Hi everyone, what are the best Tamales you ever ate?
I lived in Cottonwood Arizona in 1940 and was 10 years old. At noon a
Mexican man went up and down the street selling Tamales for ten cents each.
A dime was a lot of money in those days. It was an hours pay for working in
my father's grocery store (Harrison's Market). It could get me into the
movies or buy a bowl of Chile beans.
The tamales were big fat ones and as you peeled away the corn husks and
ate down to the meat in the center the aroma was tantalizing. I don't know
if they were beef or pork. The man's wife made them. She served Mexican
dinner family style under an arbor in the back yard. You had to order a day
in advance.
I will never forget her tamales.
Ernie Harrison

In article > ,
says...
> Hi everyone, what are the best Tamales you ever ate?
> I lived in Cottonwood Arizona in 1940 and was 10 years old. At noon a
> Mexican man went up and down the street selling Tamales for ten cents each.
> A dime was a lot of money in those days. It was an hours pay for working in
> my father's grocery store (Harrison's Market). It could get me into the
> movies or buy a bowl of Chile beans.
> The tamales were big fat ones and as you peeled away the corn husks and
> ate down to the meat in the center the aroma was tantalizing. I don't know
> if they were beef or pork. The man's wife made them. She served Mexican
> dinner family style under an arbor in the back yard. You had to order a day
> in advance.
> I will never forget her tamales.
> Ernie Harrison
>
>
El Indio in San Diego.
--
Bob
(remove ZZ to email)

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:52:12 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>Hi everyone, what are the best Tamales you ever ate?

Hey, Ernie,

I think my favorites were the turkey tamales that my then-wife and I
made our first year in Illinois, after having moved there from
Arizona. We were friends with another grad student couple, from New
Mexico, and we had a fine time making them.

I also remember making tamales with my parents and their friends
sometime in the early '50s. It was javelins meat, but I don't remember
the details.

> I lived in Cottonwood Arizona in 1940 and was 10 years old.

I did a search for Cottonwood, Arizona, and found three of them. Which
was yours?

Thanks for the good story.

David

yetanotherBob wrote:

> In article > ,
> says...
>
>>Hi everyone, what are the best Tamales you ever ate?
>> I lived in Cottonwood Arizona in 1940 and was 10 years old. At noon a
>>Mexican man went up and down the street selling Tamales for ten cents each.
>>A dime was a lot of money in those days. It was an hours pay for working in
>>my father's grocery store (Harrison's Market). It could get me into the
>>movies or buy a bowl of Chile beans.
>> The tamales were big fat ones and as you peeled away the corn husks and
>>ate down to the meat in the center the aroma was tantalizing. I don't know
>>if they were beef or pork. The man's wife made them. She served Mexican
>>dinner family style under an arbor in the back yard. You had to order a day
>>in advance.
>> I will never forget her tamales.
>>Ernie Harrison
>>
>>
>
> El Indio in San Diego.


I would have said this, but that was before a cart started selling
tamales wrapped in banana leafs near Horton Plaza and before finding the
little cart at 25th and C in Golden hill. El Indio's offering wouldn't
cast a shadow compared to these.

There's a specific tamale place on El Cajon Blvd, just east of the 805
that I have yet to try, although it looks like the offerings may have
diversified.


jim

>From: "Ernie"

>Hi everyone, what are the best Tamales you ever ate?

I've been eating tamales for about 50 years now, starting with the excellent
tamales and enchiladas made by a man named Leo, who operated a Mexican
restaurant out of an old adobe house in San Buenaventura...

San Buenaventura was founded by the Spanish missionary Junipero Serra in 1782,
but the name was too long for railroad timetables, so it was shortened to just
"Ventura" when the Anglos began developing the area after the war with
Mexico...

And our neighbors were Mexicans, so they shared their authentic tamales with us
at Christmas. Their daughter thought I would be good boyfriend material when I
was 10 years old, but she was just too tall for me...

A lady across the street was Mexican, too, and my mom would provide the
ingredients and she would cook up a bunch of pinto beans with ham hocks and
home made flour tortillas and that tasted great...

So far as commercially prepared tamales go, there's a taco stand on the corner
of La Brea and Pico in Los Angeles. It's called Lucy's, and their beef tamales
are wonderful. I've been eating Lucy's tamales for almost 30 years now...

The most disappointing tamales are the chicken tamales made by the Los Burritos
chain in Los Angeles. They are just too spicy and give me heartburn...



# * 0 * #
^

>From: "Ernie"

>Hi everyone, what are the best Tamales you ever ate?

I've been eating tamales for about 50 years now, starting with the excellent
tamales and enchiladas made by a man named Leo, who operated a Mexican
restaurant out of an old adobe house in San Buenaventura...

San Buenaventura was founded by the Spanish missionary Junipero Serra in 1782,
but the name was too long for railroad timetables, so it was shortened to just
"Ventura" when the Anglos began developing the area after the war with
Mexico...

And our neighbors were Mexicans, so they shared their authentic tamales with us
at Christmas. Their daughter thought I would be good boyfriend material when I
was 10 years old, but she was just too tall for me...

A lady across the street was Mexican, too, and my mom would provide the
ingredients and she would cook up a bunch of pinto beans with ham hocks and
home made flour tortillas and that tasted great...

So far as commercially prepared tamales go, there's a taco stand on the corner
of La Brea and Pico in Los Angeles. It's called Lucy's, and their beef tamales
are wonderful. I've been eating Lucy's tamales for almost 30 years now...

The most disappointing tamales are the chicken tamales made by the Los Burritos
chain in Los Angeles. They are just too spicy and give me heartburn...



# * 0 * #
^

Hi David,
Your turkey and Javalina pig tamales sound interesting. As for Cottonwood,
it is located in the geographic center of Arizona, north of Prescot and
south of Sedona. It was a great place for growing up. I have never made
tamales but I am going to
try this New Years. I think it would be a great get together activity for
the family and friends.
Ernie

> Hey, Ernie,
> I think my favorites were the turkey tamales that my then-wife and I
> made
<snip>
> I also remember making tamales with my parents and their friends
> sometime in the early '50s. It was javelins meat, but I don't remember
> the details.
> I did a search for Cottonwood, Arizona, and found three of them. Which
> was yours?
> Thanks for the good story.
> David

Hi David,
Your turkey and Javalina pig tamales sound interesting. As for Cottonwood,
it is located in the geographic center of Arizona, north of Prescot and
south of Sedona. It was a great place for growing up. I have never made
tamales but I am going to
try this New Years. I think it would be a great get together activity for
the family and friends.
Ernie

> Hey, Ernie,
> I think my favorites were the turkey tamales that my then-wife and I
> made
<snip>
> I also remember making tamales with my parents and their friends
> sometime in the early '50s. It was javelins meat, but I don't remember
> the details.
> I did a search for Cottonwood, Arizona, and found three of them. Which
> was yours?
> Thanks for the good story.
> David

Thanks, Bob, Jim & Krusty for sharing,
Ernie

Thanks, Bob, Jim & Krusty for sharing,
Ernie

>From: "Ernie"

> I have never made tamales but I am going to try this New Years. I think it
would be a great get together activity for the family and friends.

It shouldn't be hard to make your own holiday tamales, as the dry corn husks
and ready-made masa are easily found in big stores like Food4Less. All you have
to do to the masa is mix a bunch of lard with it...

Lard is what makes the bland cornmeal taste so good, but use it sparingly, if
you want the flavor of pig fat...

A Mexican girl who was apartment-sitting for my neighbor made a bunch of
tamales that were nicely-seasoned, but
she went overboard on the lard and it was dripping out of the masa...

I have read that tamales might not be a Mexican culinary invention at all, in
spite of the fact that tamale seems to be a Nahuatl word for "steamed corn meal
dough"...

Maybe the supposedly Nahuatl word entered the language from the French. The
royal family of Spain was French, from the time of Napoleon...

The criollos in Mexican who were of Spanish/French descent may have been
reminded of a French dish called "timbale", where a creamy mixture meat and
vegetables was baked in a mold shaped like a kettle drum or timbale, or
sometimes the mixture was baked in a pastry shell, like a beef or chicken pot
pie or a Cornish pasty...

Cornish pasties can be very greasy, too, resulting in heart burn for me...

But the idea of a Mexican-style timbale cooked in a pastry shell sounds
intriguing. I suppose that an empanada might me similar though...





# * 0 * #
^

"Ernie" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi David,
> Your turkey and Javalina pig

Javalinas (or better, peccaries), are not pigs. They are in the family:
Tayassuidae. All pigs (swine) are in the family: Suidae. They are both of
the order: Artiodactyla along with the hippopatamuses. Hippos are in the
family: Hippopotamidae BTW.

Charlie

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:29:06 GMT, "Charles Gifford"
> wrote:

>
>"Ernie" > wrote in message
. com...
>> Hi David,
>> Your turkey and Javalina pig
>
>Javalinas (or better, peccaries), are not pigs. They are in the family:
>Tayassuidae. All pigs (swine) are in the family: Suidae. They are both of
>the order: Artiodactyla along with the hippopatamuses. Hippos are in the
>family: Hippopotamidae BTW.
>
>Charlie
>
Well, whatever. I have a Ph.D. in mammalogy, but I don't fuss about
such things when it comes to eating. What was your point, Charlie?

David

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:29:06 GMT, "Charles Gifford"
> wrote:

>
>"Ernie" > wrote in message
. com...
>> Hi David,
>> Your turkey and Javalina pig
>
>Javalinas (or better, peccaries), are not pigs. They are in the family:
>Tayassuidae. All pigs (swine) are in the family: Suidae. They are both of
>the order: Artiodactyla along with the hippopatamuses. Hippos are in the
>family: Hippopotamidae BTW.
>
>Charlie
>
Well, whatever. I have a Ph.D. in mammalogy, but I don't fuss about
such things when it comes to eating. What was your point, Charlie?

David

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:59:09 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>Hi David,
>Your turkey and Javalina pig tamales sound interesting.

Yep, they still sound good to me, and I still make turkey tamales.

>As for Cottonwood,
>it is located in the geographic center of Arizona, north of Prescot and
>south of Sedona. It was a great place for growing up.

Now I know where you grew up, not far from the Verde River. One of my
best friends in grad school, from Flagstaff, did his research along
that river.

> I have never made
>tamales but I am going to
> try this New Years. I think it would be a great get together activity for
>the family and friends.

You are certainly right about that. It's a great family-and-friends
thing to do. Have fun, but give yourselves plenty of time to do the
job.

David

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:59:09 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>Hi David,
>Your turkey and Javalina pig tamales sound interesting.

Yep, they still sound good to me, and I still make turkey tamales.

>As for Cottonwood,
>it is located in the geographic center of Arizona, north of Prescot and
>south of Sedona. It was a great place for growing up.

Now I know where you grew up, not far from the Verde River. One of my
best friends in grad school, from Flagstaff, did his research along
that river.

> I have never made
>tamales but I am going to
> try this New Years. I think it would be a great get together activity for
>the family and friends.

You are certainly right about that. It's a great family-and-friends
thing to do. Have fun, but give yourselves plenty of time to do the
job.

David

Hey! Another old timer! I remember those days back in Weatherford
Texas when they were brought up the street in an old push cart. My eyes
get teary thinking about it! Good times/ good memories...

Ernie wrote:

>Hi everyone, what are the best Tamales you ever ate?
> I lived in Cottonwood Arizona in 1940 and was 10 years old. At noon a
>Mexican man went up and down the street selling Tamales for ten cents each.
>A dime was a lot of money in those days. It was an hours pay for working in
>my father's grocery store (Harrison's Market). It could get me into the
>movies or buy a bowl of Chile beans.
> The tamales were big fat ones and as you peeled away the corn husks and
>ate down to the meat in the center the aroma was tantalizing. I don't know
>if they were beef or pork. The man's wife made them. She served Mexican
>dinner family style under an arbor in the back yard. You had to order a day
>in advance.
> I will never forget her tamales.
>Ernie Harrison
>
>
>
>

Hey! Another old timer! I remember those days back in Weatherford
Texas when they were brought up the street in an old push cart. My eyes
get teary thinking about it! Good times/ good memories...

Ernie wrote:

>Hi everyone, what are the best Tamales you ever ate?
> I lived in Cottonwood Arizona in 1940 and was 10 years old. At noon a
>Mexican man went up and down the street selling Tamales for ten cents each.
>A dime was a lot of money in those days. It was an hours pay for working in
>my father's grocery store (Harrison's Market). It could get me into the
>movies or buy a bowl of Chile beans.
> The tamales were big fat ones and as you peeled away the corn husks and
>ate down to the meat in the center the aroma was tantalizing. I don't know
>if they were beef or pork. The man's wife made them. She served Mexican
>dinner family style under an arbor in the back yard. You had to order a day
>in advance.
> I will never forget her tamales.
>Ernie Harrison
>
>
>
>

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:31:54 -0800, Jim Davis
> wrote:

>Hey! Another old timer! I remember those days back in Weatherford
>Texas when they were brought up the street in an old push cart. My eyes
>get teary thinking about it! Good times/ good memories...
>
Good prices, too, right?

David

David,
The Verde River runs right by Cottonwood. Cottonwood has expanded since I
was a boy; It now includes Clemenceau and Smelter City. Clemenceau and
Clarkdale were private company towns for the smelter workers. The copper
was mined in the nearby mine at Jerome and the ore was brought to the
smelters by narrow gauge railroads. I enjoyed going to the slag dump at
Clarkdale after dark when they dumped the molten ore residue. It ran down
the slag heap and into the Verde River and was an interesting and awesome
sight.
What kind of research did your friend do?
Ernie

"David Wright" > wrote in message
> Now I know where you grew up, not far from the Verde River. One of my
> best friends in grad school, from Flagstaff, did his research along
> that river.
> David

Until February this year, I had never tasted Tamales. I was on a visit to
Austin, Tx to record an album, and in a gas station somewhere south of the
river there was a slow cooker full of homemade tamales on the counter. I
was intrigued, so I bought three to try. The guy told me his mother made
them. First bite I was hooked!!! The pork filling was delicately spiced
and the masa tasted so rich and sweet and...corny! I tried Tamales wherever
I found them after that, but none quite lived up to that first time (guess
that rings true of other experiences too!!!)
Back home in the u.k. I searched hi and lo for the ingredients to make my
own. Masa Harina turned up in my local Sainsburys supermarket, but I had to
order the husks from a great Mexican deli in Glaswgow called Lupe Pinto
along with a couple of kilos of pinto beans and some annato seeds (also
impossible to get here!)
My 7 year old daughter Alice was intrigued by the corn husks and wanted to
help me make these mysterious things - I can think of nothing in british
cuisine even remotely similar to them.
She loved soaking the corn husks, and kept prodding them to see if they were
soft, she loved pulling the pork to pieces with a couple of forks when it
came out of the pressure cooker, but most of all she loved assembling the
things. Took to it like a Mexican kid!! Laying out the husk, spreading the
masa, adding just the right amount of filling, wrapping, tying and stacking
in the steamer.
When we all sat down to unwrap our feast, I couldn't believe they tasted so
much like the first Tamales I had tried in Austin...I gues those ones had
some fun in the mix too!!!
Alice is now learning Spanish, still making Tamales, and keeps nagging me to
take her to Mexico. One Day I will.

Make Tamales, Not War!!!

Gareth Rowan
www.toocountry.co.uk
{ o}===:::/TOO COUNTRY\:::==={o }




"Ernie" > wrote in message
. com...
> Hi everyone, what are the best Tamales you ever ate?
> I lived in Cottonwood Arizona in 1940 and was 10 years old. At noon a
> Mexican man went up and down the street selling Tamales for ten cents
each.
> A dime was a lot of money in those days. It was an hours pay for working
in
> my father's grocery store (Harrison's Market). It could get me into the
> movies or buy a bowl of Chile beans.
> The tamales were big fat ones and as you peeled away the corn husks and
> ate down to the meat in the center the aroma was tantalizing. I don't
know
> if they were beef or pork. The man's wife made them. She served Mexican
> dinner family style under an arbor in the back yard. You had to order a
day
> in advance.
> I will never forget her tamales.
> Ernie Harrison
>
>

"Ernie" > schreef in bericht
. com...
> Hi everyone, what are the best Tamales you ever ate?
> I lived in Cottonwood Arizona in 1940 and was 10 years old. At noon a
> Mexican man went up and down the street selling Tamales for ten cents
> each.
> A dime was a lot of money in those days. It was an hours pay for working
> in
> my father's grocery store (Harrison's Market). It could get me into the
> movies or buy a bowl of Chile beans.
> The tamales were big fat ones and as you peeled away the corn husks and
> ate down to the meat in the center the aroma was tantalizing. I don't
> know
> if they were beef or pork. The man's wife made them. She served Mexican
> dinner family style under an arbor in the back yard. You had to order a
> day
> in advance.
> I will never forget her tamales.
> Ernie Harrison
>


la flor de liz in mexico city
>

"Ernie" > schreef in bericht
. com...
> Hi everyone, what are the best Tamales you ever ate?
> I lived in Cottonwood Arizona in 1940 and was 10 years old. At noon a
> Mexican man went up and down the street selling Tamales for ten cents
> each.
> A dime was a lot of money in those days. It was an hours pay for working
> in
> my father's grocery store (Harrison's Market). It could get me into the
> movies or buy a bowl of Chile beans.
> The tamales were big fat ones and as you peeled away the corn husks and
> ate down to the meat in the center the aroma was tantalizing. I don't
> know
> if they were beef or pork. The man's wife made them. She served Mexican
> dinner family style under an arbor in the back yard. You had to order a
> day
> in advance.
> I will never forget her tamales.
> Ernie Harrison
>


la flor de liz in mexico city
>

>From: "Gareth Evans"

>I was on a visit to Austin, Tx to record an album, and in a gas station
somewhere south of the river there was a slow cooker full of homemade tamales
on the counter.

What, no shovel was in evidence?

If tamales really are a truly authentic mesoamerican culinary invention, they
were probably originally cooked in an earth steamer, which is a hole in the
ground filled with red hot rocks...

Then the tamales wrapped in corn husks would be placed in the middle of the hot
rocks and perhaps covered with banana leaves or whatever available vegetation
would keep the dirt off the tamales, because water would be poured into the
hole to make steam, the banana leaves or whatever would be covered with dirt,
and then the whole shebang would be left to cook for a few hours...

The Mayan Indians down in Quintana Roo probably still cook their delicious
Cochinita Pibil in earth steamers...

Native Americans in the USA still use earth steamers. I recently watched a
video tape that showed modern Navajos in Arizona baking a holiday cake in this
traditional manner...

And, the traditional way New England way to cook freshly dug clams is in an
earth steamer covered with seaweed...

>First bite I was hooked!!! The pork filling was delicately spiced and the
masa tasted so rich and sweet and...corny!

Whenever I buy tamales, I always try to remember to ask if they are made with
pork, beef, or chicken...

The pork tamales are the best, because they contain the most fat, and the fat
is what gives the masa its flavor, too...

I remember seeing a butcher shop in Yucatan with tamale meat on display in the
window. The meat was covered with some sort of green powder, I suppose it was
powdered green chile peppers, but nobody I've asked seems to know...

Beef tamales can be excellent, to good, or merely indifferent, depending upon
what kind of meat is used in them...

I want the beef in my tamale to be juicy chunks. I once had tamales that seemed
to have been made with canned corned beef, and they weren't bad at all...

But the thin sliced beef used for carne asada is just too dry and flavorless to
make a good tamale...

When the tamales I order in a restaurant turn out to be made with chicken, I
feel cheated, I want my pork tamales...






# * 0 * #
^

>From: "Gareth Evans"

>I was on a visit to Austin, Tx to record an album, and in a gas station
somewhere south of the river there was a slow cooker full of homemade tamales
on the counter.

What, no shovel was in evidence?

If tamales really are a truly authentic mesoamerican culinary invention, they
were probably originally cooked in an earth steamer, which is a hole in the
ground filled with red hot rocks...

Then the tamales wrapped in corn husks would be placed in the middle of the hot
rocks and perhaps covered with banana leaves or whatever available vegetation
would keep the dirt off the tamales, because water would be poured into the
hole to make steam, the banana leaves or whatever would be covered with dirt,
and then the whole shebang would be left to cook for a few hours...

The Mayan Indians down in Quintana Roo probably still cook their delicious
Cochinita Pibil in earth steamers...

Native Americans in the USA still use earth steamers. I recently watched a
video tape that showed modern Navajos in Arizona baking a holiday cake in this
traditional manner...

And, the traditional way New England way to cook freshly dug clams is in an
earth steamer covered with seaweed...

>First bite I was hooked!!! The pork filling was delicately spiced and the
masa tasted so rich and sweet and...corny!

Whenever I buy tamales, I always try to remember to ask if they are made with
pork, beef, or chicken...

The pork tamales are the best, because they contain the most fat, and the fat
is what gives the masa its flavor, too...

I remember seeing a butcher shop in Yucatan with tamale meat on display in the
window. The meat was covered with some sort of green powder, I suppose it was
powdered green chile peppers, but nobody I've asked seems to know...

Beef tamales can be excellent, to good, or merely indifferent, depending upon
what kind of meat is used in them...

I want the beef in my tamale to be juicy chunks. I once had tamales that seemed
to have been made with canned corned beef, and they weren't bad at all...

But the thin sliced beef used for carne asada is just too dry and flavorless to
make a good tamale...

When the tamales I order in a restaurant turn out to be made with chicken, I
feel cheated, I want my pork tamales...






# * 0 * #
^

"David Wright" > wrote in message > >
> Well, whatever. I have a Ph.D. in mammalogy, but I don't fuss about
> such things when it comes to eating. What was your point, Charlie?
>
> David

Just making a simple and polite correction about an interesting subject
David. Some people may not be aware of peccary taxonomy.

Charlie, who doesn't consider peccaries edible either!

If it looks like a pig and sounds like a pig and smells worse than a pig, it
must be a Peccary.
Ernie

"Charles Gifford" > wrote > Just making a simple and
polite correction about an interesting subject
Some people may not be aware of peccary taxonomy.

"Ernie" > wrote in message
. com...
> If it looks like a pig and sounds like a pig and smells worse than a pig,
it
> must be a Peccary.
> Ernie
>

You got that right Ernie!! I have known quite a few peccaries in my time
and, as nice as they can be, they do have an odor that is, how can I put
this politely, somewhat off-putting. <grin>

Charlie

"Ernie" > wrote in message
. com...
> If it looks like a pig and sounds like a pig and smells worse than a pig,
it
> must be a Peccary.
> Ernie
>

You got that right Ernie!! I have known quite a few peccaries in my time
and, as nice as they can be, they do have an odor that is, how can I put
this politely, somewhat off-putting. <grin>

Charlie

"krusty kritter" > wrote in message
...
[...]
> I have read that tamales might not be a Mexican culinary invention at all,
> in
> spite of the fact that tamale seems to be a Nahuatl word for "steamed corn
> meal
> dough"...


Where did you read that??


> Maybe the supposedly Nahuatl word entered the language from the French.
> The
> royal family of Spain was French, from the time of Napoleon...


That happened, when, 1808? And people are claiming tamales didn't exist
before then?? No way. First, why question that "tamalli" is a Nahuatl
word? The American Heritage Dictionary gives that etymology, as do both of
my Mexican Spanish dictionaries. Second, corn is from Mexico. They are and
always were corn freaks. Corn was sacred. They use it to make everything
from beverages like atole to dry tostadas to soft empanadas. Surely,
stuffing fresh masa with something doesn't take that much imagination.
There's stuffed starch dishes all over the world--think of how many
countries have ravioli-type dishes.

I have just a few books on pre-hispanic Mexican food, but one of them does
note that tamales existed before the Spaniards came. It's a tiny book, but
it does have a decent reference section where they refer to a multi-volume
series called _La cocina mexicana a través de los siglos_, of which I saw a
few copies in Mexico when I was there, and it seems like a reliable,
scholarly enterprise. Anyone familiar with it?

Peter

"krusty kritter" > wrote in message
...
[...]
> I have read that tamales might not be a Mexican culinary invention at all,
> in
> spite of the fact that tamale seems to be a Nahuatl word for "steamed corn
> meal
> dough"...


Where did you read that??


> Maybe the supposedly Nahuatl word entered the language from the French.
> The
> royal family of Spain was French, from the time of Napoleon...


That happened, when, 1808? And people are claiming tamales didn't exist
before then?? No way. First, why question that "tamalli" is a Nahuatl
word? The American Heritage Dictionary gives that etymology, as do both of
my Mexican Spanish dictionaries. Second, corn is from Mexico. They are and
always were corn freaks. Corn was sacred. They use it to make everything
from beverages like atole to dry tostadas to soft empanadas. Surely,
stuffing fresh masa with something doesn't take that much imagination.
There's stuffed starch dishes all over the world--think of how many
countries have ravioli-type dishes.

I have just a few books on pre-hispanic Mexican food, but one of them does
note that tamales existed before the Spaniards came. It's a tiny book, but
it does have a decent reference section where they refer to a multi-volume
series called _La cocina mexicana a través de los siglos_, of which I saw a
few copies in Mexico when I was there, and it seems like a reliable,
scholarly enterprise. Anyone familiar with it?

Peter

"krusty kritter" > wrote in message
...
[...]
> Whenever I buy tamales, I always try to remember to ask if they are made
> with
> pork, beef, or chicken...
>
> The pork tamales are the best, because they contain the most fat, and the
> fat
> is what gives the masa its flavor, too...
[...]
> When the tamales I order in a restaurant turn out to be made with chicken,
> I
> feel cheated, I want my pork tamales...


I dunno. My favorite tamales are Oaxacan chicken mole negro tamales wrapped
in banana leaves. Sometimes mole negro is a bit strong on its own, but
paired with the rich, slighly bland taste of the corn in tamales--it's
absolutely perfect!

A few of my Oaxacan friends said, "Oh, no. The best are tamales de rajas!"
Well, I love rajas, so I was really looking forward to trying them, but we
weren't able to find a place that sold them. Only later, when I went to a
baseball game, did I finally run into a lady selling them. They weren't the
best, but probably because I got them at a stadium.

Peter

>From: "Peter Dy"

>Where did you read that??

I think I read in the Los Angeles Times about the possibility that tamales were
a Spanish/French criollo invention that was an attempt to recreate timbales
with local ingredients...

>That happened, when, 1808?

As I recall, without researching what I learned about Spain before my bus tour,
was that the king of Spain in the 1820's was one of Napoleon's relatives. The
French brought their culture to the Spanish capital, along with the rule of the
Bourbons...

French architecture in Madrid is very noticeable, one might think he was in
Paris, after leaving the areas of unimaginative Austrian buildings dating from
the 15th century...

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the French influenced Mexican cuisine in the
early 1800's...

>First, why question that "tamalli" is a Nahuatl
>word? The American Heritage Dictionary gives that etymology, as do both of my
Mexican Spanish dictionaries.

I don't question that "tamalli" is a Nahuatl word, I just wonder where the
Mexicans got the word originally...

The word "tamale" entered the English lexicon in 1854, but that doesn't mean
Mexicans weren't cooking tamales long before...

"Timbale" is only slightly older, it dates back to
1824. So there is some possibility that the theory about Mexican tamales being
an attempt to recreate European timbales with locally available ingredients
does have some possibility...

The words "tamalli", "tamale" and "timbale" all do sound very much alike...

But, I would really prefer that particular theory wasn't true. I do love
tamales and want to try cuisines that truly originated in various countries
that I visit...



# * 0 * #
^

>From: "Peter Dy"

>Where did you read that??

I think I read in the Los Angeles Times about the possibility that tamales were
a Spanish/French criollo invention that was an attempt to recreate timbales
with local ingredients...

>That happened, when, 1808?

As I recall, without researching what I learned about Spain before my bus tour,
was that the king of Spain in the 1820's was one of Napoleon's relatives. The
French brought their culture to the Spanish capital, along with the rule of the
Bourbons...

French architecture in Madrid is very noticeable, one might think he was in
Paris, after leaving the areas of unimaginative Austrian buildings dating from
the 15th century...

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the French influenced Mexican cuisine in the
early 1800's...

>First, why question that "tamalli" is a Nahuatl
>word? The American Heritage Dictionary gives that etymology, as do both of my
Mexican Spanish dictionaries.

I don't question that "tamalli" is a Nahuatl word, I just wonder where the
Mexicans got the word originally...

The word "tamale" entered the English lexicon in 1854, but that doesn't mean
Mexicans weren't cooking tamales long before...

"Timbale" is only slightly older, it dates back to
1824. So there is some possibility that the theory about Mexican tamales being
an attempt to recreate European timbales with locally available ingredients
does have some possibility...

The words "tamalli", "tamale" and "timbale" all do sound very much alike...

But, I would really prefer that particular theory wasn't true. I do love
tamales and want to try cuisines that truly originated in various countries
that I visit...



# * 0 * #
^

"krusty kritter" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Peter Dy"
>
>>Where did you read that??
>
> I think I read in the Los Angeles Times about the possibility that tamales
> were
> a Spanish/French criollo invention that was an attempt to recreate
> timbales
> with local ingredients...
>
>>That happened, when, 1808?
>
> As I recall, without researching what I learned about Spain before my bus
> tour,
> was that the king of Spain in the 1820's was one of Napoleon's relatives.
> The
> French brought their culture to the Spanish capital, along with the rule
> of the
> Bourbons...
>
> French architecture in Madrid is very noticeable, one might think he was
> in
> Paris, after leaving the areas of unimaginative Austrian buildings dating
> from
> the 15th century...
>
> I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the French influenced Mexican cuisine in
> the
> early 1800's...


Certainly--and that influence can be seen in architecture as well. All I'm
saying is that surely tamales exists hundreds of years prior to the 19th
century.


>
>>First, why question that "tamalli" is a Nahuatl
>>word? The American Heritage Dictionary gives that etymology, as do both
>>of my
> Mexican Spanish dictionaries.
>
> I don't question that "tamalli" is a Nahuatl word, I just wonder where the
> Mexicans got the word originally...


Krusty, my comments weren't directed at you, rather at whoever came up with
the idea. As for where the Mexican's got the word originally--uh, from
Aztec Nahuatl? Or do you mean where did the Aztec get it?


> The word "tamale" entered the English lexicon in 1854, but that doesn't
> mean
> Mexicans weren't cooking tamales long before...
>
> "Timbale" is only slightly older, it dates back to
> 1824. So there is some possibility that the theory about Mexican tamales
> being
> an attempt to recreate European timbales with locally available
> ingredients
> does have some possibility...
>
> The words "tamalli", "tamale" and "timbale" all do sound very much
> alike...
>
> But, I would really prefer that particular theory wasn't true. I do love
> tamales and want to try cuisines that truly originated in various
> countries
> that I visit...


OK, I found a Classical Nahuatl dictionary online. Fray Bernardino de
Sahagún mentioned tamales/tamalli already in 1577, when his "General History
of the Things of New Spain" was probably completed. He gives a list of
various kinds of tamales/tamalli. He also writes, for instance, "the good
people eat tortillas, tamales, honey tamales [or maybe "tamales with
honey"?], honey tortillas, large tortillas, rolled-up tortillas." All that
is written in Nahuatl in his book. Below is the complete entry for
"tamalli," where "Sah" refers to Sahagún.

Now, that's pretty darn pathetic for the person (again, not you!) who
thought up some French connection not to have looked at such an important
work as Sahagún. Even a simple Google search brought me to other pages that
said Sahagún's chronicles noted tamales--and called them such in Nahuatl.

TAMALLI:
Liste de tamales. Sah10,69.
Vendus par le vendeur de fruits. SahSah10,79.
ôntetl tzopêlic tamalli , deux tamales doux.
Dans un rite funéraire. Sah2,136.
in cuahuitl ahnôzo tlachinôlcatl in tlatlaz, in îtln iucciz tamalli , le
bois ou les roseaux à faire du feu brûleront, sur quoi cuiront les tamales.
Sah9,33.
in îxquich cualôni, tlaxcalli, tamalli, neuctamalli, neuctlaxcalli, hueyi
tlaxcalli, tlaxcalmimilli , tout ce qui est bon à manger, les tortillas, les
tamales, les tamales au miel, les tortillas au miel, les grandes tortillas,
les tortillas roulées. Sah8,69.
in chihchîltic tamalli , des tamales rouges. Sah8,39.
nacatlaôyoh tamalli chîlcôzyoh , des tamales de viandes cuits avec du maïs
et du piment jaune. Sah8,37.
quichîhuah tamalli , elles font des tamales.
Est dit de vieilles femmes, ilamatqueh. Sah4,123.
îxquich popoxcahui in tamalli , tous les tamales moisissent - all the
tamales became mouldy. Sah4,122.
Cf. les variétés neuctamalli, xocotamalli, miyhuatamalli, yacacoltamalli,
tenextamalli.
*~ à la forme possédée.
in întamal cencah zan tepitotôn , leurs tamales étaient très petits.
Il s'agit d'offrandes aux figurines des montagnes. Sah2,151.

http://www.ifrance.com/nahuatl/t/nahuatlT.html

Peter

"krusty kritter" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Peter Dy"
>
>>Where did you read that??
>
> I think I read in the Los Angeles Times about the possibility that tamales
> were
> a Spanish/French criollo invention that was an attempt to recreate
> timbales
> with local ingredients...
>
>>That happened, when, 1808?
>
> As I recall, without researching what I learned about Spain before my bus
> tour,
> was that the king of Spain in the 1820's was one of Napoleon's relatives.
> The
> French brought their culture to the Spanish capital, along with the rule
> of the
> Bourbons...
>
> French architecture in Madrid is very noticeable, one might think he was
> in
> Paris, after leaving the areas of unimaginative Austrian buildings dating
> from
> the 15th century...
>
> I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the French influenced Mexican cuisine in
> the
> early 1800's...


Certainly--and that influence can be seen in architecture as well. All I'm
saying is that surely tamales exists hundreds of years prior to the 19th
century.


>
>>First, why question that "tamalli" is a Nahuatl
>>word? The American Heritage Dictionary gives that etymology, as do both
>>of my
> Mexican Spanish dictionaries.
>
> I don't question that "tamalli" is a Nahuatl word, I just wonder where the
> Mexicans got the word originally...


Krusty, my comments weren't directed at you, rather at whoever came up with
the idea. As for where the Mexican's got the word originally--uh, from
Aztec Nahuatl? Or do you mean where did the Aztec get it?


> The word "tamale" entered the English lexicon in 1854, but that doesn't
> mean
> Mexicans weren't cooking tamales long before...
>
> "Timbale" is only slightly older, it dates back to
> 1824. So there is some possibility that the theory about Mexican tamales
> being
> an attempt to recreate European timbales with locally available
> ingredients
> does have some possibility...
>
> The words "tamalli", "tamale" and "timbale" all do sound very much
> alike...
>
> But, I would really prefer that particular theory wasn't true. I do love
> tamales and want to try cuisines that truly originated in various
> countries
> that I visit...


OK, I found a Classical Nahuatl dictionary online. Fray Bernardino de
Sahagún mentioned tamales/tamalli already in 1577, when his "General History
of the Things of New Spain" was probably completed. He gives a list of
various kinds of tamales/tamalli. He also writes, for instance, "the good
people eat tortillas, tamales, honey tamales [or maybe "tamales with
honey"?], honey tortillas, large tortillas, rolled-up tortillas." All that
is written in Nahuatl in his book. Below is the complete entry for
"tamalli," where "Sah" refers to Sahagún.

Now, that's pretty darn pathetic for the person (again, not you!) who
thought up some French connection not to have looked at such an important
work as Sahagún. Even a simple Google search brought me to other pages that
said Sahagún's chronicles noted tamales--and called them such in Nahuatl.

TAMALLI:
Liste de tamales. Sah10,69.
Vendus par le vendeur de fruits. SahSah10,79.
ôntetl tzopêlic tamalli , deux tamales doux.
Dans un rite funéraire. Sah2,136.
in cuahuitl ahnôzo tlachinôlcatl in tlatlaz, in îtln iucciz tamalli , le
bois ou les roseaux à faire du feu brûleront, sur quoi cuiront les tamales.
Sah9,33.
in îxquich cualôni, tlaxcalli, tamalli, neuctamalli, neuctlaxcalli, hueyi
tlaxcalli, tlaxcalmimilli , tout ce qui est bon à manger, les tortillas, les
tamales, les tamales au miel, les tortillas au miel, les grandes tortillas,
les tortillas roulées. Sah8,69.
in chihchîltic tamalli , des tamales rouges. Sah8,39.
nacatlaôyoh tamalli chîlcôzyoh , des tamales de viandes cuits avec du maïs
et du piment jaune. Sah8,37.
quichîhuah tamalli , elles font des tamales.
Est dit de vieilles femmes, ilamatqueh. Sah4,123.
îxquich popoxcahui in tamalli , tous les tamales moisissent - all the
tamales became mouldy. Sah4,122.
Cf. les variétés neuctamalli, xocotamalli, miyhuatamalli, yacacoltamalli,
tenextamalli.
*~ à la forme possédée.
in întamal cencah zan tepitotôn , leurs tamales étaient très petits.
Il s'agit d'offrandes aux figurines des montagnes. Sah2,151.

http://www.ifrance.com/nahuatl/t/nahuatlT.html

Peter

>From: "Peter Dy"

>OK, I found a Classical Nahuatl dictionary online. Fray Bernardino de Sahagún
mentioned tamales/tamalli already in 1577, when his "General History of the
Things of New Spain" was probably completed. He gives a list of various kinds
of tamales/tamalli.

Great research, Peter. I will have to delve further into the "General History"
of Brother Bernardino on other subjects of interest in the Mesoamerican world
of the 16th century...

>He also writes, for instance, "the good people eat tortillas, tamales, honey
tamales [or maybe "tamales with honey"?], honey tortillas, large tortillas,
rolled-up tortillas."

Now you've got me thinking about what kind of chili sauce would go best with
honey to make a sweet and spicy tamale...


# * 0 * #
^

"krusty kritter" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Peter Dy"
>
>>OK, I found a Classical Nahuatl dictionary online. Fray Bernardino de
>>Sahagún
> mentioned tamales/tamalli already in 1577, when his "General History of
> the
> Things of New Spain" was probably completed. He gives a list of various
> kinds
> of tamales/tamalli.
>
> Great research, Peter. I will have to delve further into the "General
> History"
> of Brother Bernardino on other subjects of interest in the Mesoamerican
> world
> of the 16th century...


By the way, the websites I looked at said that the origin of tamales (the
dish) is unknown. So, though the ancient Aztecs had them, we don't know if
they invented them. Since the Aztecs arrived late on the scene of
pre-hispanic Mexican history, I'm guessing other Mexican groups had them
before the Aztecs. According to one website, it seems like the Zapotecas in
eastern Oaxaca call tamales something quite different: "gueta guu'" for
tamales wrapped in banana leaves.

http://www.geocities.com/biyubi/did_vocabulario7.html#g

Peter

The tamale was recorded over 5,000 years ago in precolumbian.

http://www.culinary-cooking-schools-...y_tamales.html

>From: (Hazels65)

>The tamale was recorded over 5,000 years ago in precolumbian.
>http://www.culinary-cooking-schools-...y_tamales.html

Great research, Hazel. The frog and tadpole tamales sound especially tasty, but
I'm holding out for an authentic *gopher tamale*, just like *mi abuelita* never
used to make...

Just kidding...

"There were plain tamales, tamales with red, green, yellow and black chile,
tamales with chocolate, fish tamales, frog, tadpole, mushroom, rabbit, gopher,
turkey, bee, egg, squash blossom, honey, ox, seed and nut tamales. "

That website certainly should inspire some creativity amongst the more
adventurous cooks...




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