FoodBanter.com - OK, here's a challenge:

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- - OK, here's a challenge: (https://www.foodbanter.com/mexican-cooking/136623-ok-heres-challenge.html)

OK, here's a challenge:

I'm reading a fabulous book "1491" by Charles Mann.... there is a statement
that maize will not propagate without human intervention. Further, there is
no genetic antecedent which makes one a believer in Divine Intervention.

Add to this, that maize is really not a full nutrient unless treated with
lie overnight? And who would have had that doctor in chemistry some 6,000
years ago when maize gave birth to the Olmec and Tlatilco cultures?

Wayne... forever in quest of the Garden of Eden in the Americas and why it
was lost. (not to mention a good taco!)

OK, here's a challenge:

"Felipe" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wayne Lundberg" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm reading a fabulous book "1491" by Charles Mann.... there is a
> > statement
> > that maize will not propagate without human intervention. Further, there
> > is
> > no genetic antecedent which makes one a believer in Divine Intervention.
> >
> > Add to this, that maize is really not a full nutrient unless treated
with
> > lie overnight? And who would have had that doctor in chemistry some
6,000
> > years ago when maize gave birth to the Olmec and Tlatilco cultures?
> >
> > Wayne... forever in quest of the Garden of Eden in the Americas and why
it
> > was lost. (not to mention a good taco!)
>
> You're all mixed up. Maize is descended from teosinthe). And you can eat
> it with or without lye process.
>
> you can eat it right off the stalk in fact. wet and good.
>
> los dos felipes
> >

For sure, elotes from street vendors are some of my favorite things to eat
when in Mexico. A sprinkling of chile powder and off you go!

I remember harvesting our maize on the ranch in Veracruz once it had dried
on the stalk, and the beans and squash harvested too. We dumped the dried
ears into a large room and every day we'd take out the dried leaves from the
cob, run the cob through a kind of grinder that rubbed the kernels into a
pan, which went directly to the kitchen where water was added. Then once
heated, lie would be added and left overnight. Next morning onto the metate
to be ground into the most delicisious tortillas on earth!

I can see an advantage of an inpenetrable husk. Ancient Sumarians had to
store their grain in clay pots. No clay pots needed with maize!

Adios!

"Wayne Lundberg" > wrote in message
...
> I'm reading a fabulous book "1491" by Charles Mann.... there is a
> statement
> that maize will not propagate without human intervention. Further, there
> is
> no genetic antecedent which makes one a believer in Divine Intervention.
>
> Add to this, that maize is really not a full nutrient unless treated with
> lie overnight? And who would have had that doctor in chemistry some 6,000
> years ago when maize gave birth to the Olmec and Tlatilco cultures?
>
> Wayne... forever in quest of the Garden of Eden in the Americas and why it
> was lost. (not to mention a good taco!)
>

Wayne, You did not tell us what the challenge is?

Are these posts to encourage debate or just rhetorical? Mann's 1491 is an
interesting read but I did not find any dynamic revelations that have not
been touched on before.

Aside from the Doctor in Chem comment, two omments you make are puzzling as
to what you mean ?
1) "Further, there is no genetic antecedent which makes one a believer
in Divine Intervention". Is this a matter of puncuation or are you saying
a
diety started the crop?
2) "I can see an advantage of an inpenetrable husk. Ancient Sumarians
had to store their grain in clay pots. No clay pots needed with maize!"
Where did
they store the corn, how did they keep the rodents out but most
specifically how did the pre-iron folks nixtamale it if they didn't use a
clay pot? Understand the importance of the transition from baskets to clay
pottery in an early society lifecycle.

BTW, Add lye (as opposed to lie) to your spell checker but I bet the Maya
alkaline solution (Cal) for the Nixtamal process was probably accomplished
more with the good old limestone the Yucatan is built on and less on wood
ash as in the more northern regions where limestone and caliche is not as
prevelent. Once again I say go see Rolly's website, I seem to recall him
having something in the house building section on lime and tamales. Kinda
strange combo, cement and tortillas, huh? ( If you read this Rolly, another
good topic would be to get Herbal/Medicinal remedies in your area
documented) . Wayne, I am sure you have read on Pellagra and how there are
Mexican, Central and South American communities suffereing from this.
Europeans learned this the hard way and perhaps why 90 percent of the
world's corn is being fed to livestoc, was anyway. The Three Sisters( Corn,
Beans and Squash) helped the nutrition base in early Indiginous American
life but were not the panacea you may seek as the centerpiece in your Garden
of Eden.

"Gunner" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wayne Lundberg" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm reading a fabulous book "1491" by Charles Mann.... there is a
> > statement
> > that maize will not propagate without human intervention. Further, there
> > is
> > no genetic antecedent which makes one a believer in Divine Intervention.
> >
> > Add to this, that maize is really not a full nutrient unless treated
with
> > lie overnight? And who would have had that doctor in chemistry some
6,000
> > years ago when maize gave birth to the Olmec and Tlatilco cultures?
> >
> > Wayne... forever in quest of the Garden of Eden in the Americas and why
it
> > was lost. (not to mention a good taco!)
> >
>
>
> Wayne, You did not tell us what the challenge is?
>
> Are these posts to encourage debate or just rhetorical? Mann's 1491 is
an
> interesting read but I did not find any dynamic revelations that have
not
> been touched on before.
>
> Aside from the Doctor in Chem comment, two omments you make are puzzling
as
> to what you mean ?
> 1) "Further, there is no genetic antecedent which makes one a believer
> in Divine Intervention". Is this a matter of puncuation or are you saying
> a
> diety started the crop?
> 2) "I can see an advantage of an inpenetrable husk. Ancient Sumarians
> had to store their grain in clay pots. No clay pots needed with maize!"
> Where did
> they store the corn, how did they keep the rodents out but most
> specifically how did the pre-iron folks nixtamale it if they didn't use a
> clay pot? Understand the importance of the transition from baskets to clay
> pottery in an early society lifecycle.
>
> BTW, Add lye (as opposed to lie) to your spell checker but I bet the Maya
> alkaline solution (Cal) for the Nixtamal process was probably
accomplished
> more with the good old limestone the Yucatan is built on and less on wood
> ash as in the more northern regions where limestone and caliche is not as
> prevelent. Once again I say go see Rolly's website, I seem to recall him
> having something in the house building section on lime and tamales. Kinda
> strange combo, cement and tortillas, huh? ( If you read this Rolly,
another
> good topic would be to get Herbal/Medicinal remedies in your area
> documented) . Wayne, I am sure you have read on Pellagra and how there
are
> Mexican, Central and South American communities suffereing from this.
> Europeans learned this the hard way and perhaps why 90 percent of the
> world's corn is being fed to livestoc, was anyway. The Three Sisters(
Corn,
> Beans and Squash) helped the nutrition base in early Indiginous American
> life but were not the panacea you may seek as the centerpiece in your
Garden
> of Eden.
>
..Good one Gunner! I mention the 'no antecedent' as a quote from the book,
not because of research. My prior studies show a very early corn cob found
in some cave somewhere dating back over 10,000 years - but don't remember
where.

As to the husks to store the grain. I remember we did that in the ranch.
We'd come down from the city as often as possible and would have to rewire
the cotton covered wires on the generator after the rats and mice had their
field days in the machine. But never saw much nibbling on the maize stored
in the storage room at the back of the hacienda. A huge place full of aging
corn in the husk.

Of course the natives had clay... about the same time they discovered
agriculture in Tlatilco, La Venta, Tres Zapotes, etc. But it was apparently
not necessary to have huge pots like in the Crescent Triangle.

As to lye... have been reading Caveman Chemistry and apparently this
substance can be produced without effort, kind of jut let nature do it's
job. Say you have a nice fire going and you keep it going and one day it
rains. So it puts out the fire and the water leeches through the old ash,
and comes out strong with lye, limewater, whatever you call the caustic
stuff used to make soap too.

I guess the real challenge is in imagining how that little itty bitty corn
cob no bigger than a baby's pinkey eventually was hybridized into a meal
sized cob.

It is always a pleasure reading your most informative posts.

Wayne

Here is what Gunner was refering to:

Cal is known chemically as calcium hydroxide. Other common names are
builders' lime and slaked lime. In addition to its uses in building,
it is used in many industrial processes including the making of hominy
and tortillas. It is made from calcium oxide which is also sometimes
called lime, but more commonly quicklime. C. hydroxide is a fairly
harmless while power (gloves are recommended, don't breath the dust),
while C. oxide is a fairly dangerous crystalline rock-like material
that must be handled with care (gloves are a must and eye
protection). With due care and certain adjustment to the process,
quicklime can be used in place of builders' lime, but it rarely is.
The main exception is in the making of whitewash, blanqueo.

Look here to see cal used in making tortillas: http://rollybrook.com/tortillas.htm

Herbal/Medicinal remedies -- interesting idea, but it sure sounds like
an awful lot of work.

"Wayne Lundberg" > wrote in message
...
>
understand now.Thanks.

In looking for that passage I came across The section on Cotton and that
sparked a recall of their Armor suits, got any lead?

"Rolly" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Here is what Gunner was refering to:
>
> Cal is known chemically as calcium hydroxide. Other common names are
> builders' lime and slaked lime. In addition to its uses in building,
> it is used in many industrial processes including the making of hominy
> and tortillas. It is made from calcium oxide which is also sometimes
> called lime, but more commonly quicklime. C. hydroxide is a fairly
> harmless while power (gloves are recommended, don't breath the dust),
> while C. oxide is a fairly dangerous crystalline rock-like material
> that must be handled with care (gloves are a must and eye
> protection). With due care and certain adjustment to the process,
> quicklime can be used in place of builders' lime, but it rarely is.
> The main exception is in the making of whitewash, blanqueo.
>
> Look here to see cal used in making tortillas:
http://rollybrook.com/tortillas.htm
>
> Herbal/Medicinal remedies -- interesting idea, but it sure sounds like
> an awful lot of work.

Thanks!

I wish I had pictures of me behind a pair of oxen plowing the field, then
the growing maize, and then letting it dry in the sun, then harvesting and
putting the cobs in the big storage room on the hacienda, then the graining
process... and of course some of the bare cobs used in the out-house the
peons used. (We had toilet paper!).

As to herbal/medical remedies, you might want to get a start, just for fun,
by ordering Heriberto Garcia Rivas's book "Plantas Curativas Mexicanas" from
Panorama --- a very comprehensive treaty on precolumbian herbs for good
health. It's in Spanish.

And yes... it's a challenge... but what else do you have going for you that
would keep you interested in projects?

Certainly not fixing leaking roofs!

Wayne

>

> And yes... it's a challenge... but what else do you have going for you that
> would keep you interested in projects?
>
> Certainly not fixing leaking roofs!
>
> Wayne

I am engaged in a serious study of the art of the siesta. I have lab
sessions each morning, afternoon, and evening before bedtime. In
fact, it's time for my 2:pm lab session.

Bye.

Love it! Love it!

Me too... but with a few niceties...

My wife is wrapping up her report to the modern dance class of her review of
the multi-stop trolly dance adventure. In a few minutes I will sit with her,
a bowl of totopos and salsas at my side, a burrito on her plate, and watch
the latest telenovela. When it's over, she will take her siesta and I will
continue my lessons in meditation vs. siesta comparisons, succumb to the
siesta - (No Lab!) - and eventually come back to the real world where I will
cook tonight's meal... most likely quesadillas since I must fihish off the
remaining tortillas, refried beans and queso Cotija.

Then we'll watch an old movie on our brand new HDTV set.

But how are you getting to charge your battery if you spend so much time in
siesta-lab?

Wayne

> But how are you getting to charge your battery if you spend so much time in
> siesta-lab?

I assume you are referring to that vile word "exercise" my doctor
keeps ranting about. I get all the exercise I need up and down the
aisles of the grocery store.

Rolly

If it's a Gigante store, say hi to the store manager for me. Then get ready
for special treatment!

"Rolly" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> > But how are you getting to charge your battery if you spend so much time
in
> > siesta-lab?
>
> I assume you are referring to that vile word "exercise" my doctor
> keeps ranting about. I get all the exercise I need up and down the
> aisles of the grocery store.
>
> Rolly
>
>