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Default 1,500 year old Chiles..

from: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0709171645.htm

Source: Smithsonian
Date: July 11, 2007
More on: Agriculture and Food, Ancient Civilizations, Endangered
Plants, Food, Archaeology, Fossils

Ancient Americans Liked It Hot: Mexican Cuisine Traced To 1,500 Years
Ago
Science Daily - One of the world's tastiest and most popular cuisines,
Mexican food also may be one of the oldest.


These chili peppers from the Guila Naquitz cave in Oaxaca Mexico date
to between A.D. 490 and 780, and represent two cultivars or cultivated
types. A Smithsonian scientist analyzed the chili pepper remains and
determined that Pre-Columbian inhabitants of the region hundreds of
years ago enjoyed a spicy fare similar to Mexican cuisine today.
(Credit: Linda Perry, Smithsonian Institution) Plant remains from two
caves in southern Mexico analyzed by a Smithsonian ethnobotanist/
archaeologist and a colleague indicate that as early as 1,500 years
ago, Pre-Columbian inhabitants of the region enjoyed a spicy fare
similar to Mexican cuisine today. The two caves yielded 10 different
cultivars (cultivated varieties) of chili peppers.

"This analysis demonstrates that chilies in Mexican food have been
numerous and complex for a long period of time," said lead author
Linda Perry, of the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History.
"It reveals a great antiquity for the Mexican cuisine that we're
familiar with today."

Perry and Kent V. Flannery, of the University of Michigan, studied
desiccated plant remains from excavations in Guilá Naquitz and
Silvia's Cave, two dry rock shelters near Mitla in the Valley of
Oaxaca, southern Mexico. Guilá Naquitz is famous for its well-
preserved plant remains, dating back to the beginnings of squash
cultivation in Mexico some 10,000 years ago. Arid conditions through
the centuries prevented decay of the crop remains, which include corn,
squash, beans, avocados and chili peppers.

This new study focuses on the two upper layers of ash and debris known
as Zone "A" and "Super-A," spanning the period circa A.D. 500--1500.
Perry was able to distinguish different cultivars among the abundantly
preserved chili peppers, a type of analysis that had not been
completed on ancient Mexican chilies.

Perry found that peppers from Guilá Naquitz included at least seven
different cultivars. Peppers from the smaller sample in Silvia's cave
represented three cultivars.

It is unknown whether the cultivars found in the cave correspond to
modern varieties, or if they were types that died out after the
arrival of Europeans in Mexico. Perry said one looks like a Tabasco
pepper and another like a cayenne pepper, but it is difficult to know
how closely related they are to modern varieties without a genetic
analysis.

"What was interesting to me was that we were able to determine that
they were using the peppers both dried and fresh," Perry said.
(Chilies broken while fresh had a recognizable breakage pattern.) "It
shows us that ancient Mexican food was very much like today. They
would have used fresh peppers in salsas or in immediate preparation,
and they would have used the dried peppers to toss into stews or to
grind up into sauces like moles."

During the period circa A.D. 500--1500, the caves served as temporary
camps and storage areas for farmers from Mitla--a major town on the
river of the same name--whose cultivated fields evidently extended to
the slopes of the piedmont below Guilá Naquitz and Silvia's Cave. The
Zapotec-speaking people planted crops in several environmental zones--
river bottoms, piedmont and mountains-- probably as a way of buffering
risk; it also added variety to the diet.

"In the cave deposits, we can see excellent documentation for the
sophistication of the agriculture and the cuisine at this point in
time," Perry said. "You don't grow seven different kinds of chilies
unless you're cooking some pretty interesting food."

The study will be published the week of July 9 in the online edition
of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Note: This story has been adapted from a news release issued by
Smithsonian.

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wrote:
> from:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0709171645.htm
>
> Source: Smithsonian
> Date: July 11, 2007
> More on: Agriculture and Food, Ancient Civilizations, Endangered
> Plants, Food, Archaeology, Fossils
>
> Ancient Americans Liked It Hot: Mexican Cuisine Traced To 1,500 Years
> Ago



1,500 years ago? How about these guys...

Archaeologists in Mexico have discovered evidence that humans were
chomping on wild chiles, called chiltepins, during prehistoric times —
as far back as 7500 B.C.

Chiltepins Rock! We don't need no stinkin Tabasco peppers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiltepin
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Sonoran Dude wrote:
> wrote:
>> from:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0709171645.htm
>>
>> Source: Smithsonian Date: July 11, 2007 More on: Agriculture and
>> Food, Ancient Civilizations, Endangered Plants, Food, Archaeology,
>> Fossils
>>
>> Ancient Americans Liked It Hot: Mexican Cuisine Traced To 1,500 Years
>> Ago

>
>
> 1,500 years ago? How about these guys...
>
> Archaeologists in Mexico have discovered evidence that humans were
> chomping on wild chiles, called chiltepins, during prehistoric times
> — as far back as 7500 B.C.
>
> Chiltepins Rock! We don't need no stinkin Tabasco peppers.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiltepin


"The Tarahumara Indians of the Sonoran Desert in Mexico believe that
chiltepins were the greatest protection against the evils of sorcery.
One of their proverbs holds that 'The man who does not eat chile is
immediately suspected of being a sorcerer.'"

Interesting!


--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
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On Jul 10, 7:02?am, wrote:

> "It shows us that ancient Mexican food was very much like today. They
> would have used fresh peppers in salsas or in immediate preparation,
> and they would have used the dried peppers to toss into stews or to
> grind up into sauces like moles."


Archaeologists would be far more likely to find a petrified taco than
a fossilized guiso. ;-)


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Default 1,500 year old Chiles..

In article >,
Sonoran Dude > wrote:

> wrote:
> > from:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0709171645.htm
> >
> > Source: Smithsonian
> > Date: July 11, 2007
> > More on: Agriculture and Food, Ancient Civilizations, Endangered
> > Plants, Food, Archaeology, Fossils
> >
> > Ancient Americans Liked It Hot: Mexican Cuisine Traced To 1,500 Years
> > Ago

>
>
> 1,500 years ago? How about these guys...
>
> Archaeologists in Mexico have discovered evidence that humans were
> chomping on wild chiles, called chiltepins, during prehistoric times ‹
> as far back as 7500 B.C.
>
> Chiltepins Rock! We don't need no stinkin Tabasco peppers.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiltepin


I have a rather large "wild" bush of those now that I've been babying
and keeping alive for at least 10 years. :-) I need to take pics of it.

I thought it had died the end of last fall as the upper part got
"crispy" dry but refrained from pulling it up.

This spring, it sprouted fresh branches off the base and is as large as
ever. It's a good 3 ft. tall and 3 ft. across.

I feed most of them to my Cockatoo as they are an excellent sources of
vitamin C and trace minerals. I can't always get her to eat Citrus
fruits.

She loves them! ;-)

It's looking lovely with a baby crop of peppers this year.

2 years ago, I allowed someone to come and pick the bush as all of his
wild volunteers locally had vanished. I've used a few for cooking but
my favorite way to use them is to dump a bunch into white vinegar, and
use the extract for salads and fish.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson


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Default 1,500 year old Chiles..

On Jul 11, 7:53 am, Omelet > wrote:
> In article >,
> Sonoran Dude > wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > from:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0709171645.htm

>
> > > Source: Smithsonian
> > > Date: July 11, 2007
> > > More on: Agriculture and Food, Ancient Civilizations, Endangered
> > > Plants, Food, Archaeology, Fossils

>
> > > Ancient Americans Liked It Hot: Mexican Cuisine Traced To 1,500 Years
> > > Ago

>
> > 1,500 years ago? How about these guys...

>
> > Archaeologists in Mexico have discovered evidence that humans were
> > chomping on wild chiles, called chiltepins, during prehistoric times €¹
> > as far back as 7500 B.C.

>
> > Chiltepins Rock! We don't need no stinkin Tabasco peppers.

>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiltepin

>
> I have a rather large "wild" bush of those now that I've been babying
> and keeping alive for at least 10 years. :-) I need to take pics of it.
>
> I thought it had died the end of last fall as the upper part got
> "crispy" dry but refrained from pulling it up.
>
> This spring, it sprouted fresh branches off the base and is as large as
> ever. It's a good 3 ft. tall and 3 ft. across.


We had a huge plant in a huge pot on the stair landing of our
apartment in Hudson, FL. It easily survived the "winter" there.
>
> I feed most of them to my Cockatoo as they are an excellent sources of
> vitamin C and trace minerals. I can't always get her to eat Citrus
> fruits.
>
> She loves them! ;-)


Birds do not have receptors or whatever that perceive capsaicin as an
irritant.
>
> It's looking lovely with a baby crop of peppers this year.
>
> 2 years ago, I allowed someone to come and pick the bush as all of his
> wild volunteers locally had vanished. I've used a few for cooking but
> my favorite way to use them is to dump a bunch into white vinegar, and
> use the extract for salads and fish.
> --
> Peace, Om


--Bryan

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Omelet wrote:
> In article >,
> Sonoran Dude > wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>>> from:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0709171645.htm
>>>
>>> Source: Smithsonian
>>> Date: July 11, 2007
>>> More on: Agriculture and Food, Ancient Civilizations, Endangered
>>> Plants, Food, Archaeology, Fossils
>>>
>>> Ancient Americans Liked It Hot: Mexican Cuisine Traced To 1,500 Years
>>> Ago

>>
>> 1,500 years ago? How about these guys...
>>
>> Archaeologists in Mexico have discovered evidence that humans were
>> chomping on wild chiles, called chiltepins, during prehistoric times ‹
>> as far back as 7500 B.C.
>>
>> Chiltepins Rock! We don't need no stinkin Tabasco peppers.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiltepin

>
> I have a rather large "wild" bush of those now that I've been babying
> and keeping alive for at least 10 years. :-) I need to take pics of it.
>
> I thought it had died the end of last fall as the upper part got
> "crispy" dry but refrained from pulling it up.
>
> This spring, it sprouted fresh branches off the base and is as large as
> ever. It's a good 3 ft. tall and 3 ft. across.
>
> I feed most of them to my Cockatoo as they are an excellent sources of
> vitamin C and trace minerals. I can't always get her to eat Citrus
> fruits.
>
> She loves them! ;-)
>
> It's looking lovely with a baby crop of peppers this year.
>
> 2 years ago, I allowed someone to come and pick the bush as all of his
> wild volunteers locally had vanished. I've used a few for cooking but
> my favorite way to use them is to dump a bunch into white vinegar, and
> use the extract for salads and fish.


Start throwing your bird poop out into soil around the yard. The only
way to germinate chiltepin seed is to have it pass through a bird or
treated with chemicals.

Soon you may have a little chiltepin farm going.

My tepin bush is one I found on the other side of town and successfully
transplanted it to my backyard. They will be ready to pick around November.

Parrots love these little peppers too.
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Default 1,500 year old Chiles..

In article . com>,
"Bobo Bonobo®" > wrote:

> > This spring, it sprouted fresh branches off the base and is as large as
> > ever. It's a good 3 ft. tall and 3 ft. across.

>
> We had a huge plant in a huge pot on the stair landing of our
> apartment in Hudson, FL. It easily survived the "winter" there.


Beautiful aren't they?
I've never tried to grow one, I just take care of wild volunteers.

> >
> > I feed most of them to my Cockatoo as they are an excellent sources of
> > vitamin C and trace minerals. I can't always get her to eat Citrus
> > fruits.
> >
> > She loves them! ;-)

>
> Birds do not have receptors or whatever that perceive capsaicin as an
> irritant.


I know. And that is not a bad thing!
Some people use Cayenne to keep squirrels out of the bird feeders as it
does not bother the birds.

>
> --Bryan

--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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In article >,
Sonoran Dude > wrote:

> Start throwing your bird poop out into soil around the yard. The only
> way to germinate chiltepin seed is to have it pass through a bird or
> treated with chemicals.
>
> Soon you may have a little chiltepin farm going.
>
> My tepin bush is one I found on the other side of town and successfully
> transplanted it to my backyard. They will be ready to pick around November.
>
> Parrots love these little peppers too.


I'd have to make a special effort, but that's not a bad idea!

Freya is a Goffin's cockatoo and was a "stray". We've cared for her now
since 1998 when she flew into my back yard and ate grain off the ground
with my chickens.

She was horribly destructive so we finally built her an aviary rather
than trying to re-home her or worse, driving her insane by locking her
in even the largest parrot cage on the market. :-(.

So many people that keep these birds for "decoration" are so f-ing
clueless! There is nothing sadder than an insane, neglected parrot that
plucks itself bare out of boredom.

That is not happening here!

She is a very loving bird and is a very good friend, but a bit
demanding. :-) But that's ok.

Her "cage" is 8' long by 4' wide and 6' tall and lined with pine chips
on the floor. It's walk in so I can go in there and spend lovey time
with her.

LOTS of mostly home made toys to keep her occupied.

Fascinating bird...

I've learned from her that many people are really not prepared to offer
some parrots what they really need in the way of attention. They can be
a real commitment...

Anyway, I'm wandering. :-)

I'm not sure, but I guess I could try planting some of her "deposits"
from under her favorite roosting spots, but these can also be propagated
from air layered or carefully cared for cuttings.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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"Omelet" > wrote in message
news
> In article >,
> Sonoran Dude > wrote:
>
> > Start throwing your bird poop out into soil around the yard. The only
> > way to germinate chiltepin seed is to have it pass through a bird or
> > treated with chemicals.
> >
> > Soon you may have a little chiltepin farm going.
> >
> > My tepin bush is one I found on the other side of town and successfully
> > transplanted it to my backyard. They will be ready to pick around

November.
> >
> > Parrots love these little peppers too.

>
> I'd have to make a special effort, but that's not a bad idea!
>
> Freya is a Goffin's cockatoo and was a "stray". We've cared for her now
> since 1998 when she flew into my back yard and ate grain off the ground
> with my chickens.
>
> She was horribly destructive so we finally built her an aviary rather
> than trying to re-home her or worse, driving her insane by locking her
> in even the largest parrot cage on the market. :-(.
>
> So many people that keep these birds for "decoration" are so f-ing
> clueless! There is nothing sadder than an insane, neglected parrot that
> plucks itself bare out of boredom.
>
> That is not happening here!
>
> She is a very loving bird and is a very good friend, but a bit
> demanding. :-) But that's ok.
>
> Her "cage" is 8' long by 4' wide and 6' tall and lined with pine chips
> on the floor. It's walk in so I can go in there and spend lovey time
> with her.
>
> LOTS of mostly home made toys to keep her occupied.
>
> Fascinating bird...
>
> I've learned from her that many people are really not prepared to offer
> some parrots what they really need in the way of attention. They can be
> a real commitment...
>
> Anyway, I'm wandering. :-)
>
> I'm not sure, but I guess I could try planting some of her "deposits"
> from under her favorite roosting spots, but these can also be propagated
> from air layered or carefully cared for cuttings.
> --
> Peace, Om
>
> Remove _ to validate e-mails.
>
> "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack

Nicholson

I'll never order parrot soup again after reading your post!

Wow!





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In article
>,
"Wayne Lundberg" > wrote:

> I'll never order parrot soup again after reading your post!
>
> Wow!


Oh.

My gods...

Parrots are nearly sentient.

I'm no vegetarian but I could never bring myself to eat a parrot after
associating with them...
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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Omelet wrote:

> Beautiful aren't they?
> I've never tried to grow one, I just take care of wild volunteers.


>> --Bryan


Mine is hardly beautiful unless it is harvesting season. It is a very
interesting plant though with precise geometric angles to the branching.
I have watered mine every summer but this year I'm just letting nature
takes its course and see if there is a difference in the flavor.

There is a domesticated variety here at a Tucson Botanical park and I
bought one for a friend several miles away so not to cross pollinate my
perfect tasting wild one. He is a master gardener but genetics have
everything to do with flavor. His is bitter and much hotter than the wild.
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Blinky the Shark > wrote:

>Sonoran Dude wrote:


>> wrote:


>>> from:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0709171645.htm
>>>
>>> Source: Smithsonian Date: July 11, 2007 More on: Agriculture and
>>> Food, Ancient Civilizations, Endangered Plants, Food, Archaeology,
>>> Fossils
>>>
>>> Ancient Americans Liked It Hot: Mexican Cuisine Traced To 1,500 Years
>>> Ago


>> Archaeologists in Mexico have discovered evidence that humans were
>> chomping on wild chiles, called chiltepins, during prehistoric times
>> — as far back as 7500 B.C.


>"The Tarahumara Indians of the Sonoran Desert in Mexico believe that
>chiltepins were the greatest protection against the evils of sorcery.
>One of their proverbs holds that 'The man who does not eat chile is
>immediately suspected of being a sorcerer.'"


On the other hand, in warfare one tactic of the ancient southwestern
Indians was to toss burning chiles into a kiva, killing the
persons inside with the fumes.

Steve

>Interesting!
>
>
>--
>Blinky RLU 297263
>Killing all posts from Google Groups
>The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html



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On Jul 11, 12:56?pm, Omelet > wrote:

> Parrots are nearly sentient.


Plants and many invertebrate animals are *sentient*, they react to
heat, light, or pain, and some people even claim that if you talk to
plants they grow better. Maybe it's the CO2 in their breath.

Parrots are *sapient*. They can learn non-natural behaviors.

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Steve Pope wrote:
> Blinky the Shark > wrote:
>
>>Sonoran Dude wrote:

>
>>> wrote:

>
>>>> from:
>>>>
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0709171645.htm
>>>>
>>>> Source: Smithsonian Date: July 11, 2007 More on: Agriculture and
>>>> Food, Ancient Civilizations, Endangered Plants, Food, Archaeology,
>>>> Fossils
>>>>
>>>> Ancient Americans Liked It Hot: Mexican Cuisine Traced To 1,500
>>>> Years Ago

>
>>> Archaeologists in Mexico have discovered evidence that humans were
>>> chomping on wild chiles, called chiltepins, during prehistoric times
>>> — as far back as 7500 B.C.

>
>>"The Tarahumara Indians of the Sonoran Desert in Mexico believe that
>>chiltepins were the greatest protection against the evils of sorcery.
>>One of their proverbs holds that 'The man who does not eat chile is
>>immediately suspected of being a sorcerer.'"

>
> On the other hand, in warfare one tactic of the ancient southwestern
> Indians was to toss burning chiles into a kiva, killing the persons
> inside with the fumes.


I had some college classes in a kiva. That was the name of the round,
three-tiered lecture hall in the center section of a couple of the dorms
at Michigan State University in the late sixties.


--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html


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Omelet wrote:


> Freya is a Goffin's cockatoo and was a "stray". We've cared for her now
> since 1998 when she flew into my back yard and ate grain off the ground
> with my chickens.
>
> She was horribly destructive so we finally built her an aviary rather
> than trying to re-home her or worse, driving her insane by locking her
> in even the largest parrot cage on the market. :-(.
>
> So many people that keep these birds for "decoration" are so f-ing
> clueless! There is nothing sadder than an insane, neglected parrot that
> plucks itself bare out of boredom.
>
> That is not happening here!
>
> She is a very loving bird and is a very good friend, but a bit
> demanding. :-) But that's ok.
>
> Her "cage" is 8' long by 4' wide and 6' tall and lined with pine chips
> on the floor. It's walk in so I can go in there and spend lovey time
> with her.
>
> LOTS of mostly home made toys to keep her occupied.
>
> Fascinating bird...
>
> I've learned from her that many people are really not prepared to offer
> some parrots what they really need in the way of attention. They can be
> a real commitment...
>
> Anyway, I'm wandering. :-)
>
> I'm not sure, but I guess I could try planting some of her "deposits"
> from under her favorite roosting spots, but these can also be propagated
> from air layered or carefully cared for cuttings.


Parrots have been known to escape, but I have a feeling that Freya's
former owners could not make the committment that raising a bird
requires, so they turned her loose. You are doing a wonderful job
giving her love and care, and creating a habitat for Freya to live
comfortably. There should be a special place in Heaven for you.

Becca
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On Jul 11, 5:14�pm, Becca > wrote:
> Parrots have been known to escape, but I have a feeling that Freya's
> former owners could not make the committment that raising a bird
> requires, so they turned her loose. *


There are flocks of parrots and parakeets all over southern
California, you can hear them screeching.

Nanday conures compete with native downy woodpeckers for cavities in
sycamore trees to nest in, and noisy flocks of yellow-chevroned
parakeets hang out in the washingtonia palm trees and eat the fruit of
non-native ornamental silk floss trees.

The most exotic escaped tropical bird I ever saw was a chestnut billed
toucan that was making a noise like a gate with a rusty hinge. It was
sitting in the top of a pine tree.

Who do you report something like that to, the dog catcher?

"Sorry. We don't do toucans, Maybe you should call Department of
Homeland Security?"

Keeping a bird or an animal in a cage for one's own pleasure and then
pretending that the creature is a "friend" is a very selfish and cruel
action, in my mind.

A neighbor put up a sign offering a reward for the return of his
beloved "Tony", a yellow cockatiel who had escaped.

I know what happened to Tony. My cat ate him.

How could I apologize for my cat doing what came naturally to a bird
that wasn't supposed to be looking for birdseed on top of my garage?

Better Tony's owner should never know what happened to Tony. Let him
imagine that Tony found a new home...

I would occasionally see an escaped peach faced lovebird or one with a
blue head, and of course there are escaped parakeets all over the
place.

One time I saw a European goldfinch sitting on a neighbor's fence.

I saw a cockatiel flying with the pigeons and wondering if it would
survive the winter.

I used to see a guy who owned a hyacinth macaw allowing it to fly free
in the Hollywood hills. I asked him if he wasn't afraid that the
native red-tailed hawks that hung out in the canyons wouldn't kill his
macaw. He claimed that the macaw could take care of itself.

I enjoyed watched the macaw do barrel rolls and loops as it flew down
the canyons.

It was very maneuverable and interesting to watch. But it didn't
belong in that environment.


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Rechazador de Disparates > wrote:

>There are flocks of parrots and parakeets all over southern
>California, you can hear them screeching.


Same here in Berkeley. There is one quarter often visible
in West Berkeley, and sporadically elsewhere in town -- maybe
the same individuals doing some local traveling, I'm not certain.

Steve
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On 2007-07-12, Rechazador de Disparates > wrote:

> It was very maneuverable and interesting to watch. But it didn't
> belong in that environment.


Neither do pet cats.

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/cats.htm

nb
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On Jul 11, 7:12?pm, notbob > wrote:
> On 2007-07-12, Rechazador de Disparates > wrote:
>
> > It was very maneuverable and interesting to watch. But it didn't
> > belong in that environment.

>
> Neither do pet cats.


My cat wasn't soaring in the thermals above the Hollywood hills, she
was in her own backyard.

Tony the yellow cockatiel was the species that was most out of place
in the urban environment.



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On 2007-07-12, Rechazador de Disparates > wrote:

> was in her own backyard.


Your cat owns a backyard? Does it pay taxes? Has it been posted no
trespassing to songbirds? Does the environment and related ecosystems
recognize her ownership rights? I know if people kill certain bird
species, they can be charged. Why not cats? If cats kill birds, can
people kill cats? Just some thoughts I have.

nb
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On Jul 12, 8:17 am, notbob > wrote:
> On 2007-07-12, Rechazador de Disparates > wrote:
>
> > was in her own backyard.

>
> Your cat owns a backyard? Does it pay taxes? Has it been posted no
> trespassing to songbirds?


No. No. Why would the cat want to do that? Better to post a sign
that says something like, "Free birdseed," to lure them in.

> Does the environment and related ecosystems
> recognize her ownership rights?


Do "the environment and related ecosystems recognize" HUMAN "ownership
rights?"

>I know if people kill certain bird
> species, they can be charged. Why not cats?


If a law says so, a cat could be considered a "nuisance" for killing
songbirds, just as it could be for digging up Mrs. Jones' daisies.

> If cats kill birds, can people kill cats?


When we lived in Florida, a cat attacked me. I would have taken it
into the woods, snapped its neck and buried it in the sandy soil,
which may have been illegal. My wife insisted that I get a cat trap,
then take the captured cat to the animal control folks and pay $25 for
THEM to kill it. Same result. Dead cat, but I was out $25 bucks.

> Just some thoughts I have.
>
> nb


--Bryan

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On Jul 12, 6:17�am, notbob > wrote:

> Your cat owns a backyard? *Does it pay taxes? *Has it been posted no
> trespassing to songbirds? *Does the environment and related ecosystems
> recognize her ownership rights? *I know if people kill certain bird
> species, they can be charged. *Why not cats? *If cats kill birds, can
> people kill cats? *Just some thoughts I have.


Don't bogart that joint, my friend. Pass it over to me.

I have a rational respect for birds and the environment, I don't shoot
birds for "sport" but I don't do the backyard bird count or the
Christmas bird count either.

And I don't believe that cats are satanic.

My great grandfather's cousin was with Audubon on his expedition up
the Missouri river in the 1840's. The foliage in many of the paintings
you see in Audubon's folios painted by him, and Audubon only painted
the birds.

Audubon named a previously unknown Anthus species after my relative,
just as he named other birds after his other friends.

I have seen the rare pipit locally, but I didn't *** in my pants over
it.


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On 2007-07-12, Rechazador de Disparates > wrote:

> And I don't believe that cats are satanic.


I don't either. I just believe there's too damn many of 'em.

nb
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On Jul 12, 6:34�am, Bobo Bonobo� > wrote:

> No. No. *Why would the cat want to do that? *Better to post a sign
> that says something like, "Free birdseed," to lure them in.


My cat used to catch the occasional scrub jay that came down to eat
her cat food, sometimes she would catch an English sparrow. One time
she was stalking a
starling that had fallen out of its nest and a neighbor freaked over
the apparent cruelty of a cat hunting an invasive alien species.

People get all emotional about birds. That's strange. Birds don't get
all emotional
about humans, they try to escape from human company.

That's why they have to be kept in cages. Human-bird relationships are
unnatural.

But my cat thinks I'm her mother. She wants to be with me. She doesn't
have to be caged, she can hang around her back yard until it's time to
be fed.



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In article >,
Sonoran Dude > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
>
> > Beautiful aren't they?
> > I've never tried to grow one, I just take care of wild volunteers.

>
> >> --Bryan

>
> Mine is hardly beautiful unless it is harvesting season. It is a very
> interesting plant though with precise geometric angles to the branching.
> I have watered mine every summer but this year I'm just letting nature
> takes its course and see if there is a difference in the flavor.
>
> There is a domesticated variety here at a Tucson Botanical park and I
> bought one for a friend several miles away so not to cross pollinate my
> perfect tasting wild one. He is a master gardener but genetics have
> everything to do with flavor. His is bitter and much hotter than the wild.


That does not sound good...

My wild ones are sweet with just enough heat to satisfy.
I was very pleased that this bush came back! I honestly thought that it
died last fall as the branches were crunchy, but I thought I'd leave it
be and give it a chance.

I'm glad I did:

http://i9.tinypic.com/4pds0fr.jpg

Pics taken about 1 hour or less ago.

Here you can see the size of the bush next to a 5 gallon bucket over to
the right.

http://i14.tinypic.com/4oubdpy.jpg

You can see the dead growth in the background. I was afraid to trim it
off because with these bushes, sometimes it's hard to tell and new
growth will spring out from what looks like dead branches.

This bush is several years old now and produces hundreds of fruits per
year about the size of my pinky fingernail. :-) The Cocaktoo is the
lucky recipient of many of them. Good source of C which birds need.
--
Peace, Om

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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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In article .com>,
Rechazador de Disparates > wrote:

> On Jul 11, 12:56?pm, Omelet > wrote:
>
> > Parrots are nearly sentient.

>
> Plants and many invertebrate animals are *sentient*, they react to
> heat, light, or pain, and some people even claim that if you talk to
> plants they grow better. Maybe it's the CO2 in their breath.
>
> Parrots are *sapient*. They can learn non-natural behaviors.


Okay. :-) Thanks.

Some birds even learn limited tool use.
--
Peace, Om

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In article >,
Becca > wrote:

> > Fascinating bird...
> >
> > I've learned from her that many people are really not prepared to offer
> > some parrots what they really need in the way of attention. They can be
> > a real commitment...
> >
> > Anyway, I'm wandering. :-)
> >
> > I'm not sure, but I guess I could try planting some of her "deposits"
> > from under her favorite roosting spots, but these can also be propagated
> > from air layered or carefully cared for cuttings.

>
> Parrots have been known to escape, but I have a feeling that Freya's
> former owners could not make the committment that raising a bird
> requires, so they turned her loose. You are doing a wonderful job
> giving her love and care, and creating a habitat for Freya to live
> comfortably. There should be a special place in Heaven for you.
>
> Becca


Thanks... :-) I'm just glad I had the space to do it.
I had an Aluminum alloy sun room addition built several years ago. 3"
thick foam insulated walls with double glass storm windows and it's own
foundation, Window AC and floor heaters as needed. Cost me around 16K.
It opens off the Kitchen with French doors.

Her Aviary was actually less expensive to build than even the largest
commercial parrot cages. Set us back only around $400.00 for chain link
fencing poles and 1" x 2" aviary wire. Dad and I built it together. She
is happier out there anyway as there is more too look at. LOTS more
windows!

According to her band, she was around 6 months old when she came to us.
It's also possible that some moron did not understand the necessity of
wing clipping. Granted, once she had the aviary to live in, I've also
stopped wing clipping as she is secure... but I used to do it and got
her to play and make a "game" out of it.

They love to play.

I just can't stand seeing birds bought and used as "decorations" and
status symbols. There is an entire network of parrot rescue facilities
but most parrots that start self-mutilating never do recover. ;-(

I'm glad that Freya never has done that!

BTW, infant chewing toys are a great way to save money on parrot toys!
They work very well, especially the "busier" ones if you know what I
mean? Ones with lots of beads.

http://i19.tinypic.com/6g8ujq0.jpg

Her "home".

http://i18.tinypic.com/5zqibkx.jpg

Playing "Eagle bird". :-)

I don't know what the hell her previous "owner" did to her in the short
time they had her, but it took me a solid 8 years to get her to "step
up" and trust hand sitting. I probably could have done it a lot faster
if I'd spent more time at it, but I did not want to push her.

These birds have LONG memories.

It was strange. She'd come to me and climb up and sit on my chest to be
cuddled and even hugged so she obviously trusted me, but she was
terrified to sit on hands, or shoulders. Even now it makes her a bit
nervous, but she's learning...

I'm no bird expert, but Freya has taught me a lot. I "listen" to my pets.

The most amusing thing about trying to hand-train her was that I
accidently taught her to "shake hands" on command ("Shake a paw!")
during the process. I was trying to get her used to having her feet
handled. It's funny as all get out. :-)

Her vocabulary is not extensive, maybe 20 words or so if you include her
animal sounds (She meows, clucks and crows).
--
Peace, Om

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In article . com>,
Rechazador de Disparates > wrote:

> Keeping a bird or an animal in a cage for one's own pleasure and then
> pretending that the creature is a "friend" is a very selfish and cruel
> action, in my mind.


If you know what you are doing, parrots make very good friends... but
that friendship incurs a certain level of responsibility.

It's unfortunate that most people don't even know how to take proper
care of a dog, much less a parrot.
--
Peace, Om

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In article . com>,
Rechazador de Disparates > wrote:

> A neighbor put up a sign offering a reward for the return of his
> beloved "Tony", a yellow cockatiel who had escaped.
>
> I know what happened to Tony. My cat ate him.
>
> How could I apologize for my cat doing what came naturally to a bird
> that wasn't supposed to be looking for birdseed on top of my garage?
>
> Better Tony's owner should never know what happened to Tony. Let him
> imagine that Tony found a new home...


You owe nobody an apology. Cats are cats are cats. I never even scolded
my cats for catching birds, but I did bell them. ;-)

My cats are no longer allowed outdoors, but that's for THEIR protection
any more!
--
Peace, Om

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In article >,
notbob > wrote:

> On 2007-07-12, Rechazador de Disparates > wrote:
>
> > It was very maneuverable and interesting to watch. But it didn't
> > belong in that environment.

>
> Neither do pet cats.
>
> http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/cats.htm
>
> nb


Cats are perfectly capable of adjusting to being strictly indoors.

Mine have... Only the oldest ones will go out the door if it accidently
gets left ajar, but they come right back in now. The ones that have
never been outdoors don't even try.
--
Peace, Om

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Omelet wrote:
> In article >,
> Sonoran Dude > wrote:



> You can see the dead growth in the background. I was afraid to trim it
> off because with these bushes, sometimes it's hard to tell and new
> growth will spring out from what looks like dead branches.
>
> This bush is several years old now and produces hundreds of fruits per
> year about the size of my pinky fingernail. :-) The Cocaktoo is the
> lucky recipient of many of them. Good source of C which birds need.


Nice looking bush... you must be in a cooler climate to have fruit this
early in the season. The Sonoran monsoon rains are rumbling in the
distance as I type and we should have showers every night for the next
few weeks. My bush will transform to twice it's size and blossom around
September and the small fruit will be ready by Nov-Dec.

This guy was only about 8 inches tall when I found him. I didn't think
he made the cross-town trip in the middle of the summer heat 3 years
ago. It looked like he was totally dead but put him in the same distance
from a north facing wall where I found him and he was alive and kicking
in a week. I've never fertilized him other than letting the pack-rats
nest under him and the occasional dead bird carcass from messy owls and
hawks. My soil is native desert so he seems to be happy.

I know it's time to pick when I see Red Cardinals hanging out on the
wall behind the bush. As you can see I don't protect him from freezing,
don't trim him much unless a dead branch is in the way of my picking and
don't baby him. The flavor from this fruit is unbelievably delicious
with a thrilling burn that is nothing like the imported chiltepin from
Chihuahua. I collect about 1 or 2 oz of chiltepin and they last me most
of the year. Looking at the size of him now I should double that
quantity this year. At this time there is not one single blossom even
beginning to bud.

Here is the link to my ugly bush... It's about 108 degrees in the
shade... just the way he likes it. I'm not sure what sex he is but his
name is George.

http://www.desktoptrouble.com/chiltepin.jpg
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In article >,
Sonoran Dude > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Sonoran Dude > wrote:

>
>
> > You can see the dead growth in the background. I was afraid to trim it
> > off because with these bushes, sometimes it's hard to tell and new
> > growth will spring out from what looks like dead branches.
> >
> > This bush is several years old now and produces hundreds of fruits per
> > year about the size of my pinky fingernail. :-) The Cocaktoo is the
> > lucky recipient of many of them. Good source of C which birds need.

>
> Nice looking bush... you must be in a cooler climate to have fruit this
> early in the season. The Sonoran monsoon rains are rumbling in the
> distance as I type and we should have showers every night for the next
> few weeks. My bush will transform to twice it's size and blossom around
> September and the small fruit will be ready by Nov-Dec.


Central Texas.

I will wait until they turn red tho'. I generally get ripe fruit late
summer/early fall for about 4 to 6 weeks.

>
> This guy was only about 8 inches tall when I found him. I didn't think
> he made the cross-town trip in the middle of the summer heat 3 years
> ago. It looked like he was totally dead but put him in the same distance
> from a north facing wall where I found him and he was alive and kicking
> in a week. I've never fertilized him other than letting the pack-rats
> nest under him and the occasional dead bird carcass from messy owls and
> hawks. My soil is native desert so he seems to be happy.
>
> I know it's time to pick when I see Red Cardinals hanging out on the
> wall behind the bush. As you can see I don't protect him from freezing,
> don't trim him much unless a dead branch is in the way of my picking and
> don't baby him. The flavor from this fruit is unbelievably delicious
> with a thrilling burn that is nothing like the imported chiltepin from
> Chihuahua. I collect about 1 or 2 oz of chiltepin and they last me most
> of the year. Looking at the size of him now I should double that
> quantity this year. At this time there is not one single blossom even
> beginning to bud.
>
> Here is the link to my ugly bush... It's about 108 degrees in the
> shade... just the way he likes it. I'm not sure what sex he is but his
> name is George.
>
> http://www.desktoptrouble.com/chiltepin.jpg


They are hermaphroditic. :-)
He/she is a very nice plant! Just needs a bit more moisture it seems.

I think mine looks this nice as we've been getting tons of rain, and I
amended the soil around it last year with shovelings from what used to
be an emu pen.

I never neglect my bush.

<eg>
--
Peace, Om

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On Jul 13, 12:13 pm, Omelet > wrote:
> In article >,
> Sonoran Dude > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Omelet wrote:
> > > In article >,
> > > Sonoran Dude > wrote:

>
> > > You can see the dead growth in the background. I was afraid to trim it
> > > off because with these bushes, sometimes it's hard to tell and new
> > > growth will spring out from what looks like dead branches.

>
> > > This bush is several years old now and produces hundreds of fruits per
> > > year about the size of my pinky fingernail. :-) The Cocaktoo is the
> > > lucky recipient of many of them. Good source of C which birds need.

>
> > Nice looking bush... you must be in a cooler climate to have fruit this
> > early in the season. The Sonoran monsoon rains are rumbling in the
> > distance as I type and we should have showers every night for the next
> > few weeks. My bush will transform to twice it's size and blossom around
> > September and the small fruit will be ready by Nov-Dec.

>
> Central Texas.
>
> I will wait until they turn red tho'. I generally get ripe fruit late
> summer/early fall for about 4 to 6 weeks.
>
>
>
>
>
> > This guy was only about 8 inches tall when I found him. I didn't think
> > he made the cross-town trip in the middle of the summer heat 3 years
> > ago. It looked like he was totally dead but put him in the same distance
> > from a north facing wall where I found him and he was alive and kicking
> > in a week. I've never fertilized him other than letting the pack-rats
> > nest under him and the occasional dead bird carcass from messy owls and
> > hawks. My soil is native desert so he seems to be happy.

>
> > I know it's time to pick when I see Red Cardinals hanging out on the
> > wall behind the bush. As you can see I don't protect him from freezing,
> > don't trim him much unless a dead branch is in the way of my picking and
> > don't baby him. The flavor from this fruit is unbelievably delicious
> > with a thrilling burn that is nothing like the imported chiltepin from
> > Chihuahua. I collect about 1 or 2 oz of chiltepin and they last me most
> > of the year. Looking at the size of him now I should double that
> > quantity this year. At this time there is not one single blossom even
> > beginning to bud.

>
> > Here is the link to my ugly bush... It's about 108 degrees in the
> > shade... just the way he likes it. I'm not sure what sex he is but his
> > name is George.

>
> >http://www.desktoptrouble.com/chiltepin.jpg

>
> They are hermaphroditic. :-)
> He/she is a very nice plant! Just needs a bit more moisture it seems.
>
> I think mine looks this nice as we've been getting tons of rain, and I
> amended the soil around it last year with shovelings from what used to
> be an emu pen.
>
> I never neglect my bush.


This is my favorite variety:
http://petterssononline.com/habanero...=variety&id=14
>
> <eg>
> --
> Peace, Om


--Bryan

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In article . com>,
Bobo Bonobo(R) > wrote:

> This is my favorite variety:
> http://petterssononline.com/habanero...=variety&id=14
> >
> > <eg>
> > --
> > Peace, Om

>
> --Bryan


I have no idea what variety I have. :-) They grow wild in this part of
Texas, and this one was a volunteer.
--
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Omelet wrote:
> In article >,
> Sonoran Dude > wrote:


>
> They are hermaphroditic. :-)
> He/she is a very nice plant! Just needs a bit more moisture it seems.
>
> I think mine looks this nice as we've been getting tons of rain, and I
> amended the soil around it last year with shovelings from what used to
> be an emu pen.
>
> I never neglect my bush.
>
> <eg>


Trimmed and pampered bushes are over rated. I like mine natural just as
God created them. Our rains are coming... and this old guy will spring
to life. Reply to me directly and I'll send you my snail address to send
me some sample fruit from your pampered bush this fall and in November
I'll send you some of the wild Sonoran variety and we can compare the
flavors.
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notbob wrote:
> On 2007-07-12, Rechazador de Disparates > wrote:
>
>> was in her own backyard.

>
> Your cat owns a backyard? Does it pay taxes? Has it been posted no
> trespassing to songbirds? Does the environment and related ecosystems
> recognize her ownership rights? I know if people kill certain bird
> species, they can be charged. Why not cats? If cats kill birds, can
> people kill cats? Just some thoughts I have.
>
> nb


My daughter has two cats and they spend much of their time attacking
birds through the glass windows of our home. I agree with you that cat
owners should be responsible to keep their cats indoors so not to
interfere with wildlife. Cats in our neighborhood don't last long
because of native wild cats, coyotes, owls and hawks. I can remember
only one outdoor cat in our neighborhood who was completely black, a
natural camouflage but he finally succumbed to a passing motorist.

Keep em sterile and keep em indoors.


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In article >,
Sonoran Dude > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Sonoran Dude > wrote:

>
> >
> > They are hermaphroditic. :-)
> > He/she is a very nice plant! Just needs a bit more moisture it seems.
> >
> > I think mine looks this nice as we've been getting tons of rain, and I
> > amended the soil around it last year with shovelings from what used to
> > be an emu pen.
> >
> > I never neglect my bush.
> >
> > <eg>

>
> Trimmed and pampered bushes are over rated. I like mine natural just as
> God created them. Our rains are coming... and this old guy will spring
> to life. Reply to me directly and I'll send you my snail address to send
> me some sample fruit from your pampered bush this fall and in November
> I'll send you some of the wild Sonoran variety and we can compare the
> flavors.


Ok. :-)

I'll send you some fruit when it ripens.

I'd not call my bush pampered per se', it's growing in the main garden
bed so just gets the benefits of caring for things like tomato plants.
I've not trimmed it for many years.
--
Peace, Om

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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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Default 1,500 year old Chiles..

In article >,
Sonoran Dude > wrote:

> notbob wrote:
> > On 2007-07-12, Rechazador de Disparates > wrote:
> >
> >> was in her own backyard.

> >
> > Your cat owns a backyard? Does it pay taxes? Has it been posted no
> > trespassing to songbirds? Does the environment and related ecosystems
> > recognize her ownership rights? I know if people kill certain bird
> > species, they can be charged. Why not cats? If cats kill birds, can
> > people kill cats? Just some thoughts I have.
> >
> > nb

>
> My daughter has two cats and they spend much of their time attacking
> birds through the glass windows of our home. I agree with you that cat
> owners should be responsible to keep their cats indoors so not to
> interfere with wildlife. Cats in our neighborhood don't last long
> because of native wild cats, coyotes, owls and hawks. I can remember
> only one outdoor cat in our neighborhood who was completely black, a
> natural camouflage but he finally succumbed to a passing motorist.
>
> Keep em sterile and keep em indoors.


Seconded.
--
Peace, Om

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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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Default 1,500 year old Chiles..

Rechazador de Disparates wrote:
> they try to escape from human company.
>
> That's why they have to be kept in cages. Human-bird relationships are
> unnatural.


What is unnatural about making friends with a bird? Don't humans make
friends through routine acts of kindness? Even the wildest birds will
eventually get used to you if you feed them on a regular basis. I
routinely get young litters of quail in the backyard. I like to throw
out my chopping scraps out for the chix in the morning and watch them
tackle my tall grass. I know its dinner bell mentality but mom and dad
will scratch around my feet with no problem after a few days of routine.

Chickens make great pets and wish I could have one where I live. Parrots
can die after loosing contact with an owner. I like all animals but beef
is my favorite.
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