Opinicus wrote:
>
> Following this thread, one of the things that astonishes me
> is that the Chinese should have observed a relationship
> between an eggplant and a tomato.
>
> --
> Bob


Why? They need only have seen what either plant looks like to see that
are related.

Frogleg wrote:
>
> On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
> >
> >It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this discussion.
>
> Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World ingredient
> that's "typically Italian."

True, although polenta was made from other grains prior to the
introduction of maize.

"ASmith1946" > wrote

> Mandrake fruit are commonly eaten in Israel (and I suspect
Turkey?)

I've never heard of the fruit. The root is of course used in
various folk remedies.

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Charles Gifford wrote:
> >
> > "Arri London" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > ASmith1946 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >But I always thought the little specks in commercial bananas were
> > seeds,
> > > > >although sterile?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Heck if I know-- I didn't write a book about bananas
> > > >
> > > > Andy Smith
> > >
> > > LOL! No neither did I.
> > > But I suppose the container (for seeds) concept still stands, even if
> > > the container is empty.
> >
> > The banana is an herb. I thought that the bit we eat is an ovary.
> >
> > Charlie
>
> Don't know of the banana is an herb; a herbaceous plant isn't
> necessarily an herb. Just not woody.
> Here is info from the experts:
> http://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/banana.html

Herb in this context can equal herbaceous, I believe. The site you posted
seems to indicate that what we eat is a berry, eh? Cool!

Charlie

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Frogleg wrote:
> >
> > On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
> > >
> > >It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this
discussion.
> >
> > Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World ingredient
> > that's "typically Italian."
>
> True, although polenta was made from other grains prior to the
> introduction of maize.

I read somewhere just recently that "polenta" was also made from chestnut
flour.

Charlie

>> Actually, so did everyone else. The two plants are remotely related
>> botanically. Most early European herbals listed tomatoes as a variety of
>
>Not so remote a connection--they belong to the same genus (Solanum).
>

Not quite. Eggplants and tomatoes are members of the Solanaceae family.
Lycopersicon (which includes only tomatoes) is a separate genus within the
family. This been debated for years and, alas, not all botanists agree (can you
imagine that?). Many botany books have it wrong.

See Charles Rick, "Biosystematic Studies in Lycopersicon and Closely Related
Species of Solanum," in J. G. Hawkes, R. N. Lester, and A. D. Skelding, eds.,
The Biology and Taxonomy of the Solanaceae (London: Academic Press, 1979),
667-77, and the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature.

Andy Smith

Andy Smith

On 15 May 2004, ASmith1946 wrote:

> >> Actually, so did everyone else. The two plants are remotely related
> >> botanically. Most early European herbals listed tomatoes as a variety of
> >
> >Not so remote a connection--they belong to the same genus (Solanum).
> >
>
> Not quite. Eggplants and tomatoes are members of the Solanaceae family.
> Lycopersicon (which includes only tomatoes) is a separate genus within the
> family. This been debated for years and, alas, not all botanists agree (can you
> imagine that?). Many botany books have it wrong.
>
> See Charles Rick, "Biosystematic Studies in Lycopersicon and Closely Related
> Species of Solanum," in J. G. Hawkes, R. N. Lester, and A. D. Skelding, eds.,
> The Biology and Taxonomy of the Solanaceae (London: Academic Press, 1979),
> 667-77, and the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature.

Well, more recently Lycopersicon has been melded into Solanum. I could get
you references, but looking up L Bohs, R Olmstead or D Spooner should
help.

-Geeta

"R. Geeta" > wrote

> Well, more recently Lycopersicon has been melded into
Solanum. I could get
> you references, but looking up L Bohs, R Olmstead or D
Spooner should
> help.

Well at least the Chinese were able to sort it out.
Apparently quite a long time ago, too.
;-)

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com

>
>> Not quite. Eggplants and tomatoes are members of the Solanaceae family.
>> Lycopersicon (which includes only tomatoes) is a separate genus within the
>> family. This been debated for years and, alas, not all botanists agree (can
>you
>> imagine that?). Many botany books have it wrong.
>>
>> See Charles Rick, "Biosystematic Studies in Lycopersicon and Closely
>Related
>> Species of Solanum," in J. G. Hawkes, R. N. Lester, and A. D. Skelding,
>eds.,
>> The Biology and Taxonomy of the Solanaceae (London: Academic Press, 1979),
>> 667-77, and the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature.
>
>Well, more recently Lycopersicon has been melded into Solanum. I could get
>you references, but looking up L Bohs, R Olmstead or D Spooner should
>help.
>

It is true that recent systematics studies have suggested that Lycopersicon
should lose its genus status, but to the best of my knowledge, to the best on
my knowledge, the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature (2000 is the
most recent I have-- is there a more recent version?) has not been changed.
Until it is, it will continue to be correctly listed as a genus.

And I doubt that it will be changed, regardless of systematic studies. My
reasons have nothing to do with DNA analysis and everything to do with the
potential economic consequences of the change.

Andy Smith

Charles Gifford wrote:
>
> "Arri London" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Charles Gifford wrote:
> > >
> > > "Arri London" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ASmith1946 wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >But I always thought the little specks in commercial bananas were
> > > seeds,
> > > > > >although sterile?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Heck if I know-- I didn't write a book about bananas
> > > > >
> > > > > Andy Smith
> > > >
> > > > LOL! No neither did I.
> > > > But I suppose the container (for seeds) concept still stands, even if
> > > > the container is empty.
> > >
> > > The banana is an herb. I thought that the bit we eat is an ovary.
> > >
> > > Charlie
> >
> > Don't know of the banana is an herb; a herbaceous plant isn't
> > necessarily an herb. Just not woody.
> > Here is info from the experts:
> > http://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/banana.html
>
> Herb in this context can equal herbaceous, I believe. The site you posted
> seems to indicate that what we eat is a berry, eh? Cool!
>
> Charlie

Hard to say. Although banana leaves are used as plates and containers
for foods, are they eaten as such. We tend to use 'herb' for something
that is eaten or used medicinally.

And I'm not going to get into whether a banana is a berry LOL!

Charles Gifford wrote:
>
> "Arri London" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Frogleg wrote:
> > >
> > > On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
> > > >
> > > >It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this
> discussion.
> > >
> > > Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World ingredient
> > > that's "typically Italian."
> >
> > True, although polenta was made from other grains prior to the
> > introduction of maize.
>
> I read somewhere just recently that "polenta" was also made from chestnut
> flour.
>
> Charlie

Could easily be true. The French have used chestnut flour to make purees
along the lines of mashed potato. Why not the Italians.

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Charles Gifford wrote:
> >
> > "Arri London" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > Frogleg wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this
> > discussion.
> > > >
> > > > Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World
ingredient
> > > > that's "typically Italian."
> > >
> > > True, although polenta was made from other grains prior to the
> > > introduction of maize.
> >
> > I read somewhere just recently that "polenta" was also made from
chestnut
> > flour.
> >
> > Charlie
>
> Could easily be true. The French have used chestnut flour to make purees
> along the lines of mashed potato. Why not the Italians.

I stayed in a small town north of Verona a few years back and they had
chestnut trees all around. Apparently it was a staple at one time in the
past, though I don't know exactly when.

Steve

Frogleg wrote:
> On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
>
>>It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this discussion.
>
>
> Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World ingredient
> that's "typically Italian."

Polenta and cornmeal mush are the same thing. They are both cornmeal
and water. So polenta is not unique or original to Italy. African
countries that use a lot of corn probably have their own versions.

Fancy Old World polenta has a little parmesan added. Fancy New World
cornmeal mush has a little cheddar added to the dish.

Cookie

In ,
Frogleg wrote :

> On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
>>
>> It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this
>> discussion.
>
> Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World ingredient
> that's "typically Italian."

In the Aosta valley (northern Italy), italophone Switzerland and
south-eastern France true polenta is still made from chestnut flour, the
maize flour substitute is also (more and more) named polenta, and sorrily
the chestnut polenta is being slowly forgotten, but maize is clearly a
substitute.

--
Salutations, greetings,
Guiraud Belissen, Chteau du Ciel, Drachenwald
Chris CII, Rennes, France

wrote:
>
> "Arri London" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Charles Gifford wrote:
> > >
> > > "Arri London" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Frogleg wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this
> > > discussion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World
> ingredient
> > > > > that's "typically Italian."
> > > >
> > > > True, although polenta was made from other grains prior to the
> > > > introduction of maize.
> > >
> > > I read somewhere just recently that "polenta" was also made from
> chestnut
> > > flour.
> > >
> > > Charlie
> >
> > Could easily be true. The French have used chestnut flour to make purees
> > along the lines of mashed potato. Why not the Italians.
>
> I stayed in a small town north of Verona a few years back and they had
> chestnut trees all around. Apparently it was a staple at one time in the
> past, though I don't know exactly when.
>
> Steve

Probably not all that long ago. They are pretty nutritious I think.
The dried chestnuts in the Chinese shops are pretty good and quite
cheap.

Cookie Cutter wrote:

> Frogleg wrote:
>
>> On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within
>>> this discussion.
>>
>> Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World
>> ingredient that's "typically Italian."
>
> Polenta and cornmeal mush are the same thing.

They *can be* the same thing. But they aren't necessarily the same.
Different kinds of corn, processed differently give different finished
results. Different cooking techniques give different results. Some
people hereabouts in Virginia make mush in double boilers. Decidedly
not a traditional Italian approach.

> They are both cornmeal and water.

And don't forget the salt. But it's not that simple. Here in the
American south where I live, mush can be made with many different
ingredients like milk, sugar, egg, bacon fat, etc.

My northern Italian family eats polenta that's bare bones yellow corn
meal, water and salt with never another thing added to that basic
formula. Others have their variants, but polenta is typically seen as
a foil for other foods rather than something to stand out on its own.

> So polenta is not unique or original to Italy. African countries
> that use a lot of corn probably have their own versions.

I don't think anyone said that it was uniquely Italian. Most likely,
anywhere they grow corn has a variation of the basic boiled dried,
cracked corn. According to Gary Jennings in private conversation some
years back, the Aztecs made a gruel from lightly cracked corn simmered
for a long time. I've come to the conclusion that the only thing new
under the sun is "Non-fat coffee cream" (honest. At my sister's house
yesterday).

> Fancy Old World polenta has a little parmesan added.

Not necessarily, and not usually.

> Fancy New World cornmeal mush has a little cheddar added to the
> dish.

I guess it depends on where you live and what the traditions there
are. And don't forget grits (made from hominy rather than plain ground
corn).

Pastorio

In article >, this one
> wrote:

> I've come to the conclusion that the only thing new
> under the sun is "Non-fat coffee cream" (honest. At my sister's house
> yesterday).

I remember years ago seeing a great packet:

"Omlette mixtu just add eggs"

!!!!

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

bogus address wrote:
>
> >>>> I read somewhere just recently that "polenta" was also made from
> >>>> chestnut flour.
> >>> Could easily be true. The French have used chestnut flour to make
> >>> purees along the lines of mashed potato. Why not the Italians.
> >> I stayed in a small town north of Verona a few years back and they
> >> had chestnut trees all around. Apparently it was a staple at one
> >> time in the past, though I don't know exactly when.
> > Probably not all that long ago. They are pretty nutritious I think.
> > The dried chestnuts in the Chinese shops are pretty good and quite
> > cheap.
>
> Italian delis in Edinburgh sell chestnut flour, don't they all?
>
> It's a good flour to use for a non-wheat version of malt bread.
>

Most wholefood shops sell chestnut flour as well. Have never tried it in
baking. Thanks for the tip.

ASmith1946 > wrote:

> The organization I run (www.globaled.org) operates programs in the PRC and we
> have a staff member who is Chinese. Then, we work closely with the Chinese
> community in New York, and they say the same thing. And then the title of the
> Mandarin language version of my previously mentioend tomato book is "fan qui."
> That's it.
>
That's it: but having asked a couple of sinologist (Chinese speakers are
not famous for their controll of pinyin) and a Chinese cook, I mantain
you have a typo on that cover. If you "qui" [sic] has the grass on the
top, the force on the left and the mouth on the right even the Oxford
dictionary gives me plenty on ground and states that I am right. If the
word is, on the other hand, written in a different way, I am quite
curious to know which one it is. Could you please post a link to the
Chinese character?

--
lilian

Lillian:

There is a typo, not on the cover, but in my post. It should have been "Fan
Qie," not "Fan Qui."

If you really must have the Chinese characters, go into OCLC, search under my
name and the Engliah title of the book: "The Tomato in America." Enjoy!

OCLC's transliteration of the title page is below.

Andy Smith

Fan qie =
The tomato in America /
Andrew F Smith; Qifen Xu

2000 Chu ban.
Chinese Book 241 p. ; ill. ; 20 cm.
Taibei Shi : Lan jing chu pan you xian gong si, ; ISBN: 9579748047 (pbk.) :

>That's it: but having asked a couple of sinologist (Chinese speakers are
>not famous for their controll of pinyin) and a Chinese cook, I mantain
>you have a typo on that cover. If you "qui" [sic] has the grass on the
>top, the force on the left and the mouth on the right even the Oxford
>dictionary gives me plenty on ground and states that I am right. If the
>word is, on the other hand, written in a different way, I am quite
>curious to know which one it is. Could you please post a link to the
>Chinese character?
>
>--
>lilian
>
>
>
>