Instead of complaining about someone else's contribution, why not contribute
something yourself. Where are all those "Authentic" Mexican recipe posts?
Does anyone know when the last time an "Authentic" Mexican recipe was
invented? Is it no longer an "Authentic" Mexican cuisine if someone
experiments with new ingredients or methods, even though they may have lived
in Mexico all their lives? What makes "Authentic" Mexican cuisine
"Authentic", as opposed to say a Mexican cooking with Munster Cheese rather
than Queso Criollo which is a pale yellow cheese, a specialty of the region
around Taxco, Guerrero, and is so similar to Munster that the two can easily
be used interchangeably. At Sanborn's in Mexico City, the colorfully tiled
restaurant where the famous dish, Enchiladas Suizas, was invented. "Suiza"
means Swiss, a tribute to the dish's use of cream and cheese." Before the
Spaniards introduced cows and goats, sources of meat and milk, the
inhabitants of what is now Mexico existed largely on a diet of fruit and
vegetables, fish and fowl, and occasional wild game. The arrival of
milk-producing animals, however, changed the diet of Mexico forever. Justo
Sierra, the turn-of-the century Mexican educator, said that "the grocer, not
the conquistador, is the real Spanish father of Mexican society", succinctly
summing up the tremendous importance of the dietary changes brought on by
Spanish colonization. What of the other countries coming into what is known
now as "Mexico" and their influences toward "Authentic" Mexican cuisine?
Alot of Texans living in what was then Mexico moved there from the
Northeastern US by way of European countries and adopted part of the then
"Authentic" Mexican cuisine and added their own unique tastes. This mixing
of foods now made new "Authentic" Mexican recipes because they were now
citizens of Mexico. I'm sure some immigrant Germans and Italians taught
their newly acquired Mexican wives how to make and cook German Kielbasa and
Italian Pepperoni sausage. Just as they may have learned to make Mexican
Chorizo. Whenever there is a convergence of different cultures new recipes
are born and they can then be called "Authentic" whatever.

Sonora Sopapillas

4 cups flour
1 1/4 tbsp salt
3 tbsp baking powder
3 tbsp sugar
2 tbsp shortening
milk
oil for frying
Powdered sugar (optional)
cinnamon (optional)
honey (optional)

Sift flour, salt, baking powder and sugar together.
Cut in shortening.
Add just enough milk to make a soft dough firm enough to roll out.
Place in a bowl and cover.
Allow the dough to rest 30 to 60 minutes.
On a lightly floured board Roll the dough out to 1/4 inch thick cut in
diamond-shaped pieces.
Heat one-inch of oil in a frying pan to approximately 380° F.
Add a few pieces at a time.
Turn at once so they will puff evenly on both sides; then turn back to brown
on both sides.
Drain on a paper towel.
Sprinkle with powdered sugar or a combination of cinnamon-powdered sugar
mixture.
Serve with honey or plain.
Makes: 50 to 60 sopapillas

http://www.mexgrocer.com/501-sopaipillas-sonora.html



--
Old Magic 1

"Dimitri" > wrote in message
m...

"Old Magic1" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Dimitri" > wrote in message
> m...
>
> "Old Magic1" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Instead of complaining about someone else's contribution, why not
>> contribute
>> something yourself. Where are all those "Authentic" Mexican recipe posts?
>
> Go to google and search the archives.
>
> Dimitri
>
> That's all you could come up with?
> --
> Old Magic 1

Since you're too damn lazy I'll repost from several years ago.

Evalan" > wrote in message
rthlink.net...
> I was surprised to find that cans of enchilada sauce contained no tomato
> sauce. Does anyone have a recipe for this sauce?

Ok here you go:

1. Go to the store and in the dried chile section usually n produce
purchase a bag of dried mild Anaheim chiles New Mexico chiles will also do
as long as they are marked mild.

snip

Although this does sound good, I was surprised you had to go back several
years to the google archives for something to post.
Nothing new you can share?
--
Old Magic 1

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:38:58 -0600, "Old Magic1"
> wrote:

>"Dimitri" > wrote in message
om...
>
>"Old Magic1" > wrote in message
...
>> Instead of complaining about someone else's contribution, why not
>> contribute
>> something yourself. Where are all those "Authentic" Mexican recipe posts?
>
>Go to google and search the archives.
>
>Dimitri
>
>That's all you could come up with?
> --
>Old Magic 1

Here's a quote from A1, posted on Aug 27, 2003, under the topic,
Tequila Chili Blanco:

"Finally, people are starting to post, even if some of it is negative.
I was beginning to think this newsgroup was dead or dieing [sic]. I'm
glad this 'AUTHENTIC' discussion got everyone stirred up and talking.
Now if we can just get more recipes."

BTW, his recipe for Tequila Chili Blanco looks amazingly like one of
OM1's. I'm having trouble getting over the coincidence of these two
*different* persons' attitudes and styles of posting. ;-)

David

"Old Magic1" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Dimitri" > wrote in message
> m...
>
> "Old Magic1" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "Dimitri" > wrote in message
>> m...
>>
>> "Old Magic1" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Instead of complaining about someone else's contribution, why not
>>> contribute
>>> something yourself. Where are all those "Authentic" Mexican recipe
>>> posts?
>>
>> Go to google and search the archives.
>>
>> Dimitri
>>
>> That's all you could come up with?
>> --
>> Old Magic 1
>
> Since you're too damn lazy I'll repost from several years ago.
>
> Evalan" > wrote in message
> rthlink.net...
>> I was surprised to find that cans of enchilada sauce contained no tomato
>> sauce. Does anyone have a recipe for this sauce?
>
> Ok here you go:
>
> 1. Go to the store and in the dried chile section usually n produce
> purchase a bag of dried mild Anaheim chiles New Mexico chiles will also do
> as long as they are marked mild.
>
> snip
>
> Although this does sound good, I was surprised you had to go back several
> years to the google archives for something to post.
> Nothing new you can share?
> --
> Old Magic 1

I try not being redundant as do many others who have been reading and
posting here for years. I still do not change the way I make enchiladas
Suisas.

Or the way to make salsa Verde from tomatillos.

Dimitri

"Old Magic1" > wrote in
:

> Although this does sound good, I was surprised you had to go back
> several years to the google archives for something to post.
> Nothing new you can share?
> --
> Old Magic 1
>
>

He shared his dislike of you with me...
plonk.

--
No Bread Crumbs were hurt in the making of this Meal.
Type 2 Diabetic 1AC 5.6mmol or 101mg/dl
Continuing to be Manitoban

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:32:27 GMT, David Wright
> wrote:


>BTW, his recipe for Tequila Chili Blanco looks amazingly like one of
>OM1's. I'm having trouble getting over the coincidence of these two
>*different* persons' attitudes and styles of posting. ;-)
>
>David

As I read further, the first several posts in the TCB thread are
amazingly similar to this one. See it here ...
http://tinyurl.com/4h32y

David

"David Wright" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:32:27 GMT, David Wright
> > wrote:
>
>
>>BTW, his recipe for Tequila Chili Blanco looks amazingly like one of
>>OM1's. I'm having trouble getting over the coincidence of these two
>>*different* persons' attitudes and styles of posting. ;-)
>>
>>David
>
> As I read further, the first several posts in the TCB thread are
> amazingly similar to this one. See it here ...
> http://tinyurl.com/4h32y
>
> David

Where is Victor when you need him?????

;-)

Dimitri

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:07:26 GMT, "Dimitri" >
wrote:


>Where is Victor when you need him?????
>
>;-)
>
>Dimitri

Austin ...... but shhhhhh!!!

Old Magic1 wrote:

> Is it no longer an "Authentic" Mexican cuisine if someone
> experiments with new ingredients or methods, even though
> they may have lived in Mexico all their lives?
> What makes "Authentic" Mexican cuisine "Authentic", as
> opposed to say a Mexican cooking with Munster Cheese rather
> than Queso Criollo which is a pale yellow cheese, a specialty
> of the region around Taxco, Guerrero, and is so similar to
> Munster that the two can easily be used interchangeably.

I was amused by the comparision between Munster Cheese and Queso
Criollo, as though both were not *European style" cheeses. The word
"criollo" suggests that the sort of person whom the cheese is named
after is a descendant of European ancestors, and tends to promote the
European culture, including dance, music, cuisine, fashion---and
cheese...

Queso Criollo would be understood to be a European-style cheese, by its
very name...

I wondered what Marcus Aurelius, the Roman emperor and philosopher
would have said about the sour-tasting yellow block known as cheese...

His predecessor died from eating too much swiss cheese, and Marcus
Aurelius himself ate so much cheese he got sick from it. But what would
he have *said* about cheese?

He would have said, "A thing is what it is, regardless of how I think
about it, or what I call it," as he munched away...

Then there are the several definitions of "authentic". One of
Merriam-Webster's definitions is "made or done the same way as an
original <authentic Mexican fare>". That sort of indicates that the
cooking of the food should be done with the same sort of pots and pans
and the same kind of oven as were used at some indeterminate point in
time, at some inexact place within the vicinity of Mexico...

But, I sort of like a different definition of "authentic". I ran across
a definition once that suggested that "authentic" meant
"unpretentious", not claiming that something is anything besides what
it really is...

Which gets right back to Marcus Aurelius pigging out on cheese. A thing
is what it is, regardless of what we think about it...

The essential nature of Mexican cuisine is that it is simple and
unpretentious---and we love to eat it, it satisfies our stomachs as it
satisfies our taste buds...

"Jim Lane" > wrote in message
...
Old Magic1 wrote:

> "Dimitri" > wrote in message
> m...
>
> "Old Magic1" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Instead of complaining about someone else's contribution, why not
>>contribute
>>something yourself. Where are all those "Authentic" Mexican recipe posts?
>
> Go to google and search the archives.
>
> Dimitri
>
> That's all you could come up with?
> --
> Old Magic 1
>
what? did that go over your head?


jim

I guess it did. Don't get your panties in a wad, it was just a tit for tat.
--
Old Magic 1

On 17 Mar 2005 20:05:26 -0800, "krusty kritter" >
wrote:


>But, I sort of like a different definition of "authentic". I ran across
>a definition once that suggested that "authentic" meant
>"unpretentious", not claiming that something is anything besides what
>it really is...

And that, to me, is a fine description of Doña Martha's cooking at
Rolly's fine web site: <http://www.rollybrook.com/kitchen.htm>

Local, fresh ingredients, or locally produced foods (such as
tortillas) will beat canned cream-of-something soup, Taco Bell
seasoning, and Velveeta anytime!

David

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:35:41 GMT, Paul Covey > wrote:

>David Wright wrote:
>> This is OT, I know, but I, for one, would appreciate it if you would
>> be willing to consider a paragraph break every now and then in your
>> longer posts.
>> Bottom posting and snipping would help also, but I'd settle for one of
>> three. :-)
>> David
>Thank you for the advice; I have mostly been a lurker and so am new to
>posting and etiquette.
>
>Hopefully I have done all three correctly here, though proper snipping
>will be the hardest, I assume. Future comments and advice are always
>welcome.
>
>Paul

I thank you, Paul, for taking this old fart's advice in the way it was
intended.

David

"Paul Covey" > wrote in message
...
>
> And thanks Charlie for your comment in the earlier thread when I
> panicked thinking I was being called a troll - I just noticed it.
> Paul

You are quite welcome sir. I am sure that if you ever make the decision to
become a troll, everyone will make sure you know it! ;-)

Charlie

Old Magic1 wrote:
> "Jim Lane" > wrote in message
> ...
> Old Magic1 wrote:
>
>
>>"Dimitri" > wrote in message
. com...
>>
>>"Old Magic1" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>>>Instead of complaining about someone else's contribution, why not
>>>contribute
>>>something yourself. Where are all those "Authentic" Mexican recipe posts?
>>
>>Go to google and search the archives.
>>
>>Dimitri
>>
>>That's all you could come up with?
>> --
>>Old Magic 1
>>
>
> what? did that go over your head?
>
>
> jim
>
> I guess it did. Don't get your panties in a wad, it was just a tit for tat.

You need to wad yours up and jam them in your computers communications
port and spare us your bs.


jim

"David Wright" > wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:18:18 -0600, "Old Magic1"
> wrote:

>Instead of complaining about someone else's contribution, why not
contribute
>something yourself. Where are all those "Authentic" Mexican recipe posts?

For shame. You made a direct quote about Mexican cheese without giving
credit to the author. Anyone can compare this part of your post:

>Before the Spaniards introduced cows and goats, sources of meat ...

with the original at:

<http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/recipes/puebla/kgqueso1.html>

Where did the rest of *your* essay come from, and where is your
"authentic" writing?

David

Why don't you comment on what was said, rather than where it came from? My
"Authentic" writing, as you put it, is not the issue, just as giving credit
where part of what I said is not the issue. The issue is, what is "Authentic
Mexican Cuisine" and at what point did it become "Authentic"?
--
Old Magic 1

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:06:40 -0600, "Old Magic1"
> wrote:


>Why don't you comment on what was said, rather than where it came from? My
>"Authentic" writing, as you put it, is not the issue,

it is for me

>just as giving credit where part of what I said is not the issue.

It certainly is for me.

>The issue is, what is "Authentic
>Mexican Cuisine" and at what point did it become "Authentic"?

Maybe it's an issue for you, but I like what krusty kritter wrote
earlier in this thread:

>But, I sort of like a different definition of "authentic". I ran across
>a definition once that suggested that "authentic" meant
>"unpretentious", not claiming that something is anything besides what
>it really is...

That says it for me. Your milage obviously varies.

Take a look at Rolly's site. You will have the opportunity to learn
something.

David

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:57:15 -0600, "Old Magic1"
> wrote:

>I have already taken a look at Rolly's site and it is great. In the future
>if you don't want to see my posts, just use the kill file, that's what it is
>there for. Have a nice trip.
>

I'd rather stick around to see what you do next. ;-)

David

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:57:15 -0600, "Old Magic1"
> wrote:

>--
>Old Magic 1
>"David Wright" > wrote in message
>news >On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:06:40 -0600, "Old Magic1"
> wrote:

>I have already taken a look at Rolly's site and it is great. In the future
>if you don't want to see my posts, just use the kill file, that's what it is
>there for. Have a nice trip.

Will you tell us whether or not you have any connection to A1?

David

Old Magic1 wrote:

> I admit I'm no expert, but I do enjoy Mexican foods even
> though they may not have the "Authentic" ingredients in
> the > particular dish I want to cook. Not everyone has a
> Mexican market close at hand. If they want to substitute an English
> cheese for a Mexican cheese when they make enchiladas,
> that doesn't mean the dish is no longer a Mexican based dish.
> This is not a purely academic NG for chefs, cook book writers, or >
historians to teach cooking. If these people are part of the
> NG and contribute their knowledge in a discussion, I think it
> is great, but it is also for the non-experts that already
> know how to cook good tasting Mexican food even if it is made
> in NY City.

New York City??? LOL. Reminds me of the Pace picante sauce
commercial...

Seriously, though, you're right. Everybody has a different knowledge
and experience, and if we can share the part of the puzzle that we
know, we can all enjoy Mexican cuisine, even if it has to be made with
seal blubber oil in Anchorage, Alaska, instead of "authentic" Mexican
olive oil from olive pressed on the slopes of the Sierra Madre.... ;-)

Well, maybe that's hyperbole. I did get some seal oil on my hands once,
and that stuff is far greasier than lard made from pig fat...

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:09:49 -0600, "Old Magic1"
> wrote:

>I did read some of the old archives. It seems anyone that doesn't agree with
>you is marked as trouble maker.

I'm sorry you missed my point.

>What makes you the expert
>spokesperson for all people that enjoy Mexican type foods.

I'm not, and don't claim to be.

>If they want to substitute an English
>cheese for a Mexican cheese when they make enchiladas, that doesn't mean the
>dish is no longer a Mexican based dish.

No big deal. Do you still feel that way about cream of something soup?

David

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:14:09 -0800, Jim Lane >
wrote:

>David Wright wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:22:30 GMT, David Wright
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Are you, or are you not, the same person as A1?
>>>
>>>David
>>
>>
>> Better still, how about just, yes or no?
>>
>> David
>
>
>Do you actually expect the truth?
>
>Not from his posting record, that is for sure. The rationalization he
>uses are essentially the same, a lot of the language, identical.
>
>
>jim

I'm giving him the chance, and I hope he will take it.

David

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:22:03 GMT, David Wright
> wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:14:09 -0800, Jim Lane >
>wrote:
>
>>David Wright wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:22:30 GMT, David Wright
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Are you, or are you not, the same person as A1?
>>>>
>>>>David
>>>
>>>
>>> Better still, how about just, yes or no?
>>>
>>> David
>>
>>
>>Do you actually expect the truth?
>>
>>Not from his posting record, that is for sure. The rationalization he
>>uses are essentially the same, a lot of the language, identical.
>>
>>
>>jim
>
>I'm giving him the chance, and I hope he will take it.
>
>David

We are waiting, OM1. Are you the same person as A1?

David

On 20 Mar 2005 10:18:16 -0800, krusty kritter wrote:

>> I think it is great, but it is also for the non-experts that already
>> know how to cook good tasting Mexican food even if it is made
>> in NY City.
>
> New York City??? LOL. Reminds me of the Pace picante sauce
> commercial...

I think that he who has been KF'ed isn't aware of the huge number
of Mexicans living in NYC. Virtually all supermarkets here have
large sections dedicated to Mexican foods. Which reminds me,
earlier today I bought a package of CHARRAS Tostada Chipotle. I
don't know how accurate their slogan is ("El Real Sabor Mexicano")
but it *was* imported from Mexico and I prefer it to other brands
I've previously tried.

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 09:31:21 -0600, "Old Magic1"
> wrote:

>We are waiting, OM1. Are you the same person as A1?
>
>David
>
>Now wouldn't that ruin a good mystery ;}
>
OK, I'll just consider you a troller and a spammer from now on.

David

David Wright wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2005 04:52:06 -0800, "krusty kritter" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>BillB wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I think that he who has been KF'ed isn't aware of the huge number
>>>of Mexicans living in NYC. Virtually all supermarkets here have
>>>large sections dedicated to Mexican foods. Which reminds me,
>>>earlier today I bought a package of CHARRAS Tostada Chipotle. I
>>>don't know how accurate their slogan is ("El Real Sabor Mexicano")
>>>but it *was* imported from Mexico and I prefer it to other brands
>>>I've previously tried.
>>
>>What are "charras"? I tried to look it up in my Spanish dictionary and
>>I found "charrada", which means, "a coarse thing, in bad taste, bad
>>breeding"...
>
>
> Sounds to me like the feminine of "charro," so I envision an elegant,
> slender, Dona on horseback, dressed in black, wearing a flat-brimmed
> hat and confidently holding her horse in check while looking defiantly
> into the eye of the viewer.
>
> Whew!
>
> I must excuse myself now. ;-)
>
> David

"Charra" is a peasant woman also "broad brimmed hat" and that last is
probably the point, tostadas resemble the brim of a hat.


jim

David Wright wrote:
> "krusty kritter" > wrote:

> >What are "charras"? I tried to look it up in my
> > Spanish dictionary and I found "charrada", which means,
> > "a coarse thing, in bad taste, bad breeding"...
>
> Sounds to me like the feminine of "charro," so I envision
> an elegant, slender, Dona on horseback, dressed in black,
> wearing a flat-brimmed hat and confidently holding her horse
> in check while looking defiantly into the eye of the viewer.
> Whew!
> I must excuse myself now. ;-)

I can't fault you in the least for imagining a romantic interlude with
a dark-eyed Spanish lady. It's certainly an appealing image...

It's also a stereotypical image and a bit bigoted, as I will explain...

My Spanish dictionary says that a "charro"
is a "coarse individual", "charra" is the feminine of "charro"
and that as an adjective it means "coarse", or "gaudy"...

I can remember Duncan Reynaldo as the Cisco Kid from from 1950's TV
shows, with his gaudy black attire and his gaudy saddle, contrasted
with the plainer Pancho, his sidekick, who in real life
was Leo Carillo, son or grandson of a Spanish "gente de raison" who
held a Spanish land grant in Ventura County, CA where I was raised...

The Spanish half century in California from 1770 to 1821 is always
portrayed as a romantic period in novels and movies. But I was going
through the museum at the old Spanish presidio in Santa Barbara, CA and
I was looking at a painting of a scene that depicted Spanish colonists
in California encountering a group of American explorers, mountain men,
such as Kit Carson or Jim Bridger. The plaque next to the painting
explained that the Spaniards in California were always depicted as cool
and calm and coiffed and manicured, while Americans were always
depicted as ruffled and dirty looking...

I remembered that plaque when I was looking at a diorama in the Museum
of Natural History in Los Angeles. It depicted the Bear Flag Revolt
that occurred before the War with Mexico actually began...

Again, the Spaniards are depicted as well-dressed and well-groomed,
while the Americans raising the Bear Flag in Monterey are depicted as
ruffians. One of the Americans is wearing long underwear and is
pulling up his pants, while the Spaniards are all in decorous poses...

David Wright wrote:
> "krusty kritter" > wrote:

> >What are "charras"? I tried to look it up in my
> > Spanish dictionary and I found "charrada", which means,
> > "a coarse thing, in bad taste, bad breeding"...
>
> Sounds to me like the feminine of "charro," so I envision
> an elegant, slender, Dona on horseback, dressed in black,
> wearing a flat-brimmed hat and confidently holding her horse
> in check while looking defiantly into the eye of the viewer.
> Whew!
> I must excuse myself now. ;-)

I can't fault you in the least for imagining a romantic interlude with
a dark-eyed Spanish lady. It's certainly an appealing image...

It's also a stereotypical image and a bit bigoted, as I will explain...

My Spanish dictionary says that a "charro"
is a "coarse individual", "charra" is the feminine of "charro"
and that as an adjective it means "coarse", or "gaudy"...

I can remember Duncan Reynaldo as the Cisco Kid from from 1950's TV
shows, with his gaudy black attire and his gaudy saddle, contrasted
with the plainer Pancho, his sidekick, who in real life
was Leo Carillo, son or grandson of a Spanish "gente de raison" who
held a Spanish land grant in Ventura County, CA where I was raised...

The Spanish half century in California from 1770 to 1821 is always
portrayed as a romantic period in novels and movies. But I was going
through the museum at the old Spanish presidio in Santa Barbara, CA and
I was looking at a painting of a scene that depicted Spanish colonists
in California encountering a group of American explorers, mountain men,
such as Kit Carson or Jim Bridger. The plaque next to the painting
explained that the Spaniards in California were always depicted as cool
and calm and coiffed and manicured, while Americans were always
depicted as ruffled and dirty looking...

I remembered that plaque when I was looking at a diorama in the Museum
of Natural History in Los Angeles. It depicted the Bear Flag Revolt
that occurred before the War with Mexico actually began...

Again, the Spaniards are depicted as well-dressed and well-groomed,
while the Americans raising the Bear Flag in Monterey are depicted as
ruffians. One of the Americans is wearing long underwear and is
pulling up his pants, while the Spaniards are all in decorous poses...

On 21 Mar 2005 04:52:06 -0800, krusty kritter wrote:

> What are "charras"? I tried to look it up in my Spanish dictionary and
> I found "charrada", which means, "a coarse thing, in bad taste, bad
> breeding"...

It's the brand name, and on the package is an email address and a
website, which are and www.charras.com. I knew
that David's reply was fairly on the mark before looking up charras
in my larger Sp. dictionary, since the package has a horseman
wearing a traditional widebrimmed hat, on horseback (horse rearing
back on hind legs). According to my dictionary which has charada
(charade) but strangely, no entry for your charrada:

charro¹ -rra adj
1. (en Méx) (tradiciones/musica) of/relating to the charro²
2. (AmL fam) (de mal gusto) gaudy, garish
3. (Méx) (politico) corrupt; (sindicato) pro-management (colloq)
4. (Méx fam) (torpe) dim; es bien charra para multiplicar "she's
useless at multiplication"
5. (Esp fam) (de Salamanca) of/from Salamanca

charro² -rra m,f
1. (en Méx) (jinete) (m) horseman, cowboy; horsewoman, cowgirl
2. (Méx) (Pol) traitor, turncoat
3. (Méx fam) (persona torpe) dimwit (colloq)
4. (Esp fam) (salmantino) person from Salamanca

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:54:39 GMT, David Wright wrote:

> Sounds to me like the feminine of "charro," so I envision an elegant,
> slender, Dona on horseback, dressed in black, wearing a flat-brimmed
> hat and confidently holding her horse in check while looking defiantly
> into the eye of the viewer.

Essentially correct, the picture on the package is only off in
some minor details. Caballero on horseback dressing in light tan
suit, w/short red tie, both horse and rider facing to the right.

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:54:39 GMT, David Wright wrote:

> Sounds to me like the feminine of "charro," so I envision an elegant,
> slender, Dona on horseback, dressed in black, wearing a flat-brimmed
> hat and confidently holding her horse in check while looking defiantly
> into the eye of the viewer.

Essentially correct, the picture on the package is only off in
some minor details. Caballero on horseback dressing in light tan
suit, w/short red tie, both horse and rider facing to the right.

Charles Gifford wrote:


> The "Mexican-American" population and culture did not have
> any strong presence until well into the 20th century.

Some of the early Spanish settlers continued to hold their land, for
instance, the Arnaz family still owns Rancho Arnaz near Ventura.
They've owned that land since 1842. But many Mexican or Spanish land
grant holders lost their lands after the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo
ceded land claimed by Mexico to the United States. When the Yankee
lawyers in San Francisco decided to grab the Mexican land grants (there
were about 1000 grants) they published legal notices in English
language newspapers, telling the grant holders to come to
San Francisco to "prove" their land titles. Of course, most didn't know
what was happening in California. The same thing happened in New
Mexico. Mexicans became depised 2nd class citizens in a country where
they had once been dominant over the Native Americans. The latter were
being hunted down and exterminated. There was a bounty on Native
American's literal heads in Northern California. So the American
presence grew. But post-revolutionary political instability
continued in Mexico. With Pancho Villa's revolution, Mexicans fled
northern Mexico into Arizona and New Mexico. Some of the people I
talked to said that it took their grandparents two years to walk from
Chihuahua or Sonora to Los Angeles. In the 1970's, with the declining
prices of petroleum, an economic depression began in Mexico, resulting
in capital flight to numbered Swiss bank accounts, and again, large
numbers of Mexicans fled to El Norte. It had been extimated that 20% of
the population left Mexico for greener pastures. Most became
agricultural workers. That's why the town I live in is about 70%
latino. They pick the oranges and pack them in crates to be shipped to
the cities...

Charles Gifford wrote:


> The "Mexican-American" population and culture did not have
> any strong presence until well into the 20th century.

Some of the early Spanish settlers continued to hold their land, for
instance, the Arnaz family still owns Rancho Arnaz near Ventura.
They've owned that land since 1842. But many Mexican or Spanish land
grant holders lost their lands after the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo
ceded land claimed by Mexico to the United States. When the Yankee
lawyers in San Francisco decided to grab the Mexican land grants (there
were about 1000 grants) they published legal notices in English
language newspapers, telling the grant holders to come to
San Francisco to "prove" their land titles. Of course, most didn't know
what was happening in California. The same thing happened in New
Mexico. Mexicans became depised 2nd class citizens in a country where
they had once been dominant over the Native Americans. The latter were
being hunted down and exterminated. There was a bounty on Native
American's literal heads in Northern California. So the American
presence grew. But post-revolutionary political instability
continued in Mexico. With Pancho Villa's revolution, Mexicans fled
northern Mexico into Arizona and New Mexico. Some of the people I
talked to said that it took their grandparents two years to walk from
Chihuahua or Sonora to Los Angeles. In the 1970's, with the declining
prices of petroleum, an economic depression began in Mexico, resulting
in capital flight to numbered Swiss bank accounts, and again, large
numbers of Mexicans fled to El Norte. It had been extimated that 20% of
the population left Mexico for greener pastures. Most became
agricultural workers. That's why the town I live in is about 70%
latino. They pick the oranges and pack them in crates to be shipped to
the cities...

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:46:36 GMT, "Charles Gifford"
> wrote:

>Yes, many of them did, if not most of them. The Spanish in California
>pledged their allegance to Mexico rather than becoming subserviant to the
>Mexican government.

In context, I assume you meant that they pledged their allegiance to
Spain rather than Mexico.

>Most "Mexican" government officials in California were
>actually Spanish. I have a dear friend who bristles when called a Mexican.
>She is of Spanish ancestory. Her family has been in California since the
>18th century. She speaks the Spanish of Aragon.

As do many people I knew in New Mexico.

My memories of living in southern California in the mid-'60s include
wandering around on back roads in southern Riverside County and in San
Diego County, being amazed that I could find relatively undisturbed
hills with live oaks and other native vegetation, not ripped apart by
developers. I was told later those were spots of land that were still
part of Spanish land grants.

><SNIP>

>1. Cal-Mex cooking is first and most importantly based on Spanish-California
>(aka Rancho) cooking.

Olives, for example? Emphasis on beef?

>2. Unlike New Mex-Mex, Mexican, and Tex-Mex (and to an even smaller amount
>AZ-Mex) Cal-Mex was never modified by any indigenous Indian foods.

That makes sense to me.

>4. Cal-Mex food as we know it today is based on Rancho cooking with the
>addition of Mexican foods and cooking coming into California with the
>migrant workers in the 20th century.
>
>Charlie

Thanks, Charlie. That's a keeper.

David

On 21 Mar 2005 15:00:20 -0800, "krusty kritter" >
wrote:

>
>David Wright wrote:
>> "krusty kritter" > wrote:
>
>> >What are "charras"? I tried to look it up in my
>> > Spanish dictionary and I found "charrada", which means,
>> > "a coarse thing, in bad taste, bad breeding"...
>>
>> Sounds to me like the feminine of "charro," so I envision
>> an elegant, slender, Dona on horseback, dressed in black,
>> wearing a flat-brimmed hat and confidently holding her horse
>> in check while looking defiantly into the eye of the viewer.
>> Whew!
>> I must excuse myself now. ;-)
>
>I can't fault you in the least for imagining a romantic interlude with
>a dark-eyed Spanish lady. It's certainly an appealing image...
>
>It's also a stereotypical image and a bit bigoted, as I will explain...
>
>My Spanish dictionary says that a "charro"
>is a "coarse individual", "charra" is the feminine of "charro"
>and that as an adjective it means "coarse", or "gaudy"...
>
Here's another way of looking at these words ...

http://tinyurl.com/5coyt

David

"David Wright" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:46:36 GMT, "Charles Gifford"
> > wrote:
>
> >Yes, many of them did, if not most of them. The Spanish in California
> >pledged their allegance to Mexico rather than becoming subserviant to the
> >Mexican government.
>
> In context, I assume you meant that they pledged their allegiance to
> Spain rather than Mexico.

It is hard to say the exact meaning! I meant that they did pledge their
allegiance to Mexico in fact but to Spain in their hearts. Many of the
Spanish gave help the U.S. eventually, but later regreted it. I think they
were more endeared with the California Republic idea than the U.S., but that
is only my opinion. A similar thing happened in Texas I think.

> >Most "Mexican" government officials in California were
> >actually Spanish. I have a dear friend who bristles when called a
Mexican.
> >She is of Spanish ancestory. Her family has been in California since the
> >18th century. She speaks the Spanish of Aragon.
>
> As do many people I knew in New Mexico.

Yes. It is amazing that so few people understand that.

> My memories of living in southern California in the mid-'60s include
> wandering around on back roads in southern Riverside County and in San
> Diego County, being amazed that I could find relatively undisturbed
> hills with live oaks and other native vegetation, not ripped apart by
> developers. I was told later those were spots of land that were still
> part of Spanish land grants.

There are still a few areas like that but not many now.

> ><SNIP>
>
> >1. Cal-Mex cooking is first and most importantly based on
Spanish-California
> >(aka Rancho) cooking.
>
> Olives, for example? Emphasis on beef?

Indeed. One popular survivor is Santa Maria BBQ. Some say it is not "real"
BBQ. Actually it is closer to the probable original Barbacoa than Southern
Style Q's. Santa Maria BBQ is California Rancho cooking at it's best! With a
crusty loaf of bread and a fine California wine to go with it.

> >2. Unlike New Mex-Mex, Mexican, and Tex-Mex (and to an even smaller
amount
> >AZ-Mex) Cal-Mex was never modified by any indigenous Indian foods.
>
> That makes sense to me.
>
> >4. Cal-Mex food as we know it today is based on Rancho cooking with the
> >addition of Mexican foods and cooking coming into California with the
> >migrant workers in the 20th century.
> >
> >Charlie

I might add that there is a lot of shared Mexican influence in CA and AZ
because the migrant workers in these two states tended to come from the same
Mexican states (Sonora and Jalisco). I'm not sure about New Mexico, but
Texas certainly had workers from different Mexican states.

> Thanks, Charlie. That's a keeper.
>
> David

I'm glad it helps. I am not an expert by any means, but I have lived in San
Diego for a long time! My father's mother and father had a winter home here
when the population was about 25,000. I find California history to be very
interesting. Not to mention eating Rancho and Cal-Mex food all over Southern
and Central CA. which was a very difficult thing to have to do. <grin>

Charlie

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:32:54 GMT, "Charles Gifford"
> wrote:

>"David Wright" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:46:36 GMT, "Charles Gifford"
>> > wrote:

>> In context, I assume you meant that they pledged their allegiance to
>> Spain rather than Mexico.
>
>It is hard to say the exact meaning! I meant that they did pledge their
>allegiance to Mexico in fact but to Spain in their hearts.

I understand now.

> Many of the
>Spanish gave help the U.S. eventually, but later regreted it.

>I think they
>were more endeared with the California Republic idea than the U.S., but that
>is only my opinion.

Well, then the gold rush happened, but you and I had nothing to do
with that.

>A similar thing happened in Texas I think.

That pre-Alamo, land-settling thing, and the 1846, I think, "war."

The good thing is, political boundaries can't dictate cultural
preferences, including, especially, ones of food.
>
>> >Most "Mexican" government officials in California were
>> >actually Spanish. I have a dear friend who bristles when called a
>Mexican.
>> >She is of Spanish ancestory. Her family has been in California since the
>> >18th century. She speaks the Spanish of Aragon.
>>
>> As do many people I knew in New Mexico.
>
>Yes. It is amazing that so few people understand that.

I had a few friends, artists, who knew English better than they did
the Spanish of Santa Fe. Their ancestors were the ones who had been
sent up to the High Road between Santa Fe and Taos to build villages
to protect the capital from the Comanches. But they weren't allowed to
have guns, so they traded with the Comanches for a few muskets so they
could defend themselves.

That's a true story, but whether it's a fact, I don't know. ;-)

>One popular survivor is Santa Maria BBQ. Some say it is not "real"
>BBQ. Actually it is closer to the probable original Barbacoa than Southern
>Style Q's. Santa Maria BBQ is California Rancho cooking at it's best! With a
>crusty loaf of bread and a fine California wine to go with it.

If it's a slab of ribs or a butterflied roast tossed onto a length of
expanded metal or a grill over some hot coals, I'm with you, Charlie!


>I might add that there is a lot of shared Mexican influence in CA and AZ
>because the migrant workers in these two states tended to come from the same
>Mexican states (Sonora and Jalisco). I'm not sure about New Mexico, but
>Texas certainly had workers from different Mexican states.
>
>> Thanks, Charlie. That's a keeper.
>>
>> David
>
>I'm glad it helps. I am not an expert by any means, but I have lived in San
>Diego for a long time! My father's mother and father had a winter home here
>when the population was about 25,000.

I think it was late '40s when my first wife's parents lived there and
would go out to the country to Mission Valley to buy fresh produce
from the farms. :-)

David

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:18:18 -0600, "Old Magic1"
> wrote:

>Instead of complaining about someone else's contribution, why not contribute
>something yourself.

As it turns out, many of us did, and as I write this it will be the
fifty-first in this thread.

One of the great pleasures in newsgroups, IMO, is to see how the
topics drift under one subject.

I hope OM1 will come back and will join in the quiet and interesting
discussion that his original post led to, eventually.

David

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:56:28 GMT, David Wright wrote:

> My memories of living in southern California in the mid-'60s include
> wandering around on back roads in southern Riverside County and in San
> Diego County, being amazed that I could find relatively undisturbed
> hills with live oaks and other native vegetation, not ripped apart by
> developers. I was told later those were spots of land that were still
> part of Spanish land grants.

This may have little to do with what you were discussing, but it
reminded me of a short review of a semi-historical novel I read some
time last year (the review that is, I've never seen the novel). I
hope that somewhere in the novel there's at least some discussion of
Mexican/Californian food, circa the 18xx's. I wonder if anyone here
is familiar with the novel or knows of it?


> Ramona - The Heart and Conscience of Early California,
> by Helen Hunt Jackson. Copyright 1884.

> "The impact of [Jackson's] work makes it clear that a single person...can
> change the lives of millions. The defiant spirit that produced Ramona
> is the answer to complacency, to defeat, to injustice." (Michael Dorris,
> from the introduction to the Signet Classics edition of Ramona)

> Termed the Uncle Tom's Cabin of the southwestern Indians and the first
> protest novel of California, Ramona is the story of 3 cultures - Indian,
> Mexican, and Anglo - locked in combat. The upheaval and injustice are
> humanized through the romance of a beautiful half-Indian orphan who
> grow up as the ward of Señora Moreno in privileged surroundings, then
> falls in love with an Indian and joins him in a life of poverty and
> tragedy. The Ramona Pageant in Hemet, California, based on this romance,
> has played each year since 1923, reenacting the transition period between
> Mexican traditions and the new U.S. and state governments.

"David Wright" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:32:54 GMT, "Charles Gifford"
> wrote:

<snips>

> I had a few friends, artists, who knew English better than they did
> the Spanish of Santa Fe. Their ancestors were the ones who had been
> sent up to the High Road between Santa Fe and Taos to build villages
> to protect the capital from the Comanches. But they weren't allowed to
> have guns, so they traded with the Comanches for a few muskets so they
> could defend themselves.
>
> That's a true story, but whether it's a fact, I don't know. ;-)

Great story! Thank you for the insight and information.!

> >One popular survivor is Santa Maria BBQ. Some say it is not "real"
> >BBQ. Actually it is closer to the probable original Barbacoa than
Southern
> >Style Q's. Santa Maria BBQ is California Rancho cooking at it's best!
With a
> >crusty loaf of bread and a fine California wine to go with it.
>
> If it's a slab of ribs or a butterflied roast tossed onto a length of
> expanded metal or a grill over some hot coals, I'm with you, Charlie!

That is excellent too! But Santa Maria BBQ uses (nowadays anyhow) a large
chunk of tri-tip that is suspended on a frame over a red oak fire. In my
statement I was referring to (one theory) a Carribean origin of BBQ where
meat was cooked in exactly the same way - wood frame over a fire - dating to
pre-Columbian times.

>
> I think it was late '40s when my first wife's parents lived there and
> would go out to the country to Mission Valley to buy fresh produce
> from the farms. :-)
>
> David

Sure has changed hasn't it. Mission Valley was all farms and dairies! Now it
is filled from edge to edge with people who are, every few years, surprised
to find they are living or operating a business in a flood plain.

Charlie

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 03:25:01 GMT, "Charles Gifford"
> wrote:

>"David Wright" > wrote in message
.. .

>> If it's a slab of ribs or a butterflied roast tossed onto a length of
>> expanded metal or a grill over some hot coals, I'm with you, Charlie!
>
>That is excellent too! But Santa Maria BBQ uses (nowadays anyhow) a large
>chunk of tri-tip that is suspended on a frame over a red oak fire. In my
>statement I was referring to (one theory) a Carribean origin of BBQ where
>meat was cooked in exactly the same way - wood frame over a fire - dating to
>pre-Columbian times.

Yes, this reminds me of a Jacques Pepin program when he suspended a
leg of lamb, I think it was, in front of a fireplace, and let it twist
slowly, slowly while it roasted.

I have lusted after that way of cooking ever since, but haven't had
the opportunity to do it that way myself.

David