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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Windcat
 
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Default Wok or Gwak?

OK, what is the correct pronunciation of guacamole?
All my life around El Paso, it was WOKamole, (or Huakamole)
but now it seems everybody pronounces it GWAKamole.
Webster's dictionary shows GWAK but what do those gringos know.
  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
krusty kritter
 
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Windcat wrote:

OK, what is the correct pronunciation of guacamole

Etymology: Mexican Spanish, from Nahuatl AhuacamOlli, from Ahuacatl
avocado + mOlli sauce

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Jay P Francis
 
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gua gets a 'hwa' sound so neither is correct. To my ear wah' kamo' lay sounds
better than gwa' kamo' lay.
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
pulido
 
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"Windcat" > schreef in bericht
om...
> OK, what is the correct pronunciation of guacamole?
> All my life around El Paso, it was WOKamole, (or Huakamole)
> but now it seems everybody pronounces it GWAKamole.
> Webster's dictionary shows GWAK but what do those gringos know.


try
wuakamole

jl from mexico city


  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dimitri
 
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"Windcat" > wrote in message
om...
> OK, what is the correct pronunciation of guacamole?
> All my life around El Paso, it was WOKamole, (or Huakamole)
> but now it seems everybody pronounces it GWAKamole.
> Webster's dictionary shows GWAK but what do those gringos know.


1. Go he

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...mole&x=20&y=18

2. Click on the little speaker and then listen

3. It is pretty close - remember in Spanish the pronunciation (sound) of
each letter is for the most part consistent so the G in Guacamole is
pronounced the same as the G in Gringo.

Dimitri




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Dimitri
 
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Default


"Windcat" > wrote in message
om...
> OK, what is the correct pronunciation of guacamole?
> All my life around El Paso, it was WOKamole, (or Huakamole)
> but now it seems everybody pronounces it GWAKamole.
> Webster's dictionary shows GWAK but what do those gringos know.


1. Go he

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...mole&x=20&y=18

2. Click on the little speaker and then listen

3. It is pretty close - remember in Spanish the pronunciation (sound) of
each letter is for the most part consistent so the G in Guacamole is
pronounced the same as the G in Gringo.

Dimitri


  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
krusty kritter
 
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Dimitri suggested:

>remember in Spanish the pronunciation (sound) of each letter

is for the most part consistent so the G in Guacamole is
pronounced the same as the G in Gringo.

Sorry, Dimitri, but that site you suggested has a "gringo" trying to
*guess*
how to pronounce something that should be pronounced with a *glottal
stop*
at the very beginning of the word...

The easiest way for those who just don't "do" glottal stops is to
pronounce
"guacamole" as a breathless-sounding "wha-ca-mow-lay"...

The modern Spanish word "guacamole" has its roots in the Nahuatl
word "ahuacatl", meaning "testicle" for its resemblance to that part of
the
human anatomy...

Since the ancient Mexicans who invented the language had no Latin
alphabet, they couldn't write their language down, so later
lexicographers
who did write down the words they heard from the Nahuatl speakers had
to
invent a form of transliteration for sounds which didn't necessarily
correspond
to sounds used in the Spanish or English language...

The letter "H" in Nahuatl transcriptions corresponds to the *glottal
stop* represented
by the apostrophe in Native American languages, such as Dine Bizaad,
the language
spoken by the so-called "Navajo Indians" or Arizona and New Mexico...

I studied Dine Bizaad, a language related to Nahuatl, for a while...

I remember vividly standing on the cold, windy rim of "Canyon de
Chelly" in Arizona,
reading a transliterated phrase in Dine Bizaad, and asking the "Navajo"
tour guide what
the apostrophes stood for. Being somewhat ignorant of his own language,
the man responded
that the apostrophes were like dashes between syllables...

He was wrong, they were glottal stops, where the glottis momentarily
stops the flow of air
through the vocal cords. This makes the speakers of Dine Bizaad sound
like they are running
out of breath as they speak...

The common Dine Bizaad word "ahe'ee" (thank you) comes out sounding
*almost* like "uh-heh-hay", with the glottal stop sounding like an
"H"...

The same rule applies to the letter "H" in Nahuatl. It's a glottal
stop...
http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahu...#pronunciation

  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dimitri
 
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"krusty kritter" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Dimitri suggested:


<snip>

> I studied Dine Bizaad, a language related to Nahuatl, for a while...


<snip>

Cool

I lived at

Tlacoquemecal 330,
Colonia Del Valle
Mexico 12 DF.

For many years.......

I can even pronounce xola another street nearby and I can also pronounce the
2 volacnos (well I might add.

I studied for an intensive year at :
El Instituto Mexicano, NorteAmericano De relationes Culturales cerca de la
esquina de Hamborgo Y Genoa en el Districto Federal.

Not to mention the fact that for the most part I spoke no English.

:-)

Dimitri


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Dimitri
 
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Default


"krusty kritter" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Dimitri suggested:


<snip>

> I studied Dine Bizaad, a language related to Nahuatl, for a while...


<snip>

Cool

I lived at

Tlacoquemecal 330,
Colonia Del Valle
Mexico 12 DF.

For many years.......

I can even pronounce xola another street nearby and I can also pronounce the
2 volacnos (well I might add.

I studied for an intensive year at :
El Instituto Mexicano, NorteAmericano De relationes Culturales cerca de la
esquina de Hamborgo Y Genoa en el Districto Federal.

Not to mention the fact that for the most part I spoke no English.

:-)

Dimitri


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krusty kritter
 
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I lived at Tlacoquemecal 330, Colonia Del Valle Mexico 12 DF.

Hehe. "Tlacoquemecal" is far easier to read than it is to say. Could I
just say "taco-chemical" to a taxi driver, instead?

Can you pronounce the Nahuatl word "tlachtli"? (That was the name of
the Aztec ball game where the losing team would be sacrificed to the
gods.)

www.members.aol.com/cabrakan/tlachtli.wav

The Nahuatl speaker pronounces it very precisely, but I can't make it
sound good, my tongue sticks to the inside of my mouth...



  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
krusty kritter
 
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I lived at Tlacoquemecal 330, Colonia Del Valle Mexico 12 DF.

Hehe. "Tlacoquemecal" is far easier to read than it is to say. Could I
just say "taco-chemical" to a taxi driver, instead?

Can you pronounce the Nahuatl word "tlachtli"? (That was the name of
the Aztec ball game where the losing team would be sacrificed to the
gods.)

www.members.aol.com/cabrakan/tlachtli.wav

The Nahuatl speaker pronounces it very precisely, but I can't make it
sound good, my tongue sticks to the inside of my mouth...

  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Art Sackett
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Windcat > wrote:
> OK, what is the correct pronunciation of guacamole?


If you want to be haughty, ask an academician. If you want to be
unsure, ask two academicians. If you want to be confused, ask three or
more academicians. If you want to witness a long and pointless debate,
ask three or more academicians at the same table.

If you want to order it in a restaurant, pronounce it however it sounds
right to you -- your server will get the right idea.

If you want to sell it to a restaurant, wait until the buyer says it
first, and use his pronunciation. If he's a culture nazi, he'll think
you're one of his kind and your guac' will taste better to him. If he's
one who detests haughty people, he'll think you're one of his kind and
your guac' will taste better to him. If he's just a normal guy, he
won't care how you pronounce it as long as it tastes good.

If you just want to talk to your friends about it, pronounce it however
you're accustomed to pronouncing it. If they call attention to your
strange pronunciation just tell 'em that that the stuff in the bowl is
tastier and more filling going into their mouths than is the name for
it coming out of their mouths.

:-)

--
Art Sackett,
Patron Saint of Drunken Fornication
  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Art Sackett
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Windcat > wrote:
> OK, what is the correct pronunciation of guacamole?


If you want to be haughty, ask an academician. If you want to be
unsure, ask two academicians. If you want to be confused, ask three or
more academicians. If you want to witness a long and pointless debate,
ask three or more academicians at the same table.

If you want to order it in a restaurant, pronounce it however it sounds
right to you -- your server will get the right idea.

If you want to sell it to a restaurant, wait until the buyer says it
first, and use his pronunciation. If he's a culture nazi, he'll think
you're one of his kind and your guac' will taste better to him. If he's
one who detests haughty people, he'll think you're one of his kind and
your guac' will taste better to him. If he's just a normal guy, he
won't care how you pronounce it as long as it tastes good.

If you just want to talk to your friends about it, pronounce it however
you're accustomed to pronouncing it. If they call attention to your
strange pronunciation just tell 'em that that the stuff in the bowl is
tastier and more filling going into their mouths than is the name for
it coming out of their mouths.

:-)

--
Art Sackett,
Patron Saint of Drunken Fornication
  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dimitri
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"krusty kritter" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I lived at Tlacoquemecal 330, Colonia Del Valle Mexico 12 DF.
>
> Hehe. "Tlacoquemecal" is far easier to read than it is to say. Could I
> just say "taco-chemical" to a taxi driver, instead?


Actually being an indian word it rhymed with popocatepatl the tough one is
the sleeping lady Iztaccihuatl.


>
> Can you pronounce the Nahuatl word "tlachtli"? (That was the name of
> the Aztec ball game where the losing team would be sacrificed to the
> gods.)
>
> www.members.aol.com/cabrakan/tlachtli.wav
>
> The Nahuatl speaker pronounces it very precisely, but I can't make it
> sound good, my tongue sticks to the inside of my mouth...


It will for a very long time. By the same token Mexicans have problems with
certain English words.

I hear Peksi for Pepsi
I hear Esquert for Squirt.



  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dimitri
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"krusty kritter" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I lived at Tlacoquemecal 330, Colonia Del Valle Mexico 12 DF.
>
> Hehe. "Tlacoquemecal" is far easier to read than it is to say. Could I
> just say "taco-chemical" to a taxi driver, instead?


Actually being an indian word it rhymed with popocatepatl the tough one is
the sleeping lady Iztaccihuatl.


>
> Can you pronounce the Nahuatl word "tlachtli"? (That was the name of
> the Aztec ball game where the losing team would be sacrificed to the
> gods.)
>
> www.members.aol.com/cabrakan/tlachtli.wav
>
> The Nahuatl speaker pronounces it very precisely, but I can't make it
> sound good, my tongue sticks to the inside of my mouth...


It will for a very long time. By the same token Mexicans have problems with
certain English words.

I hear Peksi for Pepsi
I hear Esquert for Squirt.





  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Dy
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"krusty kritter" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Dimitri suggested:
>
>>remember in Spanish the pronunciation (sound) of each letter

> is for the most part consistent so the G in Guacamole is
> pronounced the same as the G in Gringo.
>
> Sorry, Dimitri, but that site you suggested has a "gringo" trying to
> *guess*
> how to pronounce something that should be pronounced with a *glottal
> stop*
> at the very beginning of the word...
>
> The easiest way for those who just don't "do" glottal stops is to
> pronounce
> "guacamole" as a breathless-sounding "wha-ca-mow-lay"...
>
> The modern Spanish word "guacamole" has its roots in the Nahuatl
> word "ahuacatl", meaning "testicle" for its resemblance to that part of
> the
> human anatomy...
>
> Since the ancient Mexicans who invented the language had no Latin
> alphabet, they couldn't write their language down, so later
> lexicographers
> who did write down the words they heard from the Nahuatl speakers had
> to
> invent a form of transliteration for sounds which didn't necessarily
> correspond
> to sounds used in the Spanish or English language...
>
> The letter "H" in Nahuatl transcriptions corresponds to the *glottal
> stop* represented
> by the apostrophe in Native American languages, such as Dine Bizaad,
> the language
> spoken by the so-called "Navajo Indians" or Arizona and New Mexico...
>
> I studied Dine Bizaad, a language related to Nahuatl, for a while...
>
> I remember vividly standing on the cold, windy rim of "Canyon de
> Chelly" in Arizona,
> reading a transliterated phrase in Dine Bizaad, and asking the "Navajo"
> tour guide what
> the apostrophes stood for. Being somewhat ignorant of his own language,
> the man responded
> that the apostrophes were like dashes between syllables...
>
> He was wrong, they were glottal stops, where the glottis momentarily
> stops the flow of air
> through the vocal cords. This makes the speakers of Dine Bizaad sound
> like they are running
> out of breath as they speak...
>
> The common Dine Bizaad word "ahe'ee" (thank you) comes out sounding
> *almost* like "uh-heh-hay", with the glottal stop sounding like an
> "H"...
>
> The same rule applies to the letter "H" in Nahuatl. It's a glottal
> stop...
> http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahu...#pronunciation



That may be so, but are you saying that in Mexican *Spanish*, "guacamole"
starts with a glottal stop?

Peter


  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Dy
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"krusty kritter" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Dimitri suggested:
>
>>remember in Spanish the pronunciation (sound) of each letter

> is for the most part consistent so the G in Guacamole is
> pronounced the same as the G in Gringo.
>
> Sorry, Dimitri, but that site you suggested has a "gringo" trying to
> *guess*
> how to pronounce something that should be pronounced with a *glottal
> stop*
> at the very beginning of the word...
>
> The easiest way for those who just don't "do" glottal stops is to
> pronounce
> "guacamole" as a breathless-sounding "wha-ca-mow-lay"...
>
> The modern Spanish word "guacamole" has its roots in the Nahuatl
> word "ahuacatl", meaning "testicle" for its resemblance to that part of
> the
> human anatomy...
>
> Since the ancient Mexicans who invented the language had no Latin
> alphabet, they couldn't write their language down, so later
> lexicographers
> who did write down the words they heard from the Nahuatl speakers had
> to
> invent a form of transliteration for sounds which didn't necessarily
> correspond
> to sounds used in the Spanish or English language...
>
> The letter "H" in Nahuatl transcriptions corresponds to the *glottal
> stop* represented
> by the apostrophe in Native American languages, such as Dine Bizaad,
> the language
> spoken by the so-called "Navajo Indians" or Arizona and New Mexico...
>
> I studied Dine Bizaad, a language related to Nahuatl, for a while...
>
> I remember vividly standing on the cold, windy rim of "Canyon de
> Chelly" in Arizona,
> reading a transliterated phrase in Dine Bizaad, and asking the "Navajo"
> tour guide what
> the apostrophes stood for. Being somewhat ignorant of his own language,
> the man responded
> that the apostrophes were like dashes between syllables...
>
> He was wrong, they were glottal stops, where the glottis momentarily
> stops the flow of air
> through the vocal cords. This makes the speakers of Dine Bizaad sound
> like they are running
> out of breath as they speak...
>
> The common Dine Bizaad word "ahe'ee" (thank you) comes out sounding
> *almost* like "uh-heh-hay", with the glottal stop sounding like an
> "H"...
>
> The same rule applies to the letter "H" in Nahuatl. It's a glottal
> stop...
> http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahu...#pronunciation



That may be so, but are you saying that in Mexican *Spanish*, "guacamole"
starts with a glottal stop?

Peter


  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ernie
 
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Default

Well I made my first tamales. They were turkey and turned
out good. I put tomatillo sauce in them. I learned a lot about
tamale making. My daughter came over and spread the masa
on the husks. I have a vacuum packer so I will freeze them.
I think I will try pork with red sauce next. I bought the book
"Tamales 101 and it is very good. It has many interesting
recipes.
Ernie


  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ernie
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well I made my first tamales. They were turkey and turned
out good. I put tomatillo sauce in them. I learned a lot about
tamale making. My daughter came over and spread the masa
on the husks. I have a vacuum packer so I will freeze them.
I think I will try pork with red sauce next. I bought the book
"Tamales 101 and it is very good. It has many interesting
recipes.
Ernie


  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Paul Covey
 
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That's the best comment yet, and I'm married to a professor. Your whole
discussion reminds us of the futility experienced here big time in the
past of getting into arguments about "authenticity" even though the
question is a good one.

Art Sackett wrote:
> Windcat > wrote:
>
>>OK, what is the correct pronunciation of guacamole?

>
>
> If you want to be haughty, ask an academician. If you want to be
> unsure, ask two academicians. If you want to be confused, ask three or
> more academicians. If you want to witness a long and pointless debate,
> ask three or more academicians at the same table.
>
> If you want to order it in a restaurant, pronounce it however it sounds
> right to you -- your server will get the right idea.
>
> If you want to sell it to a restaurant, wait until the buyer says it
> first, and use his pronunciation. If he's a culture nazi, he'll think
> you're one of his kind and your guac' will taste better to him. If he's
> one who detests haughty people, he'll think you're one of his kind and
> your guac' will taste better to him. If he's just a normal guy, he
> won't care how you pronounce it as long as it tastes good.
>
> If you just want to talk to your friends about it, pronounce it however
> you're accustomed to pronouncing it. If they call attention to your
> strange pronunciation just tell 'em that that the stuff in the bowl is
> tastier and more filling going into their mouths than is the name for
> it coming out of their mouths.
>
> :-)
>



  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Paul Covey
 
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That's the best comment yet, and I'm married to a professor. Your whole
discussion reminds us of the futility experienced here big time in the
past of getting into arguments about "authenticity" even though the
question is a good one.

Art Sackett wrote:
> Windcat > wrote:
>
>>OK, what is the correct pronunciation of guacamole?

>
>
> If you want to be haughty, ask an academician. If you want to be
> unsure, ask two academicians. If you want to be confused, ask three or
> more academicians. If you want to witness a long and pointless debate,
> ask three or more academicians at the same table.
>
> If you want to order it in a restaurant, pronounce it however it sounds
> right to you -- your server will get the right idea.
>
> If you want to sell it to a restaurant, wait until the buyer says it
> first, and use his pronunciation. If he's a culture nazi, he'll think
> you're one of his kind and your guac' will taste better to him. If he's
> one who detests haughty people, he'll think you're one of his kind and
> your guac' will taste better to him. If he's just a normal guy, he
> won't care how you pronounce it as long as it tastes good.
>
> If you just want to talk to your friends about it, pronounce it however
> you're accustomed to pronouncing it. If they call attention to your
> strange pronunciation just tell 'em that that the stuff in the bowl is
> tastier and more filling going into their mouths than is the name for
> it coming out of their mouths.
>
> :-)
>

  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jim Lane
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Paul Covey wrote:

> That's the best comment yet, and I'm married to a professor. Your whole
> discussion reminds us of the futility experienced here big time in the
> past of getting into arguments about "authenticity" even though the
> question is a good one.
>
> Art Sackett wrote:
>
>> Windcat > wrote:
>>
>>> OK, what is the correct pronunciation of guacamole?

>>
>>
>>
>> If you want to be haughty, ask an academician. If you want to be
>> unsure, ask two academicians. If you want to be confused, ask three or
>> more academicians. If you want to witness a long and pointless debate,
>> ask three or more academicians at the same table.
>>
>> If you want to order it in a restaurant, pronounce it however it
>> sounds right to you -- your server will get the right idea.
>>
>> If you want to sell it to a restaurant, wait until the buyer says it
>> first, and use his pronunciation. If he's a culture nazi, he'll think
>> you're one of his kind and your guac' will taste better to him. If
>> he's one who detests haughty people, he'll think you're one of his
>> kind and your guac' will taste better to him. If he's just a normal
>> guy, he won't care how you pronounce it as long as it tastes good.
>>
>> If you just want to talk to your friends about it, pronounce it
>> however you're accustomed to pronouncing it. If they call attention to
>> your
>> strange pronunciation just tell 'em that that the stuff in the bowl is
>> tastier and more filling going into their mouths than is the name for
>> it coming out of their mouths.
>>
>> :-)
>>


Missed

If you are among the culture it comes from, listen to them and pronounce
it the same then tell the academician and everyone else, "if you don't
like the way I pronounce it, go to hell and I'll eat your share."


jim
  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jim Lane
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Paul Covey wrote:

> That's the best comment yet, and I'm married to a professor. Your whole
> discussion reminds us of the futility experienced here big time in the
> past of getting into arguments about "authenticity" even though the
> question is a good one.
>
> Art Sackett wrote:
>
>> Windcat > wrote:
>>
>>> OK, what is the correct pronunciation of guacamole?

>>
>>
>>
>> If you want to be haughty, ask an academician. If you want to be
>> unsure, ask two academicians. If you want to be confused, ask three or
>> more academicians. If you want to witness a long and pointless debate,
>> ask three or more academicians at the same table.
>>
>> If you want to order it in a restaurant, pronounce it however it
>> sounds right to you -- your server will get the right idea.
>>
>> If you want to sell it to a restaurant, wait until the buyer says it
>> first, and use his pronunciation. If he's a culture nazi, he'll think
>> you're one of his kind and your guac' will taste better to him. If
>> he's one who detests haughty people, he'll think you're one of his
>> kind and your guac' will taste better to him. If he's just a normal
>> guy, he won't care how you pronounce it as long as it tastes good.
>>
>> If you just want to talk to your friends about it, pronounce it
>> however you're accustomed to pronouncing it. If they call attention to
>> your
>> strange pronunciation just tell 'em that that the stuff in the bowl is
>> tastier and more filling going into their mouths than is the name for
>> it coming out of their mouths.
>>
>> :-)
>>


Missed

If you are among the culture it comes from, listen to them and pronounce
it the same then tell the academician and everyone else, "if you don't
like the way I pronounce it, go to hell and I'll eat your share."


jim
  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Paul Covey
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jim, I'm not 100% sure what your point is, and I agree listen within the
culture and and try to speak like them, but I'm not sure what the last
half of your comment is. I really try to respect everyones culture, but
if I don't know Spanish, and I try but am not quite right, that should
be okay because at least I try. And cultures intermingle and evolve
over time with things such as food, and that is where those old
authenticity arguments got very tiring as everyone in this ng agreed
(and shouldn't be argued out again). But this is why I used to love
this ng, as I could learn so much, as many of the great recipes for food
also included cultural aspects. I don't remember who, but there was one
person especially who told long stories about how the food was prepared
and enjoyed where he lived which was great. Anyway, yes try our best to
say things right and understand, but don't be totally hung up about
cultural perfection. I'd guess there are many different pronunciations
for the same word, such as guacamole, in different regions. And if you
have good ideas for a bean side dish that isn't refried beans like I
asked for in another post, please let me know.
Paul

Jim Lane wrote:
> Paul Covey wrote:
>
>> That's the best comment yet, and I'm married to a professor. Your
>> whole discussion reminds us of the futility experienced here big time
>> in the past of getting into arguments about "authenticity" even though
>> the question is a good one.
>>
>> Art Sackett wrote:
>>
>>> Windcat > wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK, what is the correct pronunciation of guacamole?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you want to be haughty, ask an academician. If you want to be
>>> unsure, ask two academicians. If you want to be confused, ask three
>>> or more academicians. If you want to witness a long and pointless
>>> debate, ask three or more academicians at the same table.
>>>
>>> If you want to order it in a restaurant, pronounce it however it
>>> sounds right to you -- your server will get the right idea.
>>>
>>> If you want to sell it to a restaurant, wait until the buyer says it
>>> first, and use his pronunciation. If he's a culture nazi, he'll think
>>> you're one of his kind and your guac' will taste better to him. If
>>> he's one who detests haughty people, he'll think you're one of his
>>> kind and your guac' will taste better to him. If he's just a normal
>>> guy, he won't care how you pronounce it as long as it tastes good.
>>>
>>> If you just want to talk to your friends about it, pronounce it
>>> however you're accustomed to pronouncing it. If they call attention
>>> to your
>>> strange pronunciation just tell 'em that that the stuff in the bowl
>>> is tastier and more filling going into their mouths than is the name for
>>> it coming out of their mouths.
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>

>
> Missed
>
> If you are among the culture it comes from, listen to them and pronounce
> it the same then tell the academician and everyone else, "if you don't
> like the way I pronounce it, go to hell and I'll eat your share."
>
>
> jim

  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Paul Covey
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jim, I'm not 100% sure what your point is, and I agree listen within the
culture and and try to speak like them, but I'm not sure what the last
half of your comment is. I really try to respect everyones culture, but
if I don't know Spanish, and I try but am not quite right, that should
be okay because at least I try. And cultures intermingle and evolve
over time with things such as food, and that is where those old
authenticity arguments got very tiring as everyone in this ng agreed
(and shouldn't be argued out again). But this is why I used to love
this ng, as I could learn so much, as many of the great recipes for food
also included cultural aspects. I don't remember who, but there was one
person especially who told long stories about how the food was prepared
and enjoyed where he lived which was great. Anyway, yes try our best to
say things right and understand, but don't be totally hung up about
cultural perfection. I'd guess there are many different pronunciations
for the same word, such as guacamole, in different regions. And if you
have good ideas for a bean side dish that isn't refried beans like I
asked for in another post, please let me know.
Paul

Jim Lane wrote:
> Paul Covey wrote:
>
>> That's the best comment yet, and I'm married to a professor. Your
>> whole discussion reminds us of the futility experienced here big time
>> in the past of getting into arguments about "authenticity" even though
>> the question is a good one.
>>
>> Art Sackett wrote:
>>
>>> Windcat > wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK, what is the correct pronunciation of guacamole?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you want to be haughty, ask an academician. If you want to be
>>> unsure, ask two academicians. If you want to be confused, ask three
>>> or more academicians. If you want to witness a long and pointless
>>> debate, ask three or more academicians at the same table.
>>>
>>> If you want to order it in a restaurant, pronounce it however it
>>> sounds right to you -- your server will get the right idea.
>>>
>>> If you want to sell it to a restaurant, wait until the buyer says it
>>> first, and use his pronunciation. If he's a culture nazi, he'll think
>>> you're one of his kind and your guac' will taste better to him. If
>>> he's one who detests haughty people, he'll think you're one of his
>>> kind and your guac' will taste better to him. If he's just a normal
>>> guy, he won't care how you pronounce it as long as it tastes good.
>>>
>>> If you just want to talk to your friends about it, pronounce it
>>> however you're accustomed to pronouncing it. If they call attention
>>> to your
>>> strange pronunciation just tell 'em that that the stuff in the bowl
>>> is tastier and more filling going into their mouths than is the name for
>>> it coming out of their mouths.
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>

>
> Missed
>
> If you are among the culture it comes from, listen to them and pronounce
> it the same then tell the academician and everyone else, "if you don't
> like the way I pronounce it, go to hell and I'll eat your share."
>
>
> jim



  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jim Lane
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Paul Covey wrote:
> Jim, I'm not 100% sure what your point is, and I agree listen within the
> culture and and try to speak like them, but I'm not sure what the last
> half of your comment is. I really try to respect everyones culture, but
> if I don't know Spanish, and I try but am not quite right, that should
> be okay because at least I try. And cultures intermingle and evolve
> over time with things such as food, and that is where those old
> authenticity arguments got very tiring as everyone in this ng agreed
> (and shouldn't be argued out again). But this is why I used to love
> this ng, as I could learn so much, as many of the great recipes for food
> also included cultural aspects. I don't remember who, but there was one
> person especially who told long stories about how the food was prepared
> and enjoyed where he lived which was great. Anyway, yes try our best to
> say things right and understand, but don't be totally hung up about
> cultural perfection. I'd guess there are many different pronunciations
> for the same word, such as guacamole, in different regions. And if you
> have good ideas for a bean side dish that isn't refried beans like I
> asked for in another post, please let me know.
> Paul
>
> Jim Lane wrote:
>
>> Paul Covey wrote:


snip

>>>> If you want to be haughty, ask an academician.
>>>> If you want to order it in a restaurant,
>>>> If you want to sell it to a restaurant,
>>>> If you just want to talk to your friends



The word "you" is missing from my first line - should be: You missed. . .

>> Missed
>>
>> If you are among the culture it comes from, listen to them and
>> pronounce it the same then tell the academician and everyone else, "if
>> you don't like the way I pronounce it, go to hell and I'll eat your
>> share."



Just adding another thought to the list above my reply should any of
those folks then want to dipute the pronunciation.

That clear things up a bit? Pass the guacamole, pleae.


jim



  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jim Lane
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Paul Covey wrote:
> Jim, I'm not 100% sure what your point is, and I agree listen within the
> culture and and try to speak like them, but I'm not sure what the last
> half of your comment is. I really try to respect everyones culture, but
> if I don't know Spanish, and I try but am not quite right, that should
> be okay because at least I try. And cultures intermingle and evolve
> over time with things such as food, and that is where those old
> authenticity arguments got very tiring as everyone in this ng agreed
> (and shouldn't be argued out again). But this is why I used to love
> this ng, as I could learn so much, as many of the great recipes for food
> also included cultural aspects. I don't remember who, but there was one
> person especially who told long stories about how the food was prepared
> and enjoyed where he lived which was great. Anyway, yes try our best to
> say things right and understand, but don't be totally hung up about
> cultural perfection. I'd guess there are many different pronunciations
> for the same word, such as guacamole, in different regions. And if you
> have good ideas for a bean side dish that isn't refried beans like I
> asked for in another post, please let me know.
> Paul
>
> Jim Lane wrote:
>
>> Paul Covey wrote:


snip

>>>> If you want to be haughty, ask an academician.
>>>> If you want to order it in a restaurant,
>>>> If you want to sell it to a restaurant,
>>>> If you just want to talk to your friends



The word "you" is missing from my first line - should be: You missed. . .

>> Missed
>>
>> If you are among the culture it comes from, listen to them and
>> pronounce it the same then tell the academician and everyone else, "if
>> you don't like the way I pronounce it, go to hell and I'll eat your
>> share."



Just adding another thought to the list above my reply should any of
those folks then want to dipute the pronunciation.

That clear things up a bit? Pass the guacamole, pleae.


jim



  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Dy
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Paul Covey" > wrote in message
...
> That's the best comment yet, and I'm married to a professor. Your whole
> discussion reminds us of the futility experienced here big time in the
> past of getting into arguments about "authenticity" even though the
> question is a good one.



?? I don't understand your or Art's posts at all. What's wrong with
wanting to know how guacamole is pronounced?

Only problem was that he/she wasn't clear which pronunciation he/she was
interested in: Standard American English, Mexican Spanish, or Nahuatl.

Peter


  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Windcat
 
Posts: n/a
Default

And if you
> have good ideas for a bean side dish that isn't refried beans like I
> asked for in another post, please let me know.
> Paul


I'd vote for Charo beans, and a side order of that
mashed avocado stuff with the tomatoes and onions in it.
  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
krusty kritter
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Peter Dy wrote:
> That may be so, but are you saying that in Mexican *Spanish*,

"guacamole" starts with a glottal stop?

Yes. The "G" at the beginning of "guacamole" and "Guatemala"
are also attempts to transliterate the glottal stop that is unfamiliar
to speakers of European languages...

One web page that I viewed suggests that students of the language
should try to raise the "G" sound up higher into the throat (and soften
the "G" sound almost to a click in the throat)instead of
pronouncing the gutteral "GWA" sound from deeper down...



  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
krusty kritter
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Peter Dy wrote:
> That may be so, but are you saying that in Mexican *Spanish*,

"guacamole" starts with a glottal stop?

Yes. The "G" at the beginning of "guacamole" and "Guatemala"
are also attempts to transliterate the glottal stop that is unfamiliar
to speakers of European languages...

One web page that I viewed suggests that students of the language
should try to raise the "G" sound up higher into the throat (and soften
the "G" sound almost to a click in the throat)instead of
pronouncing the gutteral "GWA" sound from deeper down...

  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
krusty kritter
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Art Sackett wrote:

> If you want to order it in a restaurant, pronounce it however it

sounds right to you -- your server will get the right idea.

I can just imagine Art in a fast food restaurant in South Philly,
holding a numbered cash register receipt, waiting for his order...

The fast food associate in his paper hat shoves Art's tray across the
counter, shouting "Number 312, pastrami wrap, side o' gwock,
there ya go, Chief, enjoy, thanks for choosing Rapper's Wraps!"

  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
krusty kritter
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Art Sackett wrote:

> If you want to order it in a restaurant, pronounce it however it

sounds right to you -- your server will get the right idea.

I can just imagine Art in a fast food restaurant in South Philly,
holding a numbered cash register receipt, waiting for his order...

The fast food associate in his paper hat shoves Art's tray across the
counter, shouting "Number 312, pastrami wrap, side o' gwock,
there ya go, Chief, enjoy, thanks for choosing Rapper's Wraps!"

  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
krusty kritter
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Ernie wrote:
> My daughter came over and spread the masa on the husks.


I made tamales twice over the Christmas holidays, I used enough
ingredients to make about 4 dozen small tamales, but never used any
corn husks at all. I just made one *tamale gigante*, in a covered
casserole dish...

Since all you are doing when you steam the tamales is cooking the masa,
you can easily do that in a microwave oven, it takes about 15 minutes
of nuking and then you let your covered microwave safe casserole dish
sit for 45 minutes to thoroughly steam the masa...

>I have a vacuum packer so I will freeze them.


Problem with freezing tamales is that freezing also dries them out.
Before eating them, defrost them in a microwave safe covered casserole
dish, add a few tablespoons of water, and nuke them again for a few
minutes to re-steam the masa. But, it's just never quite the same as
freshly-steamed masa...

> I think I will try pork with red sauce next


You can boil the pork for 1.5 hours, then fry it in oil, while
constantly stirring to shred it throughly. I used 2 ounces of powdered
Chili California with 2 pounds of pork for my first batch of Xmas
tamales, for the second, I used 1 pound of ground turkey
and about 8 ounces of canned red enchilada sauce...

  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Art Sackett
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Paul Covey > wrote:

> And if you
> have good ideas for a bean side dish that isn't refried beans like I
> asked for in another post, please let me know.


I'm fond of frijoles borrachos:

http://www.google.com?q=recipe+frijoles+borrachos

I usually cook up enough for a small army, and freeze several
containers for later use.

--
Art Sackett,
Patron Saint of Drunken Fornication


  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Art Sackett
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Paul Covey > wrote:

> And if you
> have good ideas for a bean side dish that isn't refried beans like I
> asked for in another post, please let me know.


I'm fond of frijoles borrachos:

http://www.google.com?q=recipe+frijoles+borrachos

I usually cook up enough for a small army, and freeze several
containers for later use.

--
Art Sackett,
Patron Saint of Drunken Fornication
  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Art Sackett
 
Posts: n/a
Default

krusty kritter > wrote:

> The fast food associate in his paper hat shoves Art's tray across the
> counter, shouting "Number 312, pastrami wrap, side o' gwock,
> there ya go, Chief, enjoy, thanks for choosing Rapper's Wraps!"


Somehow, I *can't* imagine that... and I'll have to admit my
ignorance: What's a pastrami wrap?

--
Art Sackett,
Patron Saint of Drunken Fornication
  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Art Sackett
 
Posts: n/a
Default

krusty kritter > wrote:

> The fast food associate in his paper hat shoves Art's tray across the
> counter, shouting "Number 312, pastrami wrap, side o' gwock,
> there ya go, Chief, enjoy, thanks for choosing Rapper's Wraps!"


Somehow, I *can't* imagine that... and I'll have to admit my
ignorance: What's a pastrami wrap?

--
Art Sackett,
Patron Saint of Drunken Fornication
  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
krusty kritter
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Art Sackett wrote:

> Somehow, I *can't* imagine that... and I'll have to admit my
> ignorance: What's a pastrami wrap?


A "wrap" is a symbol of yuppie decadence, denying traditional Mexican
cuisine in favor of a lithe physique...

You may define "traditional" as you please...

Eschewing any ingredients that might increase the size of the love
handles or enhance the spare tire, the yuppie "wrap" uses only the
flour tortilla to enfold the ingredients of the more fattening
traditional burrito...

Anything can go into a wrap...

A fast food stand on Santa Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood made
gut-busting pastrami/onion/fried rice wraps that they called "Oki
Dogs", the owner of the stand being from Okinawa...

But, a wrap usually contains Mexican-style ingredients, it's just less
fattening. And you can spoon your "gwock-a-mo-lay" from the common
trough on the condiment table into a little plastic container
provided for that purpose...

Such a wrap emporium might be called "Baja Malibu", or "Baja Fresh",
something that would appeal to the lithe young females desiring low
calorie Mexican-style food...

  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
krusty kritter
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Art Sackett wrote:

> Somehow, I *can't* imagine that... and I'll have to admit my
> ignorance: What's a pastrami wrap?


A "wrap" is a symbol of yuppie decadence, denying traditional Mexican
cuisine in favor of a lithe physique...

You may define "traditional" as you please...

Eschewing any ingredients that might increase the size of the love
handles or enhance the spare tire, the yuppie "wrap" uses only the
flour tortilla to enfold the ingredients of the more fattening
traditional burrito...

Anything can go into a wrap...

A fast food stand on Santa Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood made
gut-busting pastrami/onion/fried rice wraps that they called "Oki
Dogs", the owner of the stand being from Okinawa...

But, a wrap usually contains Mexican-style ingredients, it's just less
fattening. And you can spoon your "gwock-a-mo-lay" from the common
trough on the condiment table into a little plastic container
provided for that purpose...

Such a wrap emporium might be called "Baja Malibu", or "Baja Fresh",
something that would appeal to the lithe young females desiring low
calorie Mexican-style food...



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