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Default Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff

Just for fun, you might want to look at the stuff on your Thanksgiving table
tomorrow and figure out what percentage of the items originated on the
American continent, from the turkey to cornbread, pumpkins to peas, potatoes
to yams, cranberries to tomatoes....

What think you?



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Default Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff

Come to think of it, you're right! ....and what a tasty meal all that
is too!
happy thanksagiving!!

embers


Wayne Lundberg wrote:
> Just for fun, you might want to look at the stuff on your Thanksgiving table
> tomorrow and figure out what percentage of the items originated on the
> American continent, from the turkey to cornbread, pumpkins to peas, potatoes
> to yams, cranberries to tomatoes....
>
> What think you?


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Wayne Lundberg wrote:

> What think you?


I think we're lucky that our Thanksgiving dinner menu doesn't include
*everything* the
Native Americans ate...

I mean, like, we could be eating reptiles, amphibians and insects
today...

Anybody got a recipe for Western Fence Lizard, Northern Toad, or
grasshoppers?

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Default Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff

Well, I have never personally tasted them but I have heard that iguanas
do taste like chicken, usually broiled.

some people like frog legs, and grasshopers i have seen them roasted
and chocolate coated.

I did at least once had a snake stew (caldo), my mom asked me if I
liked the "caldo de pescado" (fish soup), yes i said, it was fine,
why?, well because it was snake. If my mom wouldnt had tell me I
couldnt have tell the difference.

Anyway , they say snake has a lot of iron and vitamins, and often
recommended for anemic people.

Saludos y Feliz Día de Acción de Gracias )
happy thanksgiving folks

The Galloping Gourmand wrote:
> Wayne Lundberg wrote:
>
> > What think you?

>
> I think we're lucky that our Thanksgiving dinner menu doesn't include
> *everything* the
> Native Americans ate...
>
> I mean, like, we could be eating reptiles, amphibians and insects
> today...
>
> Anybody got a recipe for Western Fence Lizard, Northern Toad, or
> grasshoppers?


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"Wayne Lundberg" > wrote in message
...
> Just for fun, you might want to look at the stuff on your Thanksgiving
> table
> tomorrow and figure out what percentage of the items originated on the
> American continent, from the turkey to cornbread, pumpkins to peas,
> potatoes
> to yams, cranberries to tomatoes....
>
> What think you?


Wow, amazing, What are the odds that the American Tradition of Thanksgiving
would include so many Native foods from whence they lived? Wow, It is
almost like the supermarket must have been sold out of everything, Huh.
Again wow, totally!
>
>



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Gunner wrote:

> Wow, amazing, What are the odds that the American Tradition of Thanksgiving
> would include so many Native foods from whence they lived? Wow, It is
> almost like the supermarket must have been sold out of everything, Huh.
> Again wow, totally!


Wayne was probably trying to pull the strings of middle class "guilt"
by pointing out that the Indians ate turkeys before the Pilgrims...

The sedentery tribes of North America lived in what was essentially
nature's supermarket.

They didn't have to go anywhere, they just waited for the food to grow,
or the game animals to wander by...

The men hunted, when the mood struck them, and the women gathered
various vegetables and fruits (in season). The women did all the dirty
work, but the men had the important job of keeping the universe in
order by performing various rituals (in season).

As humans spread over the Earth and cultures met and merged (or had
conflicts), various native peoples generously offered native foods to
the newcomers. For instance, the Tongva tribe of the Los Angeles area
welcomed the Spanish explorers with laboriously gathered chia seeds.
The Spaniards rejected the gift, saying that they had no
vessel to carry them in.

In other parts of the world, European explorers encountered starving
native peoples who refused to eat foods that were all around them. One
explorer reported that Africans would not eat the fish that were
vailable by the thousands in the Rift Valley lakes...

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"Wayne Lundberg" > wrote in message
...
> Just for fun, you might want to look at the stuff on your Thanksgiving
> table
> tomorrow and figure out what percentage of the items originated on the
> American continent, from the turkey to cornbread, pumpkins to peas,
> potatoes
> to yams, cranberries to tomatoes....
>
> What think you?


I thnk it's a bit odd that you think you are pointing out something unusual
here.

I mean, Thanksgiving is an American Holiday originating out of a meal
comprised of American foods.

It's kind of like pointing out that people eat foods with chiles on Cinco De
Mayo.


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DaveTwo wrote:
> I mean, Thanksgiving is an American Holiday originating out of a meal
> comprised of American foods.
>
> It's kind of like pointing out that people eat foods with chiles on Cinco De
> Mayo.


"Thanksgiving" became a national holiday (I believe) in the 1860's, per
Abraham Lincoln, over 200 years after the Pilgrims arrived here. While
our first president declated that we should all celebrate Thanksgiving,
we were only 13 states at the time. The first Thanksgiving was
celebrated as a traditional English harvest feast. Now, it is an annual
feast giving thanks to God for the bounty that we enjoy here... much of
which was planted, grown and raised and shipped here in the past 200
years. I'm not sure that it's important that it wasn't here when
Pilgrims arrived. Much of what was eaten on that first "Thanksgiving"
day was grown from seeds brought over here by the Pilgrims.

Jack

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Jack Tyler wrote:

> Much of what was eaten on that first "Thanksgiving"
> day was grown from seeds brought over here by the Pilgrims.


Traditionally, the bountiful harvest before the first Thanksgiving
feast was largely due to
the assistance that Tisquantum (Squanto) gave the Pilgrims in planting
maize along with a small fish for fertilizer.

Indian corn was precious, it was a matter of life and death to Indians
and Englishmen alike, and Indian corn repeatedly figured in the drama
of Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay colonies.

One of my New England ancestors was Richard Warren, a passenger on the
Mayflower. He would have known Tisquantum personally. Both died within
three years of the Mayflower's landing in Massachusetts.

Richard's name appears on the Mayflower Compact, the document that they
all agreed to sign in order to legitimize their establishment of a
colony hundreds of miles away from the intended site in "Northern
Virginia" near the mouth of the Hudson river.

In a video called "Desperate Crossing", The History Channel dramatized
the Pilgims digging up Native American graves and seed corn caches near
Cape Cod. After an encounter with angry Wampanoag Indians, the Pilgrims
decided to move the colony to New Plymouth.

Later, the Pilgrims encountered the same band of Wampanoags and
Governor Bradford agreed to make restitution in the matter of the seed
corn they'd pilfered.

Massasoit, sachem of the Wampanoags, regarded the Pilgrims as not being
dangerous at all, according to some sources, but "Desperate Crossing"
suggests that Massaoit welcomed the Pilgrims as allies against the
Narragansetts and the Pequots, who were a
warlike band of Iroquois that had moved into New England only a century
before.

Massasoit agreed to a treaty with the Europeans in 1635, when he
realized that Indians were outnumbered. Massasoit agreed that all
Indians would live by English law. The Wampanoags were known as
"Praying Indians".

In 1675, Massasoit's grandson Metacomet became angered after seeing the
bodies of three Indians who had been hanged for some crime, and
Metacomet led the insurrection known as "King Phillip's War".

By that time, my direct ancestors were living in the small town of
Hingham. Wampanoags lay in ambush by a wheat field and attacked and
killed a relative who made a good account of himself by using his
musket as a club. Another ancestor was the officer in charge of the
Hingham militia. He was killed, and my direct ancestor's house was one
of five burned by Indians.

King Phillips War killed about 5% of the population of New England, and
some counties in Rhode Island were uninhabited by Europeans for decades
afterward.

Metacomet sent 5000 Wampanoag warriors to kill the English, and only
500 came back.

Metacomet was captured and hanged, along with chief Canonchet, his
ally. In those days, Canonchet was as notorious as Geronimo was, 200
years later

Metacomet could have gotten away, but he returned. Why? He came back to
retrieve his cache of seed corn...



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"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message
" Much of what was eaten on that first "Thanksgiving"
day was grown from seeds brought over here by the Pilgrims.

Jack

Really? Can you reference that and what specifically was brought over here
as seed ?


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Gunner wrote:
> "Jack Tyler" > wrote in message
> " Much of what was eaten on that first "Thanksgiving"
> day was grown from seeds brought over here by the Pilgrims.
>
> Jack
>
> Really? Can you reference that and what specifically was brought over here
> as seed ?


Like another poster here, my ancestors were "pilgrims", but came over
later than the Mayflower. I read accounts from time to time of the
early days in the colonies. Caleb Johnson, also descended from
pilgrims, studies these things and has a few websites. A website
covering what we are discussing here is:

http://members.aol.com/calebj/thanksgiving.html

There aren't very many accounts of exactly what was brought over and
what was eaten in 1621, but some things are known from letters, etc.

Jack

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Wayne Lundberg wrote:
> Just for fun, you might want to look at the stuff on your Thanksgiving table
> tomorrow and figure out what percentage of the items originated on the
> American continent, from the turkey to cornbread, pumpkins to peas, potatoes
> to yams, cranberries to tomatoes....
>
> What think you?


They may have had some sweet potatoes... however, it's doubtful that
Pilgrims brought over any yams from Africa or Asia... they don't really
grow well here. There are a couple of African supermarkets here in
Houston that carry yams... but they're not very good compared with
sweet potatoes, in my opinion.


If any country ever made use of a fruit that wasn't native to it... I
believe that Italy couldn't exist without the tomatoes brought back
from the "new world". You have to wonder just what the Hell they ate
before the tomato arrived.

;-)

Jack

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Jack Tyler wrote:

> If any country ever made use of a fruit that wasn't native to it... I
> believe that Italy couldn't exist without the tomatoes brought back
> from the "new world". You have to wonder just what the Hell they ate
> before the tomato arrived.


Tomatos were considered to be poisonous for decades.

And the noodle didn't arrive until Marco Polo returned from China...

I would guess that Italians living in the southern half of the country
ate food that you'd see in north Africa and the Near East. Unleavened
bread, olives, olive oil, goat cheese, lamb, goat, egg plants, etc.

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Jack Tyler wrote:

> Like another poster here, my ancestors were "pilgrims", but came over
> later than the Mayflower.


Yes, we are probably about ninth cousins. I'm related to both Adams,
Pierce, Grant, and the Bushs and Taft, but I haven't looked up Tyler.

The term "Pilgrim" has been widened to include both the Separatists
("Saints") and other passengers ("Strangers"), who travelled on the
Mayflower, and those Mayflower passengers have been confused with the
Puritans, who didn't want to establish a whole new church, they just
wanted to remove all Roman Catholic ritual and influence from the
Church of England.

> There aren't very many accounts of exactly what was brought over and
> what was eaten in 1621, but some things are known from letters, etc.


One site said that the most successful English crops that first
Thanksgiving was barley, from which they made their ale. Some of my
earliest relatives opened up the first public house in Duxbury,
Massachusetts, and one of them was put into the stocks after he engaged
in an act of drunken horsemanship. He rode his horse into a Puritan's
parlor...



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The Galloping Gourmand wrote:
>
> Yes, we are probably about ninth cousins. I'm related to both Adams,
> Pierce, Grant, and the Bushs and Taft, but I haven't looked up Tyler.


Jack is my nickname. My name is John Tyler. President John Tyler,
Harry Truman and I are all descended from the same person (John Tyler),
the first white child born in Kentucky (1775 in Boonesboro). Back when
I had more time to waste, I was active in a slew of lineage
societies... now, I can barely remember the names of all of them. My
Tyler ancestors came to this country from Kent, England in the middle
1600's through Maryland... then moved through Virginia to Kentucky...
then Arkansas... then (unfortunately) Oklahoma... then Texas.

Jack

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"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> The Galloping Gourmand wrote:
> >
> > Yes, we are probably about ninth cousins. I'm related to both Adams,
> > Pierce, Grant, and the Bushs and Taft, but I haven't looked up Tyler.

>
> Jack is my nickname. My name is John Tyler. President John Tyler,
> Harry Truman and I are all descended from the same person (John Tyler),
> the first white child born in Kentucky (1775 in Boonesboro). Back when
> I had more time to waste, I was active in a slew of lineage
> societies... now, I can barely remember the names of all of them. My
> Tyler ancestors came to this country from Kent, England in the middle
> 1600's through Maryland... then moved through Virginia to Kentucky...
> then Arkansas... then (unfortunately) Oklahoma... then Texas.
>
> Jack



Uncle Jack.
Jacktoo


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"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> If any country ever made use of a fruit that wasn't native to it... I
> believe that Italy couldn't exist without the tomatoes brought back
> from the "new world". You have to wonder just what the Hell they ate
> before the tomato arrived.
>
> ;-)
>
> Jack


Quite a lot, in fact, Jack. The stereotypical NY/Sicilian everything Tomato
and Basil is a myth. I have meet so many 3-4th Generations Italians that
claim their food dishes are just the way it is/was done in the old country,
yet they have never been outside the US.

You and some others here keep talking about regional differences in Mexican
cooking and then expound on what is and is not authentic. Italy has great
regional dishes in every region from Lombardy to Calabria that do not
include Tomato and have for a long time. Certainly As does Sicily and
Sardinia with its Moor/Northern Africa
influence. American views of Italian cooking tend to be Sicilian and
Neapolitan, heavy on Olive oil, tomato and garlic because of the large
immigrant influx from those regions. you have Butters and Lard in the North,
the Spices Adriatic seafood from the Veneto with the temperate climates and
locations of
Tuscany, Umbria and Emilia Romagna mixing the north and south, the seas
never far away.

The de' Medici Family in 1532/33 was credited for introducing France to
Haute Cuisine. Before that French /European cooking quite tasteless and
was
"not prone to either of the vast Venetian or the Moor style cosine, nor
their spices. Italian cooking is the Mother of all European Latin cooking
( Larousse Gastronomique) .

So taking the long way around to answer your question, "You have to wonder
just what the Hell they ate before the tomato arrived". Quite a lot in
fact,
such as:

Pasta con Uovo made with many, many sauces, only one of which was Salsa di
Pomo d Ori.
Fettuccine al Burro
Scalloppine al Marsala
Polpette all Casalinga
Vitello Tonnato
Scaloppine al Limone
Gnocchi alla Romana
Coda alla Vaccinara
Pollo alla Diavola
Bistecca alla Fiorentina
Tortellini
Lasagne Pasticciate
Pollo alla Bolognese
and this barely skims the regions much less the
local variations within the regions and towns nor the many seafood from both
seas

GG, As for wheat used to make Noodles/Pasta being brought to Italy from
China by Polo, no that is a myth
Marco Polo did not bring Macaroni nor Pasta nor wheat to make such to
Italy:
http://www.cliffordawright.com/history/mac_print.html

and yet we do have ancient Romans were eating Polenta back in the day



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"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Gunner wrote:
>> "Jack Tyler" > wrote in message
>> " Much of what was eaten on that first "Thanksgiving"
>> day was grown from seeds brought over here by the Pilgrims.
>>
>> Jack
>>
>> Really? Can you reference that and what specifically was brought over
>> here
>> as seed ?

>
> Like another poster here, my ancestors were "pilgrims", but came over
> later than the Mayflower. I read accounts from time to time of the
> early days in the colonies. Caleb Johnson, also descended from
> pilgrims, studies these things and has a few websites. A website
> covering what we are discussing here is:
>
> http://members.aol.com/calebj/thanksgiving.html
>
> There aren't very many accounts of exactly what was brought over and
> what was eaten in 1621, but some things are known from letters, etc.
>
> Jack


Mine were colonialists landing in the Carolinas in 1786. As to what
constitutes a Pilgrim is probably debatable, not that it matters or
affects research. I view Caleb Johnson's translation inset for the Corn
(Wheat) as an unreferenced interpretation. Certainly you should read the
entire letter he quotes excerpts from, also on his website but here is a
more complete paragraph including that excerpt he used that you referenced.
http://members.aol.com/calebj/mourt6.html:

"You shall understand, that in this little time, that a few of us have been
here, we have built seven dwelling-houses, and four for the use of the
plantation, and have made preparation for divers others. We set the last
spring some twenty acres of Indian corn, and sowed some six acres of barley
and peas, and according to the manner of the Indians, we manured our ground
with herrings or rather shads, which we have in great abundance, and take
with great ease at our doors. Our corn did prove well, and God be praised,
we had a good increase of Indian corn, and our barley indifferent good, but
our peas not worth the gathering, for we feared they were too late sown,
they came up very well, and blossomed, but the sun parched them in the
blossom".

I see nothing to indicate "wheat" mentioned here so I do not see where he
got that.
For you to interject the fact he is a descendent of a "Pilgrim" is not
germane to anything anymore that the fact that someone travels in a land or
lived for a time in a country as a child is an expert. Carl Segan gives
some goodly advice he http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~urban/docs/baloney.html.

I do not find Johnson's academic bona fides or his curriculum vitae
anywhere. Is he a noted scholar? All the research I find for him references
his own work which is largely a translation of Old English into New English.
I am sure he is a very earnest and an honorable person, but to paraphrase
Segan, don't fall in love with your favorite theory to the exclusion of
fact. No peer reviews, no credentials, it is like Dr. John, PhB, yes a
Bachelors of Philosophy writing on Texas Chili. Wayne is correct here in
that the giving of thanks was celebrated by Native foods feeding these
foreigners but that is a no brainier, hence the comments by Dave and Myself.

Here are some quick google references to contradict Johnson's
interpretation that the "corn" was wheat, even a child whop has seen both
does not make that mistake. I still have to wonder about the butter (any
taken from England would have long spoiled until the cattle and sheep came
years later) and Olive oil ( perhaps the oil mentioned was of animal fat,
very doubtful it was of Olive extract) he cites.

http://shopping.netledger.com/s.nl/c...1/it.I/id.4/.f

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0861939.html

http://209.196.51.230/ME2/dirmod.asp...DB7095B&tier=2


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Gunner wrote:
> For you to interject the fact he is a descendent of a "Pilgrim" is not
> germane to anything anymore that the fact that someone travels in a land or
> lived for a time in a country as a child is an expert. <snip>


> I do not find Johnson's academic bona fides or his curriculum vitae
> anywhere. Is he a noted scholar? All the research I find for him references
> his own work which is largely a translation of Old English into New English.


Dear Gunner,

I appears that I have wandered into a discussion that I am neither
qualified for, nor do I have the time and inclination to proceed in.
Had I realized that this was other than a casual discussion of
Thanksgiving food, I would have stayed out of it. Your research is
wonderful and I appreciate all of the work you did to refute my
assertions and the writer I quoted... however, I wasn't looking to be
involved is such a scholarly discussion, nor do I have the time to
research the credentials of those I have read, as you do.

The reason I mentioned that Johnson was descended from "pilgrims" was
NOT to add credibility to his writings... it was merely to say that he
has an interest in what went on then, as I do.

Back to Mexican food for me.

Thanks for the education.

Jack



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Gunner wrote:
You have to wonder just what the Hell they ate
> > before the tomato arrived.
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> > Jack

>
> Quite a lot, in fact, Jack. The stereotypical NY/Sicilian everything Tomato
> and Basil is a myth.


Gunner,

I was joking. It was sarcasm. I didn't mean it. Sorry to give you the
impression that I was ignorant. I know quite a lot about regional
Italian cooking and hardly think that tomatoes go in all dishes.

Again, your research is impeccable and you went to a lot of time and
trouble to educate me. Eventually, I will either know who to joke
around, or I will make sure that I indicate that something is a joke,
as I thought I had with the smiley face after the question.

As someone who in new in this group, I have treated it as other groups
I have posted in for years... over 8,000 posts without much trouble.
However, I have incurred two serious academic lectures here and one
poster telling me to stick a cow heart up my ass. I must be doing
something wrong! Sorry to have put you through all of the trouble.

Again, thank you for the education.

Jack

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Jack Tyler wrote:

> As someone who in new in this group, I have treated it as other groups
> I have posted in for years... over 8,000 posts without much trouble.
> However, I have incurred two serious academic lectures here and one
> poster telling me to stick a cow heart up my ass. I must be doing
> something wrong! Sorry to have put you through all of the trouble.


Jack, I came upon this newsgroup just about a week or two after it
started, and almost immediately there arrived a humorless pedant/prig
whose preachings and rants were more important to him than were anyone
else's opinions or feelings. There was a time when I was reluctant to
log on for fear of getting upset. He's gone now.

I don't know what it is about this ng, but it seems to have attracted
more of his ilk over the years. I don't have any explanation for it,
but I do empathise.

David

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"dtwright37" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Jack Tyler wrote:
>
> > As someone who in new in this group, I have treated it as other groups
> > I have posted in for years... over 8,000 posts without much trouble.
> > However, I have incurred two serious academic lectures here and one
> > poster telling me to stick a cow heart up my ass. I must be doing
> > something wrong! Sorry to have put you through all of the trouble.

>
> Jack, I came upon this newsgroup just about a week or two after it
> started, and almost immediately there arrived a humorless pedant/prig
> whose preachings and rants were more important to him than were anyone
> else's opinions or feelings. There was a time when I was reluctant to
> log on for fear of getting upset. He's gone now.
>
> I don't know what it is about this ng, but it seems to have attracted
> more of his ilk over the years. I don't have any explanation for it,
> but I do empathise.
>
> David
>

Victor lurks... beware of reviving.



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Wayne Lundberg wrote:

> Victor lurks... beware of reviving.


You're right, Wayne. At least once after he left I got an email from
him, telling me that a "friend" was monitoring the group and had passed
along some negative comment I had made. I imagine his "friend" kept
fairly busy keeping him informed of our remarks! ;-)

David

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> However, I have incurred two serious academic lectures here and one
> poster telling me to stick a cow heart up my ass. I must be doing
> something wrong! Sorry to have put you through all of the trouble.
>
> Again, thank you for the education.
>
> Jack



Naw, Jack You're doing just fine... it's par for the course. Sorry I missed
the part about the cows heart.
Jacktoo




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"Jack Sloan" > wrote in message
news:30Lah.11322$J5.835@trnddc04...
>
>
>> However, I have incurred two serious academic lectures here and one
>> poster telling me to stick a cow heart up my ass. I must be doing
>> something wrong! Sorry to have put you through all of the trouble.
>>
>> Again, thank you for the education.
>>
>> Jack

>
>
> Naw, Jack You're doing just fine... it's par for the course. Sorry I
> missed
> the part about the cows heart.
> Jacktoo




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