I happened to stop at this antiques/consignment shop that I haven't been
to for quite a while. While browsing about, a device caught my eye. At
first glance, I dismissed it as an old, fancy-looking percolator. But
something about it bugged me, so I looked it over again.

Pretty quickly, it became clear that this was *not* a percolator; it
also looked vaguely familiar. I bought it, for the princely sum of $12,
and took it home.

Opening up Bramah's "Coffee Makers," I flipped through and found it
within about 10-15 seconds. I'll be darned--it's a "Vienna
Incomparable," a "continental version" of a Parker Steam Fountain. It's
rather battered and pretty rusty. There were a number of different
versions, and I haven't across an imprint on my device.

See:
<http://homepage.mac.com/scott_r/catalog.html>

Clicking on each image will enlarge the picture. I'm not sure what the
little plastic knob in the lid is for.

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Sorry, all--this went to the wrong group.

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Scott wrote:

> See:
> <http://homepage.mac.com/scott_r/catalog.html>

Oh yeah. It's a kind of samovar.

B/

Scott > wrote:

>I happened to stop at this antiques/consignment shop that I haven't been
>to for quite a while. While browsing about, a device caught my eye. At
>first glance, I dismissed it as an old, fancy-looking percolator. But
>something about it bugged me, so I looked it over again.
>
>Pretty quickly, it became clear that this was *not* a percolator; it
>also looked vaguely familiar. I bought it, for the princely sum of $12,
>and took it home.
>
>Opening up Bramah's "Coffee Makers," I flipped through and found it
>within about 10-15 seconds. I'll be darned--it's a "Vienna
>Incomparable," a "continental version" of a Parker Steam Fountain. It's
>rather battered and pretty rusty. There were a number of different
>versions, and I haven't across an imprint on my device.
>
>See:
><http://homepage.mac.com/scott_r/catalog.html>
>
>Clicking on each image will enlarge the picture. I'm not sure what the
>little plastic knob in the lid is for.

Looks like sort of an upside down, steam driven, French press coffee
maker that could easily have been invented by Rube Goldberg ;-).
If the little black plastic knob comes out of the lid, perhaps it must
be removed whilst brewing so the steam pressure doesn't blow glass the
lid off?
That's my guess, who's next?

Ross.

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:28:09 GMT, Scott >
wrote:

>I happened to stop at this antiques/consignment shop that I haven't
been
>to for quite a while. While browsing about, a device caught my eye.
At
>first glance, I dismissed it as an old, fancy-looking percolator. But
>something about it bugged me, so I looked it over again.
>
>Pretty quickly, it became clear that this was *not* a percolator; it
>also looked vaguely familiar. I bought it, for the princely sum of
$12,
>and took it home.
>
>Opening up Bramah's "Coffee Makers," I flipped through and found it
>within about 10-15 seconds. I'll be darned--it's a "Vienna
>Incomparable," a "continental version" of a Parker Steam Fountain.
It's
>rather battered and pretty rusty. There were a number of different
>versions, and I haven't across an imprint on my device.
>
>See:
><http://homepage.mac.com/scott_r/catalog.html>
>
>Clicking on each image will enlarge the picture. I'm not sure what
the
>little plastic knob in the lid is for.

Scott, this is my first time here. Aloha! I wanted to make Surinam
Cherry jelly now and the search for jars is on. Glass weighs a lot,
in shipping here and then back to customers. Is there common
knowledge here on jars or even plastic that can take heat? I would so
appreciate reading about that.

BTW I suggested in alt.coffee that they use your FAQ. A.C. is in one
of its usual upheavals if you haven't been there. Danny of Merry Ole
is writing *the* FAQ or at least beginning.

With aloha,

Thunder of Smithfarms

http://www.smithfarms.com
Farmers & Sellers of 100%
Kona Coffee & other Great Stuff

In article >,
smithfarms pure kona > wrote:

> Scott, this is my first time here. Aloha! I wanted to make Surinam
> Cherry jelly now and the search for jars is on. Glass weighs a lot,
> in shipping here and then back to customers. Is there common
> knowledge here on jars or even plastic that can take heat? I would so
> appreciate reading about that.

Hi, Cea! What sort of packaging are you looking for? The standard
Ball/Kerr jars with 2-piece lids are generally used here.
<http://www.homecanning.com/usa/ALProducts.asp?CAT=500&P=2493>

I just weighed one of mine. Empty, it weighs 6-5/8 oz.; filled with jam,
not quite 1-lb., 1-oz.

I'm not personally familiar with *food grade*, heat-resistant plastic
jars available on the consumer level.

You're growing cherries now?


> BTW I suggested in alt.coffee that they use your FAQ. A.C. is in one
> of its usual upheavals if you haven't been there. Danny of Merry Ole
> is writing *the* FAQ or at least beginning.

Just looked... isn't Danny working on an espresso FAQ? Mine's on brewed
coffee, etc.

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In article m>,
Ross Reid > wrote:

> Looks like sort of an upside down, steam driven, French press coffee
> maker that could easily have been invented by Rube Goldberg ;-).
> If the little black plastic knob comes out of the lid, perhaps it must
> be removed whilst brewing so the steam pressure doesn't blow glass the
> lid off?
> That's my guess, who's next?


Oh, sure, the *off-topic* post I mistakenly make gets replies.

It's what I said: a "Vienna Incomparable." The initial design was made
by Samuel Parker, a brazier on Argyle Street, London, first patented in
1833. Some time later:
"the design crossed the English Channel to the Continent... to Germany
and Austria, where it was adopted and adapted. By the last half of the
nineteenth century it had a hooped frame on which it hung like a bird
cage, and it had evolved into the 'Vienna Incomparable' and even crossed
the Atlantic to the United States where it was mentioned and recommended
in several manuals of household economy and ladies' magazines. It
appeared for many years in the catalogue of the Army and Navy Stores in
London, imported from manufacturers in Germany in different sizes and
was fitted sometimes with a pouring lip and sometimes with a serving
tap. It survived well into the 1900s, Parker long forgotten, and known,
beyond all hope of correction, as a Vienna coffeemaker."

-- Edward and Joan Bramah, "Coffee Makers: 300 years of art and design"

In action, it seems to work in like the stovetop moka makers do
<http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.brewers.mokapot.shtml#mokapot>
water is forced by pressure up through a central tube and through
grounds held inside a perforated basket. This is *not* like what is
currently of as a percolator: the coffee does not recirculate back down
into the brewing water.

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On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:29:15 GMT, Scott >
wrote:

>In article >,
> smithfarms pure kona > wrote:

>
>Hi, Cea! What sort of packaging are you looking for? The standard
>Ball/Kerr jars with 2-piece lids are generally used here.
><http://www.homecanning.com/usa/ALProducts.asp?CAT=500&P=2493>
>
>I just weighed one of mine. Empty, it weighs 6-5/8 oz.; filled with
jam,
>not quite 1-lb., 1-oz.
>
>I'm not personally familiar with *food grade*, heat-resistant plastic
>jars available on the consumer level.
>
>You're growing cherries now?
>

Surinam Cherries grow wild here. They are from Surinam and make a
delightful aromatic jelly. I wanted to find jars -that are
lightweight and then I could sell the jelly from my web site. There
is more fruit than I can use which is sinful. My grandmother made
Surinam Jelly annually--like her world famous Mango Chutney.

aloha,
Thunder's pal


http://www.smithfarms.com
Farmers & Sellers of 100%
Kona Coffee & other Great Stuff

In article >,
smithfarms pure kona > wrote:

> Surinam Cherries grow wild here. They are from Surinam and make a
> delightful aromatic jelly. I wanted to find jars -that are
> lightweight and then I could sell the jelly from my web site. There
> is more fruit than I can use which is sinful. My grandmother made
> Surinam Jelly annually--like her world famous Mango Chutney.

<sigh> I'm jealous. I have a lot of Concord grapes that grow on my
property, but that's it, fruitwise.

Well, it won't be like selling honey. I don't know that the health codes
are, specifically, on selling honey, but since honey is so resistant to
pathogens, I'd imagine that you wouldn't need to process it like you do
jams/jellies. And processing means heat/pressure resistant containers,
which'll have some heft to them.

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Scott wrote:
> In article m>,
> Ross Reid > wrote:
>
>
>>Looks like sort of an upside down, steam driven, French press coffee
>>maker that could easily have been invented by Rube Goldberg ;-).
>>If the little black plastic knob comes out of the lid, perhaps it must
>>be removed whilst brewing so the steam pressure doesn't blow glass the
>>lid off?
>>That's my guess, who's next?
>
>
>
> Oh, sure, the *off-topic* post I mistakenly make gets replies.
>
> It's what I said: a "Vienna Incomparable." The initial design was made
> by Samuel Parker, a brazier on Argyle Street, London, first patented in
> 1833. Some time later:
> "the design crossed the English Channel to the Continent... to Germany
> and Austria, where it was adopted and adapted. By the last half of the
> nineteenth century it had a hooped frame on which it hung like a bird
> cage, and it had evolved into the 'Vienna Incomparable' and even crossed
> the Atlantic to the United States where it was mentioned and recommended
> in several manuals of household economy and ladies' magazines. It
> appeared for many years in the catalogue of the Army and Navy Stores in
> London, imported from manufacturers in Germany in different sizes and
> was fitted sometimes with a pouring lip and sometimes with a serving
> tap. It survived well into the 1900s, Parker long forgotten, and known,
> beyond all hope of correction, as a Vienna coffeemaker."
>
> -- Edward and Joan Bramah, "Coffee Makers: 300 years of art and design"
>
> In action, it seems to work in like the stovetop moka makers do
> <http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.brewers.mokapot.shtml#mokapot>
> water is forced by pressure up through a central tube and through
> grounds held inside a perforated basket. This is *not* like what is
> currently of as a percolator: the coffee does not recirculate back down
> into the brewing water.
>
Lived next door to a Canajun couple whilst in the Middle East, you're
describing the same machine, only more modern, that they made their
coffee with. Trying to think back nearly 25 years I distinctly remember
that it made excellent coffee, much better than a percolater of a drip
machine.

George

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:12:23 -0500, wrote:

>On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:29:15 GMT, Scott
> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm not personally familiar with *food grade*, heat-resistant plastic
>>jars available on the consumer level.
>>
>
>I think there must be some though: we've bought some jam
>recently (Cheap and Nasty Brand) that was in plastic jars,
>also applesauce, also pasta sauce.
>
>http://www.usplastic.com has a lot of various food-grade
>plastic containers but whether or not they'd know if they
>are sufficiently heat resistant, I don't know. They
>probably would. A lot of their stuff is laboratory-grade,
>and too expensive for production use.
>
For the more technical people out there, the Nalgene labware website
has a chemical resistance chart:

<http://www.nalgenelabware.com/techdata/chemical/index.asp>

A number of the chemicals they reference are food ingredients, and
they deal with heat and prolonged exposure, as well as every major
plastic resin used.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

In article >,
wrote:

> I think there must be some though: we've bought some jam
> recently (Cheap and Nasty Brand) that was in plastic jars,
> also applesauce, also pasta sauce.
>
> http://www.usplastic.com has a lot of various food-grade
> plastic containers but whether or not they'd know if they
> are sufficiently heat resistant, I don't know. They
> probably would. A lot of their stuff is laboratory-grade,
> and too expensive for production use.

Sure, I don't doubt that such containers may exist, I just said I've
never seen them made available to the consumer. More importantly, I
don't know if they're heat resistant enough for a BWB. Were those
products even heat processed, or did they rely on preservatives?

Also, the question centered around the cost of shipping glass jars; any
plastic containers would have to be inexpensive enough to not eat up the
savings in shipping costs.


> They even have plastic wide-mouth 'Mason jars', although
> those are *very* pricey indeed.

If I'm looking at the same thing as you are, they don't appear to be
food-grade: "These polypropylene, heavy-walled Mason Jars are ideal for
industrial waste sampling, and long-term storage."
<http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pro...e=usplastic&ca
tegory%5Fname=Jars&product%5Fid=Polypropylene+Maso n+Jars+With+Polypropyle
ne+Caps>

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In article
>, Scott
> wrote:

> Sorry, all--this went to the wrong group.

Gotta admit you had me wondering. It was out of character.
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> updated 3-29-04.

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:30:03 GMT, Scott >
wrote:

>In article >,
> wrote:
>
>> http://www.usplastic.com has a lot of various food-grade
>> plastic containers but whether or not they'd know if they
>> are sufficiently heat resistant, I don't know. They
>> probably would. A lot of their stuff is laboratory-grade,
>> and too expensive for production use.
>
>Sure, I don't doubt that such containers may exist, I just said I've
>never seen them made available to the consumer. More importantly, I
>don't know if they're heat resistant enough for a BWB. Were those
>products even heat processed, or did they rely on preservatives?
>
>Also, the question centered around the cost of shipping glass jars;
any
>plastic containers would have to be inexpensive enough to not eat up
the
>
Thank you all very much. At least I have places to investigate. I
appreciate it a great deal.

with aloha,
Thunder's keeper

http://www.smithfarms.com
Farmers & Sellers of 100%
Kona Coffee & other Great Stuff

Scott > wrote:

>In article m>,
> Ross Reid > wrote:
>
>> Looks like sort of an upside down, steam driven, French press coffee
>> maker that could easily have been invented by Rube Goldberg ;-).
>> If the little black plastic knob comes out of the lid, perhaps it must
>> be removed whilst brewing so the steam pressure doesn't blow glass the
>> lid off?
>> That's my guess, who's next?
>
>
>Oh, sure, the *off-topic* post I mistakenly make gets replies.

(Snip)

I first read it in AC but why I replied in RFP is another question.

Ross.

smithfarms pure kona wrote:

> On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:29:15 GMT, Scott >
> wrote:
>
>
>>In article >,
>>smithfarms pure kona > wrote:
>
>
>>Hi, Cea! What sort of packaging are you looking for? The standard
>>Ball/Kerr jars with 2-piece lids are generally used here.
>><http://www.homecanning.com/usa/ALProducts.asp?CAT=500&P=2493>
>>
>>I just weighed one of mine. Empty, it weighs 6-5/8 oz.; filled with
>
> jam,
>
>>not quite 1-lb., 1-oz.
>>
>>I'm not personally familiar with *food grade*, heat-resistant plastic
>>jars available on the consumer level.
>>
>>You're growing cherries now?
>>
>
>
> Surinam Cherries grow wild here. They are from Surinam and make a
> delightful aromatic jelly. I wanted to find jars -that are
> lightweight and then I could sell the jelly from my web site. There
> is more fruit than I can use which is sinful. My grandmother made
> Surinam Jelly annually--like her world famous Mango Chutney.
>
> aloha,
> Thunder's pal
>

How about PETE soda bottles? Reused 1 litre bottles should be available
pretty much for free. I think PETE and polypropylene should be heat
resistant enough, polyethylene is probably not heat resistant enough.
Plus, it will be funny to imagine the receiver a soft drink bottle of
jam or pickles trying to figure out how to get them out. ;-)

I've seen clear or white polystyrene containers that can go in the oven!

Best regards,
Bob

In article >,
Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:

> For the more technical people out there, the Nalgene labware website
> has a chemical resistance chart:
>
> <http://www.nalgenelabware.com/techdata/chemical/index.asp>
>
> A number of the chemicals they reference are food ingredients, and
> they deal with heat and prolonged exposure, as well as every major
> plastic resin used.

hmmm... Here, they also have a max usage temperature, by material:

<http://nalgenelab.nalgenunc.com/tech...m=&p=Max+Use+T
emperature&txtMError=>

Many seem to have appropriate maximum use temperatures.

But, couple that with the Food and Beverage ratings:
<http://nalgenelab.nalgenunc.com/tech...m=&p=Food+and+
Bev+use+Rating+7&txtMError=>

Both LPDE and HPDE would appear to be out: they're listed as acceptable
for "nonacid, aqueous products; may contain salt, sugar or both (pH
above 5.0)." Jelly would be too acidic.

-- but the footnotes for Food and Beverage ratings page seem to be a
little screwed up. Where are 11 and 12 (e.g., PVC)?

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In article >,
Melba's Jammin' > wrote:

> Gotta admit you had me wondering. It was out of character.


"Out of character"?

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In article
>, Scott
> wrote:

> In article >,
> Melba's Jammin' > wrote:
>
> > Gotta admit you had me wondering. It was out of character.
>
>
> "Out of character"?

Yeah. You seem to be proper and all. I was surprised at an OT post
from you -- that's all. No offense intened.
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> updated 3-29-04.

In article >,
Melba's Jammin' > wrote:

> Yeah. You seem to be proper and all. I was surprised at an OT post
> from you -- that's all. No offense intened.

None taken. Just curious.

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"zxcvbob" > wrote in message
...
>
> How about PETE soda bottles? Reused 1 litre bottles should be
available
> pretty much for free. I think PETE and polypropylene should be
heat

There's probably a law about reusing a bottle to package food for
sale. I can't imagine that I (master recycler that I am) would want
to buy food in used containers.


> Plus, it will be funny to imagine the receiver a soft drink bottle
of
> jam or pickles trying to figure out how to get them out. ;-)
>

Yup! Not easy to stick the spoon down the neck.


> I've seen clear or white polystyrene containers that can go in the
oven!
>
> Best regards,
> Bob


Deb
--
(in Oregon, the pacific northWET) ;>

Deb wrote:
> "zxcvbob" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> How about PETE soda bottles? Reused 1 litre bottles should be
>> available pretty much for free. I think PETE and polypropylene should
>> be heat...
>
> There's probably a law about reusing a bottle to package food for sale.
> I can't imagine that I (master recycler that I am) would want to buy
> food in used containers.
>
>> Plus, it will be funny to imagine the receiver a soft drink bottle of
>> jam or pickles trying to figure out how to get them out. ;-)
>>
>
> Yup! Not easy to stick the spoon down the neck.


I didn't realize we were talking about *selling* jelly, or I wouldn't have
even commented. OTOH, soft drinks used to be sold in returnable bottles,
and some beer still is.

-bob

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 10:24:23 -0600, zxcvbob >
wrote:

>I didn't realize we were talking about *selling* jelly, or I wouldn't have
>even commented. OTOH, soft drinks used to be sold in returnable bottles,
>and some beer still is.
>
Reusable glass containers. Much easier to clean glass to a high enough
standard.

Maybe it's just me, but I always thought that soda tasted better out
of glass containers, especially the heavy glass ones they would wash
and refill.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Gary S. wrote:
>
> Maybe it's just me, but I always thought that soda tasted better out
> of glass containers, especially the heavy glass ones they would wash
> and refill.
>

It did taste better, but they switched from sugar to high-fructose corn
syrup for a sweetener at about the same time they switched from glass to
plastic bottles. So it's hard to tell which change made the bigger difference.

-bob

In article >,
zxcvbob > wrote:

> It did taste better, but they switched from sugar to high-fructose corn
> syrup for a sweetener at about the same time they switched from glass to
> plastic bottles. So it's hard to tell which change made the bigger
> difference.

From what I've heard, Coke and Pepsi in various countries still use
sugar--i.e., places where Archer Daniels wasn't able to keep sugar
prices so high.

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Scott wrote:

> In article >,
> zxcvbob > wrote:
>
>
>>It did taste better, but they switched from sugar to high-fructose corn
>>syrup for a sweetener at about the same time they switched from glass to
>>plastic bottles. So it's hard to tell which change made the bigger
>>difference.
>
>
> From what I've heard, Coke and Pepsi in various countries still use
> sugar--i.e., places where Archer Daniels wasn't able to keep sugar
> prices so high.
>

The Waco, Texas beverage cannery that produces Dr. Pepper still uses
cane sugar. You pretty much have to special order it and it tastes
totally different from the stuff made with corn syrup, tastes like it
did when I was a young man 50 years ago.

George

"zxcvbob" > wrote in message
...
>
> I didn't realize we were talking about *selling* jelly, or I
wouldn't have
> even commented. OTOH, soft drinks used to be sold in returnable
bottles,
> and some beer still is.
>
> -bob


When I took the local Master Recycling training course, we were
taught that most recyclable/reusable bottles are crushed and remade
nowadays. Seems its the easiest way to get the impurities (bottle
full of butts) out of the glass.

At home, I recycle and reuse as much as possible, even to the point
of reusing commercial jars and lids for jams and relishes that are
meant to be used within a few months. But for sales, I'd guess
there are rather strict rules about sterilization.

Deb
--
(in Oregon, the pacific northWET) ;>

Some time back, someone was looking for one piece lids for mason
jars. Is a 70mm with G type thread a regular mason jar? If so,
this site has the lids on closeout. At $0.13 ea, they're not much
more than the flats. (Unless you can always buy on sale.)

Deb
--
(in Oregon, the pacific northWET) ;>


"Scott" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> wrote:
>
> > I think there must be some though: we've bought some jam
> > recently (Cheap and Nasty Brand) that was in plastic jars,
> > also applesauce, also pasta sauce.
> >
> > http://www.usplastic.com has a lot of various food-grade
> > plastic containers but whether or not they'd know if they
> > are sufficiently heat resistant, I don't know. They
> > probably would. A lot of their stuff is laboratory-grade,
> > and too expensive for production use.
>
> Sure, I don't doubt that such containers may exist, I just said
I've
> never seen them made available to the consumer. More importantly,
I
> don't know if they're heat resistant enough for a BWB. Were those
> products even heat processed, or did they rely on preservatives?
>
> Also, the question centered around the cost of shipping glass
jars; any
> plastic containers would have to be inexpensive enough to not eat
up the
> savings in shipping costs.
>
>
> > They even have plastic wide-mouth 'Mason jars', although
> > those are *very* pricey indeed.
>
> If I'm looking at the same thing as you are, they don't appear to
be
> food-grade: "These polypropylene, heavy-walled Mason Jars are
ideal for
> industrial waste sampling, and long-term storage."
>
<http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pro...5Fname=usplast
ic&ca
>
tegory%5Fname=Jars&product%5Fid=Polypropylene+Maso n+Jars+With+Polypr
opyle
> ne+Caps>
>
> --
> to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net"
> please mail OT responses only

On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 01:10:41 -0800, "Deb" > wrote:

>When I took the local Master Recycling training course, we were
>taught that most recyclable/reusable bottles are crushed and remade
>nowadays. Seems its the easiest way to get the impurities (bottle
>full of butts) out of the glass.
>
True for glass and aluminum containers. The process of forming them
into new containers will remove impurities and contamination.

The PET bottles (clear, used for soda) collected in bottle return
prgrams can be recycled into polyester fiber, which is used for
batting, woven in rugs, and made into polyester fleece and made into
warm jackets and the like, indistinguishable from brand-new polyester
without the labels.

>At home, I recycle and reuse as much as possible, even to the point
>of reusing commercial jars and lids for jams and relishes that are
>meant to be used within a few months. But for sales, I'd guess
>there are rather strict rules about sterilization.
>
For commercial foods, wouldn't you WANT them to be strict?

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

In article >,
Scott > wrote:
>In article >,
> zxcvbob > wrote:

>> It did taste better, but they switched from sugar to high-fructose corn
>> syrup for a sweetener at about the same time they switched from glass to
>> plastic bottles. So it's hard to tell which change made the bigger
>> difference.

>From what I've heard, Coke and Pepsi in various countries still use
>sugar--i.e., places where Archer Daniels wasn't able to keep sugar
>prices so high.

There's a couple of places in the US where both the corn syrup and cane
sugar versions are found on the shelf--though at substantially different
prices.

hawk
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