Historic (rec.food.historic) Discussing and discovering how food was made and prepared way back when--From ancient times down until (& possibly including or even going slightly beyond) the times when industrial revolution began to change our lives.

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  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lazarus Cooke
 
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Default Balanced diet?

In article >, Christophe Bachmann
> wrote:

> Crab apples (if you can sweeten them)


Honey
L

--
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  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
Frogleg
 
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Default Balanced diet?

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:14:53 +0100, "Christophe Bachmann"
> wrote:

>Frogleg wrote :
>
>> On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:39:47 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Frogleg > wrote:
>>>
>>>> The idea of lying in a hammock and plucking fruit from
>>>> surrounding trees, supplemented by trapping a few fish or shellfish
>>>> sure sounds good. Not many opportunities for same in, say, northern
>>>> Europe.
>>>
>>> Why? Strawberries, mushrooms, apples, blackberries still grow wild
>>> all over the place. Northern seas are far more fruitful for fish than
>>> tropical ones, and the rivers run with salmon and trout.

>
>Apples don't grow wild all over the place, they only grow wild where they
>have been abandoned, any modern fruit must be grafted on a parent stalk to
>grow, and thus any fruit planted is likely to give only crabapples or wild
>pears etc...


Apples from seed almost never produce edible fruit (see: 'The Botany
of Desire'). Apple seeds/trees rarely produce pears. :-)

<snip>
>
>But then again you need quite a roaming space to get enough, medival
>peasants were often reduced to grinding and eating acorns despite it's
>bitterness, after having eaten everything around them.


I wasn't arguing there were were no 'wild' foods available in any
particular area. My comments followed another on the wisdom (and
relative labor involved) in changing from a hunter/gatherer lifestyle
to a fixed location and purposful agriculture and animal husbandry. In
*that context*, life in the tropics might be the model of maximum
benefit from minimum labor. "Temperate" climates pretty much shut down
the production of handy foodstuffs in winter. Hence, an increased need
for labor to gather and preserve. My hypothetical hammock is slung
between coconut palms with a jungle of fruits and veg to one side, and
tidal pools to supply fish and shellfish. I'm hoping for a ship full
of spices to founder offshore soon...
  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
bogus address
 
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Default Balanced diet?


>> Food gathered on communal lands is available to everyone. Once
>> someone claims and enforces ownership, resources previously available
>> are either limited or must be traded. It has a lot to do with the
>> pauperizing of the overall diet.

> Agriculture did that - since to be a successful farmer, one must be
> able to work the land and get the food from it.


That doesn't make any discernible sense. Who are these individual
farmers? - farming is almost always a collective enterprise, whether
by a neolithic village, extended family or a capitalist firm. The
number of farms where only one person works the land is a very small
proportion of the world total and always has been.

And in a capitalist society, the successful farmers are those who don't
farm at all but get others to do it for them. Ownership does not go
along with doing the work.

In fact I suspect that the entire production of those farms and
gardens worldwide where the owner is the only person doing the work
could just vanish and nobody would notice the difference.


> Attempts at group ownership by communist countries generally have
> led to starvation when there hadn't been before.


More often the other way round - see the comparison of India and China
at <http://www.spectrezine.org/global/chomsky.htm>

Ownership by banks or land management corporations is just as much
"group ownership" as ownership by the state or a self-managed
cooperative. The differences are whose interests ownership serves.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

  #45 (permalink)   Report Post  
Christophe Bachmann
 
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Default Balanced diet?



In ,

Frogleg wrote quoting me :

>> Apples don't grow wild all over the place, they only grow wild where
>> they have been abandoned, any modern fruit must be grafted on a
>> parent stalk to grow, and thus any fruit planted is likely to give
>> only crabapples or wild pears etc...

>
> Apples from seed almost never produce edible fruit (see: 'The Botany
> of Desire'). Apple seeds/trees rarely produce pears. :-)


My point exacly, but perhaps badly stated, sorry. Any modern (grafted)
fruit will only revert to it's ancestor species, if it yields anything at
all ; apples give crab-apples and pears give wild pears (better suited for
perry than for eating) and so forth.

> <snip>
>>
>> But then again you need quite a roaming space to get enough, medival
>> peasants were often reduced to grinding and eating acorns despite
>> it's bitterness, after having eaten everything around them.

>
> I wasn't arguing there were were no 'wild' foods available in any
> particular area. My comments followed another on the wisdom (and
> relative labor involved) in changing from a hunter/gatherer lifestyle
> to a fixed location and purposful agriculture and animal husbandry. In
> *that context*, life in the tropics might be the model of maximum
> benefit from minimum labor. "Temperate" climates pretty much shut down
> the production of handy foodstuffs in winter. Hence, an increased need
> for labor to gather and preserve. My hypothetical hammock is slung
> between coconut palms with a jungle of fruits and veg to one side, and
> tidal pools to supply fish and shellfish. I'm hoping for a ship full
> of spices to founder offshore soon...


In olden times of very low density of population you could sling your
hammoc between two elderberry trees, or the walls of a cave, or an igloo,
and just hunt and gather your hearts content up into the polar circle, what
Sami (in lappland) and Inuit (around the polar circle) did until fairly
recently. The change from hunter/gatherer to farmer was in fact initiated
in a very fertile region, mesopotamia, it wasn't the cold of winter, but
the density of population (mostly) who forced the transition.
As I stated before a huter/gatherer need a far greater territory to live
off than a farmer, and when you begin to have lots of border disputes with
increasingly numerous neighbours, it's time to either change your lifestyle
or launch a war to reduce the population around. The bad old 'lebensraum'
theory doesn't begin with NSDAP.
The same holds true of extensive herding/ranching versus intensive farming,
which brought Attila into western europe, and sparked quite some feuds in
the wild west. :-)

--
Salutations, greetings,
Guiraud Belissen, Chteau du Ciel, Drachenwald
Chris CII, Rennes, France




  #46 (permalink)   Report Post  
JE Anderson
 
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Default Balanced diet?


"Christophe Bachmann" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> In ,
> Frogleg wrote :
>
> > On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:39:47 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> In article >, Frogleg
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> The idea of lying in a hammock and plucking fruit from
> >>> surrounding trees, supplemented by trapping a few fish or shellfish
> >>> sure sounds good. Not many opportunities for same in, say, northern
> >>> Europe.
> >>
> >> Why? Strawberries, mushrooms, apples, blackberries still grow wild
> >> all over the place. Northern seas are far more fruitful for fish than
> >> tropical ones, and the rivers run with salmon and trout.

>
>
> Apples don't grow wild all over the place, they only grow wild where they
> have been abandoned, any modern fruit must be grafted on a parent stalk to
> grow,


Where on earth did you get that tidbit? I know of many own-root apple trees
here in Canada. Grafting is used to increase hardiness in the colder zones
but as far as I know you can still grow a productive apple tree from a
seed....

Janet


  #47 (permalink)   Report Post  
David Friedman
 
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Default Balanced diet?

In article <z4x_b.590078$JQ1.91493@pd7tw1no>,
"JE Anderson" > wrote:

> > Apples don't grow wild all over the place, they only grow wild where they
> > have been abandoned, any modern fruit must be grafted on a parent stalk to
> > grow,

>
> Where on earth did you get that tidbit? I know of many own-root apple trees
> here in Canada. Grafting is used to increase hardiness in the colder zones
> but as far as I know you can still grow a productive apple tree from a
> seed....


You can grow an apple tree from a seed, but the fruit won't be the same
as the fruit of the parent tree and the odds are that it won't be good
for eating out of hand, although you could get lucky.

Grafting root stock is used to change things such as tree size and
hardiness. Grafting the part that will become the bearing tree is
used--has been since at least Roman times--to make sure your new tree
bears about the same fruit as the old. Almost all apple trees in
production are clones of other apple trees--at least the top part.

And essentially all the apples we eat are the result of millenia of
selective breeding.

--
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Also remove .invalid
www.daviddfriedman.com
  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
Opinicus
 
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Default Balanced diet?


"David Friedman" > wrote

> > Where on earth did you get that tidbit? I know of many own-root apple

trees
> > here in Canada. Grafting is used to increase hardiness in the colder

zones
> > but as far as I know you can still grow a productive apple tree from a
> > seed....


> You can grow an apple tree from a seed, but the fruit won't be the same
> as the fruit of the parent tree and the odds are that it won't be good
> for eating out of hand, although you could get lucky.


What did Johnny Appleseed spend 49 year of his life doing then?
http://www.applejuice.org/johnnyappleseed.html

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://kanyak.com

  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
Opinicus
 
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Default Apples

This site's rather more clear-eyed and hardnosed about John Chapman (aka
Johnny Appleseed) and what he was doing.

http://www.jappleseed.org/history.html

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://kanyak.com


  #50 (permalink)   Report Post  
Frogleg
 
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Default Apples

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:36:04 +0200, "Opinicus" >
wrote:

>This site's rather more clear-eyed and hardnosed about John Chapman (aka
>Johnny Appleseed) and what he was doing.
>
>http://www.jappleseed.org/history.html


Check out 'The Botany of Desire' (recent best-seller) in your local
library. A quarter of the book is devoted to apple history and
cultivation, as well as considerable material on John Chapman.


  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
Frogleg
 
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Default Balanced diet?

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:41:03 GMT, "JE Anderson" >
wrote:

>but as far as I know you can still grow a productive apple tree from a
>seed....


Wrong. That is, you *can* grow a tree from an apple seed, but there is
virtually no chance it will be identical to its parent tree, nor
anything even close.
  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
Frogleg
 
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Default Balanced diet?

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:08:09 +0200, "Opinicus" >
wrote:

>"Frogleg" > wrote
>
>> Wrong. That is, you *can* grow a tree from an apple seed, but there is
>> virtually no chance it will be identical to its parent tree, nor
>> anything even close.

>
>Hmm...
>
><quote>
>The Van Mons Theory is a case in point. Jean Baptiste Van Mons (1765-1842)
>was a physician and professor at Louvain, Belgium. He spent much of his life
>in attempting to improve the odds of discovering wonderful new varieties of
>fruit, pears in particular. His program was based upon seed selection and
>successive plantings of large nurseries consisting of generation after
>generation of seedling trees.
></quote>
>
>http://www.ciarrai.net/
>
>Look around the middle of the page.


See my original material. No mention of pears there, right? Nor any of
"all fruit trees." Nor any mention in the URL you supply of whether or
not Mr. Van Mons was at all successful in his pear pursuits. Most
modern apple varieties have been happy accidents, rather than the
result of planned seed breeding. Nearly all commercial breeding is the
result of rootstock crosses. Apples just aren't like sweetpeas. Weird,
isn't it?
  #53 (permalink)   Report Post  
David Friedman
 
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Default Balanced diet?

"Opinicus" > wrote in message >...
> "David Friedman" > wrote
>
> > > Where on earth did you get that tidbit? I know of many own-root apple

> trees
> > > here in Canada. Grafting is used to increase hardiness in the colder

> zones
> > > but as far as I know you can still grow a productive apple tree from a
> > > seed....

>
> > You can grow an apple tree from a seed, but the fruit won't be the same
> > as the fruit of the parent tree and the odds are that it won't be good
> > for eating out of hand, although you could get lucky.

>
> What did Johnny Appleseed spend 49 year of his life doing then?
> http://www.applejuice.org/johnnyappleseed.html


Planting trees almost all of which were used to produce cider apples,
not apples to be eaten out of hand.

I believe there's a fairly detailed account in _The Botany of Desire_
  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
Clifford Payne
 
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You mentioned "The records of places like Knole, Hampton Court Palace, and
some of the great religious houses will tell you this."

I"m new to this. Could you tell me how I can find the records you cited, or
similar records?

cliff, from pgh

"Kate Dicey" > wrote in message
...
> Cookie Cutter wrote:
> >
> > >The poor
> > > may have fared better nutritionally by foraging for field greens to
> > > add to grain than the rich with abundant supplies of meat and little
> > > else.

> >
> > Why would the rich not have anything other than meat? They would
> > have had a house full of servants who would have kept the house
> > well-supplied from a kitchen garden.
> >

> Hieatt and Butler have a nice theory: there are many warnings in
> mediaeval and later writings against the dangers of eating salads, and
> their argument is that were it not a great habit of former times to eat
> such things, there would be no need to warn against them. There are
> also plenty of quite elaborate vegetable dishes and dishes containing
> vegetables and meat or fish in Roman and mediaeval cookery writings,
> dishes that would have been hard for peasants and poor townsfolk to
> afford or have the resources and equipment to make (never mind the
> time!), so they must have been eaten in middle class and merchant
> households, or in the houses of the rich and nobility. Another good
> argument in favour of this is that the peasants couldn't write: these
> recipes came from a stratum of society where writing things down was a
> well established habit, places such as religious establishments and the
> houses of great and wealthy.
>
> Kitchen gardens and the still room were often the preserve of the lady
> of the house, and were places where not only herbs and medicinal plants
> were grown, used and stored, but also places where fruits were bottled
> and preserved for use throughout the year. I think it's a great mistake
> to assume from the few surviving menus of mediaeval feasts that the
> upper classes dines exclusively on meat and white bread, especially when
> you look at the methods of preparation of the dishes, and see how many
> had vegetables as a part of their make up, one of the expected
> accompaniments. If you stop looking at menus and look at household
> accounts, you can see that a lot more went into feeding the household
> than meat for the master and pottage for his servant. The records of
> places like Knole, Hampton Court Palace, and some of the great religious
> houses will tell you this. Also take a look at the religious calendar:
> there were days (nay, weeks!) when meat was off limits, and fish had to
> be eaten, and times when BOTH were forbidden.
>
> In addition, and at the other end of society, meat was eaten by the
> peasantry: pigs were kept, and slaughtered and preserved as bacon, for
> example. Pigs could be kept close to the house (they didn't mind the
> smell!), and made a good waste disposal unit that could be eaten later.
> Peasants also had grazing rights for sheep and goats, and while many of
> the ewes were kept for wool and reproduction, the ram lambs would mostly
> be slaughtered for meat. They may not have eaten anything like as much
> meat as the upper and middle classes, but they did get some. More at
> some times of the year, and more in some areas, but pigs, goats, and
> chickens are all kaleyard keepers. Certainly in England it was part of
> a serf's right to have enough time NOT tilling his master's land and
> animals to grow food for his family, and tend his own animals.
> --
> Kate XXXXXX
> Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
> http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
> Click on Kate's Pages and explore!



  #55 (permalink)   Report Post  
Clifford Payne
 
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You mentioned "The records of places like Knole, Hampton Court Palace, and
some of the great religious houses will tell you this."

I"m new to this. Could you tell me how I can find the records you cited, or
similar records?

cliff, from pgh

"Kate Dicey" > wrote in message
...
> Cookie Cutter wrote:
> >
> > >The poor
> > > may have fared better nutritionally by foraging for field greens to
> > > add to grain than the rich with abundant supplies of meat and little
> > > else.

> >
> > Why would the rich not have anything other than meat? They would
> > have had a house full of servants who would have kept the house
> > well-supplied from a kitchen garden.
> >

> Hieatt and Butler have a nice theory: there are many warnings in
> mediaeval and later writings against the dangers of eating salads, and
> their argument is that were it not a great habit of former times to eat
> such things, there would be no need to warn against them. There are
> also plenty of quite elaborate vegetable dishes and dishes containing
> vegetables and meat or fish in Roman and mediaeval cookery writings,
> dishes that would have been hard for peasants and poor townsfolk to
> afford or have the resources and equipment to make (never mind the
> time!), so they must have been eaten in middle class and merchant
> households, or in the houses of the rich and nobility. Another good
> argument in favour of this is that the peasants couldn't write: these
> recipes came from a stratum of society where writing things down was a
> well established habit, places such as religious establishments and the
> houses of great and wealthy.
>
> Kitchen gardens and the still room were often the preserve of the lady
> of the house, and were places where not only herbs and medicinal plants
> were grown, used and stored, but also places where fruits were bottled
> and preserved for use throughout the year. I think it's a great mistake
> to assume from the few surviving menus of mediaeval feasts that the
> upper classes dines exclusively on meat and white bread, especially when
> you look at the methods of preparation of the dishes, and see how many
> had vegetables as a part of their make up, one of the expected
> accompaniments. If you stop looking at menus and look at household
> accounts, you can see that a lot more went into feeding the household
> than meat for the master and pottage for his servant. The records of
> places like Knole, Hampton Court Palace, and some of the great religious
> houses will tell you this. Also take a look at the religious calendar:
> there were days (nay, weeks!) when meat was off limits, and fish had to
> be eaten, and times when BOTH were forbidden.
>
> In addition, and at the other end of society, meat was eaten by the
> peasantry: pigs were kept, and slaughtered and preserved as bacon, for
> example. Pigs could be kept close to the house (they didn't mind the
> smell!), and made a good waste disposal unit that could be eaten later.
> Peasants also had grazing rights for sheep and goats, and while many of
> the ewes were kept for wool and reproduction, the ram lambs would mostly
> be slaughtered for meat. They may not have eaten anything like as much
> meat as the upper and middle classes, but they did get some. More at
> some times of the year, and more in some areas, but pigs, goats, and
> chickens are all kaleyard keepers. Certainly in England it was part of
> a serf's right to have enough time NOT tilling his master's land and
> animals to grow food for his family, and tend his own animals.
> --
> Kate XXXXXX
> Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
> http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
> Click on Kate's Pages and explore!





  #56 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kate Dicey
 
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Default

Clifford Payne wrote:

> You mentioned "The records of places like Knole, Hampton Court Palace, and
> some of the great religious houses will tell you this."
>
> I"m new to this. Could you tell me how I can find the records you cited, or
> similar records?


Google for the historic places, then ring them up and ask them! I do
that all the time... I've talked to various folk at Hampton Court about
Henry's feasts, textile dates and preservation (The Royal School of
Needlework is also there), sewers, and all sorts! The British Library
and The British Museum are also excellent places to look. Ring them up
or email them and ask... It is, after all, what they are there fore -
the preservation and dissemination of knowledge! Some records are only
available to bona fide historians as they are too old to be handled by
all and sundry, but they will soon tell you what research facilities are
available and how to use them.

I have to book a day to go and see the collection of 17th & 18th C
clothing not fit for display in the V&A soon: I need details of how
things were actually sewn together.
>
> cliff, from pgh
>
> "Kate Dicey" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Cookie Cutter wrote:
>>
>>>>The poor
>>>>may have fared better nutritionally by foraging for field greens to
>>>>add to grain than the rich with abundant supplies of meat and little
>>>>else.
>>>
>>>Why would the rich not have anything other than meat? They would
>>>have had a house full of servants who would have kept the house
>>>well-supplied from a kitchen garden.
>>>

>>
>>Hieatt and Butler have a nice theory: there are many warnings in
>>mediaeval and later writings against the dangers of eating salads, and
>>their argument is that were it not a great habit of former times to eat
>>such things, there would be no need to warn against them. There are
>>also plenty of quite elaborate vegetable dishes and dishes containing
>>vegetables and meat or fish in Roman and mediaeval cookery writings,
>>dishes that would have been hard for peasants and poor townsfolk to
>>afford or have the resources and equipment to make (never mind the
>>time!), so they must have been eaten in middle class and merchant
>>households, or in the houses of the rich and nobility. Another good
>>argument in favour of this is that the peasants couldn't write: these
>>recipes came from a stratum of society where writing things down was a
>>well established habit, places such as religious establishments and the
>>houses of great and wealthy.
>>
>>Kitchen gardens and the still room were often the preserve of the lady
>>of the house, and were places where not only herbs and medicinal plants
>>were grown, used and stored, but also places where fruits were bottled
>>and preserved for use throughout the year. I think it's a great mistake
>>to assume from the few surviving menus of mediaeval feasts that the
>>upper classes dines exclusively on meat and white bread, especially when
>>you look at the methods of preparation of the dishes, and see how many
>>had vegetables as a part of their make up, one of the expected
>>accompaniments. If you stop looking at menus and look at household
>>accounts, you can see that a lot more went into feeding the household
>>than meat for the master and pottage for his servant. The records of
>>places like Knole, Hampton Court Palace, and some of the great religious
>>houses will tell you this. Also take a look at the religious calendar:
>>there were days (nay, weeks!) when meat was off limits, and fish had to
>>be eaten, and times when BOTH were forbidden.
>>
>>In addition, and at the other end of society, meat was eaten by the
>>peasantry: pigs were kept, and slaughtered and preserved as bacon, for
>>example. Pigs could be kept close to the house (they didn't mind the
>>smell!), and made a good waste disposal unit that could be eaten later.
>>Peasants also had grazing rights for sheep and goats, and while many of
>>the ewes were kept for wool and reproduction, the ram lambs would mostly
>>be slaughtered for meat. They may not have eaten anything like as much
>>meat as the upper and middle classes, but they did get some. More at
>>some times of the year, and more in some areas, but pigs, goats, and
>>chickens are all kaleyard keepers. Certainly in England it was part of
>>a serf's right to have enough time NOT tilling his master's land and
>>animals to grow food for his family, and tend his own animals.
>>--
>>Kate XXXXXX
>>Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
>>http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
>>Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

>
>
>



--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!
  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
bogus address
 
Posts: n/a
Default


[social organization of eating in feudal households]
>> You mentioned "The records of places like Knole, Hampton Court
>> Palace, and some of the great religious houses will tell you this."
>> I"m new to this. Could you tell me how I can find the records you
>> cited, or similar records?

> Google for the historic places, then ring them up and ask them!


Usually, no. Records like that tend to end up in major libraries (in
Scotland, the National Library and Scottish Records Office both have
lots of them). In the case of Hampton Court, it had a devastating
fire a few years ago (from a senile royal dimwit forgetting a candle)
and interesting records had better *not* have been stored there.

Sometimes great houses come to an arrangement where a major library
does their cataloguing for them. The National Library of Scotland
holds the catalogue for the library of the Kers of Newbattle, so if
you want to know what's in it, the NLS is the place to ask. Getting
hold of the item then means going through the NLS to get the Kers to
send it up with the next batch of requests, which are at three month
intervals.

I don't know of any major private library in Scotland where phoning
up to ask would work directly.

There are national registers of archives that act like a catalogue
of catalogues. Librarians are paid to know about them, janitors at
great houses aren't.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kate Dicey
 
Posts: n/a
Default

bogus address wrote:

> [social organization of eating in feudal households]
>
>>>You mentioned "The records of places like Knole, Hampton Court
>>>Palace, and some of the great religious houses will tell you this."
>>>I"m new to this. Could you tell me how I can find the records you
>>>cited, or similar records?

>>
>>Google for the historic places, then ring them up and ask them!

>
>
> Usually, no. Records like that tend to end up in major libraries (in
> Scotland, the National Library and Scottish Records Office both have
> lots of them). In the case of Hampton Court, it had a devastating
> fire a few years ago (from a senile royal dimwit forgetting a candle)
> and interesting records had better *not* have been stored there.


Most places like that have had someone about who could tell me the next
step - who to ask if they didn't have the stuff I wanted. National
Trust and English Heritage are usually very good about knowing where the
stuff is and who to ask for.
>
> Sometimes great houses come to an arrangement where a major library
> does their cataloguing for them. The National Library of Scotland
> holds the catalogue for the library of the Kers of Newbattle, so if
> you want to know what's in it, the NLS is the place to ask. Getting
> hold of the item then means going through the NLS to get the Kers to
> send it up with the next batch of requests, which are at three month
> intervals.
>
> I don't know of any major private library in Scotland where phoning
> up to ask would work directly.
>
> There are national registers of archives that act like a catalogue
> of catalogues. Librarians are paid to know about them, janitors at
> great houses aren't.


True, but if you ring the contact number of places like Penshurst Place,
Knole, Hever Castle, or wherever you don't get the janitor. You get
someone who can put you in touch with the folk who do know and point you
in the right direction. For example, I rang Hampton Court to ask about
something textile related, and was put through to The Royal School of
Needlework, who said, Ah, that's not us. You need to ring the V&A and
ask for So&So on extension blahblabla. She wasn't in her office, but
DID ring me back with exactly what I needed to know (an obscure point
about raw edge finishes on historic garments).

Start where the history happened and ring 'em and ask: if they don't
know what you want, they'll know a man/woman who does...
>
> ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
> Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.
>



--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!
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Kate Dicey
 
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bogus address wrote:

> [social organization of eating in feudal households]
>
>>>You mentioned "The records of places like Knole, Hampton Court
>>>Palace, and some of the great religious houses will tell you this."
>>>I"m new to this. Could you tell me how I can find the records you
>>>cited, or similar records?

>>
>>Google for the historic places, then ring them up and ask them!

>
>
> Usually, no. Records like that tend to end up in major libraries (in
> Scotland, the National Library and Scottish Records Office both have
> lots of them). In the case of Hampton Court, it had a devastating
> fire a few years ago (from a senile royal dimwit forgetting a candle)
> and interesting records had better *not* have been stored there.


Most places like that have had someone about who could tell me the next
step - who to ask if they didn't have the stuff I wanted. National
Trust and English Heritage are usually very good about knowing where the
stuff is and who to ask for.
>
> Sometimes great houses come to an arrangement where a major library
> does their cataloguing for them. The National Library of Scotland
> holds the catalogue for the library of the Kers of Newbattle, so if
> you want to know what's in it, the NLS is the place to ask. Getting
> hold of the item then means going through the NLS to get the Kers to
> send it up with the next batch of requests, which are at three month
> intervals.
>
> I don't know of any major private library in Scotland where phoning
> up to ask would work directly.
>
> There are national registers of archives that act like a catalogue
> of catalogues. Librarians are paid to know about them, janitors at
> great houses aren't.


True, but if you ring the contact number of places like Penshurst Place,
Knole, Hever Castle, or wherever you don't get the janitor. You get
someone who can put you in touch with the folk who do know and point you
in the right direction. For example, I rang Hampton Court to ask about
something textile related, and was put through to The Royal School of
Needlework, who said, Ah, that's not us. You need to ring the V&A and
ask for So&So on extension blahblabla. She wasn't in her office, but
DID ring me back with exactly what I needed to know (an obscure point
about raw edge finishes on historic garments).

Start where the history happened and ring 'em and ask: if they don't
know what you want, they'll know a man/woman who does...
>
> ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
> Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.
>



--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!
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