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Historic (rec.food.historic) Discussing and discovering how food was made and prepared way back when--From ancient times down until (& possibly including or even going slightly beyond) the times when industrial revolution began to change our lives. |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
"Dora Smith" > wrote in message
> In the following recipe, I am learning that the meaning of the word clove > is not clear. Does it refer to cloves, or to cloves of garlic? > The recipe is that for Spanish-rice Skillet, on p 174 of the current > loose-leaf edition of the 1953 Better Homes and GArdens New Cook Book. > Recipe calls for 4 whole cloves, then says to remove them after cookign > along with the bay leaf. > 4 slices bacon > 1 cup chopped onion > 1/4 coup chopped green pepper > 2 10 1/2 or 11 ounce cans condensed tomato soup > 1/2 cup rice > 1/2 cup water > 4 whole cloves > 1 bay leaf > 1/2 tsp salt Unless it's a misprint I would say that "clove" here means the spice Syzygium aromaticum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clove. Particularly since the recipe says to remove them along with the bay leaves. > ingredients; cover tightly and cook slowly 50 minutes. Stir occasionally. > Remove cloves and bay leaf; After 50 minutes of slow cooking any clove of garlic would have been reduced to mush. -- Bob http://www.kanyak.com |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
Dora Smith wrote:
> In the following recipe, I am learning that the meaning of the word clove is > not clear. Does it refer to cloves, or to cloves of garlic? > > The recipe is that for Spanish-rice Skillet, on p 174 of the current > loose-leaf edition of the 1953 Better Homes and GArdens New Cook Book. > > Recipe calls for 4 whole cloves, then says to remove them after cookign > along with the bay leaf. > > 4 slices bacon > 1 cup chopped onion > 1/4 coup chopped green pepper > 2 10 1/2 or 11 ounce cans condensed tomato soup > 1/2 cup rice > 1/2 cup water > 4 whole cloves > 1 bay leaf > 1/2 tsp salt > > Cut bacon in small pieces; fry until crisp in heavy skillet; remove bacon. > > Cook onion and green pepper in bacon fat until golden. Add remaining > ingredients; cover tightly and cook slowly 50 minutes. Stir occasionally. > > Remove cloves and bay leaf; sprinkle crisp bacon over top. Makes 5 to 6 > servings. > > Apparently some older recipes actually tell you to put in a clove of garlic, > whole, and remove after cooking, and noone has ever heard of cloves in > spanish rice. > No answer--at least yet. But the 1951 ed. contains no such recipe. The one for Spanish rice clearly is not this recipe's ancestor. -- Jean B. |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
"Dora Smith" > wrote ... > In the following recipe, I am learning that the meaning of the word clove > is not clear. Does it refer to cloves, or to cloves of garlic? > > The recipe is that for Spanish-rice Skillet, on p 174 of the current > loose-leaf edition of the 1953 Better Homes and GArdens New Cook Book. > > Recipe calls for 4 whole cloves, then says to remove them after cookign > along with the bay leaf. > > 4 slices bacon > 1 cup chopped onion > 1/4 coup chopped green pepper > 2 10 1/2 or 11 ounce cans condensed tomato soup > 1/2 cup rice > 1/2 cup water > 4 whole cloves > 1 bay leaf > 1/2 tsp salt > > Cut bacon in small pieces; fry until crisp in heavy skillet; remove bacon. > > Cook onion and green pepper in bacon fat until golden. Add remaining > ingredients; cover tightly and cook slowly 50 minutes. Stir occasionally. > > Remove cloves and bay leaf; sprinkle crisp bacon over top. Makes 5 to 6 > servings. > > Apparently some older recipes actually tell you to put in a clove of > garlic, whole, and remove after cooking, and noone has ever heard of > cloves in spanish rice. > > I'll vote for garlic vs. spice, having trouble imagining what cloves might add to the dish, while garlic seems needed (but in this large a quantity). This seems, even for 1953, a really noxious dish, closer to a Jambalaya missing the sausage or ham and shrimp, proposed as a disposal method for several shiploads of Campbell's tomato soup. A near contemporary (actually adapted from a mother's 1950s kitchen), used by roommates (variable numbers, 3-5) and I when living in "The Alamo", an enormous stucco house out on Enfield Road, Austin, 1960..... (and some of the quantities may be off from 50 years of fortunate non-use). Preheat oven to 350F Chop two onions, a green pepper, a canned jalapeno and 4-5 cloves of garlic. Brown 2 lbs ground beef, adding onions, peppers and garlic after meat browns. Remove meat mixture, leaving "drippings" in which... Sauté 2 cups of rice. Mix in large lidded casserole with A quart or so of V8 juice 3-4 bay leaves (if they're the old dry kind) a liberal 1/4 cup of Worcestershire 1 tsp salt Black pepper Liberal lashing of Louisiana hot sauce (most brands are milder than Tabasco) Cover and baked until liquid is absorbed, rice done, 30-40 minutes Meanwhile chop/tear a pound or more (or even two pounds) of Velveeta into small pieces and mixed with a chopped jalapeno. Remove lid, spread cheese over top, and put under broiler until cheese (? - Well close to cheese) gets brown and bubbly. Feeds a number of college aged young men, especially when served with other contemporaries, a 1/4 wedge of iceberg topped with thousand island and "Garlic bread". |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
The obvious thing, if this matters to you, is to test the recipe both ways.
I can see either one in a 1951 book. General Foods test kitchen could have wanted the limited garlic effect (although four cloves seems like a lot if you are going to remove them anyway) and made an editing error, or could have wanted clove cloves for a quasi-Greek effect. The precedents go back hundreds of years, as many early recipes for tomatoes are called "Spanish." The dish goes back farther, perhaps, as "red rice" in the Carolinas. So the whole question is kind of like taking a 1948 Fannie Farmer recipe for baked beans and asking what are the precedents? Obviously this recipe has personal meaning for you, so the taste test is crucial. -- -Mark H. Zanger author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for Students www.ethnicook.com www.historycook.com "Dora Smith" > wrote in message ... > In the following recipe, I am learning that the meaning of the word clove > is not clear. Does it refer to cloves, or to cloves of garlic? > > The recipe is that for Spanish-rice Skillet, on p 174 of the current > loose-leaf edition of the 1953 Better Homes and GArdens New Cook Book. > > Recipe calls for 4 whole cloves, then says to remove them after cookign > along with the bay leaf. > > 4 slices bacon > 1 cup chopped onion > 1/4 coup chopped green pepper > 2 10 1/2 or 11 ounce cans condensed tomato soup > 1/2 cup rice > 1/2 cup water > 4 whole cloves > 1 bay leaf > 1/2 tsp salt > > Cut bacon in small pieces; fry until crisp in heavy skillet; remove bacon. > > Cook onion and green pepper in bacon fat until golden. Add remaining > ingredients; cover tightly and cook slowly 50 minutes. Stir occasionally. > > Remove cloves and bay leaf; sprinkle crisp bacon over top. Makes 5 to 6 > servings. > > Apparently some older recipes actually tell you to put in a clove of > garlic, whole, and remove after cooking, and noone has ever heard of > cloves in spanish rice. > > > > -- > Yours, > Dora Smith > Austin, TX > > |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:16:47 -0500, "Mark Zanger" >
wrote: >The obvious thing, if this matters to you, is to test the recipe both ways. >I can see either one in a 1951 book. General Foods test kitchen could have >wanted the limited garlic effect (although four cloves seems like a lot if >you are going to remove them anyway) and made an editing error, or could >have wanted clove cloves for a quasi-Greek effect. I would have thought the use of cloves would have been to reflect a Moorish influence. As would any 'Spanish' dish that included cloves, mace, nutmeg, cinnamon, etc. |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
"Robert Klute" > wrote .... , "Mark Zanger" > > wrote: > >>The obvious thing, if this matters to you, is to test the recipe both >>ways. >>I can see either one in a 1951 book. General Foods test kitchen could have >>wanted the limited garlic effect (although four cloves seems like a lot if >>you are going to remove them anyway) and made an editing error, or could >>have wanted clove cloves for a quasi-Greek effect. > > I would have thought the use of cloves would have been to reflect a > Moorish influence. As would any 'Spanish' dish that included cloves, > mace, nutmeg, cinnamon, etc. Other than with mincemeat and a few dishes from the Middle East, I'm not familiar with the use of "cloves" in this ingredient mix, but do see the sense and sensibility of cloves of garlic... Besides, until now, I had not realized that Campbell's Condensed Tomato Soup was a major component in the Moorish Pantry.... The use of tomatoes along moves the dish from Moorish/Spanish origin into the modern world. One may trace the arrival of Rice on the Iberian Peninsula to the Moors (tenuously), but rice dishes tended to be prepared with liquids from other than the tomato, still waiting for the cargo ship to haul in Transpondia.... TMO |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:56:25 -0600, "TMOliver"
> wrote: > >"Robert Klute" > wrote .... >, "Mark Zanger" > >> wrote: >> >>>The obvious thing, if this matters to you, is to test the recipe both >>>ways. >>>I can see either one in a 1951 book. General Foods test kitchen could have >>>wanted the limited garlic effect (although four cloves seems like a lot if >>>you are going to remove them anyway) and made an editing error, or could >>>have wanted clove cloves for a quasi-Greek effect. >> >> I would have thought the use of cloves would have been to reflect a >> Moorish influence. As would any 'Spanish' dish that included cloves, >> mace, nutmeg, cinnamon, etc. > >Other than with mincemeat and a few dishes from the Middle East, I'm not >familiar with the use of "cloves" in this ingredient mix, but do see the >sense and sensibility of cloves of garlic... > >Besides, until now, I had not realized that Campbell's Condensed Tomato Soup >was a major component in the Moorish Pantry.... > >The use of tomatoes along moves the dish from Moorish/Spanish origin into >the modern world. One may trace the arrival of Rice on the Iberian >Peninsula to the Moors (tenuously), but rice dishes tended to be prepared >with liquids from other than the tomato, still waiting for the cargo ship to >haul in Transpondia.... By that reasoning, there would be no tomatoes in Italian dishes. As for the use of soup mix, this recipe is from a 1951 cookbook. This was an age when cream of mushroom soup was the universal replacement for bechamel. Also, this could be an adaptation of a Mexican dish in the 'Spanish style'. In that case, again, either garlic or spice could have been used. The best de terminator would be to examine other recipes in the same cook book and see where the same ingredient and technique is used to build a profile, since here it is ambiguous. |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
"TMOliver" > writes:
>"Robert Klute" > wrote .... >, "Mark Zanger" > >> wrote: >> >>>The obvious thing, if this matters to you, is to test the recipe both >>>ways. >>>I can see either one in a 1951 book. General Foods test kitchen could have >>>wanted the limited garlic effect (although four cloves seems like a lot if >>>you are going to remove them anyway) and made an editing error, or could >>>have wanted clove cloves for a quasi-Greek effect. >> >> I would have thought the use of cloves would have been to reflect a >> Moorish influence. As would any 'Spanish' dish that included cloves, >> mace, nutmeg, cinnamon, etc. > >Other than with mincemeat and a few dishes from the Middle East, I'm not >familiar with the use of "cloves" in this ingredient mix, but do see the >sense and sensibility of cloves of garlic... > >Besides, until now, I had not realized that Campbell's Condensed Tomato Soup >was a major component in the Moorish Pantry.... The Campbells are cumin. Lee Rudolph |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
Pardon me, I lost the nested attribution ...
In article >, Robert Klute > wrote: >>The use of tomatoes along moves the dish from Moorish/Spanish origin into >>the modern world. One may trace the arrival of Rice on the Iberian >>Peninsula to the Moors (tenuously), but rice dishes tended to be prepared >>with liquids from other than the tomato, still waiting for the cargo ship to >>haul in Transpondia.... > >By that reasoning, there would be no tomatoes in Italian dishes. As Not quite. I think what the original intent was, was to say that tomatoes are New World, and since the Moorish occupation of Spain ended roughly in 1492 (according to wikipedia), there can be no tomatoes in "Moorish-Spanish" recipes, although certainly in either Moorish or Spanish recipes. The reasoning means, quite correctly, that there are no tomatoes in Imperial Roman dishes:-) Jeff Berry , Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne Whyt Whey, East ( >| http://www.panix.com/~nexus ) /| "You're a notch and I'm a legend"-------Alice Cooper "I don't need TV when I've got T-Rex"------Mott the Hoople |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
Lee Rudolph wrote:
> "TMOliver" > writes: > > >>"Robert Klute" > wrote .... >>, "Mark Zanger" > >> >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>>>The obvious thing, if this matters to you, is to test the recipe both >>>>ways. >>>>I can see either one in a 1951 book. General Foods test kitchen could have >>>>wanted the limited garlic effect (although four cloves seems like a lot if >>>>you are going to remove them anyway) and made an editing error, or could >>>>have wanted clove cloves for a quasi-Greek effect. >>> >>>I would have thought the use of cloves would have been to reflect a >>>Moorish influence. As would any 'Spanish' dish that included cloves, >>>mace, nutmeg, cinnamon, etc. >> >>Other than with mincemeat and a few dishes from the Middle East, I'm not >>familiar with the use of "cloves" in this ingredient mix, but do see the >>sense and sensibility of cloves of garlic... >> >>Besides, until now, I had not realized that Campbell's Condensed Tomato Soup >>was a major component in the Moorish Pantry.... > > > The Campbells are cumin. > > Lee Rudolph Lee, that is too much. I can't stop laughing long enough so I can post a note to Dora!!! Dora, Your recipe is calling for the the spice. Every cook in 1951 would have a can or jar of whole cloves and a can or jar of ground cloves on the shelf. Ground cloves would be used for items such as gingerbread, fruitcake, etc and whole cloves would have been used in canning, preserving ( pickled peaches stuck with whole cloves, pickled beets stuck with whole cloves. Also, it was common to cut a diamond pattern on whole hams and stick a whole clove in the center of each diamond. Many bean recipes call for the addition of whole cloves that are to be fished out later. I collect cookbooks and I have never seen a recipe that I knew to be calling for garlic that did not use the word garlic. "a clove of garlic," "a pod of garlic," "a button of garlic," "a bulb of garlic," etc. I am with you. I don't recall running across a recipe for Spanish rice that called for cloves. I really think that Better Homes and Gardens just thinks that cloves are appropriate for a Spanish dish. However, I doubt very much that Spanish rice is Spanish. I think that it is far more likely to be Caribbean. Charleston rice combined with New World bell peppers and tomatoes, blessed with Old World (Spanish?) onion. Well, you posted on Feb 19th and have probably make your recipe by now. What did you use and how did it turn out. Let us know. Cookie |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, Cookie Cutter wrote:
> I don't recall running across a recipe for Spanish rice that > called for cloves. I really think that Better Homes and Gardens just thinks > that cloves are appropriate for a Spanish dish. However, I doubt very much > that Spanish rice is Spanish. I think that it is far more likely to be > Caribbean. Charleston rice combined with New World bell peppers and > tomatoes, blessed with Old World (Spanish?) onion. I agree with all of that. Additionally, I'd suggest that the cloves are an attempt to mimic the Caribbean flavour. I'm guessing that they were the nearest flavour to allspice ("the dried unripe fruit of the Pimenta dioica plant") likely to be found in a 1950s kitchen. John Wexler Edinburgh |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
"J Wexler" > wrote in message .ac.uk... > On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, Cookie Cutter wrote: > >> I don't recall running across a recipe for Spanish rice that called for >> cloves. I really think that Better Homes and Gardens just thinks that >> cloves are appropriate for a Spanish dish. However, I doubt very much >> that Spanish rice is Spanish. I think that it is far more likely to be >> Caribbean. Charleston rice combined with New World bell peppers and >> tomatoes, blessed with Old World (Spanish?) onion. > > I agree with all of that. Additionally, I'd suggest that the cloves are > an attempt to mimic the Caribbean flavour. I'm guessing that they were > the nearest flavour to allspice ("the dried unripe fruit of the Pimenta > dioica plant") likely to be found in a 1950s kitchen. > Without alluding to the lack of sanity or insecure grasp of reality of some of the respondents.... "Spanish" rice (mostly descended from Spain often via Cuba and having lost saffron along the way, but"reddened" with either annato/achiote in Mexican - TexMex - restaurants and in the home with canned tomatoes, tomato paste, tomato sauce, fresh tomatoes), and all quite like - except for less meat - a "Standard" of both Creole and Cajun kitchens in next door Louisiana, "Jambalaya" (ham or Tasso, Shrimp, or even crawfish) was as common a dish in the 50s where I lived as scalloped potatoes. Almost every version, than as now, contained garlic cloves (chopped or crushed in homes where garlic was a beatified if not sanctified ingredient), whole where Anglocentrism was at a higher plane and the little boogers were removed from the pot less they offend dad, one of them there Southren Baptists that kept his whisk(e)y in a paper sack under the back porch.. I don't know about Edinburgh, for the Scots until translated across Appalachia to Texas had the culinary imagination of sheep, but in my home (Anglo-Scot), Allspice was a standard jar on the spice rack, a constituent of a number of baking recipes, as a ingredient in "rubs" for meat, etc., and also on the shelf whole cloves was for many things but in the meatish line, reserved for studding hams when glazing. Ground cloves. That was my job, the "little man" who got to hand grind cloves as we did with allspice (or rubbing the nutmeg down the side of its own little grater. I can assure you that any who were familiar with cloves was likely to be aware of allspice, two distinctive spices. I've seen canela (Mexican cinnamon), mace, and ground cloves blended to imitate allspice, but its only emulation not resemblance... It was the Gott Verboten Tomato Soup that drew my ire and fire, 'cuz you can rest assured the cloves was ajo, breakfast of champions. TMO |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
"Cookie Cutter" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag ... > Your recipe is calling for the the spice. I think so, too. Especially the fact that the cloves are not crushed and roasted with the onions (which is standard for garlic) and later removed together with the bayleaf means spice. <snip> > I am with you. I don't recall running across a recipe for Spanish rice > that called for cloves. Well, posh Austrian rice does. Peel onion, cut in halves. Stick four cloves into one onion half and put that into the pot on top of the rice you intend to cook. When rice is done, remove onion half with cloves. The rice tastes better than rice just cooked in water (IMO). <snip> Cheers, Michael Kuettner |
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Is a clove a clove, or a clove of garlic?
In article >,
"Jean B." > wrote: > Dora Smith wrote: > > In the following recipe, I am learning that the meaning of the word clove > > is > > not clear. Does it refer to cloves, or to cloves of garlic? > > > > The recipe is that for Spanish-rice Skillet, on p 174 of the current > > loose-leaf edition of the 1953 Better Homes and GArdens New Cook Book. > > > > Recipe calls for 4 whole cloves, then says to remove them after cookign > > along with the bay leaf. > > > > 4 slices bacon > > 1 cup chopped onion > > 1/4 coup chopped green pepper > > 2 10 1/2 or 11 ounce cans condensed tomato soup > > 1/2 cup rice > > 1/2 cup water > > 4 whole cloves > > 1 bay leaf > > 1/2 tsp salt > > > > Cut bacon in small pieces; fry until crisp in heavy skillet; remove bacon. > > > > Cook onion and green pepper in bacon fat until golden. Add remaining > > ingredients; cover tightly and cook slowly 50 minutes. Stir occasionally. > > > > Remove cloves and bay leaf; sprinkle crisp bacon over top. Makes 5 to 6 > > servings. > > > > Apparently some older recipes actually tell you to put in a clove of > > garlic, > > whole, and remove after cooking, and noone has ever heard of cloves in > > spanish rice. > > > > No answer--at least yet. But the 1951 ed. contains no such > recipe. The one for Spanish rice clearly is not this recipe's > ancestor. Well, that pretty well pins down the date for the recipe change. I have a 1938 edition and here's the Spanish Rice ingredient list from page 15 of the Vegetables section ( Chapter XIV). 4 tbsp. oil 1 cup rice 1 onion, sliced 1 small clove garlic 1 green pepper, chopped 1 quart canned tomatoes 1 tsp. salt 1/8 tsp. pepper 1/4 tsp. chili powder 1 cup grated cheese This edition is old enough to be free of "canned cream of mushroom soup" as a sauce substitute but worcestershire sauce and chili sauce are quite noticeable. (e.g. chili sauce in "Mexican Green Beans") I have no question that "4 cloves" refers to the spice. That is totally consistent with mid 20th century cookbook usage. BTW, note the tiny amount of "chili powder" called for. An interesting case of toning down 'furrin' food for Middle American tastes (as was seen in chili and tamale pie) as well as conflating Spain and Mexico. D.M. |
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