Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Just for fun, you might want to look at the stuff on your Thanksgiving table
tomorrow and figure out what percentage of the items originated on the American continent, from the turkey to cornbread, pumpkins to peas, potatoes to yams, cranberries to tomatoes.... What think you? |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Come to think of it, you're right! ....and what a tasty meal all that
is too! happy thanksagiving!! embers Wayne Lundberg wrote: > Just for fun, you might want to look at the stuff on your Thanksgiving table > tomorrow and figure out what percentage of the items originated on the > American continent, from the turkey to cornbread, pumpkins to peas, potatoes > to yams, cranberries to tomatoes.... > > What think you? |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Wayne Lundberg wrote: > What think you? I think we're lucky that our Thanksgiving dinner menu doesn't include *everything* the Native Americans ate... I mean, like, we could be eating reptiles, amphibians and insects today... Anybody got a recipe for Western Fence Lizard, Northern Toad, or grasshoppers? |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Well, I have never personally tasted them but I have heard that iguanas
do taste like chicken, usually broiled. some people like frog legs, and grasshopers i have seen them roasted and chocolate coated. I did at least once had a snake stew (caldo), my mom asked me if I liked the "caldo de pescado" (fish soup), yes i said, it was fine, why?, well because it was snake. If my mom wouldnt had tell me I couldnt have tell the difference. Anyway , they say snake has a lot of iron and vitamins, and often recommended for anemic people. Saludos y Feliz Día de Acción de Gracias :o) happy thanksgiving folks The Galloping Gourmand wrote: > Wayne Lundberg wrote: > > > What think you? > > I think we're lucky that our Thanksgiving dinner menu doesn't include > *everything* the > Native Americans ate... > > I mean, like, we could be eating reptiles, amphibians and insects > today... > > Anybody got a recipe for Western Fence Lizard, Northern Toad, or > grasshoppers? |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
"Wayne Lundberg" > wrote in message ... > Just for fun, you might want to look at the stuff on your Thanksgiving > table > tomorrow and figure out what percentage of the items originated on the > American continent, from the turkey to cornbread, pumpkins to peas, > potatoes > to yams, cranberries to tomatoes.... > > What think you? Wow, amazing, What are the odds that the American Tradition of Thanksgiving would include so many Native foods from whence they lived? Wow, It is almost like the supermarket must have been sold out of everything, Huh. Again wow, totally! > > |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Gunner wrote: > Wow, amazing, What are the odds that the American Tradition of Thanksgiving > would include so many Native foods from whence they lived? Wow, It is > almost like the supermarket must have been sold out of everything, Huh. > Again wow, totally! Wayne was probably trying to pull the strings of middle class "guilt" by pointing out that the Indians ate turkeys before the Pilgrims... The sedentery tribes of North America lived in what was essentially nature's supermarket. They didn't have to go anywhere, they just waited for the food to grow, or the game animals to wander by... The men hunted, when the mood struck them, and the women gathered various vegetables and fruits (in season). The women did all the dirty work, but the men had the important job of keeping the universe in order by performing various rituals (in season). As humans spread over the Earth and cultures met and merged (or had conflicts), various native peoples generously offered native foods to the newcomers. For instance, the Tongva tribe of the Los Angeles area welcomed the Spanish explorers with laboriously gathered chia seeds. The Spaniards rejected the gift, saying that they had no vessel to carry them in. In other parts of the world, European explorers encountered starving native peoples who refused to eat foods that were all around them. One explorer reported that Africans would not eat the fish that were vailable by the thousands in the Rift Valley lakes... |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
"Wayne Lundberg" > wrote in message ... > Just for fun, you might want to look at the stuff on your Thanksgiving > table > tomorrow and figure out what percentage of the items originated on the > American continent, from the turkey to cornbread, pumpkins to peas, > potatoes > to yams, cranberries to tomatoes.... > > What think you? I thnk it's a bit odd that you think you are pointing out something unusual here. I mean, Thanksgiving is an American Holiday originating out of a meal comprised of American foods. It's kind of like pointing out that people eat foods with chiles on Cinco De Mayo. |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
DaveTwo wrote: > I mean, Thanksgiving is an American Holiday originating out of a meal > comprised of American foods. > > It's kind of like pointing out that people eat foods with chiles on Cinco De > Mayo. "Thanksgiving" became a national holiday (I believe) in the 1860's, per Abraham Lincoln, over 200 years after the Pilgrims arrived here. While our first president declated that we should all celebrate Thanksgiving, we were only 13 states at the time. The first Thanksgiving was celebrated as a traditional English harvest feast. Now, it is an annual feast giving thanks to God for the bounty that we enjoy here... much of which was planted, grown and raised and shipped here in the past 200 years. I'm not sure that it's important that it wasn't here when Pilgrims arrived. Much of what was eaten on that first "Thanksgiving" day was grown from seeds brought over here by the Pilgrims. Jack |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Jack Tyler wrote: > Much of what was eaten on that first "Thanksgiving" > day was grown from seeds brought over here by the Pilgrims. Traditionally, the bountiful harvest before the first Thanksgiving feast was largely due to the assistance that Tisquantum (Squanto) gave the Pilgrims in planting maize along with a small fish for fertilizer. Indian corn was precious, it was a matter of life and death to Indians and Englishmen alike, and Indian corn repeatedly figured in the drama of Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay colonies. One of my New England ancestors was Richard Warren, a passenger on the Mayflower. He would have known Tisquantum personally. Both died within three years of the Mayflower's landing in Massachusetts. Richard's name appears on the Mayflower Compact, the document that they all agreed to sign in order to legitimize their establishment of a colony hundreds of miles away from the intended site in "Northern Virginia" near the mouth of the Hudson river. In a video called "Desperate Crossing", The History Channel dramatized the Pilgims digging up Native American graves and seed corn caches near Cape Cod. After an encounter with angry Wampanoag Indians, the Pilgrims decided to move the colony to New Plymouth. Later, the Pilgrims encountered the same band of Wampanoags and Governor Bradford agreed to make restitution in the matter of the seed corn they'd pilfered. Massasoit, sachem of the Wampanoags, regarded the Pilgrims as not being dangerous at all, according to some sources, but "Desperate Crossing" suggests that Massaoit welcomed the Pilgrims as allies against the Narragansetts and the Pequots, who were a warlike band of Iroquois that had moved into New England only a century before. Massasoit agreed to a treaty with the Europeans in 1635, when he realized that Indians were outnumbered. Massasoit agreed that all Indians would live by English law. The Wampanoags were known as "Praying Indians". In 1675, Massasoit's grandson Metacomet became angered after seeing the bodies of three Indians who had been hanged for some crime, and Metacomet led the insurrection known as "King Phillip's War". By that time, my direct ancestors were living in the small town of Hingham. Wampanoags lay in ambush by a wheat field and attacked and killed a relative who made a good account of himself by using his musket as a club. Another ancestor was the officer in charge of the Hingham militia. He was killed, and my direct ancestor's house was one of five burned by Indians. King Phillips War killed about 5% of the population of New England, and some counties in Rhode Island were uninhabited by Europeans for decades afterward. Metacomet sent 5000 Wampanoag warriors to kill the English, and only 500 came back. Metacomet was captured and hanged, along with chief Canonchet, his ally. In those days, Canonchet was as notorious as Geronimo was, 200 years later Metacomet could have gotten away, but he returned. Why? He came back to retrieve his cache of seed corn... |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message " Much of what was eaten on that first "Thanksgiving" day was grown from seeds brought over here by the Pilgrims. Jack Really? Can you reference that and what specifically was brought over here as seed ? |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Gunner wrote: > "Jack Tyler" > wrote in message > " Much of what was eaten on that first "Thanksgiving" > day was grown from seeds brought over here by the Pilgrims. > > Jack > > Really? Can you reference that and what specifically was brought over here > as seed ? Like another poster here, my ancestors were "pilgrims", but came over later than the Mayflower. I read accounts from time to time of the early days in the colonies. Caleb Johnson, also descended from pilgrims, studies these things and has a few websites. A website covering what we are discussing here is: http://members.aol.com/calebj/thanksgiving.html There aren't very many accounts of exactly what was brought over and what was eaten in 1621, but some things are known from letters, etc. Jack |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Wayne Lundberg wrote: > Just for fun, you might want to look at the stuff on your Thanksgiving table > tomorrow and figure out what percentage of the items originated on the > American continent, from the turkey to cornbread, pumpkins to peas, potatoes > to yams, cranberries to tomatoes.... > > What think you? They may have had some sweet potatoes... however, it's doubtful that Pilgrims brought over any yams from Africa or Asia... they don't really grow well here. There are a couple of African supermarkets here in Houston that carry yams... but they're not very good compared with sweet potatoes, in my opinion. If any country ever made use of a fruit that wasn't native to it... I believe that Italy couldn't exist without the tomatoes brought back from the "new world". You have to wonder just what the Hell they ate before the tomato arrived. ;-) Jack |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Jack Tyler wrote: > If any country ever made use of a fruit that wasn't native to it... I > believe that Italy couldn't exist without the tomatoes brought back > from the "new world". You have to wonder just what the Hell they ate > before the tomato arrived. Tomatos were considered to be poisonous for decades. And the noodle didn't arrive until Marco Polo returned from China... I would guess that Italians living in the southern half of the country ate food that you'd see in north Africa and the Near East. Unleavened bread, olives, olive oil, goat cheese, lamb, goat, egg plants, etc. |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Jack Tyler wrote: > Like another poster here, my ancestors were "pilgrims", but came over > later than the Mayflower. Yes, we are probably about ninth cousins. I'm related to both Adams, Pierce, Grant, and the Bushs and Taft, but I haven't looked up Tyler. The term "Pilgrim" has been widened to include both the Separatists ("Saints") and other passengers ("Strangers"), who travelled on the Mayflower, and those Mayflower passengers have been confused with the Puritans, who didn't want to establish a whole new church, they just wanted to remove all Roman Catholic ritual and influence from the Church of England. > There aren't very many accounts of exactly what was brought over and > what was eaten in 1621, but some things are known from letters, etc. One site said that the most successful English crops that first Thanksgiving was barley, from which they made their ale. Some of my earliest relatives opened up the first public house in Duxbury, Massachusetts, and one of them was put into the stocks after he engaged in an act of drunken horsemanship. He rode his horse into a Puritan's parlor... |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
The Galloping Gourmand wrote: > > Yes, we are probably about ninth cousins. I'm related to both Adams, > Pierce, Grant, and the Bushs and Taft, but I haven't looked up Tyler. Jack is my nickname. My name is John Tyler. President John Tyler, Harry Truman and I are all descended from the same person (John Tyler), the first white child born in Kentucky (1775 in Boonesboro). Back when I had more time to waste, I was active in a slew of lineage societies... now, I can barely remember the names of all of them. My Tyler ancestors came to this country from Kent, England in the middle 1600's through Maryland... then moved through Virginia to Kentucky... then Arkansas... then (unfortunately) Oklahoma... then Texas. Jack |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message ups.com... > > The Galloping Gourmand wrote: > > > > Yes, we are probably about ninth cousins. I'm related to both Adams, > > Pierce, Grant, and the Bushs and Taft, but I haven't looked up Tyler. > > Jack is my nickname. My name is John Tyler. President John Tyler, > Harry Truman and I are all descended from the same person (John Tyler), > the first white child born in Kentucky (1775 in Boonesboro). Back when > I had more time to waste, I was active in a slew of lineage > societies... now, I can barely remember the names of all of them. My > Tyler ancestors came to this country from Kent, England in the middle > 1600's through Maryland... then moved through Virginia to Kentucky... > then Arkansas... then (unfortunately) Oklahoma... then Texas. > > Jack Uncle Jack. Jacktoo |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message ups.com... > If any country ever made use of a fruit that wasn't native to it... I > believe that Italy couldn't exist without the tomatoes brought back > from the "new world". You have to wonder just what the Hell they ate > before the tomato arrived. > > ;-) > > Jack Quite a lot, in fact, Jack. The stereotypical NY/Sicilian everything Tomato and Basil is a myth. I have meet so many 3-4th Generations Italians that claim their food dishes are just the way it is/was done in the old country, yet they have never been outside the US. You and some others here keep talking about regional differences in Mexican cooking and then expound on what is and is not authentic. Italy has great regional dishes in every region from Lombardy to Calabria that do not include Tomato and have for a long time. Certainly As does Sicily and Sardinia with its Moor/Northern Africa influence. American views of Italian cooking tend to be Sicilian and Neapolitan, heavy on Olive oil, tomato and garlic because of the large immigrant influx from those regions. you have Butters and Lard in the North, the Spices Adriatic seafood from the Veneto with the temperate climates and locations of Tuscany, Umbria and Emilia Romagna mixing the north and south, the seas never far away. The de' Medici Family in 1532/33 was credited for introducing France to Haute Cuisine. Before that French /European cooking quite tasteless and was "not prone to either of the vast Venetian or the Moor style cosine, nor their spices. Italian cooking is the Mother of all European Latin cooking ( Larousse Gastronomique) . So taking the long way around to answer your question, "You have to wonder just what the Hell they ate before the tomato arrived". Quite a lot in fact, such as: Pasta con Uovo made with many, many sauces, only one of which was Salsa di Pomo d Ori. Fettuccine al Burro Scalloppine al Marsala Polpette all Casalinga Vitello Tonnato Scaloppine al Limone Gnocchi alla Romana Coda alla Vaccinara Pollo alla Diavola Bistecca alla Fiorentina Tortellini Lasagne Pasticciate Pollo alla Bolognese and this barely skims the regions much less the local variations within the regions and towns nor the many seafood from both seas GG, As for wheat used to make Noodles/Pasta being brought to Italy from China by Polo, no that is a myth Marco Polo did not bring Macaroni nor Pasta nor wheat to make such to Italy: http://www.cliffordawright.com/history/mac_print.html and yet we do have ancient Romans were eating Polenta back in the day |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message ups.com... > > Gunner wrote: >> "Jack Tyler" > wrote in message >> " Much of what was eaten on that first "Thanksgiving" >> day was grown from seeds brought over here by the Pilgrims. >> >> Jack >> >> Really? Can you reference that and what specifically was brought over >> here >> as seed ? > > Like another poster here, my ancestors were "pilgrims", but came over > later than the Mayflower. I read accounts from time to time of the > early days in the colonies. Caleb Johnson, also descended from > pilgrims, studies these things and has a few websites. A website > covering what we are discussing here is: > > http://members.aol.com/calebj/thanksgiving.html > > There aren't very many accounts of exactly what was brought over and > what was eaten in 1621, but some things are known from letters, etc. > > Jack Mine were colonialists landing in the Carolinas in 1786. As to what constitutes a Pilgrim is probably debatable, not that it matters or affects research. I view Caleb Johnson's translation inset for the Corn (Wheat) as an unreferenced interpretation. Certainly you should read the entire letter he quotes excerpts from, also on his website but here is a more complete paragraph including that excerpt he used that you referenced. http://members.aol.com/calebj/mourt6.html: "You shall understand, that in this little time, that a few of us have been here, we have built seven dwelling-houses, and four for the use of the plantation, and have made preparation for divers others. We set the last spring some twenty acres of Indian corn, and sowed some six acres of barley and peas, and according to the manner of the Indians, we manured our ground with herrings or rather shads, which we have in great abundance, and take with great ease at our doors. Our corn did prove well, and God be praised, we had a good increase of Indian corn, and our barley indifferent good, but our peas not worth the gathering, for we feared they were too late sown, they came up very well, and blossomed, but the sun parched them in the blossom". I see nothing to indicate "wheat" mentioned here so I do not see where he got that. For you to interject the fact he is a descendent of a "Pilgrim" is not germane to anything anymore that the fact that someone travels in a land or lived for a time in a country as a child is an expert. Carl Segan gives some goodly advice he http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~urban/docs/baloney.html. I do not find Johnson's academic bona fides or his curriculum vitae anywhere. Is he a noted scholar? All the research I find for him references his own work which is largely a translation of Old English into New English. I am sure he is a very earnest and an honorable person, but to paraphrase Segan, don't fall in love with your favorite theory to the exclusion of fact. No peer reviews, no credentials, it is like Dr. John, PhB, yes a Bachelors of Philosophy writing on Texas Chili. Wayne is correct here in that the giving of thanks was celebrated by Native foods feeding these foreigners but that is a no brainier, hence the comments by Dave and Myself. Here are some quick google references to contradict Johnson's interpretation that the "corn" was wheat, even a child whop has seen both does not make that mistake. I still have to wonder about the butter (any taken from England would have long spoiled until the cattle and sheep came years later) and Olive oil ( perhaps the oil mentioned was of animal fat, very doubtful it was of Olive extract) he cites. http://shopping.netledger.com/s.nl/c...1/it.I/id.4/.f http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0861939.html http://209.196.51.230/ME2/dirmod.asp...DB7095B&tier=2 |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Gunner wrote: > For you to interject the fact he is a descendent of a "Pilgrim" is not > germane to anything anymore that the fact that someone travels in a land or > lived for a time in a country as a child is an expert. <snip> > I do not find Johnson's academic bona fides or his curriculum vitae > anywhere. Is he a noted scholar? All the research I find for him references > his own work which is largely a translation of Old English into New English. Dear Gunner, I appears that I have wandered into a discussion that I am neither qualified for, nor do I have the time and inclination to proceed in. Had I realized that this was other than a casual discussion of Thanksgiving food, I would have stayed out of it. Your research is wonderful and I appreciate all of the work you did to refute my assertions and the writer I quoted... however, I wasn't looking to be involved is such a scholarly discussion, nor do I have the time to research the credentials of those I have read, as you do. The reason I mentioned that Johnson was descended from "pilgrims" was NOT to add credibility to his writings... it was merely to say that he has an interest in what went on then, as I do. Back to Mexican food for me. Thanks for the education. Jack |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Gunner wrote: You have to wonder just what the Hell they ate > > before the tomato arrived. > > > > ;-) > > > > Jack > > Quite a lot, in fact, Jack. The stereotypical NY/Sicilian everything Tomato > and Basil is a myth. Gunner, I was joking. It was sarcasm. I didn't mean it. Sorry to give you the impression that I was ignorant. I know quite a lot about regional Italian cooking and hardly think that tomatoes go in all dishes. Again, your research is impeccable and you went to a lot of time and trouble to educate me. Eventually, I will either know who to joke around, or I will make sure that I indicate that something is a joke, as I thought I had with the smiley face after the question. As someone who in new in this group, I have treated it as other groups I have posted in for years... over 8,000 posts without much trouble. However, I have incurred two serious academic lectures here and one poster telling me to stick a cow heart up my ass. I must be doing something wrong! Sorry to have put you through all of the trouble. Again, thank you for the education. Jack |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Jack Tyler wrote: > As someone who in new in this group, I have treated it as other groups > I have posted in for years... over 8,000 posts without much trouble. > However, I have incurred two serious academic lectures here and one > poster telling me to stick a cow heart up my ass. I must be doing > something wrong! Sorry to have put you through all of the trouble. Jack, I came upon this newsgroup just about a week or two after it started, and almost immediately there arrived a humorless pedant/prig whose preachings and rants were more important to him than were anyone else's opinions or feelings. There was a time when I was reluctant to log on for fear of getting upset. He's gone now. I don't know what it is about this ng, but it seems to have attracted more of his ilk over the years. I don't have any explanation for it, but I do empathise. David |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
"dtwright37" > wrote in message ups.com... > > Jack Tyler wrote: > > > As someone who in new in this group, I have treated it as other groups > > I have posted in for years... over 8,000 posts without much trouble. > > However, I have incurred two serious academic lectures here and one > > poster telling me to stick a cow heart up my ass. I must be doing > > something wrong! Sorry to have put you through all of the trouble. > > Jack, I came upon this newsgroup just about a week or two after it > started, and almost immediately there arrived a humorless pedant/prig > whose preachings and rants were more important to him than were anyone > else's opinions or feelings. There was a time when I was reluctant to > log on for fear of getting upset. He's gone now. > > I don't know what it is about this ng, but it seems to have attracted > more of his ilk over the years. I don't have any explanation for it, > but I do empathise. > > David > Victor lurks... beware of reviving. |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
Wayne Lundberg wrote:
> Victor lurks... beware of reviving. You're right, Wayne. At least once after he left I got an email from him, telling me that a "friend" was monitoring the group and had passed along some negative comment I had made. I imagine his "friend" kept fairly busy keeping him informed of our remarks! ;-) David |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
> However, I have incurred two serious academic lectures here and one > poster telling me to stick a cow heart up my ass. I must be doing > something wrong! Sorry to have put you through all of the trouble. > > Again, thank you for the education. > > Jack Naw, Jack You're doing just fine... it's par for the course. Sorry I missed the part about the cows heart. Jacktoo |
Thanksgiving meal mostly original Amerindian stuff
"Jack Sloan" > wrote in message news:30Lah.11322$J5.835@trnddc04... > > >> However, I have incurred two serious academic lectures here and one >> poster telling me to stick a cow heart up my ass. I must be doing >> something wrong! Sorry to have put you through all of the trouble. >> >> Again, thank you for the education. >> >> Jack > > > Naw, Jack You're doing just fine... it's par for the course. Sorry I > missed > the part about the cows heart. > Jacktoo |
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