just joe > wrote:

> look up the word 'grammar'. you could probably find a good book on amazon.com

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

John Weiss > wrote
> Rod Speed > wrote
>> GreenieLeBrun > wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> GreenieLeBrun > wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>> GreenieLeBrun > wrote
>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>>>> Goomba38 > wrote
>>>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote

>>>>>>>>>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't itself need to be refrigerated?

>>>>>>>>>> Essentially because the mixing will normally end up contaminating the mixture, if only because the container
>>>>>>>>>> wont be sterile.

>>>>>>>>> They technically weren't sterile beforehand either.

>>>>>>>> The containers they came in were near enough.

>>>>>>> Sterility (from a microbiological view)is like virginity it either is or it isn't no in between.

>>>>>> Wrong with new containers for those components.

>>>>> No, not unless those containers were sterilised via autoclaving, hot air (160C), or gamma irradiation.

>>>> They end up close enough to sterile due to the manufacturing process.

>>> There is no such thing as "close enough to sterile". Sterility is an absolute.

>> Wrong, as always. A freshly manufactured glass bottle is close
>> enough to sterile just because of the process used to make it.

> So, what does that have to do with the state of olive oil or vinegar?

Everything to do with the fact that they are sterile enout for all practical purposes.

> Packaging plants don't manufacture bottles; they fill bottles that have been made elsewhere and shipped.

Duh.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 07:32:42 -0400, Daniel T. wrote:
> As I understand it, the garlic and other herbs put in the dressing may
> have botulism spores on them, the oil provides the environment for the
> botulism to grow. The vinegar doesn't stop the growth because it
> separates too easily from the mix.

FINALLY. Something that makes sense.

This definately makes sense as "one organism" is a temporal affair. Soon
there are 2, then 4, then 8, .... then billions.

This makes a lot of sense for refrigerating that which doesn't need to be
refrigerated, even after opening.

The dilemma is:
a) Olive oil alone, need not be refrigerated when opened
b) Vinegar alone, need not be refrigerated when opened
c) Yet, when they are mixed, now it needs refrigeration.

If we assume contaminated plant matter (e.g., garlic) is added to the mixed
olive oil and vinegar, then that could explain why the result needs to be
refrigerated.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:00:27 -0400, OhioGuy wrote:

> Perhaps if you mix it up enough, the acetic acid in the vinegar denatures
> some of the oil. The resulting mixture may be less acidic, and therefore
> easier for microbes to grow in.

Another hypothesis that makes sense to explain why oil and vinegar alone
don't need to be refrigerated but the mere act of mixing them requires the
result to be refrigerated.

HYPOTHESIS:
The oil dilutes the acidity of the vinegar.

That makes a lot of sense, presumably because microbes would rather grow in
1% acetic acid than 5% acetic acid.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:06:38 -0400, Daniel T. wrote:
> Homemade versions also may not contain sufficient quantities
> of food acids like vinegar (acetic acid) or lemon juice (citric acid)
> to kill harmful microorganisms.
> (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap1sal.html)

Sounds like we're on to something. Adding oil to the vinegar dilutes the
acidity and the home user might not be adding back enough acid.

Does this seem like the most likely culprit?

Daniel T. wrote:
> "Rod Speed" > wrote:
>> Daniel T. > wrote:
>
>>> As I understand it, the garlic and other herbs put in the
>>> dressing may have botulism spores on them, the oil provides the
>>> environment for the botulism to grow. The vinegar doesn't stop
>>> the growth because it separates too easily from the mix.
>> Doesnt explain why the ready to use stuff keeps fine unrefrigerated
>> but you need to refrigerate it once its been opened.
>
> Commercial salad dressings and acidified sauces are
> microbiologically safe. Manufacturers follow strict quality
> controls and diligently comply with FDA-mandated Good
> Manufacturing Practices in production of these commercial
> products. Commercial salad dressing and sauce products are also
> made with pasteurized eggs that are free of Salmonella and other
> pathogenic bacteria and further ensure the safety of these
> products. As such, these commercial products do not have the food
> safety risks associated with their homemade counterparts, which
> contain unpasteurized eggs. Homemade versions also may not
> contain sufficient quantities of food acids like vinegar (acetic
> acid) or lemon juice (citric acid) to kill harmful
> microorganisms.
> (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap1sal.html)

Bacteria don't have to be involved. Why do canned goods go bad in
months or years (depending on what food it is)? Why does unopened
cooking oil go bad in months? Why does expensive olive oil have a
longer shelf life?

They deteriorate chemically. When you make dressing, you add water,
acid, and air to olive oil. They speed the deterioration.

>
>> look up the word 'grammar'. you could probably find a good book on
>> amazon.com
>
> Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
>
>


er, uh, um, skippy?? you already wrote that. i think you're missing a verb.
but, whatever. your attempts at insults are so pedestrian that i'm amused
rather than offended. try some of these:

http://b3ta.com/questions/insults/

they speak english, so if you need help with translations, you have my
addie.

to save on postage, when you order your dictionary and grammar book, get a
thesaurus (you may need to look that word up), and the autobiography of ben
franklin (now he was a man that could drop an insult) or something on the
rich history of the algonquin club; dorthy parker et al.

but, you've been poked with a fork and you're done.

Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
just joe > wrote just the
puerile shit thats all it can ever manage.

Rod Speed wrote:
> Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
> just joe > wrote just the
> puerile shit thats all it can ever manage.
>
>
And the best that welfare Rod can ever manage is the same bot over
and over. Took him forever to figure out he was misspelling "puerile".
Come on, welfare boy, show us the flushing routine.

Jeanette Guire wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:06:38 -0400, Daniel T. wrote:
>> Homemade versions also may not contain sufficient quantities
>> of food acids like vinegar (acetic acid) or lemon juice (citric acid)
>> to kill harmful microorganisms.
>> (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap1sal.html)
>
> Sounds like we're on to something. Adding oil to the vinegar dilutes the
> acidity and the home user might not be adding back enough acid.
>
> Does this seem like the most likely culprit?


No it doesn't (doesn't dilute the acidity, and doesn't explain anything.)

The problem is that you are accepting the "oil and vinegar must be
refrigerated" as *fact* rather than as opinion.

It's too bad Bob Pastorio isn't here...

Bob

Rod Speed wrote:
> Daniel T. > wrote
>> Rod Speed > wrote
>>> Daniel T. > wrote:
>
>>>> As I understand it, the garlic and other herbs put in the dressing
>>>> may have botulism spores on them, the oil provides the
>>>> environment for the botulism to grow. The vinegar doesn't stop
>>>> the growth because it separates too easily from the mix.
>
>>> Doesnt explain why the ready to use stuff keeps fine unrefrigerated
>>> but you need to refrigerate it once its been opened.
>
>> Commercial salad dressings and acidified sauces are microbiologically safe.
>
> They do however tell you to refrigerate after opening. There's a reason for that.


The main reason is because the taste better that way.

Bob

zxcvbob wrote:

> Jeanette Guire wrote:
>>
>> Sounds like we're on to something. Adding oil to the vinegar dilutes the
>> acidity and the home user might not be adding back enough acid.
>> Does this seem like the most likely culprit?
>
>
> No it doesn't (doesn't dilute the acidity, and doesn't explain anything.)
>
> The problem is that you are accepting the "oil and vinegar must be
> refrigerated" as *fact* rather than as opinion.
>
> It's too bad Bob Pastorio isn't here...

No need for Bob this time. You've got it right.

The OP's question, specifically, was why does an oil/vinegar/spice mixture
need to be refrigerated.

The fact is that that it doesn't, regardless of what some food labels
may say. Food labels are written by lawyers these days, not food
scientists.

--
Reg

Jeanette Guire wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 07:32:42 -0400, Daniel T. wrote:
>> As I understand it, the garlic and other herbs put in the dressing may
>> have botulism spores on them, the oil provides the environment for the
>> botulism to grow. The vinegar doesn't stop the growth because it
>> separates too easily from the mix.
>
> FINALLY. Something that makes sense.

Only if it's fresh garlic and herbs; however, commercial preparations
generally use dried materials so botulism isn't an issue.

B/

zxcvbob wrote:
> Jeanette Guire wrote:
> > Daniel T. wrote:
> >> Homemade versions also may not contain sufficient quantities
> >> of food acids like vinegar (acetic acid) or lemon juice (citric acid)
> >> to kill harmful microorganisms.
> >> (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap1sal.html)
>
> > Sounds like we're on to something. Adding oil to the vinegar dilutes the
> > acidity and the home user might not be adding back enough acid.
>
> > Does this seem like the most likely culprit?
>
> No it doesn't (doesn't dilute the acidity, and doesn't explain anything.)
>
> The problem is that you are accepting the "oil and vinegar must be
> refrigerated" as *fact* rather than as opinion.

Actually the oil and vinegar don't mix, the oil floats on top... so
long as other ingredients aren't added that would contaminate and/or
emulsify the mixture then the oil and vinegar will remain separate and
have the same shelf life as though kept separate... both oil and
vinegar on their own when stored properly (cool and dark) each have a
two year shelf life. I just don't know why any normal brained
individual would want to store their oil and vinegar together in the
same container... each time they pour they won't get an equal quantity
of each unless they shake the container vigorusly (and what if they
don't want an equal mixture), and then they will prematurely
contaminate the mixture with airborne bacteria. There's good reason
why normal brained folks employ cruet sets, one for oil, one for
vinegar, even the most simple minded have been doing this for
centurys. duh And the cruets are typically small so they are refilled
often, this so they can sit out on the table without being too
concerned about being overly exposed to light before being consumed.
Vinegar should be stored in a cool dark place too.... you'll know it
has spoiled when it begins to develop a cloudy sediment... it can
still be used for cleaning purposes but I'd not want to consume it.

There's really no good rresason to refrigerate oil or vinegar,
refrigeration won't extend their shelf life to any great degree...
intelligent folks buy oil and vineager as they do other perishables,
like milk, no more than they can use within its normal shelf life.
And ther ei sno good reason to stock up on oil or vinegar, they are
very basic commodities whose price hasn't risen appreciably for a very
long time, like salt. For purposes of cooking salt spoils too, it
readily absorbs odors.

Sheldon

On 17 Oct 2007 15:03:17 -0700, Sheldon wrote:

> I just don't know why any normal brained
> individual would want to store their oil and vinegar together in the
> same container... each time they pour they won't get an equal quantity
> of each unless they shake the container vigorusly (and what if they
> don't want an equal mixture),

Hi Sheldon,
There may be better ideas out there (if so, let's all learn from each
other) - but why I make salad dressing "ahead of time" is
a) It's (much) easier to make a quart size once & use as needed
b) You get a consistent mixture every time (shake of course)
c) The spices and garlic have time to steep to impart flavor\

As to equal mixtures - I'm confused as to what you're trying to say. Most
recipes do NOT call for equal parts of oil and vinegar but why would the
ratio of oil to vinegar matter? The ratio consistency would certainly
IMPROVE when mixed because a dozen "applications" would all have the same
oil:vinegar ratio when pre-mixed as compared with individual applications
of oil + vinegar.

Besides the spices having time to steep in the mixture, when you pour oil
and vinegar separately into a large salad, you often get JUST oil or JUST
vinegar, forcing you to toss the salad (I never toss - I just pour and
eat).

So, different strokes for different folks ... but there are plenty good
reasons for folks to mix their oil and vinegar (in any ratio they desire)
beforehand.

BTW, I use a ratio of 1/3 vinegar to 2/3 oil. What ratio do you use?

It's obvious you really don't care so why listen to others as you are not
anyhow.
Do as you wish with it. Do you think most care?
Maybe you have a dorm room fridge? <grin>
"Rod Speed" > wrote in message
...
> Daniel MacKay > wrote:
>
>>> They're pretty close to sterile in practice.
>
>> You're not listening.
>
> You in spades.
>
>> Either a container is sterile - that is, a can, or a jar with
>> an airtight seal, and has been "processed" at a certain
>> temperature for a certain number of minutes, or it is not.
>> There is no such thing as "pretty close in practice."
>
> You can keep asserting that till you are blue in the face if you like,
> changes nothing.
>
>> Dressing and mayonnaise containers in the grocery store are not. They
>> have cardboard seals, are in no way airtight, and have not been
>> "processed."
>
> And they are close enough to sterile for all practical purposes anyway.
>
>> They *can't* be processed - you can't heat mayonnaise.
>
> We aint talking about mayonnaise.
>
>> Conversely, if you argue that a plastic jar with a cardboard seal
>
> Its got a plastic top as well as the cardboard seal.
>
>> is sufficient to preserve food, you should put up some fruits and
>> vegetables that way and check back on them in a couple of weeks.
>
> Having fun thrashing that straw man are you child ?
>

You asked and you got the answer but you now argue it. Please next time do
not post and just do as you are going to anyway.

"Rod Speed" > wrote in message
...
> John Weiss > wrote
>> Rod Speed > wrote...
>
>>>>>>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which
>>>>>>>> doesn't itself need to be refrigerated?
>
>>>>>>> Essentially because the mixing will normally end up contaminating
>>>>>>> the mixture, if only because the container wont be sterile.
>
>>>>>> They technically weren't sterile beforehand either.
>
>>>>> The containers they came in were near enough.
>
>>>> Not nearly...clean is a far cry from "sterile"
>
>>> They're pretty close to sterile in practice.
>
>> Nope.
>
> Yep.
>
>> Once the containers are opened, they are no longer sterile. After being
>> used many times and opened & closed repeatedly, they are no longer
>> sterile.
>
> And few bother to refrigerate olive oil and vinegar once they have
> been opened and the container doesnt say that you should either.
>
>> The container used for the mixture may be as clean or cleaner than the
>> bottles of oil & vinegar.
>
> Unlikely given that the container will have been washed
> in the home, and not new in the manufacturing plant.
>
>> FWIW, many restaurants keep salad dressings in unrefrigerated
>> containers. If you use them up in a reasonable time (a few days)
>> there is no need to refrigerate them.
>
> Irrelevant to the question that was asked.
>
>> OTOH, repeated shaking of the mixture will aerate it, and possibly
>> accelerate the oxidation of the olive oil, which will change its
>> taste and aroma. Refrigeration may help delay that oxidation.
>
>
>

Goomba38? No worries not a real Italian anyway LOL

Besides we use the ovlive oil way before it is in question.

We also have known you can cook with it as long as you never hit the flash
point of the oil.

"Rod Speed" > wrote in message
...
> GreenieLeBrun > wrote:
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>> Goomba38 > wrote
>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>
>>>>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which
>>>>>> doesn't itself need to be refrigerated?
>>>
>>>>> Essentially because the mixing will normally end up contaminating
>>>>> the mixture, if only because the container wont be sterile.
>>>
>>>> They technically weren't sterile beforehand either.
>>>
>>> The containers they came in were near enough.
>>
>> Sterility (from a microbiological view)is like virginity it either is
>> or it isn't no in between.
>
> Wrong with new containers for those components.
>

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:34:08 -0700, Naomi wrote:

> You were right the first time. It's not the oil or the vinegar; it's
> the additives. Garlic is an often-named culprit but, as I understand
> it, anything that brings moisture (water) to the mix can be a problem.

If water is the problem, then the vinegar (which is 95% water) would bring
a lot to the table.

Ron Peterson wrote...
> On Oct 14, 10:18 pm, Jeanette Guire >
> wrote:
>
>>Neither olive oil nor vinnegar need to be refrigerated; yet when mixed (as
>>in home-made salad dressing), the recipes all ask for it to be refrigerated
>>(where it congeals to a gooey mess).
>
>
>>What is different about olive oil + vinnegar + a few spices & salt from a
>>microbial culture standpoint?
>
>
> The bacteria need to be in water to live and the oil provides the food
> for them to grow.

That sounds right. The vinegar is normally acidic enough to prevent
bacterial growth and the oil normally can't support bacteria, but
when the vinegar is diluted the pH increases enough to support
growth, and the vinegar contains lots of micronutrients. The spices
add even more nutrients.