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Historic (rec.food.historic) Discussing and discovering how food was made and prepared way back when--From ancient times down until (& possibly including or even going slightly beyond) the times when industrial revolution began to change our lives. |
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Carne salata vergellata
I have an old Italian recipe which calls for "carne salata vergellata." I am fairly certain that the "carne salata" is "salted meat," but probably not bacon. Can someone tell me about the "vergellata"? Thank you very much for your time. -- Regards, Frank Young 703-527-7684 Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891 "Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte" |
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Carne salata vergellata
> I have an old Italian recipe which calls for "carne salata > vergellata." I am fairly certain that the "carne salata" is > "salted meat," but probably not bacon. Can someone tell me > about the "vergellata"? Something in the brawn/potted-haugh/potted-heid/head-cheese family? ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <======== Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music. |
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Carne salata vergellata
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Carne salata vergellata
A web search on "vergellata" brings up a large number of prints down on
"vergellata paper" (or carte vergellata). Perhaps this is something baked in parchment? toodles, gretchen --On Wednesday, June 02, 2004 3:50 PM +0000 bogus address > wrote: > >> I have an old Italian recipe which calls for "carne salata >> vergellata." I am fairly certain that the "carne salata" is >> "salted meat," but probably not bacon. Can someone tell me >> about the "vergellata"? > > Something in the brawn/potted-haugh/potted-heid/head-cheese family? > > ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce > <======== Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 > 4PU; 0131 6604760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food > intolerance data & recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music > files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music. > |
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Carne salata vergellata
In article >,
Boron Elgar > wrote: >>> I have an old Italian recipe which calls for "carne salata >>> vergellata." I am fairly certain that the "carne salata" is >>> "salted meat," but probably not bacon. Can someone tell me >>> about the "vergellata"? >Going by a bit of googling, I get the impression that this is a sort >of pancetta or bacon type of meat (i do not know if it is pork, >sorry), salted, indeed, and striated with the meat and fat. >Not 100% accurate, to be sure, but perhaps a bit of a clue to further >your search. Yes, I found that, too. The word "vergellata" seems to apply only to meat and to papermaking. I also found "carta vergellata," which seems to be a sort of heavy stock made in former times to be used for lithographs, aquarelles, and the like. Unfortunately, the <Grande Dizionario della Lingua Italiana> is not yet up to the letter "V" -- at least the set to which I have access -- so that avenue is out. I have tried one or two Italian delicatessens with no result. The meat people respond "Huh" when I ask for "carne salata vergellata." Can some kind soul tell me what "vergellata" actually means? Thanks -- Regards, Frank Young 703-527-7684 Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891 "Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte" |
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Carne salata vergellata
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Carne salata vergellata
In , The Bibliographer wrote : > I have an old Italian recipe which calls for "carne salata > vergellata." I am fairly certain that the "carne salata" is "salted > meat," but probably not bacon. Can someone tell me about the > "vergellata"? Thank you very much for your time. From : CRISTOFORO MESSISBUGO secolo XVI quoted in http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Stud...dizionario.htm Vergellata : vergata di grasso e di magro So salted meat streaked of fat and lean, sorry my english isn't quite up to date. -- Salutations, greetings, Guiraud Belissen, Chteau du Ciel, Drachenwald Chris CII, Rennes, France |
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Carne salata vergellata
"Christophe Bachmann" > wrote
> > I have an old Italian recipe which calls for "carne salata > > vergellata." I am fairly certain that the "carne salata" is "salted > > meat," but probably not bacon. Can someone tell me about the > > "vergellata"? Thank you very much for your time. > quoted in http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Stud...dizionario.htm > Vergellata : vergata di grasso e di magro > So salted meat streaked of fat and lean I couldn't find "vergellata" in any online Italian dictionary. Is the word related to "vergata"? "Vergata di grasso e di magro/salted meat streaked of fat and lean" sounds like a version of what we call "streaky bacon" in English. Where's Pastorio? -- Bob Kanyak's Doghouse http://www.kanyak.com |
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Carne salata vergellata
In article > ,
deiusenet > wrote: (The Bibliographer) wrote in : >> Can some kind soul tell me what "vergellata" actually means? >Could it possibly be sliced paper-thin? Like prosciutto? What is the >recipe like? No, I don't think so. The meat is not adjectivally limited by the quality of paper, but rather both the meat and the paper are limited by the quality of "vergellata" -- at least that is how I construe the examples. Here is the recipe: Piglia li peselli con le scorze come stanno & falli dare uno boglio, & togli carne salata vergellata & tagliala in fette sottili et lunghe mezo dito, & frigile uno pocho & dipoi mettili idetti peselli aquocere con la dicta carne & ponivi uno pocho di agresto, uno pocho di sabba, o zucharo & uno pocho di chanella & similemente si frigano li fasoli. The orthography and usage is fifteenth century. The critical point is, I think, defining the adjective "vergellata" as it applies to salted meat (rather than "bacon" or "pancetta"). Thanks for any help. -- Regards, Frank Young 703-527-7684 Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891 "Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte" |
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Carne salata vergellata
In article >,
Christophe Bachmann > wrote: >From : CRISTOFORO MESSISBUGO secolo XVI >quoted in http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Stud...dizionario.htm >Vergellata : vergata di grasso e di magro >So salted meat streaked of fat and lean, sorry my english isn't quite up to >date. So "vergellata" stems in common with "vergata" (streaked, lined)! I can see how modern American bacon can be so described. Perhaps that is it, indeed -- although I still wonder about the constructional relationship between the Renaissance and the modern Italian words. Thanks. -- Regards, Frank Young 703-527-7684 Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891 "Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte" |
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Carne salata vergellata
In article >,
Opinicus > wrote: >"Christophe Bachmann" > wrote >> > I have an old Italian recipe which calls for "carne salata >> > vergellata." >> quoted in >http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Stud...dizionario.htm >> Vergellata : vergata di grasso e di magro >> So salted meat streaked of fat and lean >I couldn't find "vergellata" in any online Italian >dictionary. Is the word related to "vergata"? I know -- I tried all of them I could find. >"Vergata di grasso e di magro/salted meat streaked of fat >and lean" sounds like a version of what we call "streaky >bacon" in English. Off to find more about streaky bacon. Thanks. -- Regards, Frank Young 703-527-7684 Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891 "Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte" |
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Carne salata vergellata
Opinicus wrote:
> "Christophe Bachmann" > wrote > > >>>I have an old Italian recipe which calls for "carne > > salata > >>>vergellata." I am fairly certain that the "carne salata" > > is "salted > >>>meat," but probably not bacon. Can someone tell me about > > the > >>>"vergellata"? Thank you very much for your time. > >>quoted in > > http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Stud...dizionario.htm > >>Vergellata : vergata di grasso e di magro >>So salted meat streaked of fat and lean > > I couldn't find "vergellata" in any online Italian > dictionary. Is the word related to "vergata"? > > "Vergata di grasso e di magro/salted meat streaked of fat > and lean" sounds like a version of what we call "streaky > bacon" in English. > > Where's Pastorio? "Vergata" comes closest to "layered" as in geology, or "laid" as in papermaking. So, yes, bacon-looking meats with cross-sections showing fat and lean strata. Streaky bacon in Brittania and just plain bacon in the US. Canadian bacon is a different, equally lovely creature. Pastorio |
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Carne salata vergellata
On 1 Jun 2004 18:02:50 -0400, (The Bibliographer)
wrote: > >I have an old Italian recipe which calls for "carne salata >vergellata." I am fairly certain that the "carne salata" is "salted >meat," but probably not bacon. Can someone tell me about the "vergellata"? >Thank you very much for your time. >>So, yes, bacon-looking meats with cross-sections showing >> fat and lean strata. >> Streaky bacon in Brittania and just plain bacon in the US. For Italian adjectives, you want to look up the masculine singular forms, not the feminine forms (or any plural ones). So, vergellato (masculine) instead of vergelleta (feminine) or vergellati (masculine plural) or vergellate (feminine plural). If you google that word, vergellato, you'll find this page: http://www.emmeti.it/Cucina/Lazio/St...RT.107.it.html which is quite dense, but it mentions "ponendovi quattro lardelli di presciutto vergellato (= vergato di grasso e di magro) per ciascun pezzo" Place 4 slices of prosciutto vergellato (= streaked with fat and lean) per each piece. (a lardello means slice or rasher, always referring to fat, or to what we would call loosely, bacon) Though vergellato is probably from a verb such as vergellare, that doesn't help me as I don't know what vergellare means, either. I think you're right about it being an older word. All this is just to say I think everybody is on the right track, though someone on it.hobby.cucina could probably pin the term right down. I think the Italian word that people might use today for streaky might be something like "lardellato", perhaps. |
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Carne salata vergellata
"Randal Oulton" > wrote
> For Italian adjectives, you want to look up the masculine singular > forms, not the feminine forms (or any plural ones). So, vergellato > (masculine) instead of vergelleta (feminine) or vergellati (masculine > plural) or vergellate (feminine plural). Ah, the demon of grammatical gender strikes again. As a former Latin teacher I should have remembered this. Here's a very interesting page Google fetched up on "vergellato" "Five stuffing recipes from 16th century Italian texts" http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/stuffing.html -- Bob Kanyak's Doghouse http://www.kanyak.com |
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Carne salata vergellata
My Italian girlfriend doesn't know the word, nor do any of her fairly
substantial dictionaries of the current language. I'll be in a good library on monday; if it's still a mystery then, I'll see what I can find. Lazarus Ps. We could do with a few Italian members on this newsgroup. And maybe some French, Lebanese or Egyptian and Chinese folk. Would save a lot of bother. -- Remover the rock from the email address |
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Carne salata vergellata
In article >,
Lazarus Cooke > wrote: >I'll be in a good library on monday; if it's still a mystery then, I'll >see what I can find. As others have said, it seems to mean "layered with alternating fat and lean." If you do have access to an up-to-date <Grade Dizionario della Lingua Italiana>, I would be grateful if you could check if the set is up to the "V"'s. Thanks. -- Regards, Frank Young 703-527-7684 Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891 "Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte" |
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Carne salata vergellata
In article >, The Bibliographer
> wrote: > As others have said, it seems to mean "layered with alternating fat and > lean." If you do have access to an up-to-date <Grade Dizionario della > Lingua Italiana>, I would be grateful if you could check if the set is up > to the "V"'s. Thanks. It doesn't add much to our knowledge. I add one of the definitions of 'Veregella' simply for academic interest. (There may be spelling mistakes in the Martino excerpt. My Italian girlfriend tells me it looks damn poor Italian to her, but it's very old). Grande dizionario della Lingua Italiana - Salvatore Battaglia vol xxi Vergellata agg. Gastron. Ant. Che presenta filamenti di grasso (la carne) Maestro Martino, LXVI-I-131 Togli la carne salata che (sia) vergellata di grasso e magro insieme, e tagliala in fette, e ponile accocere ne la padella e non le lassare troppo cocere. Deriv. da vergella, col suff. del part. pass. Vergella - sf. Verga di piccole dimensioni, bacchetta, bastoncello - Figur. Membro virile (anche di animali) Lazarus -- Remover the rock from the email address |
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Carne salata vergellata
In article >,
Lazarus Cooke > wrote: >In article >, The Bibliographer > wrote: >> As others have said, it seems to mean "layered with alternating fat and >> lean." If you do have access to an up-to-date <Grade Dizionario della >> Lingua Italiana>, >Grande dizionario della Lingua Italiana - Salvatore Battaglia >vol xxi >Vergellata Thank you many times -- that's just right. Martino's manuscript (Vatican Urb. Lat. 1203) is my text!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- Regards, Frank Young 703-527-7684 Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891 "Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte" |
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Carne salata vergellata
In article >,
Bob (this one) > wrote: >Opinicus wrote: >> "Christophe Bachmann" > wrote >>>>I have an old Italian recipe which calls for "carne >> salata >>>>vergellata." I am fairly certain that the "carne salata" >> is "salted >>>>meat," but probably not bacon. Can someone tell me about -- snip -- >>>quoted in >> http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Stud...dizionario.htm >>>Vergellata : vergata di grasso e di magro >>>So salted meat streaked of fat and lean >> -- snip -- >> >> "Vergata di grasso e di magro/salted meat streaked of fat >> and lean" sounds like a version of what we call "streaky >> bacon" in English. >> >"Vergata" comes closest to "layered" as in geology, or "laid" as in >papermaking. So, yes, bacon-looking meats with cross-sections showing > fat and lean strata. > >Streaky bacon in Brittania and just plain bacon in the US. Canadian >bacon is a different, equally lovely creature. Perhaps the southern US product known as "streak-of-lean" which is like salt-pork but meatier & not as salty ?? I wouldn't say it sounds like bacon though, which is smoked & salt or sugar cured pork belly. Pancetta, I believe, is cured but not smoked, pork belly as well. I don't think pancetta is a fit either. Perhaps the layering pertains to the curing method - layering pork belly (keeping with the streaks of fat theme) in a barrel with salt. Like or as salt-pork, but with a regional name or method. Or maybe its a product like the beloved Pittsburgh specialty "chipped, chopped ham"; ie, the saltiest ham you can find, sliced thinner than paper so it falls to pieces & ends up in a mound that can't be picked apart unless you have long fingernails & a ton of patience. Sort of like paper making - pulp + water + adhesive (fat), layer, drain, dry (roughly). |
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Carne salata vergellata
The Bibliographer > wrote:
> Piglia li peselli con le scorze come stanno & falli dare uno boglio, which is the meaning of this? The round peas or just the sugar peas? As for the general question: yes, you got very good answers. Vergellata equals to variegata: 'veined with' -- lilian |
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I just came across this post as I was looking for a recipe for carne salata.
I usually order this dish at a restaurant in Valpolicella and my best guess is that vergelatta has nothing to do with the marbelling of the meat Typically we are talking about a pretty lean piece of beef that has been cured (salata) not necessarily like salted pork but more like beef cured in a similar fashion to gravelox. I am pretty sure it is typical for the lakes region of northern Italy. Not unlike carpaccio, but sliced slightly thicker it is serverd as an appetizer at room temperture and sometimes dressed with some EVOO. From my experience with Italian food in Italy as well as my somewhat deterioriating fluency in the Italian language I bet you that vergellata pertains to the slicing of the meat (made to look like paper). Would be interested in hearing back from somebody. J Quote:
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