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ASmith1946 05-11-2003 10:46 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
I've ended up with the responsibility to write an article on the history of
counterculture food. As this is not my strength, I thought I'd ramble a bit and
ask for your comments-- positive and negative.

"Counterculture food" includes a wide group of individuals and groups opposed
to corporate agriculture, corporate manufacturing of food, perceived government
protection and subsidy of corporate food producers, and the globalization of
food in general.

Counterculture food groups have many divergent interests, but many cluster
around the following overlapping issue areas:

1. environmental and sustainability issues (organic gardening; family farm vs
factory farm, etc.);

2. health and nutrition issues (chemical additives, pesticides; junk food, fast
foods, obesity, etc.);

3. legal/political issues (labeling, approval processes, political power of
food companies, etc.);

4. ethical/moral issues (animal rights, vegetarianism, religion, humanitarian
matters, hunger and malnutrition, food advertising/promotion, etc.);

5. science/technology issues (GMOs, cloning, etc.);

6. globalization issues (NAFTA, WTO, EU, etc.).

What obvious issue areas have I left out?

Andy Smith

bogus address 06-11-2003 01:31 AM

History of Counterculture Food
 


> Counterculture food groups have many divergent interests, but many
> cluster around the following overlapping issue areas:
>
> 1. environmental and sustainability issues
> 2. health and nutrition issues
> 3. legal/political issues
> 4. ethical/moral issues
> 5. science/technology issues
> 6. globalization issues
> What obvious issue areas have I left out?


Religious ones. The whole Western "alternative" lifestyle-politics
movement, and its nutritional wing that started as "food reform",
came out of the importation of Hindu ideas into Europe in the late
19th century, in Germany and Austria in particular. James Webb's
"The Occult Establishment" will give you an idea of the cultural
matrix, though it says relatively little about food per se. This
stuff is still very much alive in certain subcultures, the Rudolf
Steiner cult in particular ("biodynamic agriculture") and, over here,
the Findhorn crowd (invoking Indian tutelary deities to boost the
growth of your vegetables).

The issues you list developed historically as secular rationales for
practices that started out motivated by pure blind religious dogma.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.


Ann Sharp 06-11-2003 05:18 AM

History of Counterculture Food
 

"ASmith1946"
>
> What obvious issue areas have I left out?


Union v. management? (you may have it in mind for one of your headings, but
it isn't specifically mentioned.)



Frogleg 06-11-2003 01:27 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
On 05 Nov 2003 21:46:25 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:

>What obvious issue areas have I left out?


Economics. Both cost of production and the final cost of food. Poor
people don't have the luxury of choosing free-range, organic,
no-additive, stone-ground, home-grown, socially-responsible and
environmentally-friendly foods.

Bryan J. Maloney 07-11-2003 02:25 AM

History of Counterculture Food
 
Frogleg > nattered on
m:

> On 05 Nov 2003 21:46:25 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
>
>>What obvious issue areas have I left out?

>
> Economics. Both cost of production and the final cost of food. Poor
> people don't have the luxury of choosing free-range, organic,
> no-additive, stone-ground, home-grown, socially-responsible and
> environmentally-friendly foods.
>


Well, since poor people are inherently inferior, anyway, the socially
aware and progressive can dismiss them as mere beasts.

jmarvell 08-11-2003 02:42 AM

History of Counterculture Food
 
in article , bogus address at
wrote on 6/11/03 11:01 AM:

>
>
>> Counterculture food groups have many divergent interests, but many
>> cluster around the following overlapping issue areas:
>>
>> 1. environmental and sustainability issues
>> 2. health and nutrition issues
>> 3. legal/political issues
>> 4. ethical/moral issues
>> 5. science/technology issues
>> 6. globalization issues
>> What obvious issue areas have I left out?

>
> Religious ones. The whole Western "alternative" lifestyle-politics
> movement, and its nutritional wing that started as "food reform",
> came out of the importation of Hindu ideas into Europe in the late
> 19th century, in Germany and Austria in particular. James Webb's
> "The Occult Establishment" will give you an idea of the cultural
> matrix, though it says relatively little about food per se. This
> stuff is still very much alive in certain subcultures, the Rudolf
> Steiner cult in particular ("biodynamic agriculture") and, over here,
> the Findhorn crowd (invoking Indian tutelary deities to boost the
> growth of your vegetables).
>
> The issues you list developed historically as secular rationales for
> practices that started out motivated by pure blind religious dogma.
>
> ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
> Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.
>

Sure, how about those Christians eating pork? I know Jews who like Bacon so
I bet there are Moslems who do to and maybe some of either Abrahamic sect
who actively promote it. There might even be Hindus who like a good rare
fillet steak.

I'd also like to add to the economic side. What about the spice trades? What
about Marco Polo? What about South America? Economics may judge what the
poor eat but the chance for merchants to make cash by introducing foreign
ingredients to a domestic market would have influenced dramatic shifts in
some cultures. Think about the introduction of the tomato to italian
cuisine. I mean, just how did one ingredient alter a cuisine and how
quickly?

J


bogus address 10-11-2003 10:28 AM

History of Counterculture Food
 

>>> Counterculture food groups have many divergent interests, but many
>>> cluster around the following overlapping issue areas: [...]
>>> What obvious issue areas have I left out?

>> Religious ones. The whole Western "alternative" lifestyle-politics
>> movement, and its nutritional wing that started as "food reform",
>> came out of the importation of Hindu ideas into Europe in the late
>> 19th century, in Germany and Austria in particular.

> Sure, how about those Christians eating pork? I know Jews who like
> Bacon so I bet there are Moslems who do to and maybe some of either
> Abrahamic sect who actively promote it. There might even be Hindus
> who like a good rare fillet steak.


Andy was asking about a specific cultural phenomenon that took off
in the twentieth century, not food taboo violations in general. My
mum used to make bacon sandwiches for the kids next door since they
came from a Seventh Day Adventist family and would never otherwise
have tried them, but a counterculture figure she was not.

The things this newsgroup makes you dream about. I came up with a
recipe in my sleep: take one smallish Bible, lard it with rashers
of bacon, wrap in puff pastry and bake in a hot oven. Pity I was
too late to get that into the Futurist Cookbook.


> I'd also like to add to the economic side. What about the spice
> trades? What about Marco Polo? What about South America? Economics
> may judge what the poor eat but the chance for merchants to make
> cash by introducing foreign ingredients to a domestic market would
> have influenced dramatic shifts in some cultures.


For this particular shift, the soya business is the most relevant one
(though they didn't get into the act until after WW2 and started in
the US, whereas countercultural food started decades earlier in Europe).

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.


Morgan Sheridan 11-11-2003 06:50 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
<delurking>

just a though in passing... under the categories of
legal/political/globalizaton issues or ethical/moral issues, I would think
food rationing/distribution would develop as a sub-topic.

Morgan S.


"ASmith1946" > wrote in message
...
> I've ended up with the responsibility to write an article on the history

of
> counterculture food. As this is not my strength, I thought I'd ramble a

bit and
> ask for your comments-- positive and negative.
>
> "Counterculture food" includes a wide group of individuals and groups

opposed
> to corporate agriculture, corporate manufacturing of food, perceived

government
> protection and subsidy of corporate food producers, and the globalization

of
> food in general.
>
> Counterculture food groups have many divergent interests, but many cluster
> around the following overlapping issue areas:
>
> 1. environmental and sustainability issues (organic gardening; family farm

vs
> factory farm, etc.);
>
> 2. health and nutrition issues (chemical additives, pesticides; junk food,

fast
> foods, obesity, etc.);
>
> 3. legal/political issues (labeling, approval processes, political power

of
> food companies, etc.);
>
> 4. ethical/moral issues (animal rights, vegetarianism, religion,

humanitarian
> matters, hunger and malnutrition, food advertising/promotion, etc.);
>
> 5. science/technology issues (GMOs, cloning, etc.);
>
> 6. globalization issues (NAFTA, WTO, EU, etc.).
>
> What obvious issue areas have I left out?
>
> Andy Smith




Bob Pastorio 12-11-2003 07:13 AM

History of Counterculture Food
 
Morgan Sheridan wrote:

> <delurking>
>
> just a though in passing... under the categories of
> legal/political/globalizaton issues or ethical/moral issues, I would think
> food rationing/distribution would develop as a sub-topic.
>
> Morgan S.
>
>
> "ASmith1946" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I've ended up with the responsibility to write an article on the history
>>of counterculture food. As this is not my strength, I thought I'd ramble a
>>bit and ask for your comments-- positive and negative.
>>
>>"Counterculture food" includes a wide group of individuals and groups
>>opposed to corporate agriculture, corporate manufacturing of food, perceived
>>government protection and subsidy of corporate food producers, and the globalization
>>of food in general.


Andy, I'm afraid I can't get the 60's out of my head when considering
the whole notion of counterculture. I and many others ate a lot of
stupid food and bought a lot of stupid toys and utensils because it
was a kind of trickle-down reaction to genuine issues. We mostly
rejected the past (as does every generation in its own fashion)
because it was the past And we were so much smarter than anybody who
had ever lived before.

We cooked nasty-tasting things in primitive cooking equipment because
it was cool rather than because we were making many statements of
protest. Way up at the rarefied top of the philosophical tree there
may well have been great thinkers pondering universal questions and
conundrums. By the time it filtered down to us, we were eating things
because we had the munchies, not because we were terribly worried
about the plight of farmers in Uganda. The shock of The Great Folk
Music Catastrophe in the late 50's set the stage for everything to be
taken over by amateurs. So we wove bad cloth, threw clumsy pots,
carved embarrassing sculptures, smoked junk weed, embroidered mad LSD
dreams on our shirts and generally misbehaved thinking it was actually
a valid rebellion against, um, something.

We ate Alice B. Toklas brownies and blurted out "profound"
observations about the world and we sang folk songs we had learned in
New York where there are no folks.

I think there's a great deal of plain and simple fashion and fad in
counterculture behavior. Maybe a good and important idea way back at
the beginning, but by the time it hit the streets, it was
questionable, at best. Like Einstein strolling down Paul Robeson Place
in Princeton with his fly open.

I know. This is a good example of the logical flaw of extrapolating
from the particular to the universal.

>>Counterculture food groups have many divergent interests, but many cluster
>>around the following overlapping issue areas:
>>
>>1. environmental and sustainability issues (organic gardening; family farm
>>vs factory farm, etc.);
>>
>>2. health and nutrition issues (chemical additives, pesticides; junk food,
>>fast foods, obesity, etc.);
>>
>>3. legal/political issues (labeling, approval processes, political power
>>of food companies, etc.);
>>
>>4. ethical/moral issues (animal rights, vegetarianism, religion,
>>humanitarian matters, hunger and malnutrition, food advertising/promotion, etc.);
>>
>>5. science/technology issues (GMOs, cloning, etc.);
>>
>>6. globalization issues (NAFTA, WTO, EU, etc.).
>>
>>What obvious issue areas have I left out?


To me, this feels like the current picture rather than an overview of
the various movements that ran counter to the prevailing culture's
notions about food and health, etc. Think of the Kelloggs, Graham,
Leibig. Later, McFadden et al. And more recently Euell Gibbons and the
like. Might even tuck Robert Atkins in there. An ungenerous look calls
them faddists. But they were also countercultural and, for better or
worse, helped to shape the futures of the mainstream.

Pastorio


>>
>>Andy Smith



Frogleg 12-11-2003 12:25 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
>"ASmith1946" > wrote

>> Counterculture food groups have many divergent interests, but many cluster
>> around the following overlapping issue areas:


<snip>

I agree with Bob that "counterculture" needs to be defined,
particularly with regard to time frame. I remember a vegetarian
cookbook published by high school students in the late 60s that had
nothing to do with today's flavors of vegetarianism, but was part of a
"boycott meat" protest when prices rose abruptly. As 'The Wild One'
had it: "What are you rebelling against, Johnny?" "Whadaya got?"

Also, with Bob, one might say that virtually *any* diet or food fad is
counter to the prevailing norm. You might want to take a look at
"Perfection Salad: Women and Cooking at the Turn of the Century"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...67036?v=glance

As I recall, it covers more than that restricted time period.

You've picked a pretty wide-ranging subject. :-)

ASmith1946 12-11-2003 12:36 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
Thanks Bob.

Counterculture food started in America during the late sixties and early
seventies. At its roots were the work of luminaries, such as Adelle Davis
(Let's Eat Right to Keep Fit), J. I. Rodale (Organic Gardening and Farming),
James S. Turner (The Chemical Feasts), and Francis Lappe (Diet for a Small
Planet). It's core rejected corporate farming and the corporate food
distribution system with the intent of replacing them with communes and food
co-ops. (Some of America's most famous restaurants emerged from this ferment,
including Alice Water's Chez Panisse in Berkeley, California, and Mollie
Katzen's Moosewood in Ithaca, New York.) There certainly were fads, but this
image of "kooks and nuts" was also intentionally promoted by corporate media to
discredit the movement.

The counterculture food movement disappeared in the late 1970s and early 1980s.
It was partly co-opted by businesses (who defined virtually all processed as
"natural," "organic," "healthful," "fat free," etc.) and partly mutated into
health food stores, macrobiotic diets, popular restaurants, support for the
family farm (such as Community Supported Agriculture), green markets, and
concern for food and hunger issues. Today, store-bought yoghurt, herbal teas,
sprouts and soy products are remnants of this movement.

During the 1990s, new concerns emerged to recreate the counterculture food
movement: Globalization and genetic engineering. This movement rejects
corporate farming and the corporate food distribution system. It wants to
substitute backyard gardens, local family farms and food co-ops, and promote
laws against genetic engineering, etc.

How does this sound?

Andy Smith

>
>Andy, I'm afraid I can't get the 60's out of my head when considering
>the whole notion of counterculture. I and many others ate a lot of
>stupid food and bought a lot of stupid toys and utensils because it
>was a kind of trickle-down reaction to genuine issues. We mostly
>rejected the past (as does every generation in its own fashion)
>because it was the past And we were so much smarter than anybody who
>had ever lived before.
>
>We cooked nasty-tasting things in primitive cooking equipment because
>it was cool rather than because we were making many statements of
>protest. Way up at the rarefied top of the philosophical tree there
>may well have been great thinkers pondering universal questions and
>conundrums. By the time it filtered down to us, we were eating things
>because we had the munchies, not because we were terribly worried
>about the plight of farmers in Uganda. The shock of The Great Folk
>Music Catastrophe in the late 50's set the stage for everything to be
>taken over by amateurs. So we wove bad cloth, threw clumsy pots,
>carved embarrassing sculptures, smoked junk weed, embroidered mad LSD
>dreams on our shirts and generally misbehaved thinking it was actually
>a valid rebellion against, um, something.
>
>We ate Alice B. Toklas brownies and blurted out "profound"
>observations about the world and we sang folk songs we had learned in
>New York where there are no folks.
>
>I think there's a great deal of plain and simple fashion and fad in
>counterculture behavior. Maybe a good and important idea way back at
>the beginning, but by the time it hit the streets, it was
>questionable, at best. Like Einstein strolling down Paul Robeson Place
>in Princeton with his fly open.
>
>I know. This is a good example of the logical flaw of extrapolating
>from the particular to the universal.
>
>>>Counterculture food groups have many divergent interests, but many cluster
>>>around the following overlapping issue areas:
>>>
>>>1. environmental and sustainability issues (organic gardening; family farm
>>>vs factory farm, etc.);
>>>
>>>2. health and nutrition issues (chemical additives, pesticides; junk food,
>>>fast foods, obesity, etc.);
>>>
>>>3. legal/political issues (labeling, approval processes, political power
>>>of food companies, etc.);
>>>
>>>4. ethical/moral issues (animal rights, vegetarianism, religion,
>>>humanitarian matters, hunger and malnutrition, food advertising/promotion,

>etc.);
>>>
>>>5. science/technology issues (GMOs, cloning, etc.);
>>>
>>>6. globalization issues (NAFTA, WTO, EU, etc.).
>>>
>>>What obvious issue areas have I left out?

>
>To me, this feels like the current picture rather than an overview of
>the various movements that ran counter to the prevailing culture's
>notions about food and health, etc. Think of the Kelloggs, Graham,
>Leibig. Later, McFadden et al. And more recently Euell Gibbons and the
>like. Might even tuck Robert Atkins in there. An ungenerous look calls
>them faddists. But they were also countercultural and, for better or
>worse, helped to shape the futures of the mainstream.
>
>Pastorio
>
>
>>>
>>>Andy Smith

>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Bryan J. Maloney 12-11-2003 02:06 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
(ASmith1946) nattered on
:

> This movement
> rejects corporate farming and the corporate food distribution system.
> It wants to substitute backyard gardens, local family farms and food
> co-ops, and promote laws against genetic engineering, etc.


Ya gotta love those ivory-tower suburban elitists.

Cameron Laird 12-11-2003 05:15 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
In article >,
bogus address > wrote:

Bob Pastorio 13-11-2003 05:41 AM

History of Counterculture Food
 
ASmith1946 wrote:

> Thanks Bob.
>
> Counterculture food started in America during the late sixties and early
> seventies. At its roots were the work of luminaries, such as Adelle Davis
> (Let's Eat Right to Keep Fit), J. I. Rodale (Organic Gardening and Farming),
> James S. Turner (The Chemical Feasts), and Francis Lappe (Diet for a Small
> Planet). It's core rejected corporate farming and the corporate food
> distribution system with the intent of replacing them with communes and food
> co-ops. (Some of America's most famous restaurants emerged from this ferment,
> including Alice Water's Chez Panisse in Berkeley, California, and Mollie
> Katzen's Moosewood in Ithaca, New York.) There certainly were fads, but this
> image of "kooks and nuts" was also intentionally promoted by corporate media to
> discredit the movement.


There was a wonderfully hilarious restaurant in New Brunswick, New
Jersey called (get ready!) Manna Fest Station in the late 60's and
early 70's. Running it were deeply uninformed but idealistic communard
hippie types who wanted everybody to eat brown rice and strange Asian
dishes or South American concoctions that smelled like bird cages. My
first wife worked there after we came apart and regaled me with tales
of nasty-sounding dishes of whole grains and unusual fruits and
veggies that they had no idea what to do with but they cooked into
peculiar dishes anyway. They were vegetarians because "It was wrong to
eat things with faces." Except my ex who happily plunged in at my
parents' house for the holidays and ate things, faces notwithstanding

I asked the leader of the pack if the place was making money. He
looked startled. "I don't know," he said. I asked how long he could
support it if it didn't make money. He really hadn't considered it.

I asked why they served what they did and he spent a lot of time and
way too many words explaining that these foods were more ecologically
friendly and more "sustainable." He didn't really know what that
meant, obviously.

The real impetus behind the restaurant and the lifestyle that
accompanied it was a rejection of what their parents had done. It
wasn't so much they were moving towards something as that they were
moving away from something. There was no real intellectual push. No
real philosophical impulsion.

> The counterculture food movement disappeared in the late 1970s and early 1980s.
> It was partly co-opted by businesses (who defined virtually all processed as
> "natural," "organic," "healthful," "fat free," etc.) and partly mutated into
> health food stores, macrobiotic diets, popular restaurants, support for the
> family farm (such as Community Supported Agriculture), green markets, and
> concern for food and hunger issues. Today, store-bought yoghurt, herbal teas,
> sprouts and soy products are remnants of this movement.


Some significant other components still survive and are actually
growing. Organic farming is a wider movement than it was just 10 years
ago. Artisanal production of breads, cheeses, beers, liquors and other
foods is increasing. These people are very often the same ones who
tried to walk away from their roots. Now they've decided to go back
further towards their roots when food was grown and prepared more
simply and, according to them, more wholesomely. You can see this
phenomenon in farmers' markets across the country.

> During the 1990s, new concerns emerged to recreate the counterculture food
> movement: Globalization and genetic engineering. This movement rejects
> corporate farming and the corporate food distribution system. It wants to
> substitute backyard gardens, local family farms and food co-ops, and promote
> laws against genetic engineering, etc.
>
> How does this sound?


I think it too rarefied a vision. An awful lot of the whole
countercultural excitement was just about having fun. It was fun to
play with woks. It was fun to eat raw fish. Joints the size of your
thumb were fun. It was fun to wear gauzy shirts from India. Later, it
was justified on ethical or moral or political grounds. Much of the
whole era was about having a lark.

Look at the Spring 2003 issue of Gastronomica for an article called
"The Political Palate" subtitled "Reading Commune Cookbooks" for a
different viewpoint than mine.

Pastorio

> Andy Smith
>
>
>>Andy, I'm afraid I can't get the 60's out of my head when considering
>>the whole notion of counterculture. I and many others ate a lot of
>>stupid food and bought a lot of stupid toys and utensils because it
>>was a kind of trickle-down reaction to genuine issues. We mostly
>>rejected the past (as does every generation in its own fashion)
>>because it was the past And we were so much smarter than anybody who
>>had ever lived before.
>>
>>We cooked nasty-tasting things in primitive cooking equipment because
>>it was cool rather than because we were making many statements of
>>protest. Way up at the rarefied top of the philosophical tree there
>>may well have been great thinkers pondering universal questions and
>>conundrums. By the time it filtered down to us, we were eating things
>>because we had the munchies, not because we were terribly worried
>>about the plight of farmers in Uganda. The shock of The Great Folk
>>Music Catastrophe in the late 50's set the stage for everything to be
>>taken over by amateurs. So we wove bad cloth, threw clumsy pots,
>>carved embarrassing sculptures, smoked junk weed, embroidered mad LSD
>>dreams on our shirts and generally misbehaved thinking it was actually
>>a valid rebellion against, um, something.
>>
>>We ate Alice B. Toklas brownies and blurted out "profound"
>>observations about the world and we sang folk songs we had learned in
>>New York where there are no folks.
>>
>>I think there's a great deal of plain and simple fashion and fad in
>>counterculture behavior. Maybe a good and important idea way back at
>>the beginning, but by the time it hit the streets, it was
>>questionable, at best. Like Einstein strolling down Paul Robeson Place
>>in Princeton with his fly open.
>>
>>I know. This is a good example of the logical flaw of extrapolating

>
>>from the particular to the universal.

>
>>>>Counterculture food groups have many divergent interests, but many cluster
>>>>around the following overlapping issue areas:
>>>>
>>>>1. environmental and sustainability issues (organic gardening; family farm
>>>>vs factory farm, etc.);
>>>>
>>>>2. health and nutrition issues (chemical additives, pesticides; junk food,
>>>>fast foods, obesity, etc.);
>>>>
>>>>3. legal/political issues (labeling, approval processes, political power
>>>>of food companies, etc.);
>>>>
>>>>4. ethical/moral issues (animal rights, vegetarianism, religion,
>>>>humanitarian matters, hunger and malnutrition, food advertising/promotion,

>>
>>etc.);
>>
>>>>5. science/technology issues (GMOs, cloning, etc.);
>>>>
>>>>6. globalization issues (NAFTA, WTO, EU, etc.).
>>>>
>>>>What obvious issue areas have I left out?

>>
>>To me, this feels like the current picture rather than an overview of
>>the various movements that ran counter to the prevailing culture's
>>notions about food and health, etc. Think of the Kelloggs, Graham,
>>Leibig. Later, McFadden et al. And more recently Euell Gibbons and the
>>like. Might even tuck Robert Atkins in there. An ungenerous look calls
>>them faddists. But they were also countercultural and, for better or
>>worse, helped to shape the futures of the mainstream.
>>
>>Pastorio
>>
>>>>Andy Smith



Frogleg 13-11-2003 01:34 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
On 12 Nov 2003 11:36:09 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:

>Counterculture food started in America during the late sixties and early
>seventies.


I don't think so. Note Pastorio's mention of Kellogg and Graham, who
were certainly "counterculture" in America in the 19th century. Here's
an interesting reference:

http://www.foodreference.com/html/artgranola.html

>The counterculture food movement disappeared in the late 1970s and early 1980s.


Again, this depends on your definitions. You mention that many 60s
"counterculture" values later became absorbed into the mainstream. And
that current movements having to do with food have shifted to
distribution, corporate farming, food and animal additives, and GM
concerns. Concerns may change or become part of the norm, but
counterculture doesn't disappear; it mutates.

It seems to me there have been food-related "counterculture" movements
probably since the first cave dweller stuck a raw haunch of antelope
on the fire and tried to convince its family that cooked was good.

That is, counterculture food movements aren't a 1960s (or 1860s)
phenomenon, but an continuum of changing positions with regard to
nutrition, health, economics, religion, agriculture, and many of the
other factors you mention.

ASmith1946 14-11-2003 06:05 AM

History of Counterculture Food
 
This may be just a semantic difference. There were certainly food reform
efforts in America before the 1960s and to some extent every reform effort is
countercultural by definition.

But the term "counterculture" was raised to specifically describe a broad
phenomena that began in the '60. It wasn't really a food reform effort, at
least it wasn't like Graham's or Kellogg's previous efforts. It was a political
movement -- with the anti-Vietnam War being the driving force. It certainly had
social and economic dimensions-- the attempt to create a better world through
communal living and the destruction (or replacement) of the capitalist economic
system. Food was just a side order.

As soon as Vietnam War ended, so did the counterculture movement, although
there are indeed remnants still around today.

Recent food fights-- re GMOs and globalization-- do have some similar
characteristcs as did the efforts during the '60s and '70s, which is why I
added them to my original list.

However, I'm tempted now, due to Bob's comments, to just define counterculture
food as what happened during the '60s and 70s.

Many, many thanks to all who have commented.

Andy Smith

>
>>Counterculture food started in America during the late sixties and early
>>seventies.

>
>I don't think so. Note Pastorio's mention of Kellogg and Graham, who
>were certainly "counterculture" in America in the 19th century. Here's
>an interesting reference:
>





bogus address 14-11-2003 10:53 AM

History of Counterculture Food
 

> This may be just a semantic difference. There were certainly food
> reform efforts in America before the 1960s and to some extent
> every reform effort is countercultural by definition.
> But the term "counterculture" was raised to specifically describe
> a broad phenomena that began in the '60. It wasn't really a food
> reform effort, at least it wasn't like Graham's or Kellogg's previous
> efforts. It was a political movement -- with the anti-Vietnam War
> being the driving force. It certainly had social and economic
> dimensions-- the attempt to create a better world through communal
> living and the destruction (or replacement) of the capitalist economic
> system. Food was just a side order.
> As soon as Vietnam War ended, so did the counterculture movement,
> although there are indeed remnants still around today.


I think you're isolating something that wasn't seen as a distinct
phenomenon at the time, or (in its food-related aspects) as very
different from what came before. Nor I am I convinced Vietnam had
much to do with it.

I arrived in the US in 1974, from Australia and NZ, and stayed two
years, moving on to the UK. It struck me immediately that there
was much *less* of an active counterculture in the US than I was
used to, and what there was was mostly driven by black activism
rather than anything to do with the war. The communal values that
were being promoted as radical alternatives either came from Afro-
American culture or were perceived as doing so. (And insofar as the
US influenced radical movements in the rest of the developed world,
it was again black politics, with its agenda for social change, that
had more effect than the more limited politicized pacifism of the
white anti-war movement). Others (like the collective-food-buying
efforts that operated fitfully in all four countries I lived in round
then) seemed to come out of forms of community organization moulded
during prolonged strikes, dating back a few decades.

I left shortly after the end of the Vietnam war, and in the UK the
politicized-eating scene took off to a much greater extent after I
got there - in the late 70s and into the early years of the Thatcher
regime. And this was largely continuous with movements that came
before and continued after; most of the wholefood co-operatives and
"fair trade" initiatives that started then are still in operation in
much the same way. (There have not been many new ones, you'd have
a point there).

I don't think the social movements of the late 60s and 70s would have
been very different if the Vietnam War had never happened.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.


Frogleg 14-11-2003 03:28 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
On 14 Nov 2003 05:05:53 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:


>However, I'm tempted now, due to Bob's comments, to just define counterculture
>food as what happened during the '60s and 70s.


Much more graspable topic. But then, (oh, it's fun to nitpick) you'll
be unable to include current food-fights globalization, fast-food
fatties, "organic" (which I don't recall as a major component of 60s
'back to the land' movement), and, in a large part, giant
agribusiness.

However, given universal interest in and ever-changing views of the
food scene, I think restricting your research to a manageable time
period would be wise. :-) Good luck.

Michael Ackerman 14-11-2003 04:40 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
There are some useful history books on this subject:

Warren Belasco's _Appetite for Change: How the Counterculture Took on the
Food Industry_ views the food reform movement of the 1960s and 1970s as many
of the previous respondents do: as a leftist, pro-environmental,
anti-corporate crusade against agribusiness and the food industry.

James Whorton's _Crusaders for Fitness_ looks at the health reform tradition
in America that originated in the first half of the 19th century. (He
discusses Graham, Kellogg, etc.) Although the book does not go beyond the
1920s, in the book's conclusion and in other writings, he links the
post-1960s food reform movement to this tradition. He sees the movement as
basically concerned with health and, in particular, with fears about the
impact of urban-industrial society on health.

Next month, I believe, an article that I wrote on the subject will be
published in Robert Johnston's _Politics of Healing_, an anthology of
articles on alternative medicine in the US in the 20th century. I examine
(what I call) the modern health foods movement, which originated in the
1930s in the wake of the discovery of vitamins and related nutritional
matters. (The organic foods movement in the US was one part of this
movement.) I discuss both the scientific aspect of the movement, and the
ideological aspect (which is definitely anti-modernist and
pro-environmental, but not fundamentally leftist -- in the 1950s the
movement had close links to the far right). Although my articles stops in
1965, I believe that the food ideas embraced by the youth counterculture in
the 1960s came mainly from the post-1930s health foods movement. (One
difference: the post-1960s movement endorsed vegetarianism, while the
earlier movement did not.)

I'd also like to disagree with those who claim that the countercultural food
movement died after the 1970s. Organic/sustainable agriculture, opposition
to bioengineered foods, the slow-foods movement, etc. are all in the same
anti-modernist ideological tradition as both the pre-and-post-1960s health
foods movement.

Michael Ackerman
Grad Student, Dept. of History
University of Virginia



Bob Pastorio 14-11-2003 06:37 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
Michael Ackerman wrote:

> There are some useful history books on this subject:
>
> Warren Belasco's _Appetite for Change: How the Counterculture Took on the
> Food Industry_ views the food reform movement of the 1960s and 1970s as many
> of the previous respondents do: as a leftist, pro-environmental,
> anti-corporate crusade against agribusiness and the food industry.


Did the counterculture really "take on" the food industry or did it
simply opt out? Some of both?

> James Whorton's _Crusaders for Fitness_ looks at the health reform tradition
> in America that originated in the first half of the 19th century. (He
> discusses Graham, Kellogg, etc.) Although the book does not go beyond the
> 1920s, in the book's conclusion and in other writings, he links the
> post-1960s food reform movement to this tradition. He sees the movement as
> basically concerned with health and, in particular, with fears about the
> impact of urban-industrial society on health.


Lamentably, most of those pioneers were simply wrong about most of
their tenets. No science to speak of but a great deal of conviction.
Think Salisbury's steaks, Graham's flour that lives on as a sugary
cookie, Kellogg's empty cereals and Post's ersatz grain products.

> Next month, I believe, an article that I wrote on the subject will be
> published in Robert Johnston's _Politics of Healing_, an anthology of
> articles on alternative medicine in the US in the 20th century. I examine
> (what I call) the modern health foods movement, which originated in the
> 1930s in the wake of the discovery of vitamins and related nutritional
> matters. (The organic foods movement in the US was one part of this
> movement.) I discuss both the scientific aspect of the movement, and the
> ideological aspect (which is definitely anti-modernist and
> pro-environmental, but not fundamentally leftist -- in the 1950s the
> movement had close links to the far right). Although my articles stops in
> 1965, I believe that the food ideas embraced by the youth counterculture in
> the 1960s came mainly from the post-1930s health foods movement. (One
> difference: the post-1960s movement endorsed vegetarianism, while the
> earlier movement did not.)


And, I think it's fair to say, they also adopted other ways of eating
because they were other ways. Macrobiotic and the like.

> I'd also like to disagree with those who claim that the countercultural food
> movement died after the 1970s. Organic/sustainable agriculture, opposition
> to bioengineered foods, the slow-foods movement, etc. are all in the same
> anti-modernist ideological tradition as both the pre-and-post-1960s health
> foods movement.


I agree that it's still alive. The Staunton, VA farmers' market where
I live (and used to sell my products) shows it (about an hour from
Charlottesville). There are conventional producers selling their
wares, but also artisans who make baked goods, cheeses, soaps, etc.
And other farmers who grow antique varieties of commodity plants.
Others who grow livestock on open range. Not only health, but quality.
Better flavors. Better utility. Better appearance. Closed for the
season, unfortunately. Back up in april.

Pastorio


> Michael Ackerman
> Grad Student, Dept. of History
> University of Virginia



Peggy 14-11-2003 07:31 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
Bob Pastorio wrote:

> Michael Ackerman wrote:
>
>> Next month, I believe, an article that I wrote on the subject will be
>> published in Robert Johnston's _Politics of Healing_, an anthology of
>> articles on alternative medicine in the US in the 20th century. I
>> examine
>> (what I call) the modern health foods movement, which originated in the
>> 1930s in the wake of the discovery of vitamins and related nutritional
>> matters. (The organic foods movement in the US was one part of this
>> movement.) I discuss both the scientific aspect of the movement, and the
>> ideological aspect (which is definitely anti-modernist and
>> pro-environmental, but not fundamentally leftist -- in the 1950s the
>> movement had close links to the far right). Although my articles
>> stops in
>> 1965, I believe that the food ideas embraced by the youth
>> counterculture in
>> the 1960s came mainly from the post-1930s health foods movement. (One
>> difference: the post-1960s movement endorsed vegetarianism, while the
>> earlier movement did not.)

>
>
> And, I think it's fair to say, they also adopted other ways of eating
> because they were other ways. Macrobiotic and the like.


As I recall, as macrobiotics we ate our share of chicken and fish, along
with the dreaded tofu and great, disgusting wads of brown rice (which we
cooked on a word-burning stove -- it took hours!). And pre-1960s, let's
remember Adele Davis. Raw liver for breakfast, anyone? I think it's
interesting that the gurus of both these "movements" died rather young.

Peg


ASmith1946 14-11-2003 10:47 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
>
>I arrived in the US in 1974, from Australia and NZ, and stayed two
>years, moving on to the UK. It struck me immediately that there
>was much *less* of an active counterculture in the US than I was
>used to, and what there was was mostly driven by black activism
>rather than anything to do with the war. The communal values that
>were being promoted as radical alternatives either came from Afro-
>American culture or were perceived as doing so.


While Vietnam "fell" in 1975, American troops were generally out in 1973, and
the major anti-war demonstrations were over by then.

As Warren Belasco points out in "Appetite for Change," the commune period was
1971-72. That you found little in 1974 doesn't surprise me and it seems that
this supports my original statements.

During the mid-70s, black power was a major focus, but I don't recall that it
had many food dimensions other than inventing "soul food" and creating culinary
traditions for Kwanza. (Okay-- you can all jump on this)

>
>I don't think the social movements of the late 60s and 70s would have
>been very different if the Vietnam War had never happened.


We disagree. I don't think the social movements of the '60s and '70s would not
have taken the turns that they did without the Vietnam War. The war radicalized
people. Once people lost faith in one aspect of the "system," it was easier to
question other aspects and justify violent action, a la the Weathermen, and
SDS. And violence turned many Americans against the radicals.

Andy Smith


ASmith1946 15-11-2003 01:36 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
>
>I'd also like to disagree with those who claim that the countercultural food
>movement died after the 1970s. Organic/sustainable agriculture, opposition
>to bioengineered foods, the slow-foods movement, etc. are all in the same
>anti-modernist ideological tradition as both the pre-and-post-1960s health
>foods movement.
>



Michael:

I look forward to reading your article. Your above statements, however, appear
to me to disagree with Warren Belasco's views presented in "Appetite for
Change." Warren points out that the core of the countercultural movement was
the hippies, who stressed communial experiences. J. I. Rodale et al in organic
gardening promoted the Jeffersonian ideal of the yeoman farmer, which is very
different.

Lumping very diverse groups who espouse very different ideals --communes, small
organic farmers, anti-gmo and anti-globalization types -- simply because you
define them as "anti-modernist" doesn't seem to me to be particularly helpful
or insightful. Or am I misunderstanding your point?

Andy Smith

Mark Zanger 23-11-2003 10:41 PM

History of Counterculture Food
 
>>As soon as Vietnam War ended, so did the counterculture movement, although
there are indeed remnants still around today.<<

Food was one of the most enduring legacies of the 60s. The movement to
"natural" food quickly spread (I have an all-organic recipe in a far-right
religious pamphlet of the mid 70s) and continues to play out.


--
-Mark H. Zanger
author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
Students
www.ethnicook.com
www.historycook.com

"ASmith1946" > wrote in message
...
> This may be just a semantic difference. There were certainly food reform
> efforts in America before the 1960s and to some extent every reform effort

is
> countercultural by definition.
>
> But the term "counterculture" was raised to specifically describe a broad
> phenomena that began in the '60. It wasn't really a food reform effort,

at
> least it wasn't like Graham's or Kellogg's previous efforts. It was a

political
> movement -- with the anti-Vietnam War being the driving force. It

certainly had
> social and economic dimensions-- the attempt to create a better world

through
> communal living and the destruction (or replacement) of the capitalist

economic
> system. Food was just a side order.
>
> As soon as Vietnam War ended, so did the counterculture movement, although
> there are indeed remnants still around today.
>
> Recent food fights-- re GMOs and globalization-- do have some similar
> characteristcs as did the efforts during the '60s and '70s, which is why I
> added them to my original list.
>
> However, I'm tempted now, due to Bob's comments, to just define

counterculture
> food as what happened during the '60s and 70s.
>
> Many, many thanks to all who have commented.
>
> Andy Smith
>
> >
> >>Counterculture food started in America during the late sixties and early
> >>seventies.

> >
> >I don't think so. Note Pastorio's mention of Kellogg and Graham, who
> >were certainly "counterculture" in America in the 19th century. Here's
> >an interesting reference:
> >

>
>
>





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