put in my products, and I'd like to be able to discuss this
> >> intelligently. Thoughts? Edrena
> >>
> >>
> > If your product is heated the alcohol will vapor off and only leave
> > the taste of the original wine or champagne. Lots of folks cook with
> > wine knowing full well that the alcohol content is nil once it heats
> > up. IIRC the boiling point of alcohol is well below that of water.
>
> Actually, that's not true. It's called an azeotropic mixture. A
> vigorous boil for a few minutes might boil off 2/3 of the alcohol, but
> you can never boil off all the alcohol until all the water is gone too.
> That's also why you cannot distill alcohol any stronger than 95%. If
> you need to get rid of that last 5% water, you have to absorb it out
> with something that has a great affinity for water, like sulfuric acid
> (I don't know if sulfuric acid would work or if it would attack the
> alcohol, it's just an example).
>
> > The wine vinegars have absolutely no alcoholic content so I don't
> > understand the objection to using it for pickling.
>
> Some people don't know that vinegar is made from alcohol, and they find
> even the mention of anything alcoholic offensive. It doesn't matter to
> them that there is no alcohol left after the conversion to vinegar --
> they know the alcohol used to be in there, dammit!

I know during Passover some foods normally made with vinegar are made
instead with "Sour Salt" - what is that, citric acid? Ascorbic acid? I
forget. Anyway, would a solution of that work well enough? And how
would we mix it in?

Blanche Nonken wrote:

> "Sour Salt" - what is that, citric acid?

That's it.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Reg wrote:

> Blanche Nonken wrote:
> > "Sour Salt" - what is that, citric acid?
> That's it.

All that's a little beyond my skills so far. I'll leave specialty foods
to the people who use them, or do them best. But's it's been an
interesting discussion for sure.
Edrena

The Joneses wrote:

> Reg wrote:
>
>>Blanche Nonken wrote:
>>
>>>"Sour Salt" - what is that, citric acid?
>>
>>That's it.
>
> All that's a little beyond my skills so far. I'll leave specialty foods
> to the people who use them, or do them best. But's it's been an
> interesting discussion for sure.

It usually comes in shakers like salt. Looks like salt and is pure
citric acid. Has a sour, lemony taste and a little bit can make the
flavors of foods sparkle as would a squeeze of lemon juice. It also
lowers pH so it can make foods for canning that are of marginal
acidity safer to BWB.

You want to sprinkle a pinch of it on a chicken you're roasting or on
veggies to nuke. Wonderful.

Pastorio

Blanche Nonken wrote:

> I know during Passover some foods normally made with vinegar are made
> instead with "Sour Salt"

That has to do more with special rules for grape products, as well as
white vinegar being grain. Apple cider vinegar is KLP. Then again, I
think we both know a certain newsgroup to ask about that in... <G>.....

> - what is that, citric acid? Ascorbic acid?

Citric. Same stuff as coats those "super sour" Japanese candies.

> I forget. Anyway, would a solution of that work well enough?

I'd think so, if it affected the pH. But one might need more
sophisticated equipment, like litmus strips or something. Then again,
if it tastes sour, it's probably low enough.

> And how would we mix it in?

Mix it with some of the brine, I'd imagine then pour that into the
kettle.

B/

A month or so ago, I bought a jug of cheap vinegar for pickling. After
I got it home I noticed a sticker on the lable that ammended "Red Wine
Vinegar" to "Red Wine Vinegar Style"

The ingredient list: water, acetic acid, red wine, red wine concntrate.

Obviously not made to get around the alcohol question, but some
lab-produced thing nonetheless. It did pickle the vegetables, but I
won't buy it again.

michael

wrote:
>
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:33:19 -0500, bulka >
> wrote:
>
> >A month or so ago, I bought a jug of cheap vinegar for pickling. After
> >I got it home I noticed a sticker on the lable that ammended "Red Wine
> >Vinegar" to "Red Wine Vinegar Style"
> >
> >The ingredient list: water, acetic acid, red wine, red wine concntrate.
> >
> >Obviously not made to get around the alcohol question, but some
> >lab-produced thing nonetheless. It did pickle the vegetables, but I
> >won't buy it again.
> >
>
> This junk has been around for a long time. You have to be
> *VERY* suspicious of all food products and read the labels
> very cautiously, and read the small print too. I take my
> reading glasses with me to the store nowadays.
>
> My husband is from the UK, which evidently has more
> consumer-friendly labeling laws and enforces them. He keeps
> making the mistake of BELIEVING labels in the USA, and I
> keep pointing out that no, it's not that way. 'Whole wheat
> bread' is a good example: this does NOT mean '100% whole
> wheat' in the USA unless it *says* '100% whole wheat'. Etc.
>
> Pat
> --

Nice to see you again Pat!
That same stuff is usually referred to as 'non-brewed condiment' in the
UK. It isn't allowed to be called vinegar and I think the word 'vinegar'
isn't even allowed to be anywhere on the label.

The Joneses > wrote in
:

<<snipped>>
>I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
> alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
> religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
> that isn't alcohol anymore?


Do theses same people avoid any products made with vanilla (or other)
extract(s)? Some are alcohol based...if so then their arguement is out the
window.

in article et, Peete at
wrote on 29/6/04 9:37 PM:

> The Joneses > wrote in
> :
>
> <<snipped>>
>> I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
>> alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
>> religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
>> that isn't alcohol anymore?
>
>
> Do theses same people avoid any products made with vanilla (or other)
> extract(s)? Some are alcohol based...if so then their arguement is out the
> window.
many do.
Ellen
--

Peete wrote:
>
> The Joneses > wrote in
> :
>
> <<snipped>>
> >I know that vinegar is made from fermentation thru
> > alcohol phase of various things. Has anyone ever had
> > religious/moral reservations about using an alcohol product
> > that isn't alcohol anymore?
>
> Do theses same people avoid any products made with vanilla (or other)
> extract(s)? Some are alcohol based...if so then their arguement is out the
> window.


Many Muslims do just that. They also avoid alcohol-based perfumes etc.
There are enough companies that supply alcohol-free flavourings.

unbelievably yukky stuff... the real thing is not hard to make.

Peter Watson

bulka wrote:
> A month or so ago, I bought a jug of cheap vinegar for pickling. After
> I got it home I noticed a sticker on the lable that ammended "Red Wine
> Vinegar" to "Red Wine Vinegar Style"
>
> The ingredient list: water, acetic acid, red wine, red wine concntrate.
>
> Obviously not made to get around the alcohol question, but some
> lab-produced thing nonetheless. It did pickle the vegetables, but I
> won't buy it again.
>
> michael