Historic (rec.food.historic) Discussing and discovering how food was made and prepared way back when--From ancient times down until (& possibly including or even going slightly beyond) the times when industrial revolution began to change our lives.

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  #46 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 12:41 AM
JE Anderson
 
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Default Balanced diet?


"Christophe Bachmann" wrote in message
...


In ,
Frogleg wrote :

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:39:47 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:

In article , Frogleg
wrote:

The idea of lying in a hammock and plucking fruit from
surrounding trees, supplemented by trapping a few fish or shellfish
sure sounds good. Not many opportunities for same in, say, northern
Europe.

Why? Strawberries, mushrooms, apples, blackberries still grow wild
all over the place. Northern seas are far more fruitful for fish than
tropical ones, and the rivers run with salmon and trout.



Apples don't grow wild all over the place, they only grow wild where they
have been abandoned, any modern fruit must be grafted on a parent stalk to
grow,


Where on earth did you get that tidbit? I know of many own-root apple trees
here in Canada. Grafting is used to increase hardiness in the colder zones
but as far as I know you can still grow a productive apple tree from a
seed....

Janet



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Old 24-02-2004, 07:36 AM
David Friedman
 
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Default Balanced diet?

In article [email protected],
"JE Anderson" wrote:

Apples don't grow wild all over the place, they only grow wild where they
have been abandoned, any modern fruit must be grafted on a parent stalk to
grow,


Where on earth did you get that tidbit? I know of many own-root apple trees
here in Canada. Grafting is used to increase hardiness in the colder zones
but as far as I know you can still grow a productive apple tree from a
seed....


You can grow an apple tree from a seed, but the fruit won't be the same
as the fruit of the parent tree and the odds are that it won't be good
for eating out of hand, although you could get lucky.

Grafting root stock is used to change things such as tree size and
hardiness. Grafting the part that will become the bearing tree is
used--has been since at least Roman times--to make sure your new tree
bears about the same fruit as the old. Almost all apple trees in
production are clones of other apple trees--at least the top part.

And essentially all the apples we eat are the result of millenia of
selective breeding.

--
Remove NOSPAM to email
Also remove .invalid
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  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 09:31 AM
Opinicus
 
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Default Balanced diet?


"David Friedman" wrote

Where on earth did you get that tidbit? I know of many own-root apple

trees
here in Canada. Grafting is used to increase hardiness in the colder

zones
but as far as I know you can still grow a productive apple tree from a
seed....


You can grow an apple tree from a seed, but the fruit won't be the same
as the fruit of the parent tree and the odds are that it won't be good
for eating out of hand, although you could get lucky.


What did Johnny Appleseed spend 49 year of his life doing then?
http://www.applejuice.org/johnnyappleseed.html

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://kanyak.com

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Old 24-02-2004, 09:36 AM
Opinicus
 
Posts: n/a
Default Apples

This site's rather more clear-eyed and hardnosed about John Chapman (aka
Johnny Appleseed) and what he was doing.

http://www.jappleseed.org/history.html

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://kanyak.com


  #50 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 10:55 AM
Frogleg
 
Posts: n/a
Default Apples

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:36:04 +0200, "Opinicus"
wrote:

This site's rather more clear-eyed and hardnosed about John Chapman (aka
Johnny Appleseed) and what he was doing.

http://www.jappleseed.org/history.html


Check out 'The Botany of Desire' (recent best-seller) in your local
library. A quarter of the book is devoted to apple history and
cultivation, as well as considerable material on John Chapman.


  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 11:01 AM
Frogleg
 
Posts: n/a
Default Balanced diet?

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:41:03 GMT, "JE Anderson"
wrote:

but as far as I know you can still grow a productive apple tree from a
seed....


Wrong. That is, you *can* grow a tree from an apple seed, but there is
virtually no chance it will be identical to its parent tree, nor
anything even close.
  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 08:51 PM
Frogleg
 
Posts: n/a
Default Balanced diet?

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:08:09 +0200, "Opinicus"
wrote:

"Frogleg" wrote

Wrong. That is, you *can* grow a tree from an apple seed, but there is
virtually no chance it will be identical to its parent tree, nor
anything even close.


Hmm...

quote
The Van Mons Theory is a case in point. Jean Baptiste Van Mons (1765-1842)
was a physician and professor at Louvain, Belgium. He spent much of his life
in attempting to improve the odds of discovering wonderful new varieties of
fruit, pears in particular. His program was based upon seed selection and
successive plantings of large nurseries consisting of generation after
generation of seedling trees.
/quote

http://www.ciarrai.net/

Look around the middle of the page.


See my original material. No mention of pears there, right? Nor any of
"all fruit trees." Nor any mention in the URL you supply of whether or
not Mr. Van Mons was at all successful in his pear pursuits. Most
modern apple varieties have been happy accidents, rather than the
result of planned seed breeding. Nearly all commercial breeding is the
result of rootstock crosses. Apples just aren't like sweetpeas. Weird,
isn't it?
  #53 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 09:28 PM
David Friedman
 
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Default Balanced diet?

"Opinicus" wrote in message ...
"David Friedman" wrote

Where on earth did you get that tidbit? I know of many own-root apple

trees
here in Canada. Grafting is used to increase hardiness in the colder

zones
but as far as I know you can still grow a productive apple tree from a
seed....


You can grow an apple tree from a seed, but the fruit won't be the same
as the fruit of the parent tree and the odds are that it won't be good
for eating out of hand, although you could get lucky.


What did Johnny Appleseed spend 49 year of his life doing then?
http://www.applejuice.org/johnnyappleseed.html


Planting trees almost all of which were used to produce cider apples,
not apples to be eaten out of hand.

I believe there's a fairly detailed account in _The Botany of Desire_
  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-09-2004, 04:29 PM
Clifford Payne
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You mentioned "The records of places like Knole, Hampton Court Palace, and
some of the great religious houses will tell you this."

I"m new to this. Could you tell me how I can find the records you cited, or
similar records?

cliff, from pgh

"Kate Dicey" wrote in message
...
Cookie Cutter wrote:

The poor
may have fared better nutritionally by foraging for field greens to
add to grain than the rich with abundant supplies of meat and little
else.


Why would the rich not have anything other than meat? They would
have had a house full of servants who would have kept the house
well-supplied from a kitchen garden.

Hieatt and Butler have a nice theory: there are many warnings in
mediaeval and later writings against the dangers of eating salads, and
their argument is that were it not a great habit of former times to eat
such things, there would be no need to warn against them. There are
also plenty of quite elaborate vegetable dishes and dishes containing
vegetables and meat or fish in Roman and mediaeval cookery writings,
dishes that would have been hard for peasants and poor townsfolk to
afford or have the resources and equipment to make (never mind the
time!), so they must have been eaten in middle class and merchant
households, or in the houses of the rich and nobility. Another good
argument in favour of this is that the peasants couldn't write: these
recipes came from a stratum of society where writing things down was a
well established habit, places such as religious establishments and the
houses of great and wealthy.

Kitchen gardens and the still room were often the preserve of the lady
of the house, and were places where not only herbs and medicinal plants
were grown, used and stored, but also places where fruits were bottled
and preserved for use throughout the year. I think it's a great mistake
to assume from the few surviving menus of mediaeval feasts that the
upper classes dines exclusively on meat and white bread, especially when
you look at the methods of preparation of the dishes, and see how many
had vegetables as a part of their make up, one of the expected
accompaniments. If you stop looking at menus and look at household
accounts, you can see that a lot more went into feeding the household
than meat for the master and pottage for his servant. The records of
places like Knole, Hampton Court Palace, and some of the great religious
houses will tell you this. Also take a look at the religious calendar:
there were days (nay, weeks!) when meat was off limits, and fish had to
be eaten, and times when BOTH were forbidden.

In addition, and at the other end of society, meat was eaten by the
peasantry: pigs were kept, and slaughtered and preserved as bacon, for
example. Pigs could be kept close to the house (they didn't mind the
smell!), and made a good waste disposal unit that could be eaten later.
Peasants also had grazing rights for sheep and goats, and while many of
the ewes were kept for wool and reproduction, the ram lambs would mostly
be slaughtered for meat. They may not have eaten anything like as much
meat as the upper and middle classes, but they did get some. More at
some times of the year, and more in some areas, but pigs, goats, and
chickens are all kaleyard keepers. Certainly in England it was part of
a serf's right to have enough time NOT tilling his master's land and
animals to grow food for his family, and tend his own animals.
--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!



  #55 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-09-2004, 04:29 PM
Clifford Payne
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You mentioned "The records of places like Knole, Hampton Court Palace, and
some of the great religious houses will tell you this."

I"m new to this. Could you tell me how I can find the records you cited, or
similar records?

cliff, from pgh

"Kate Dicey" wrote in message
...
Cookie Cutter wrote:

The poor
may have fared better nutritionally by foraging for field greens to
add to grain than the rich with abundant supplies of meat and little
else.


Why would the rich not have anything other than meat? They would
have had a house full of servants who would have kept the house
well-supplied from a kitchen garden.

Hieatt and Butler have a nice theory: there are many warnings in
mediaeval and later writings against the dangers of eating salads, and
their argument is that were it not a great habit of former times to eat
such things, there would be no need to warn against them. There are
also plenty of quite elaborate vegetable dishes and dishes containing
vegetables and meat or fish in Roman and mediaeval cookery writings,
dishes that would have been hard for peasants and poor townsfolk to
afford or have the resources and equipment to make (never mind the
time!), so they must have been eaten in middle class and merchant
households, or in the houses of the rich and nobility. Another good
argument in favour of this is that the peasants couldn't write: these
recipes came from a stratum of society where writing things down was a
well established habit, places such as religious establishments and the
houses of great and wealthy.

Kitchen gardens and the still room were often the preserve of the lady
of the house, and were places where not only herbs and medicinal plants
were grown, used and stored, but also places where fruits were bottled
and preserved for use throughout the year. I think it's a great mistake
to assume from the few surviving menus of mediaeval feasts that the
upper classes dines exclusively on meat and white bread, especially when
you look at the methods of preparation of the dishes, and see how many
had vegetables as a part of their make up, one of the expected
accompaniments. If you stop looking at menus and look at household
accounts, you can see that a lot more went into feeding the household
than meat for the master and pottage for his servant. The records of
places like Knole, Hampton Court Palace, and some of the great religious
houses will tell you this. Also take a look at the religious calendar:
there were days (nay, weeks!) when meat was off limits, and fish had to
be eaten, and times when BOTH were forbidden.

In addition, and at the other end of society, meat was eaten by the
peasantry: pigs were kept, and slaughtered and preserved as bacon, for
example. Pigs could be kept close to the house (they didn't mind the
smell!), and made a good waste disposal unit that could be eaten later.
Peasants also had grazing rights for sheep and goats, and while many of
the ewes were kept for wool and reproduction, the ram lambs would mostly
be slaughtered for meat. They may not have eaten anything like as much
meat as the upper and middle classes, but they did get some. More at
some times of the year, and more in some areas, but pigs, goats, and
chickens are all kaleyard keepers. Certainly in England it was part of
a serf's right to have enough time NOT tilling his master's land and
animals to grow food for his family, and tend his own animals.
--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!





  #56 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-09-2004, 06:35 PM
Kate Dicey
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Clifford Payne wrote:

You mentioned "The records of places like Knole, Hampton Court Palace, and
some of the great religious houses will tell you this."

I"m new to this. Could you tell me how I can find the records you cited, or
similar records?


Google for the historic places, then ring them up and ask them! I do
that all the time... I've talked to various folk at Hampton Court about
Henry's feasts, textile dates and preservation (The Royal School of
Needlework is also there), sewers, and all sorts! The British Library
and The British Museum are also excellent places to look. Ring them up
or email them and ask... It is, after all, what they are there fore -
the preservation and dissemination of knowledge! Some records are only
available to bona fide historians as they are too old to be handled by
all and sundry, but they will soon tell you what research facilities are
available and how to use them.

I have to book a day to go and see the collection of 17th & 18th C
clothing not fit for display in the V&A soon: I need details of how
things were actually sewn together.

cliff, from pgh

"Kate Dicey" wrote in message
...

Cookie Cutter wrote:

The poor
may have fared better nutritionally by foraging for field greens to
add to grain than the rich with abundant supplies of meat and little
else.

Why would the rich not have anything other than meat? They would
have had a house full of servants who would have kept the house
well-supplied from a kitchen garden.


Hieatt and Butler have a nice theory: there are many warnings in
mediaeval and later writings against the dangers of eating salads, and
their argument is that were it not a great habit of former times to eat
such things, there would be no need to warn against them. There are
also plenty of quite elaborate vegetable dishes and dishes containing
vegetables and meat or fish in Roman and mediaeval cookery writings,
dishes that would have been hard for peasants and poor townsfolk to
afford or have the resources and equipment to make (never mind the
time!), so they must have been eaten in middle class and merchant
households, or in the houses of the rich and nobility. Another good
argument in favour of this is that the peasants couldn't write: these
recipes came from a stratum of society where writing things down was a
well established habit, places such as religious establishments and the
houses of great and wealthy.

Kitchen gardens and the still room were often the preserve of the lady
of the house, and were places where not only herbs and medicinal plants
were grown, used and stored, but also places where fruits were bottled
and preserved for use throughout the year. I think it's a great mistake
to assume from the few surviving menus of mediaeval feasts that the
upper classes dines exclusively on meat and white bread, especially when
you look at the methods of preparation of the dishes, and see how many
had vegetables as a part of their make up, one of the expected
accompaniments. If you stop looking at menus and look at household
accounts, you can see that a lot more went into feeding the household
than meat for the master and pottage for his servant. The records of
places like Knole, Hampton Court Palace, and some of the great religious
houses will tell you this. Also take a look at the religious calendar:
there were days (nay, weeks!) when meat was off limits, and fish had to
be eaten, and times when BOTH were forbidden.

In addition, and at the other end of society, meat was eaten by the
peasantry: pigs were kept, and slaughtered and preserved as bacon, for
example. Pigs could be kept close to the house (they didn't mind the
smell!), and made a good waste disposal unit that could be eaten later.
Peasants also had grazing rights for sheep and goats, and while many of
the ewes were kept for wool and reproduction, the ram lambs would mostly
be slaughtered for meat. They may not have eaten anything like as much
meat as the upper and middle classes, but they did get some. More at
some times of the year, and more in some areas, but pigs, goats, and
chickens are all kaleyard keepers. Certainly in England it was part of
a serf's right to have enough time NOT tilling his master's land and
animals to grow food for his family, and tend his own animals.
--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!






--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!
  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 30-09-2004, 02:20 AM
bogus address
 
Posts: n/a
Default


[social organization of eating in feudal households]
You mentioned "The records of places like Knole, Hampton Court
Palace, and some of the great religious houses will tell you this."
I"m new to this. Could you tell me how I can find the records you
cited, or similar records?

Google for the historic places, then ring them up and ask them!


Usually, no. Records like that tend to end up in major libraries (in
Scotland, the National Library and Scottish Records Office both have
lots of them). In the case of Hampton Court, it had a devastating
fire a few years ago (from a senile royal dimwit forgetting a candle)
and interesting records had better *not* have been stored there.

Sometimes great houses come to an arrangement where a major library
does their cataloguing for them. The National Library of Scotland
holds the catalogue for the library of the Kers of Newbattle, so if
you want to know what's in it, the NLS is the place to ask. Getting
hold of the item then means going through the NLS to get the Kers to
send it up with the next batch of requests, which are at three month
intervals.

I don't know of any major private library in Scotland where phoning
up to ask would work directly.

There are national registers of archives that act like a catalogue
of catalogues. Librarians are paid to know about them, janitors at
great houses aren't.

======== Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce ========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 30-09-2004, 01:55 PM
Kate Dicey
 
Posts: n/a
Default

bogus address wrote:

[social organization of eating in feudal households]

You mentioned "The records of places like Knole, Hampton Court
Palace, and some of the great religious houses will tell you this."
I"m new to this. Could you tell me how I can find the records you
cited, or similar records?


Google for the historic places, then ring them up and ask them!



Usually, no. Records like that tend to end up in major libraries (in
Scotland, the National Library and Scottish Records Office both have
lots of them). In the case of Hampton Court, it had a devastating
fire a few years ago (from a senile royal dimwit forgetting a candle)
and interesting records had better *not* have been stored there.


Most places like that have had someone about who could tell me the next
step - who to ask if they didn't have the stuff I wanted. National
Trust and English Heritage are usually very good about knowing where the
stuff is and who to ask for.

Sometimes great houses come to an arrangement where a major library
does their cataloguing for them. The National Library of Scotland
holds the catalogue for the library of the Kers of Newbattle, so if
you want to know what's in it, the NLS is the place to ask. Getting
hold of the item then means going through the NLS to get the Kers to
send it up with the next batch of requests, which are at three month
intervals.

I don't know of any major private library in Scotland where phoning
up to ask would work directly.

There are national registers of archives that act like a catalogue
of catalogues. Librarians are paid to know about them, janitors at
great houses aren't.


True, but if you ring the contact number of places like Penshurst Place,
Knole, Hever Castle, or wherever you don't get the janitor. You get
someone who can put you in touch with the folk who do know and point you
in the right direction. For example, I rang Hampton Court to ask about
something textile related, and was put through to The Royal School of
Needlework, who said, Ah, that's not us. You need to ring the V&A and
ask for So&So on extension blahblabla. She wasn't in her office, but
DID ring me back with exactly what I needed to know (an obscure point
about raw edge finishes on historic garments).

Start where the history happened and ring 'em and ask: if they don't
know what you want, they'll know a man/woman who does...

======== Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce ========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.



--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!
  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 30-09-2004, 01:55 PM
Kate Dicey
 
Posts: n/a
Default

bogus address wrote:

[social organization of eating in feudal households]

You mentioned "The records of places like Knole, Hampton Court
Palace, and some of the great religious houses will tell you this."
I"m new to this. Could you tell me how I can find the records you
cited, or similar records?


Google for the historic places, then ring them up and ask them!



Usually, no. Records like that tend to end up in major libraries (in
Scotland, the National Library and Scottish Records Office both have
lots of them). In the case of Hampton Court, it had a devastating
fire a few years ago (from a senile royal dimwit forgetting a candle)
and interesting records had better *not* have been stored there.


Most places like that have had someone about who could tell me the next
step - who to ask if they didn't have the stuff I wanted. National
Trust and English Heritage are usually very good about knowing where the
stuff is and who to ask for.

Sometimes great houses come to an arrangement where a major library
does their cataloguing for them. The National Library of Scotland
holds the catalogue for the library of the Kers of Newbattle, so if
you want to know what's in it, the NLS is the place to ask. Getting
hold of the item then means going through the NLS to get the Kers to
send it up with the next batch of requests, which are at three month
intervals.

I don't know of any major private library in Scotland where phoning
up to ask would work directly.

There are national registers of archives that act like a catalogue
of catalogues. Librarians are paid to know about them, janitors at
great houses aren't.


True, but if you ring the contact number of places like Penshurst Place,
Knole, Hever Castle, or wherever you don't get the janitor. You get
someone who can put you in touch with the folk who do know and point you
in the right direction. For example, I rang Hampton Court to ask about
something textile related, and was put through to The Royal School of
Needlework, who said, Ah, that's not us. You need to ring the V&A and
ask for So&So on extension blahblabla. She wasn't in her office, but
DID ring me back with exactly what I needed to know (an obscure point
about raw edge finishes on historic garments).

Start where the history happened and ring 'em and ask: if they don't
know what you want, they'll know a man/woman who does...

======== Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce ========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.



--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!


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