"Isabella Woodhouse" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Julie Bove" > wrote:
>
>> "Isabella Woodhouse" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >,
>> > "Marilyn" > wrote:
>
>> >> Some things have gotten quite ridiculous though when you read the
>> >> labels on things like wheat bread that say "allergen alert,
>> >> contains wheat". There is a point where people do need to take
>> >> responsibility for their own stupidity.
>> >
>> > Once again, are you referring to a real case and, if so, would it not
>> > serve a greater purpose to let us all be privy to the same facts? Or
>> > is
>> > this merely an hypothetical example? Your reference to wheat and
>> > allergens has me especially curious. What exactly are you implying
>> > when
>> > you make reference to responsibility and people's stupidity in such
>> > food-related matters? Have you knowledge of a rash of litigation
>> > related to allergy and autoimmune conditions? I just don't understand
>> > where it is you're going with this.
>>
>> Actually, some people can be really stupid when it comes to food.
>
> Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. But if you read back a bit in this thread,
> you will see that Marilyn was discussing instances where she seemed to
> feel that people were taking certain matters to court instead of taking
> personal responsibility for their own failure to use common sense or
> read instructions. So, based on the little bit she said about wheat and
> allergens, it seemed like she was maybe blaming people for not reading
> labels. But since it was not clear, I asked her to clarify. We can
> only await that clarification.
>
>> ...My daughter is allergic to wheat and I can't believe how many
>> people I've run across who do not know what all wheat is in. In two
>> different restaurants, I asked if the pork chops were breaded. They
>> said they were not. To clarify, I said, "So it's just a plain pork
>> chop with nothing on it? Because she's allergic to wheat." Then it
>> came out breaded. In one case I was told it was just flour and in
>> another case "grill seasoning". The waitresses didn't know that was
>> wheat. People also think she can have white bread instead of wheat.
>
> I have celiac so, believe me, I am very cognizant that many people, even
> restaurant wait-staffers (!), actually know almost nothing about what is
> in the food they eat or serve. Each time we eat out, I feel like I'm
> playing Russian roulette. Wheat is the main problem for people with
> celiac, but barley, rye, spelt, oats, triticale, farro, and a few other
> things are also toxic because they all share a certain protein commonly
> referred to as gluten.
>
> Despite my requests to the contrary, I've had people bring me salads
> with croutons not realizing there is wheat in croutons. And yes, the
> white bread versus "wheat" bread is also a very common misconception.
> That so many people don't know that white flour has wheat in it simply
> boggles the mind. They don't know what's in pasta either. Or that malt
> is usually made from barley or that you are not trying to be difficult
> when you ask to read a label because there are just so many processed
> foods that have some form of 'gluten' in them. Very few restaurants
> have scratch kitchens. I can't begin to count the number of places
> we've stopped at that had not a single entree on their menu that I could
> eat or that expected me to make a meal of dressing-less salad and a dish
> of canned applesauce.
>
>> I appreciate those warnings on foods. I am allergic to eggs and dairy
>> and I
>> avoid soy because it messes with my thyroid. Makes it easier for me when
>> I
>> buy bread for myself to see that statement rather than to read through
>> the
>> whole list of ingredients and possibly miss something. I once didn't see
>> the "whey" listed on some whole wheat tortillas because the ingredients
>> were
>> printed in tan writing on a clear bag.
>
> Though it has improved somewhat over the last year or so, labeling is
> still a gigantic problem. While more companies are taking it seriously,
> many still do not. I can't even count all the times I've had toxic
> reactions from mislabeled and gluten-contaminated foods. And each time
> I have a celiac reaction, it increases my likelihood of contracting
> intestinal cancer--- a disease many people with celiac contract and die
> from before they are ever diagnosed with celiac.
>
> So, at home, I make nearly everything from scratch as a result and we
> tend to eat out at restaurants that have scratch kitchens or have a
> well-constructed company policy with an in-serviced wait-staff. That so
> many people now have celiac and food allergies, and the percentage is
> still increasing, is very disturbing.

My daughter used to be allergic to gluten as well so she had to eat as a
celiac. I quickly learned that it was futile to use the word "gluten" to
the general population because nobody seemed to know what it was, aside
perhaps from a few people who had heard of high gluten flour.

We generally eat at a few select restaurants that prepare food specially for
us. Daughter wants to try the new Red Robin that opened in this area. They
do have a gluten free menu although it is small. I really dislike that
place a lot but agreed to take her there. Alas when we first attempted to
go there, there was a huge crowd waiting outside for tables. So we didn't
go. But one day we're going to have to.

We also eat occasionally at The Old Spaghetti Factory. They have a gluten
free pasta. I used to hate that place too, mainly because it is so cheap
and easy to make pasta at home. Okay... The gluten free pasta is not quite
as cheap, but still easy to make at home. But now that our choices of
restaurants are so limited, it is nice to know that we can get a safe meal
there. I have to eat the gluten free pasta myself because I have an egg
allergy and it's the only kind that is safe for me.

I have not heard of any lawsuits involving food allergies or auto-immune
stuff, but I could see it happening in certain situations. For instance, on
one board that I frequent, one of the posters accused a certain smoothie
chain of putting dairy in all of their smoothies and lying to the public
about it. They do advertise four smoothies that are all fruit. I couldn't
see how they could realistically do this (put dairy in the all fruit)
because to do so could make someone with an allergy very sick, or even kill
them. After I pointed this out to her, she said she hadn't been there in a
couple of years. She had since checked their website and things have
changed.

I just hate it when people spout off as though something were fact when they
really don't know what they are talking about.

On Oct 19, 7:15*am, Kitty > wrote:
> Ok, so far I've read the entire thread and still have a question.
> has anyone tried, or tested the idea of putting the cake mix into the
> jar and processing it by Hot water bath? * I assume the pressure of
> pressure canning it would keep the cake from rising and would result
> in an inferior product, but what about Hot water bath? * Just
> wondering. *I mean, they do make baked goods in cans, I have some
> "boston brown bread" in a can from the grocery so wondering what is
> stopping the home canner from doing that? * Kitty in pa

Interesting idea- wonder if it would cook?

Merryb wrote:
>
> Interesting idea- wonder if it would cook?

I think all of the breads/cakes I've ever seen in a can were already
dark before they were cooked. Otherwise they would cook, but would look
like steamed buns you get in a Chinese restaurant.

Going back to the original question, it just hit me. You can bake in a
glass pan, I used to do it all the time. I don't know what the effects
of a 350F oven would have on a glass canning jar instead of a pyrex pan
which is formulated to take the heat, but let's assume for a moment it
would survive.

When this cake in a glass pan came out of the oven you placed a lid on it.

If the rubber goo in the lid did not melt and run off or even worse
into the cake, it would seal as it got colder. Since the cake is still
producing water vapor, it would be better to let it cool until it is
still warm, but not over the melting point of the rubber.

This would be the same as wrapping a warm cake in aluminum foil or sealing
it with a vaccuum sealer in a mylar (so it would not melt if still warm)
bag. With a lot less handling and a much closer to sterile environment.

Note that I said closer to sterile, not sterile, so how long would it
last before it went bad?

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

In article >,
"Julie Bove" > wrote:

> "Isabella Woodhouse" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Julie Bove"
> > > wrote:
[...]
> >> ...My daughter is allergic to wheat and I can't believe how many
> >> people I've run across who do not know what all wheat is in. In
> >> two different restaurants, I asked if the pork chops were breaded.
> >> They said they were not. To clarify, I said, "So it's just a
> >> plain pork chop with nothing on it? Because she's allergic to
> >> wheat." Then it came out breaded. In one case I was told it was
> >> just flour and in another case "grill seasoning". The waitresses
> >> didn't know that was wheat. People also think she can have white
> >> bread instead of wheat.
> >
> > I have celiac so, believe me, I am very cognizant that many people,
> > even restaurant wait-staffers (!), actually know almost nothing
> > about what is in the food they eat or serve. Each time we eat out,
> > I feel like I'm playing Russian roulette. Wheat is the main
> > problem for people with celiac, but barley, rye, spelt, oats,
> > triticale, farro, and a few other things are also toxic because
> > they all share a certain protein commonly referred to as gluten.
> >
> > Despite my requests to the contrary, I've had people bring me
> > salads with croutons not realizing there is wheat in croutons. And
> > yes, the white bread versus "wheat" bread is also a very common
> > misconception. That so many people don't know that white flour has
> > wheat in it simply boggles the mind. They don't know what's in
> > pasta either. Or that malt is usually made from barley or that you
> > are not trying to be difficult when you ask to read a label because
> > there are just so many processed foods that have some form of
> > 'gluten' in them. Very few restaurants have scratch kitchens. I
> > can't begin to count the number of places we've stopped at that had
> > not a single entree on their menu that I could eat or that expected
> > me to make a meal of dressing-less salad and a dish of canned
> > applesauce.
> >
> >> I appreciate those warnings on foods. I am allergic to eggs and
> >> dairy and I avoid soy because it messes with my thyroid. Makes it
> >> easier for me when I buy bread for myself to see that statement
> >> rather than to read through the whole list of ingredients and
> >> possibly miss something. I once didn't see the "whey" listed on
> >> some whole wheat tortillas because the ingredients were printed in
> >> tan writing on a clear bag.
> >
> > Though it has improved somewhat over the last year or so, labeling
> > is still a gigantic problem. While more companies are taking it
> > seriously, many still do not. I can't even count all the times
> > I've had toxic reactions from mislabeled and gluten-contaminated
> > foods. And each time I have a celiac reaction, it increases my
> > likelihood of contracting intestinal cancer--- a disease many
> > people with celiac contract and die from before they are ever
> > diagnosed with celiac.
> >
> > So, at home, I make nearly everything from scratch as a result and
> > we tend to eat out at restaurants that have scratch kitchens or
> > have a well-constructed company policy with an in-serviced
> > wait-staff. That so many people now have celiac and food
> > allergies, and the percentage is still increasing, is very
> > disturbing.
>
> My daughter used to be allergic to gluten as well so she had to eat
> as a celiac. I quickly learned that it was futile to use the word
> "gluten" to the general population because nobody seemed to know what
> it was, aside perhaps from a few people who had heard of high gluten
> flour.

Given all the immune problems between the two of you, I hope you've both
had reliable testing done specifically for celiac. Your mention of
thyroid difficulties caught my attention because it is so very common
among people with celiac syndrome/gluten sensitive enteropathy.

> We generally eat at a few select restaurants that prepare food
> specially for us. Daughter wants to try the new Red Robin that
> opened in this area. They do have a gluten free menu although it is
> small. I really dislike that place a lot but agreed to take her
> there. Alas when we first attempted to go there, there was a huge
> crowd waiting outside for tables. So we didn't go. But one day
> we're going to have to.

We've been there and it's just ok. Like you said, not a lot on the menu
for someone who can't eat wheat but they do have the right attitude and
don't treat you like you're an alien. They don't use a dedicated french
fry fryer like Chic-Fil-A so the fries are likely contaminated. We
recently went to Stir Crazy for the first time and they let you choose
the ingredients for your own stir-fry and have three different GF sauce
options. I did not get sick there.... yaay! I saw the bottle of GF
(San-J) soy sauce sitting in their kitchen area. My favorite little GF
fast food place is Chipotle Mexican Grill. The only thing there with
gluten are the flour tortillas. So I usually get their fajita bowl
which is not too bad for fast food. Since they are handling flour
tortillas, I ask the server to change gloves. They have the GF crunchy
corn tortillas too.

> We also eat occasionally at The Old Spaghetti Factory. They have a
> gluten free pasta. I used to hate that place too, mainly because it
> is so cheap and easy to make pasta at home. Okay... The gluten free
> pasta is not quite as cheap, but still easy to make at home. But now
> that our choices of restaurants are so limited, it is nice to know
> that we can get a safe meal there. I have to eat the gluten free
> pasta myself because I have an egg allergy and it's the only kind
> that is safe for me.

There is a chain here (Pasta House) that will serve GF pasta for $2 more
but I have no idea whether the sauces are GF so I've never been there.
Lots of processed spaghetti sauce has flour in it. I have no idea what
kind of pasta they use either. So many of the GF brands, except
Tinkyada, are grainy and awful.

> I have not heard of any lawsuits involving food allergies or
> auto-immune stuff, but I could see it happening in certain
> situations. For instance, on one board that I frequent, one of the
> posters accused a certain smoothie chain of putting dairy in all of
> their smoothies and lying to the public about it. They do advertise
> four smoothies that are all fruit. I couldn't see how they could
> realistically do this (put dairy in the all fruit) because to do so
> could make someone with an allergy very sick, or even kill them.
> After I pointed this out to her, she said she hadn't been there in a
> couple of years. She had since checked their website and things have
> changed.

So many products have disclaimers on them now.... like "might contain
traces of wheat" or "made in a facility that uses wheat in other
products". Companies say they are afraid of being sued over allergens
in their food but I haven't heard of any lawsuits yet. I was once
assured by the owner of a small BBQ sauce company that his sauce was GF
but it wasn't. It was probably a processed ingredient from another
source. I'm confident he told me that in good faith and that is really
what is often at the heart of such matters. It's going to take some
time before manufacturers learn how to keep unnecessary gluten out of
their products. But I have noticed that some things that used to have
flour now have corn or potato starch instead. Despite that, I try not
to buy anything with more than five ingredients.

Personally, I think an administrative complaint process should be
available for times when there are repeated problems with certain
brands. That would avert most litigation, sort out the wackos, and
provide an avenue of relief for legitimate complaints. What really
worries me, given all the recent problems, are ingredients we don't know
about that are from China.

> I just hate it when people spout off as though something were fact
> when they really don't know what they are talking about.

Me too. That's how all the false rumors and urban myths catch hold.
Someone with a strong opinion invents a little story about someone they
allegedly know to back up that opinion and, before you know it, 50,000
people have adopted a tall tale as truth or a single incident as a
frequent occurrence.

Isabella
--
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
-T.S. Eliot

"Isabella Woodhouse" > wrote in message
...

<snip>
>
> Personally, I think an administrative complaint process should be
> available for times when there are repeated problems with certain
> brands. That would avert most litigation, sort out the wackos, and
> provide an avenue of relief for legitimate complaints. What really
> worries me, given all the recent problems, are ingredients we don't know
> about that are from China.

Yes. That worries me too. Especially the spices. That seems to be very
common.
>
>> I just hate it when people spout off as though something were fact
>> when they really don't know what they are talking about.
>
> Me too. That's how all the false rumors and urban myths catch hold.
> Someone with a strong opinion invents a little story about someone they
> allegedly know to back up that opinion and, before you know it, 50,000
> people have adopted a tall tale as truth or a single incident as a
> frequent occurrence.

Indeed.

Isabella Woodhouse wrote:
>[...] What really
> worries me, given all the recent problems, are ingredients we don't know
> about that are from China.

Julie Bove:
>Yes. That worries me too. Especially the spices. That seems to be very
>common.

Butting in here... DW has coeliac disease too, and we find that the
whole and unmixed ground spices from Indian and Chinese grocers are OK.
I would not touch the mixed spices in general, nor the "name brand"
spices in the supermarkets (as they often use flour as a free-flow
agent), and always avoid asafoetida powder as all the brands available
in Australia have wheat flour in them.

Of greater issue with foods imported into Australia, at least, is the
lax labelling laws in other countries including European and North
American countries. When are you lot going to push back against the big
food lob-beasts?

[Europe is a PITA, with "gluten free" being something like 20ppm or
200ppm, not sure which but more than the 5ppm threshold of FSANZ]
--
Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia
"I think you are blind to the fact that the hand you hold
is the hand that holds you down" - Everclear

"Ross McKay" > wrote in message
...
> Isabella Woodhouse wrote:
>>[...] What really
>> worries me, given all the recent problems, are ingredients we don't know
>> about that are from China.
>
> Julie Bove:
>>Yes. That worries me too. Especially the spices. That seems to be very
>>common.
>
> Butting in here... DW has coeliac disease too, and we find that the
> whole and unmixed ground spices from Indian and Chinese grocers are OK.
> I would not touch the mixed spices in general, nor the "name brand"
> spices in the supermarkets (as they often use flour as a free-flow
> agent), and always avoid asafoetida powder as all the brands available
> in Australia have wheat flour in them.

That might be true in Australia, but it is not true here. Our plain spices
tend to be GF. I don't buy seasoned salt or taco seasoning or anything like
that. But I do buy Italian seasoning, Greek seasoning and Mexican
seasoning. All herbs and spices and no fillers.
>
> Of greater issue with foods imported into Australia, at least, is the
> lax labelling laws in other countries including European and North
> American countries. When are you lot going to push back against the big
> food lob-beasts?

Here, they have to label for the top eight allergens. That's wheat, soy,
dairy, eggs, shellfish, peanuts, tree nuts and fish. Some people complain
that sesame allergies are on the rise and that should be in there. And it
doesn't include gluten. So you still have to be careful with stuff like
oats, barley and natural flavorings.
>
> [Europe is a PITA, with "gluten free" being something like 20ppm or
> 200ppm, not sure which but more than the 5ppm threshold of FSANZ]

Yeah. What got me was the Mentos. We had assumed they were fine until they
came out with the new labeling and now we know that the glucose syrup is
from wheat. No more of those!

In article >,
Ross McKay > wrote:

> Isabella Woodhouse wrote:
> >[...] What really
> > worries me, given all the recent problems, are ingredients we don't know
> > about that are from China.
>
> Julie Bove:
> >Yes. That worries me too. Especially the spices. That seems to be very
> >common.
>
> Butting in here... DW has coeliac disease too, and we find that the
> whole and unmixed ground spices from Indian and Chinese grocers are OK.
> I would not touch the mixed spices in general, nor the "name brand"
> spices in the supermarkets (as they often use flour as a free-flow
> agent), and always avoid asafoetida powder as all the brands available
> in Australia have wheat flour in them.

What I meant by my China reference was the illegal presence of melamine
in so many foods from China. Apparently it is used by unscrupulous
sellers to raise the protein levels in certain products. If they are
that unscrupulous, heaven only knows what other cheating they might be
doing. I'd hate to cast all Chinese products in a bad light but until
their government gets a firm handle on this problem, I think caution is
prudent.

> Of greater issue with foods imported into Australia, at least, is the
> lax labelling laws in other countries including European and North
> American countries. When are you lot going to push back against the big
> food lob-beasts?

Some of us are trying but most Americans have become accustomed to low
prices for food related commodities--- regardless of poor quality. This
is starting to change, however, as people are beginning to learn the
true nature of the junk in their foods.

Our fairly new labeling law was fought vigorously by huge corporate
interests like Cargill, Nestle, Kraft/Altria/Phillip Morris, ADM, and
others. As a consequence of such well-funded lobbies, the 20 ppm
standard was adopted despite research showing that 20 ppm is more than
enough to sicken the majority of those affected by celiac. This
so-called standard provides a good out for companies who don't give a
darn about being careful on their production lines or who pollute their
foods with cheap fillers and excessive shelf-life extenders.

Like I said in a earlier post, I play Russian Roulette with most things
even minimally processed. So scratch cooking with unprocessed
ingredients is really the safest practice. There are, however, a few
companies that specialize in gluten-free products. They are often
fantastically expensive. Decent rice pasta, for instance, costs fully
4X as much as pasta made from durum or semolina in the US. I saw small
(9-10") gluten-free cheese pizzas for sale this morning for just under
$11 each.

> [Europe is a PITA, with "gluten free" being something like 20ppm or
> 200ppm, not sure which but more than the 5ppm threshold of FSANZ]
--
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
-T.S. Eliot

Getting a bit OT for this group, but...

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:11:42 -0700, "Julie Bove" wrote:

>That might be true in Australia, but it is not true here. Our plain spices
>tend to be GF. I don't buy seasoned salt or taco seasoning or anything like
>that. But I do buy Italian seasoning, Greek seasoning and Mexican
>seasoning. All herbs and spices and no fillers.

Most of our plain spices are GF, but also expensive when bought in
little bottles in the supermarket, and as they are produced in the same
factory as lots of non-GF stuff (including spice blends), I avoid them.
DW is too precious to warrant lax attention to cross-contamination
risks. Indian and Chinese grocers have always been a good supply for us.

>Here, they have to label for the top eight allergens. That's wheat, soy,
>dairy, eggs, shellfish, peanuts, tree nuts and fish. Some people complain
>that sesame allergies are on the rise and that should be in there. And it
>doesn't include gluten. So you still have to be careful with stuff like
>oats, barley and natural flavorings.

Yes, and the limits are set too high, and they specifically excluded
barley, oats and rye. Not much use, IMHO, at least from a GF
perspective.

>> [Europe is a PITA, with "gluten free" being something like 20ppm or
>> 200ppm, not sure which but more than the 5ppm threshold of FSANZ]
>
>Yeah. What got me was the Mentos. We had assumed they were fine until they
>came out with the new labeling and now we know that the glucose syrup is
>from wheat. No more of those!

Glucose syrup is the bane of DW existence. Australia does with wheat
what you lot do with corn, and glucose (dextrose) here is predominantly
from wheat and it is used widely where you lot would (commercially) use
HFCS. Labelling laws now mean that even if a product tests GF to within
5ppm, they have to declare the source if it is a listed allergen.

Of course, companies actually have to understand and follow the
legislation for any of that to be effective!
--
Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia
"Such a pretty girl, happy in an ugly place,
watching all the pretty people
doing lots of ugly things" - Everclear

On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:34:19 -0500, Isabella Woodhouse wrote:

>What I meant by my China reference was the illegal presence of melamine
>in so many foods from China. Apparently it is used by unscrupulous
>sellers to raise the protein levels in certain products. If they are
>that unscrupulous, heaven only knows what other cheating they might be
>doing. I'd hate to cast all Chinese products in a bad light but until
>their government gets a firm handle on this problem, I think caution is
>prudent.

Yeah, you get that sort of thing from all exporting countries from time
to time; Italian olive oil with all kinds of weird (and dangerous!)
adjuncts used to bulk them out; American meat exports to Japan and Korea
with bits of bone and brain they swore were excluded; Australian bulk
wheat exports tainted with poison-treated seed-grade wheat; etc. This
too will pass.

What has been most interesting is seeing where the powdered product
turns up. Here in Aus, it showed up in some unexpected places, like
Cadbury chocolates made in Australia. This means they were importing
powdered skim milk from China in preference to buying locally produced
skim milk powder. Nice. Evidently, it's cheaper to import Chinese
powdered skim milk than buy Australian, or even New Zealand (which is
just across the ditch).

Oh, and I worry more about what corporations are putting into food
*legally*, like HFCS, soy in wheat bread (MIL visiting has soy allergy),
etc. Problems that largely go away when you avoid food-in-packets.

>Some of us are trying but most Americans have become accustomed to low
>prices for food related commodities--- regardless of poor quality. This
>is starting to change, however, as people are beginning to learn the
>true nature of the junk in their foods.

It is wonderful to see a resurgence towards real food again, from many
quarters. This coming economic crisis (barely started, I reckon) is
bringing more people to preserving too. As much as it will hurt, it
could well result in a similar impact to people's health as did WWII on
Britain: focus minds on what people need to eat to stay healthy, and how
to find good food and put it by. Incidentally, WWII also had a direct
impact on detecting the link between coeliac disease and the Evil
Grains!

>Our fairly new labeling law was fought vigorously by huge corporate
>interests [...]

Here too, and the fight continues. Anything to make a quick buck!

>Like I said in a earlier post, I play Russian Roulette with most things
>even minimally processed. So scratch cooking with unprocessed
>ingredients is really the safest practice.

Yup, and putting it by safely is important too. Pulling down a jar of
home-made pickle or sauce sure beats having to play RR with commercial
brands who may or may not understand (or care for) labelling
legislation. Between bottling (what you lot call "canning", even when
you use jars... <shrug>) and fermenting, we've managed to avoid buying
many things we used to buy in cans and jars.

>There are, however, a few
>companies that specialize in gluten-free products. They are often
>fantastically expensive. Decent rice pasta, for instance, costs fully
>4X as much as pasta made from durum or semolina in the US.

Asian-style noodles don't and dried legumes, rice, buckwheat, etc.
cost no more gluten-free than any other way, because they naturally
don't have gluten. If you buy packaged food especially made for the GF
food-in-packets market, it costs more.

If you buy primary products that are naturally GF anyway, they may not
be as cheap as taxpayer-subsidized wheat, but then those things
shouldn't be that cheap in a free market :/

>I saw small (9-10") gluten-free cheese pizzas for sale this morning
>for just under $11 each.

Ugh!
--
Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia
"I think you are blind to the fact that the hand you hold
is the hand that holds you down" - Everclear