Let's pretend that I'm a hard-working wealthy businessman, and I take a
vacation in Mexico.

Let's also pretend that I've tried tacos and tamales and enchiladas and
burritos and tostadas and every other kind of fiesta food, washed down
with copious qauntites of cerveza. Been there, done that, farted and
belched, staggered and got a DUI.

Let's pretend that I know the difference between Mexican mestizo
cooking and Tex-Mex mestizo cooking. Been there, done that, had
heartburn and the runs.

Don't forget, I have enough money to pay for anything I want, but I'm
short on time, I don't have time to be adopted by a mestizo family, I
already have a mestizo gardener and cook that can
make tacos and rice and refried beans if I want that.

I want to order a meal in an upscale Mexican restaurant, and then when
I come back home, I want my wife to attempt to recreate this upscale
Mexican meal.

What do I order in this restaurant which has no wall menu and doesn't
serve trash meat?

Come on, people. Inspire me. What do rich Mexicans eat, when they're
not trying to recreate Mexican "soul food"?

Don't forget, I can afford to buy a decent meal.

Let's Pretend wrote:
> Come on, people. Inspire me. What do rich Mexicans eat, when they're
> not trying to recreate Mexican "soul food"?
>
> Don't forget, I can afford to buy a decent meal.

"Rich" Mexicans eat the same thing that you eat. They eat lobsters and
(American cut)steaks and Continental cuisine... Northern Italian
cuisine... stone crab claws, etc. The best restaurants in Mexico City
(I like La Hacienda de los Morales) serve "continental cuisine". What
you get when you pay more money in Mexico is service and presentation.
Instead of getting posole in a huge bowl with gristle in the pork, you
get less posole... a wider, shallower bowl, garnished well and with
leaner pork. Dishes that are typically served with flair, such as
Chiles en Nogada (commonly felt to be the national dish), are served to
the wealthy, too... the walnut sauce is richer... the pomegranate seeds
are distributed neatly and it is served on china.

Jack

Let's Pretend wrote:
> Let's pretend that I'm a hard-working wealthy businessman, and I take a
> vacation in Mexico.
>
If we pretend you're in the USA, I say no problem. You don't even have
to go to Mexico.

Just pick an upscale restaurant in any big US city, and the chances are
that most, if not all, of the line cooks, the ones who put the food on
your plate, are from Mexico, particularily Puebla or Oaxaca.

This is probably not what you wanted to read.

David, my real name

"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Let's Pretend wrote:
> > Come on, people. Inspire me. What do rich Mexicans eat, when they're
> > not trying to recreate Mexican "soul food"?
> >
> > Don't forget, I can afford to buy a decent meal.
>
> "Rich" Mexicans eat the same thing that you eat. They eat lobsters and
> (American cut)steaks and Continental cuisine... Northern Italian
> cuisine... stone crab claws, etc. The best restaurants in Mexico City
> (I like La Hacienda de los Morales) serve "continental cuisine". What
> you get when you pay more money in Mexico is service and presentation.
> Instead of getting posole in a huge bowl with gristle in the pork, you
> get less posole... a wider, shallower bowl, garnished well and with
> leaner pork. Dishes that are typically served with flair, such as
> Chiles en Nogada (commonly felt to be the national dish), are served to
> the wealthy, too... the walnut sauce is richer... the pomegranate seeds
> are distributed neatly and it is served on china.
>
> Jack

And lunch starts at 2 and may end as late as 6 or later. But usually it's
two hours to enjoy the totality of starting with antipastos,
beer/wine/tequila, sopa mojada, sopa seca, main dish, side dishes, cerveza,
water, refrescos, aguas ending with brandy, postres, cafe con leche or
espreso. Most of the time will be in conversation about the height, width
and size of women and various parts of women, music, prior meals, country
politics, business stuff occasionally, family, people, music, food, women...
ad infinitum. Heaven on earth!!!!


>

Jack Tyler wrote:

> "Rich" Mexicans eat the same thing that you eat. They eat lobsters and
> (American cut)steaks and Continental cuisine...

Are you trying to tell me that you can't find high quality criollo or
chilango or Spanish colonial style cooking *anywhere* in the largest
city in the western hemisphere?

> What you get when you pay more money in Mexico is service and presentation.
> Instead of getting posole in a huge bowl with gristle in the pork, you
> get less posole... a wider, shallower bowl, garnished well and with
> leaner pork.

It's still posole. I've tried posole and menudo and birria, so I know
what they are. They are peasant stews, made with trash meat. Now I want
to try other Mexican cooking styles beside Sonoran peasant cooking.

> Dishes that are typically served with flair, such as
> Chiles en Nogada (commonly felt to be the national dish), are served to
> the wealthy, too... the walnut sauce is richer... the pomegranate seeds
> are distributed neatly and it is served on china.

I haven't seen that dish offered on any menu in California. All the
Mexican immigrants must be from some other part of Mexico where they
don't think Chiles en Nogada are the national dish.

All I see is the same Sonoran peasant cooking. Somebody opened a
Oaxacan taco stand on the busy corner of Hollywood Boulevard and
Western. A Sonoran-style place had been there for years.

I stopped and tried a tlayuda. It sucked. That place went out of
business in a few months.
Customers seem to expect that typical Mexican cooking is Sonoran-style.

Let's Pretend wrote:
>
> I haven't seen that dish offered on any menu in California. All the
> Mexican immigrants must be from some other part of Mexico where they
> don't think Chiles en Nogada are the national dish.

Chiles en Nogada is a dish that is frequently found on menus in Mexican
restaurants in Houston. There are many restaurants here that
specialize in regional Mexican cooking. I don't know if your quote,
above, is sincere or sarcastic, so I will elaborate on chiles en nogada
for any here who don't know what it is and care. Mexican Independence
day is traditionally celebrated with this dish... all over the
country... the dish is served frequently served all through September
as a tribute to Mexico. It originated in Puebla and is made from
meat-stuffed poblano peppers (green) stuffed with a meat and fruit
(with almonds, raisins and cinnamon)... covered with a walnut pureed
sauce (white) and sprinkled with Pomegranate seeds (red)... hence it
has the three colors of the Mexican flag. Aside from the fact that the
dish is served as a celebratory feast during September, the other
reason that it isn't served (classic recipe with pomegranates) during
the Summer, is that Pomegranates aren't in season until around
September. I found a restaurant in Merida (Casa de Frida) that serves
the dish year-round, but substitutes strawberry bits for the fruit, to
get the red color. It is also a dish that can be served room
temperature (a la Casa de Frida) and there is controversy about that
practice, as far as the debate about "authenticity" is concerned.
Either way it is served, it is delicious and lends itself to
presentation at upscale restaurants, as well as restaurants serving the
masses.

Much like Motulenos, or Motul-style eggs, Chiles en Nogada is a dish
that I seem to eat on every trip to Mexico, which is at least 3 times a
month.

Jack

Let's Pretend wrote:
> I want to order a meal in an upscale Mexican restaurant, and then when
> I come back home, I want my wife to attempt to recreate this upscale
> Mexican meal.
>
> What do I order in this restaurant which has no wall menu and doesn't
> serve trash meat?
>
> Come on, people. Inspire me. What do rich Mexicans eat, when they're
> not trying to recreate Mexican "soul food"?
>
> Don't forget, I can afford to buy a decent meal.

OK, I believe that, in this thread, I mentioned one of my favorite
restaurants in Mexico City. It's not cheap... it's definitely upscale
and it's where I might go in the evening with my business partner in
Mexico City (adequately wealthy, per your request). The menu at
Hacienda de los Morales is typical of the type of restaurant with
dishes you might order if you were well-healed. It's in the Polanco
area, near our office there. Link below:

http://www.haciendadelosmorales.com/index.php

Enjoy,

Jack

Hi,
I just came upon this group, and had to respond when I saw the mention
of my favorite Mexican dish, chiles en nogada, (and one of my favorite
restaurants, La Casa de Frida). It is indeed incredibly delicious, and
in my opinion, it is the pinnacle of fine Mexican cuisine, rivalling
anything French chefs have invented.

I have travelled to Mexico many, many times. My comadre who lives in
Tlaxcala has prepared chiles en nogada for me a number of times during
my visits in August. It is quite a time consuming dish... I have spent
some hours removing the thin skin off of walnuts for my comadre!

I had never seen the dish on a restaurant menu in Mexico (granted I have
never been to Mexico in September) until last February when I visited La
Casa de Frida in Merida, Yucatan. There were a lot of things on the
menu that sounded very interesting, but with chiles en nogada on the
menu, there was no contest!! And it did not disappoint! Although the
menu said that the nogada sauce was made with pecans rather than walnuts
it was just as good as my comadre's. I had told my travelling companion
many times about this wonderful dish, and one taste convinced him that I
wasn't exaggerating.

We are going back to Merida at Christmas time, and are looking forward
having more chiles en nogada at Frida's.

Oh, and huevos motuleños!!! When I am in the Yucatan I have those
every morning for breakfast!

Regards,
Bill

William wrote:
> We are going back to Merida at Christmas time, and are looking forward
> having more chiles en nogada at Frida's.
>
> Oh, and huevos motuleños!!! When I am in the Yucatan I have those
> every morning for breakfast!
>
> Regards,
> Bill

I was intruduced to the restaurant by a guide (Carlos) who took me from
Merida to Chichen Itza this past Summer. His wife is the chef/owner.
Great little restaurant... then, Pancho's afterwards for Tequila and
Yucatan coffee.

Jack

"Jack Tyler" > wrote in message
oups.com...

William wrote:
> We are going back to Merida at Christmas time, and are looking forward
> having more chiles en nogada at Frida's.
>
> Oh, and huevos motuleños!!! When I am in the Yucatan I have those
> every morning for breakfast!
>
> Regards,
> Bill

I was intruduced to the restaurant by a guide (Carlos) who took me from
Merida to Chichen Itza this past Summer. His wife is the chef/owner.
Great little restaurant... then, Pancho's afterwards for Tequila and
Yucatan coffee.

Jack

Yucatan coffee? You caught my attention here because coffee grows at some
elevation above sea level and not very well in the kind of soil Yucatan
enjoys. Can you give us a bit more info on this? Our closest friend back
when we had our own ranch in Veracrus had a coffee plantation halfway
between Mtz de la Torre and Tezhiutlan in the high cloud covered mountain
pass between the tropics and the Puebla valley. It was the best coffee I
ever had.

Wayne

Jack Tyler wrote:

> OK, I believe that, in this thread, I mentioned one of my favorite
> restaurants in Mexico City. It's not cheap... it's definitely upscale
> and it's where I might go in the evening with my business partner in
> Mexico City (adequately wealthy, per your request). The menu at
> Hacienda de los Morales is typical of the type of restaurant with
> dishes you might order if you were well-healed. It's in the Polanco
> area, near our office there. Link below:
>
> http://www.haciendadelosmorales.com/index.php

Oh, dear Lord. There *is* a culinary heaven, hidden away in the capital
of Mexico!

Some of the entrees a

Menu

Platillos Mexicanos

Los Camarones Gigantes al Ixtoc con Huitlacoche 6 camarones grandes
(U-10), sazonados con sal, pimienta y jugo de limón, cocinados en
sartén con aceite, cebolla y chile serrano fileteado, huitlacoche y
fumet de pescado. Servido en legumbreras acompañado de arroz blanco.


El Lomo de Robalo a la Veracruzana Lomo de Robalo (200 grs.) sazonado
con sal, pimienta y jugo de limón, cocinado al vapor, salsa hecha a
base de pimientos, cebolla, jitomate, hierbas de olor y vino blanco. Se
sirve con alcaparra, chiles güeros, aceitunas verdes y dos papas al
vapor.

La Trucha Estilo Malinalco Trucha rellena de champiñones, sazonado
con sal, pimienta y jugo de limón, cocinada al horno y gratinada con
queso manchego. Se sirve en platón con salsa de chile guajillo y
guarnición de arroz a la mexicana.

El Pollito de Leche Relleno de Huitlacoche Medio pollito deshuesado,
relleno de huitlacoche y queso manchego sazonado con sal y pimienta,
cocinado al horno. Se sirve en platón con salsa de chile guajillo y
arroz a la mexicana.

El Pato de Granja en Pipián Medio pato cocido al horno, rebanado y
servido en plato trinche con salsa de pipián verde y guarnición de
arroz a la mexicana.

El Pollo en Mole Poblano Pollo cocido; pierna, muslo y pechuga.
Servido en platón, bañado con mole poblano y ajonjolí, acompañado
de arroz a la mexicana.

La Carne Asada a la Tampiqueña Filete de res (200 grs.) abierto,
sazonado con sal y pimienta. Cocinado a la plancha al momento. Servido
en platón con guarnición de rajas, frijoles, guacamole y enchilada de
pollo con mole.

Las Puntas de Filete al Albañil Filete de res (180 grs.) cortado en
trozos pequeños, sazonado con sal y pimienta, cocinado a la plancha y
mezclado con champiñón, tocino y rajas de chile serrano, servido en
platón y acompañado con tortillas y frijoles.
La Arrachera Norteña Arrachera de res (200 grs.) marinada con ajo,
hierbas de olor y pimienta, cocinado a la plancha en el momento,
acompañado de frijoles,guacamole, papa rellena y tortillas.

El Medallón de Filete a la Chiapaneca Dos medallones de filete de res
(200 grs.) sazonados con sal y pimienta, cocinado en sartén, gratinado
con queso manchego y salseado con salsa de chile pasilla, servido en
platón acompañado de arroz a la mexicana.

Menú Especialidades de la Semana

Lunes El Lechón al Horno Estilo Don Cándido Un Tierno Lechón de 2
meses de edad, seleccionado especialmente para Usted, de carne suave y
crocante, preparado al horno a fuego lento, acompañado de una papa
rebanada y horneada con hierbas aromáticas y aceite de oliva. Bañado
en una salsa elaborada con el mismo jugo del lechon.

La Langosta Estilo Puerto Nuevo Platillo típico de Puerto Nuevo, Baja
California, una Langosta fresca, frita en manteca de cerdo y
acompañada de arroz rojo, frijoles bayos refritos, salsa de chile de
árbol y mantequilla derretida, acompañada de las típicas tortillas
de harina gigantes recién hechas, del comal a su mesa. Toda una
experiencia de la gastronomía de Baja California.

Martes El Cabrito al Horno Estilo Norteño Cabrito de Carne suave y
tierna, marinado de un día con cebolla, ajo y hierbas de olor,
horneado a fuego lento y acompañado con frijoles, guacamole y
tortillas de harina hechas a mano. Elaborado especialmente para Usted
al mero estilo Norteño.

El Pámpano a la Sal Pámpano entero de 500 grs. Horneado en una costra
de sal de mar gruesa y hierbas de olor durante 25 minutos, acompañado
de una salsa elaborada especialmente por nuestro chef ejecutivo y
deshuesado delicadamente por el mesero frente a Usted, para que
disfrute del sabor natural del Pámpano.

Miércoles La Tradicional y Famosa Barbacoa Estilo Texcoco Suave y
jugosa con carne de cordero seleccionado, cocinada lentamente nuestro
propio pozo artesanal; envuelta en pencas de maguey, servida con un
rico consomé de cordero y la receta única de salsa borracha de La
Hacienda de Los Morales, acompañada también de frijoles negros
refritos y tortillas recién salidas del comal.

Jueves El Roast Beef a la Inglesa Corte suave y jugoso de
aproximadamente 350 gramos del mejor Roast Beef importado y horneado
lentamente hasta alcanzar el punto adecuado al estilo tradicional,
bañado en su propio jugo servido de nuestro carro a su mesa, cortado
frente a Usted para que elija el tamaño de su porción, acompañado de
papas y espinacas a la crema.

El Bacalao Fresco al All-i-oli Tostado Delicioso platillo español,lomo
de Bacalao Chileno fresco, horneado lentamente con una capa de
all-i-oli, especialmente preparada en casa y servido con una salsa de
pimiento rojo.

Viernes El Huachinango al Horno en Salsa de Perejil Platillo típico
de las costas de Veracruz y una especialidad de la Casa, un Huachinango
de 5 kgs. de carne suave y blanca, con un delicado aroma, horneado a
fuego lento con hierbas aromáticas, bañado en una salsa a base de su
propio jugo y perejil, servido de nuestro carro a su mesa cortado
frente a Usted, para que elija el tamaño de su porción.

El Cordero al Horno Estilo Segovia Platillo tradicional Segoviano, de
carne suave y jugosa cordero lechal de 7 semanas de edad y peso
aproximado de 6 kgs. alimentado en pradera con pasto natural, sazonado
con hierbas de olor, horneado a fuego lento y bañado en una salsa
elaborada de su propio jugo y acompañado de una papa rebanada y
horneada con hierbas aromáticas y aceite de oliva.

Sábado Las Paellas: Tradicional o de Mariscos para dos personas
Disfrute de 2 tipos diferentes de Paella: La Tradicional: Preparada al
momento con la receta original compuesta por arroz, aceite de oliva,
camarón, pescado, pollo, almeja, cerdo, verduras, caldo especial de
pescado y chile con azafrán auténtico. De Mariscos: Con los mismos
ingredientes a excepción del pollo y la carne de cerdo. Estas paellas
son abundantes, por lo que se recomiendan para 2 personas.

Domingo La Tradicional y Famosa Barbacoa Estilo Texcoco Suave y jugosa
con carne de cordero seleccionado, cocinada lentamente nuestro propio
pozo artesanal; envuelta en pencas de maguey, servida con un rico
consomé de cordero y la receta única de salsa borracha de La Hacienda
de Los Morales, acompañada también de frijoles negros refritos y
tortillas recién salidas del comal.

Wayne Lundberg wrote:
> Yucatan coffee? You caught my attention here because coffee grows at some
> elevation above sea level and not very well in the kind of soil Yucatan
> enjoys. Can you give us a bit more info on this? Our closest friend back
> when we had our own ranch in Veracrus had a coffee plantation halfway
> between Mtz de la Torre and Tezhiutlan in the high cloud covered mountain
> pass between the tropics and the Puebla valley. It was the best coffee I
> ever had.
>
> Wayne

I hate to dissapoint you, Wayne... I thought about you taking that
wrongly after I had pressed "send". Yucatan coffee is a variation of
Irish coffee... not a coffee grown in the jungles of the Yucatan.
Sorry to get your hopes up for a new species of coffee beans!

Jack

Let's Pretend wrote:
> Oh, dear Lord. There *is* a culinary heaven, hidden away in the capital
> of Mexico!
>
> Some of the entrees a
>

Is Hacienda de los Morales close to what you were looking for? It's
certainly as close as I can get to it with my experiences in Mexico.

Jack

Jack Tyler wrote:

> Is Hacienda de los Morales close to what you were looking for? It's
> certainly as close as I can get to it with my experiences in Mexico.

That's the sort of wide ranging Spanish/Mediterranean/South
American/Mexican menu that I'm interested in. Thanks for the link.

Besides La Casa de Frida, another wonderful restaurant that I found when
I was in Merida last winter is called Ki'bok. They specialize in
gourmet interpretations of Yucatecan cuisine.

Their sopa de cilantro y chaya is delicious. (Chaya is a spinich-like
plant that grows in the Yucatan, and unfortunately is unavailable up
here.)

My favorite entree there was queso relleno (stuffed cheese)... an Edam
cheese stuffed with a filling of pork, beef, and fruit, and topped with
a white sauce and a red sauce. ¡Muy rico!

Bill

William wrote:

> My favorite entree there was queso relleno (stuffed cheese)... an Edam
> cheese stuffed with a filling of pork, beef, and fruit, and topped with
> a white sauce and a red sauce. ¡Muy rico!

That recipe (a melange of Euro-Mexican origins) was posted here about
1999, it's in the book on Latin American cooking by that (Ortiz?) lady
who was a diplomat's wife.

Readers have expressed disappointment in her book because it doesn't
dwell on tacos and other common fiesta foods...

"William" > wrote in message
...
Besides La Casa de Frida, another wonderful restaurant that I found when
I was in Merida last winter is called Ki'bok. They specialize in
gourmet interpretations of Yucatecan cuisine.

Their sopa de cilantro y chaya is delicious. (Chaya is a spinich-like
plant that grows in the Yucatan, and unfortunately is unavailable up
here.)

My favorite entree there was queso relleno (stuffed cheese)... an Edam
cheese stuffed with a filling of pork, beef, and fruit, and topped with
a white sauce and a red sauce. ¡Muy rico!

Bill

How rich we are! Amerindian delights from flora and fauna and the addition
of stuff from all over the world to be used in one combination or other
making for a true cornucopia of delightful mouthfuls. Nowhere else on earth
can we find the combinations found in Mexican cuisine. We take from the
whole planet and make the greatest food on earth.... from pineapple/coconut
desert, to frothing cocolate in water, to chiles enogadas, to mole de pavo,
carnitas, tacos al pastor, quesadillas... the list is simiply too long and
probably the longest on earth if we were to compare dish after dish from So.
Africa, Arabia, England, France, Cuba, Guam, Tokyo, Singapore, HongKong....
Nobody comes close to the variety found in evolving Mexican cusine. And it
is still evolving. The latest evolution is making a poor-man's burrito from
the forties into gourmet menus in Mexico City.

In reference to the cookbook by Elisabeth Lambert Ortiz (The Complete
Book of Mexican Cooking), it's probably my favorite Mexican cookbook.
However, I just checked the index and did not find "Queso relleno" in
it. (I have the recipe however in a small cookbook I bought in the
Yucatan.)

I like Lambert Ortiz's cookbook simply because it doesn't concentrate on
the typical taco fare. In fact I was just using it today preparing for
a dinner party I'm having tomorrow. I want to show the guests that
there is a lot more to Mexican cuisine than what we get in Mexican
restaurants up here.

Here is my menu...
wet soup: sopa de lima (I know it's not really authentic because our
limes up here are not the same, but it's tasty.)

dry soup: arroz verde (rice cooked with a puree of poblano peppers and
parsley... I also added peas which were not in the recipe.)

main course: cerdo en nogada (I sort of combined elements from different
recipes. The pork is mixed with apples, raisins, olives, onions sort of
like a picadillo. The recipe for the nut sauce comes from the Lambert
Ortiz book and is made with pecans, onions, the stock that I cooked the
pork in, and sour cream.)

Frijoles negros (I improvise when I do beans, and I take the easy way
out by using canned beans instead of dry. This time I cooked the
frijoles with onion, garlic, a couple slices of bacon, and shredded
cheese.)

So, after 8 hours in the kitchen today everything is basically ready!

Bill

William wrote:
> In reference to the cookbook by Elisabeth Lambert Ortiz (The Complete
> Book of Mexican Cooking), it's probably my favorite Mexican cookbook.
> However, I just checked the index and did not find "Queso relleno" in
> it. (I have the recipe however in a small cookbook I bought in the
> Yucatan.)

It's probably in her broader work on Latin American cooking.

The book of Latin American cooking /
by Ortiz, Elisabeth Lambert.
New York : Knopf ; ditributed by Random House, 1979. 1979.

See also:

The complete book of Caribbean cooking /
by Ortiz, Elisabeth Lambert.
New York, M. Evans [1973] [1973]

The complete book of Mexican cooking /
by Ortiz, Elisabeth Lambert.
New York, NY: M. Evans & Co.; distributed in association with
Lippincott, Philadelphia, PA: [1967]. [1967].

The food of Spain and Portugal : the complete Iberian cuisine /
by Ortiz, Elisabeth Lambert
New York : Atheneum, 1989. 1989.

Mexican feasts : 50 dishes full of fire and spice /
by Ortiz, Elisabeth Lambert.
London : Southwater, 2000. 2000.

The new complete book of Mexican cooking /
by Ortiz, Elisabeth Lambert., Ortiz, Elisabeth Lambert. The complete
book of Mexican cooking.
New York, NY : HarperCollins, 2000, c1998. 2000, c1998.

A taste of Latin America : recipes and stories /
by Ortiz, Elisabeth Lambert., Caistor, Nick.
New York : Interlink Books, 1999. 1999.

A taste of Mexico : 70 fiery and flavourful recipes from south of the
border /
by Ortiz, Elisabeth Lambert.
New York, NY : SMITHMARK, 1996. 1996.

> I like Lambert Ortiz's cookbook simply because it doesn't concentrate on
> the typical taco fare. In fact I was just using it today preparing for
> a dinner party I'm having tomorrow. I want to show the guests that
> there is a lot more to Mexican cuisine than what we get in Mexican
> restaurants up here.

I've noticed that ;-)

Interesting innovations.... garlic with black beans... sweet stuff with
pork... arroz verde usually made with tomatillo but you're making with chile
(unheard of in Mexico!), but will be great. I love Mexican cuisine for many
reasons. One is that I can experiment with stuff from other parts of the
globe and get by with plenty of yummy's from my family. Another is that
there is a certain discipline to certain specific dishes that must be
followed to the letter as is a Bistec a la Tampiquena. And the last reason
is the chance to get together with people you love or like and enjoy a meal
with a lot of conversation about what the meal is made of, the teacher's
strike in Oaxaca, the funny faces on the politicians...

Wayne

"William" > wrote in message
...
> In reference to the cookbook by Elisabeth Lambert Ortiz (The Complete
> Book of Mexican Cooking), it's probably my favorite Mexican cookbook.
> However, I just checked the index and did not find "Queso relleno" in
> it. (I have the recipe however in a small cookbook I bought in the
> Yucatan.)
>
> I like Lambert Ortiz's cookbook simply because it doesn't concentrate on
> the typical taco fare. In fact I was just using it today preparing for
> a dinner party I'm having tomorrow. I want to show the guests that
> there is a lot more to Mexican cuisine than what we get in Mexican
> restaurants up here.
>
> Here is my menu...
> wet soup: sopa de lima (I know it's not really authentic because our
> limes up here are not the same, but it's tasty.)
>
> dry soup: arroz verde (rice cooked with a puree of poblano peppers and
> parsley... I also added peas which were not in the recipe.)
>
> main course: cerdo en nogada (I sort of combined elements from different
> recipes. The pork is mixed with apples, raisins, olives, onions sort of
> like a picadillo. The recipe for the nut sauce comes from the Lambert
> Ortiz book and is made with pecans, onions, the stock that I cooked the
> pork in, and sour cream.)
>
> Frijoles negros (I improvise when I do beans, and I take the easy way
> out by using canned beans instead of dry. This time I cooked the
> frijoles with onion, garlic, a couple slices of bacon, and shredded
> cheese.)
>
> So, after 8 hours in the kitchen today everything is basically ready!
>
> Bill
>

I don't know that making arroz verde with poblano peppers is unheard of
in Mexico, since that recipe I took exactly from Lambert Ortiz's
cookbook.

I don't know where my grocery store gets its poblano peppers, but they
seem to be quite hot. I know that you can occasionally run into a fiery
poblano, but they are usually supposed to be fairly mild. Well, when I
first tried making this dish (the recipe calls for 4 poblanos), all of
the poblanos were hot... I didn't even have to taste them... I could
smell them! The dish came out tasty but very fiery, as if I had used a
bunch of jalapeños.

When I did the rice for today's dinner party, the poblanos were again
hot. I cut out the veins of the peppers and let them soak in water for
about a half hour. The rice dish ended up having a nice subtle bite,
but was not too spicy.

Bill

Wayne Lundberg wrote:

> Nobody comes close to the variety found in evolving Mexican cusine. And it
> is still evolving. The latest evolution is making a poor-man's burrito from
> the forties into gourmet menus in Mexico City.

Say what?

Any level the Mexicans or the CalMex or TexMex or NewMex taco joints
could take a burrito to, the Chinese and French have already explored,
with far more class.

What is an egg-roll, a spicy fried burrito? Egg rolls predate the
chimichanga by at least a thousand years.

Remember that chain of creperies that opened briefly in SoCal back in
the mid-1970's?

What was the name of that chain, anyway? They made crepes on the
backsides of frying pans over canned heat as the pans rotated around
and around in the customers' view.

I had a delightful beef Bourguinon crepe in a casserole for lunch one
day in there.

What could you call that, except a wet burrito, French-style?

I was talking to a Hungarian emigre once. His nickname was "Buzzy"
because his kickstarter always buzzed when he rode his Honda.

I told Buzzy that I was interested in becoming a gourmet, but I didn't
yet know much about cooking, so I would have to all the different style
of cooking.

He said that it really wouldn't be all that difficult, because there
were only *three* basic
styles of cooking: Chinese, Turkish, and French.

I asked him, "Well, what about Hungarian cooking? What about Hungarian
goulash, for instance?"

Buzzy said that Hungarian goulash was just a mixture of Chinese cooking
(the noodles) and French cooking (the sauce), with perhaps a dash of
Turkish influence if a tough meat was thrown into the recipe.

Buzzy insisted that all cooking could be sorted out into the three
types, so I asked him about *Mexican* cooking.

Buzzy said that the tortilla was essentially the same as any Middle
Eastern unleavened flat bread, it didn't rise. The meat was the tough
stringy meat that you would get in Turkey.

The enchilada sauce or mole was comparable to the art of the French
saucier.

And, so far as I know, the precolumbian indigenes never came close to
inventing the noodle, although Chinese and Japanese sailors probably
visited the Pacific
coast of North America.

Oh, maybe some shipwrecked sailors *tried* to make noodles, but corn
doesn't stick together well enough.

Say What? wrote:
> Remember that chain of creperies that opened briefly in SoCal back in
> the mid-1970's?
>
> What was the name of that chain, anyway? They made crepes on the
> backsides of frying pans over canned heat as the pans rotated around
> and around in the customers' view.

Magic Pan

Jack

Let's Pretend wrote:
> Let's pretend that I'm a hard-working wealthy businessman, and I take a
> vacation in Mexico.
>
> Let's also pretend that I've tried tacos and tamales and enchiladas and
> burritos and tostadas and every other kind of fiesta food, washed down
> with copious qauntites of cerveza. Been there, done that, farted and
> belched, staggered and got a DUI.>
> Don't forget, I can afford to buy a decent meal.

I have directed you to La Hacienda de los Morales, my favorite
restaurant in Mexico City, but as a hard-working rich guy, you might
end up in Merida or Campeche. I have a favorite upscale restaurant in
Campeche with a "branch" in Merida. This one is mostly seafood... or,
I should say that if you go there, you are missing the boat if you
don't order seafood. While it is in both cities, I prefer the one in
Campeche, as it is where the owner hangs out and he will do
off-the-menu items for you. Entrees range up to $18.00-$20.00, but
most are in the $12.00-$15.00 range. They take traditional Maya and
Spanish recipes and put a contemporary spin on them. Fish Pate...
Shark... Stone Crab... excellent recipes utilizing larger Chiles (like
stuffing them with Calamari). I Googled the place (La Pigua) and found
some critic speaking highly of it and even posting a couple of their
recipes. I have had everything he posted the recipes for and the food
there is wonderful. I try other restaurants in Campeche, but would not
go there without eating at La Pigua:

http://caribtravelnews.com/c0100_02.htm

Enjoy, again.

Jack

Jack Tyler wrote:

> I try other restaurants in Campeche, but would not
> go there without eating at La Pigua:
>
> http://caribtravelnews.com/c0100_02.htm

La Pigua sounds very reasonable, and I will look for it next time I
visit Campeche or Merida.

I couldn't find a translation of the name. It's always nice to know
what the name of a Mexican restaurant translates to, so I know why the
taxi driver is laughing at me when I tell him to take me there.

In the meantime, it would be interesting if some of the self-appointed
"experts" in this NG
offered some useful tips and recipes on preparing seafood, especially
shrimp and langostino.

Shrimp can be boiled, pan fried, deep fried, grilled on a flat plate,
or on a brazier over charcoal.

The cooks seem to know the perfect timing so the shrimp doesn't get
tough. I had some
Camarones Diablos and some Camarones en Salsa Verde at a local
taqueria, and the taste of the shrimp still penetrated the sauce.

I'd like to know how the short order cooks know when to stop cooking
shrimp.

That shouldn't be such a tall order for tacoheads who've gone all the
way down the wall menu...

Let's Pretend wrote:
>
> I couldn't find a translation of the name. It's always nice to know
> what the name of a Mexican restaurant translates to, so I know why the
> taxi driver is laughing at me when I tell him to take me there.
>
In Israel, it seems that a Pigua is a terrorist attack. I'm sure it
means something different in Spanish. However, it isn't in any of my
dictionaries, either.

Jack

Jack Tyler wrote:

> In Israel, it seems that a Pigua is a terrorist attack. I'm sure it
> means something different in Spanish. However, it isn't in any of my
> dictionaries, either.
>
> Jack

I googled on the name, found this site among many:

http://www.los-dos.com/review-la-pigua.htm

Asked what the name meant, and got this response within ten minutes:

"There is no exact translation because it's an animal unique to this
region. About the best translation we have is "river shrimp." It is a
relatively large shrimp that grows in fresh water rivers in these
parts."

I love the web!

David

dtwright37 wrote:

> Asked what the name meant, and got this response within ten minutes:
>
> "There is no exact translation because it's an animal unique to this
> region. About the best translation we have is "river shrimp." It is a
> relatively large shrimp that grows in fresh water rivers in these
> parts."

Maybe it's like a crayfish? They look like miniature lobsters, claws
and all.

I was reading the local Spanish language newspaper yesterday, hoping to
find some unique Mexican recipes instead of tranlations from the Ortiz
books, and I found an advertisement for "freshwater shrimp".

Maybe "freshwater shrimp" is a more acceptable term than "crayfish" to
Mexicans?

Let's Pretend wrote:
> dtwright37 wrote:
>
> > Asked what the name meant, and got this response within ten minutes:
> >
> > "There is no exact translation because it's an animal unique to this
> > region. About the best translation we have is "river shrimp." It is a
> > relatively large shrimp that grows in fresh water rivers in these
> > parts."
>
> Maybe it's like a crayfish? They look like miniature lobsters, claws
> and all.

There are several edible beasts that are "like a crayfish." And every
one I've eaten is tasty.

> I was reading the local Spanish language newspaper yesterday, hoping to
> find some unique Mexican recipes instead of tranlations from the Ortiz
> books, and I found an advertisement for "freshwater shrimp".
>
> Maybe "freshwater shrimp" is a more acceptable term than "crayfish" to
> Mexicans?

Works for me. But then, someone in Mexico along that river decided that
that one beast deserved a new name, and that works too.

David

dtwright37 wrote:
> > Maybe "freshwater shrimp" is a more acceptable term than "crayfish" to
> > Mexicans?
>
> Works for me. But then, someone in Mexico along that river decided that
> that one beast deserved a new name, and that works too.
>
> David

I eat them from time-to-time and it's just a fresh water shrimp, mostly
farm-raised. Not as good as plain old Gulf of Mexico shrimp in my
opinion... but tasty.

Jack

On 27 Oct 2006 13:58:26 -0700, "Let's Pretend"
> wrote:

>
>dtwright37 wrote:
>
>> Asked what the name meant, and got this response within ten minutes:
>>
>> "There is no exact translation because it's an animal unique to this
>> region. About the best translation we have is "river shrimp." It is a
>> relatively large shrimp that grows in fresh water rivers in these
>> parts."
>
>Maybe it's like a crayfish? They look like miniature lobsters, claws
>and all.
>
>I was reading the local Spanish language newspaper yesterday, hoping to
>find some unique Mexican recipes instead of tranlations from the Ortiz
>books, and I found an advertisement for "freshwater shrimp".
>
>Maybe "freshwater shrimp" is a more acceptable term than "crayfish" to
>Mexicans?

It's more likely that it is a shrimp, as there are freshwater shrimp
as well as crayfish.
http://www.shrimpcrabsandcrayfish.co.uk/GhostShrimp.htm
http://nis.gsmfc.org/nis_factsheet2.php?toc_id=142
http://www.shrimpcrabsandcrayfish.co.uk/Longarm.htm

then we have this which does look more like crayfish than a shrimp:
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/113...33121848HqxOfL

What are the upscale parts of Mexico City?

"Let's Pretend" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> dtwright37 wrote:
>
>> Asked what the name meant, and got this response within ten minutes:
>>
>> "There is no exact translation because it's an animal unique to this
>> region. About the best translation we have is "river shrimp." It is a
>> relatively large shrimp that grows in fresh water rivers in these
>> parts."
>
> Maybe it's like a crayfish? They look like miniature lobsters, claws
> and all.
>
> I was reading the local Spanish language newspaper yesterday, hoping to
> find some unique Mexican recipes instead of tranlations from the Ortiz
> books, and I found an advertisement for "freshwater shrimp".
>
> Maybe "freshwater shrimp" is a more acceptable term than "crayfish" to
> Mexicans?

> Where did you get that Info Booger, the Internet?

Jack Tyler wrote:
I try other restaurants in Campeche, but would not
> go there without eating at La Pigua:
>
> http://caribtravelnews.com/c0100_02.htm
>
> Enjoy, again.
>
> Jack

OK, thanks to ThatRich, I now have posted a photo of a Pigua. There
was discussion about whether, or not, this is a shrimp. I had Pigua
bisque in Villahermosa. I believe that the photo link will shed some
light on the controversy:

http://www.pbase.com/that_rich/image/71424275

Gunner can testify that this Pigua is smaller than the other one I
photographed, but the other had already had its legs and grabbers
removed.

Thanks to Rich for the photo bucket.

Jack

wrote:
> What are the upscale parts of Mexico City?

One is the Polanco area where my Mexico City office is... don't know
that much about the city. I get in and get out.

Jack

Jack Tyler wrote:

> OK, thanks to ThatRich, I now have posted a photo of a Pigua. There
> was discussion about whether, or not, this is a shrimp. I had Pigua
> bisque in Villahermosa. I believe that the photo link will shed some
> light on the controversy:
>
> http://www.pbase.com/that_rich/image/71424275

Good work, Jack.

This all started off which me wondering what a "pigua" was, thinking
about the possibility of asking a taxicab driver to lake me to "La
Pigua" and him laughing at me because I'd just foolishly asked him to
take me someplace ridiculous, like a fire plug or something...

And then the discussion followed the typical Usenet pattern of one user
trying to prove that he is superior to the another user.

If I ever get to Merida or Campeche, I will know where to go to try a
dish containing pigua.

But, if the local supermercado doesn't have pigua in its fish
department, I will happily use crayfish or shrimp at home

Journalists, and those who write cookbooks, have a vested interest in
maintaining a certain mystique about where they went and what they ate
while they were there. If a writer said that a pigua looked and tasted
just like a crayfish, why would travellers who are eager to sample new
and different culinary offerings bother to go to a distant place?

OTOH, those who cook at home may consider the price and availability of
pigua vs. shrimp vs. crayfish and select what they can get, or select
what is cheapest.

"The Galloping Gourmand" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Jack Tyler wrote:
>
>> OK, thanks to ThatRich, I now have posted a photo of a Pigua. There
>> was discussion about whether, or not, this is a shrimp. I had Pigua
>> bisque in Villahermosa. I believe that the photo link will shed some
>> light on the controversy:
>>
>> http://www.pbase.com/that_rich/image/71424275
>
> Good work, Jack.
>
> This all started off which me wondering what a "pigua" was, thinking
> about the possibility of asking a taxicab driver to lake me to "La
> Pigua" and him laughing at me because I'd just foolishly asked him to
> take me someplace ridiculous, like a fire plug or something...
>
> And then the discussion followed the typical Usenet pattern of one user
> trying to prove that he is superior to the another user.

Ahh like you pretend?
>
> If I ever get to Merida or Campeche, I will know where to go to try a
> dish containing pigua.
>
> But, if the local supermercado doesn't have pigua in its fish
> department, I will happily use crayfish or shrimp at home
>
> Journalists, and those who write cookbooks, have a vested interest in
> maintaining a certain mystique about where they went and what they ate
> while they were there. If a writer said that a pigua looked and tasted
> just like a crayfish, why would travellers who are eager to sample new
> and different culinary offerings bother to go to a distant place?
>
> OTOH, those who cook at home may consider the price and availability of
> pigua vs. shrimp vs. crayfish and select what they can get, or select
> what is cheapest.

AHH excuse me! Was it not you that was telling Jack this was a crawfish?
oh yea and exactly quoting the Tabasco internet site on the "Alligator head
like gar" in the area. That is what tripped ya up Dirt Bike boy. you
would not know a Gar from a Cat. Nor even what species this "pigua" is.
good attempt at a save but you lost this one, booger boy. In case you have
not figured out by now , I am not stopping till you leave Troll. So go away
and leave this to the adults.

Gunner wrote:

> AHH excuse me! Was it not you that was telling Jack this was a crawfish?
> oh yea and exactly quoting the Tabasco internet site on the "Alligator head
> like gar" in the area. That is what tripped ya up Dirt Bike boy. you
> would not know a Gar from a Cat. Nor even what species this "pigua" is.
> good attempt at a save but you lost this one, booger boy. In case you have
> not figured out by now , I am not stopping till you leave Troll. So go away
> and leave this to the adults.

Who gives a shit about what *species* a pigua is? If you go to a
restaurant and order pigua bisque, the waiter won't know what species
the animal is, the cook won't know, and the restaurant manager won't
know.

Pigua is pigua, and if pigua is a local Mexican river shrimp, that's
where you're going to find it, in regional cooking deep in Mexico.

But if the Mexican restaurant doesn't have pigua, you're going to have
to ask, "Que hay?"
and settle for whatever they offer, whether it's shrimp or crayfish, or
go somewhere else, if you're that stubborn.

Most reasonable people aren't going to take taxis all over a Mexican
town, looking for some specific species of crustacean.

If you go to your local seafood market and ask for Mexican river shrimp
by species name, the guy behind the counter is going to look at you
like you're crazy and tell you that he's never heard of pigua before
(unless he comes from that part of Mexico). He'll try to sell you
whatever he has on hand, while it's still fresh.

So, how about if *you* stop trolling this group with your argumentative
posts and lets find
A Way Forward, out of the Great Dismal Taco Swamp.

In Veracruz, I used to search the Nautla riverbank caves for what we called
langostino, which may be what you folks are calling pigua in other regions.
We'd make chilpachole... a rich soup made with ground chile ancho and stuff.
Shuck the langostino by hand as it comes out of the soup and suck the
juices. A true beard wringer!

Wayne

Wayne Lundberg wrote:
> In Veracruz, I used to search the Nautla riverbank caves for what we called
> langostino, which may be what you folks are calling pigua in other regions.
> We'd make chilpachole... a rich soup made with ground chile ancho and stuff.
> Shuck the langostino by hand as it comes out of the soup and suck the
> juices. A true beard wringer!
>
> Wayne

I'm not sure if you are referring to the Pigua pictured below as a
langostino... however, there is no doubt from the photo that we're
dealing with a shrimp... not a langostino:

http://www.pbase.com/that_rich/image/71424275

Jack