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Old 13-03-2006, 12:19 AM posted to alt.christnet.christianlife,sci.med.cardiology,alt.atheism,rec.food.cooking
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Default Creation

wrote:

If you believe in God then you also believe that he created the
Universe and all living creatures.


.... and the "natural" laws that govern the universe, including the
space-time continuum.

The logical next question that arrises from this hypothesis is that if
all this has been created then what created God?


Belief arises from faith and is not hypothesis:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, Who is, and Who was, and is to come, the
Almighty." -- LORD GOD

You can then argue that God has just always existed and was not
created.


The LORD's purpose for me here is to inform and neither to argue or
convince as is the purpose of HIS four horsemen described in Revelation
6.

But if you argue this then the proposition that the Universe has always
existed carries equal merit.


Without the LORD, your opinion is meaningless (Ecclesiastes).

SO THE ARGUEMENT FOR A GOD/CREATOR IS SELF DEFEATING.


Those who choose to be reborn of water and the Holy Spirit have indeed
died to self.

Each hypothesis carries equal weight and they negate each
other perfectly.


Withour the LORD, your opinion remains meaningless (Ecclesiastes).

So the only logical thing is to believe in neither.


That is not what I discern.

For this you will be in my prayers, dear JT whom I love, in Jesus' most
precious and holy name.

May GOD continue to draw you closer to HIM.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the 2006 global earthquake advisory,
cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread here
during the next on-line chat (03/16/06) from 6 to 7 pm EST:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/rgsp8



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Old 13-03-2006, 05:06 AM posted to alt.christnet.christianlife,sci.med.cardiology,alt.atheism,rec.food.cooking
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Default Creation

Children have complete faith in their belief in things like Santa Claus
and the Tooth Fairy.They can even tell you elaborate details about
them.
But no amount of faith can make them exist,regardless of how much they
want them to.

What you believe to be true is irrelevent.All that matters is what is
true.It is the only hope for the future of our species and our planet

There are answers to every question but we need to learn that many of
them are beyond our reach.False answers to these questions is called
theology ..

JT

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Old 13-03-2006, 09:24 AM posted to alt.christnet.christianlife,sci.med.cardiology,alt.atheism,rec.food.cooking
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Default Faith in LORD Jesus Christ

sanity's IittIe helper wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
wrote:
If you believe in God then you also believe that he created the
Universe and all living creatures.


... and the "natural" laws that govern the universe, including the
space-time continuum.

The logical next question that arrises from this hypothesis is that if
all this has been created then what created God?


Belief arises from faith and is not hypothesis:

Belief arises from faith in empty hypotheses


Incorrect.

, and those who spout them.


Incorrect.

Your faith is an expression of your anger and frustration at your
failure to grow up and grasp realities that are common to all
functionally adult human beings.


Incorrect.

Your vendetta against alt.atheism is an
expression of your bitterness and jealousy at our capability of
independent thought.


Actually, Disciple "Doubting" Thomas was an atheist up until the very
last moment of seeing the risen LORD Jesus Christ.

It's your problem, go away and deal with it.


The LORD continues to guide me in everything I say, do, and write.

If you need help, place
your trust in clinical psychologists and the medicines they may see fit
to prescribe.


Faith in LORD Jesus Christ has been more effective.

You will remain in my prayers, dear David whom I love, in Jesus' most
precious and holy name.

May GOD continue to draw you closer to HIM.

Amen.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the 2006 global earthquake advisory,
cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread here
during the next on-line chat (03/16/06) from 6 to 7 pm EST:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/rgsp8


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Old 13-03-2006, 09:24 AM posted to alt.christnet.christianlife,sci.med.cardiology,alt.atheism,rec.food.cooking
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Default The Truth

wrote:

Children have complete faith in their belief in things like Santa Claus
and the Tooth Fairy.


Such are the children of parents who would teach their children such
things.

They can even tell you elaborate details about
them.


Not in my experience.

But no amount of faith can make them exist,regardless of how much they
want them to.


Correct.

What you believe to be true is irrelevent.


Without the LORD, your opinion is meaningless (Ecclesiastes).

All that matters is what is
true.


Correct.

It is the only hope for the future of our species and our planet


"I am the way, the truth, and the life" -- LORD Jesus Christ

There are answers to every question but we need to learn that many of
them are beyond our reach.


.... not for those who have chosen to walk with Christ Jesus, Who is the
source of all knowledge and wisdom.

False answers to these questions is called
theology ..


May you find the true answers through LORD Christ Jesus.

For this you will be in my prayers, dear JT whom I love, in Jesus' most
precious and holy name.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the 2006 global earthquake advisory,
cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread here
during the next on-line chat (03/16/06) from 6 to 7 pm EST:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/rgsp8




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Old 13-03-2006, 02:14 PM posted to alt.christnet.christianlife,sci.med.cardiology,alt.atheism,rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 1
Default The Truth


"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Children have complete faith in their belief in things like Santa Claus
and the Tooth Fairy.


Such are the children of parents who would teach their children such
things.

They can even tell you elaborate details about
them.


Not in my experience.

But no amount of faith can make them exist,regardless of how much they
want them to.


Correct.

What you believe to be true is irrelevent.


Without the LORD, your opinion is meaningless (Ecclesiastes).

All that matters is what is
true.


Correct.

It is the only hope for the future of our species and our planet


"I am the way, the truth, and the life" -- LORD Jesus Christ

There are answers to every question but we need to learn that many of
them are beyond our reach.


... not for those who have chosen to walk with Christ Jesus, Who is the
source of all knowledge and wisdom.


So why didnt he pass any of this infinite knowledge and wisdom to world when
he was supposedly here 2000 years ago?
He did not utter one word of knowledge that was unknown at the time. Not one
scientific fact, not one idea of how to heal the sick, not one idea on how
to feed the world - nothing.
He supposedly performed a few miracles that saved the odd individual or gave
5000 one meal but what would have been truly miraculous is if he had given
one clue as to the causes of the suffering he found.


False answers to these questions is called
theology ..


May you find the true answers through LORD Christ Jesus.


he didnt give much away the first time around


For this you will be in my prayers, dear JT whom I love, in Jesus' most
precious and holy name.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the 2006 global earthquake advisory,
cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread here
during the next on-line chat (03/16/06) from 6 to 7 pm EST:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/rgsp8




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Old 13-03-2006, 04:42 PM posted to alt.christnet.christianlife,sci.med.cardiology,alt.atheism,rec.food.cooking
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5
Default The Truth

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

ORD, your opinion is meaningless (Ecclesiastes).

All that matters is what is
true.


Correct.



Here is the truth. Your god does
not exist. Its provaIS THERE A GOD?
Strong Atheism's answer.

A BASIC DEFINITION OF GOD.

The general overarching definition of god as per
the major religions of the world is:

A. God is personal, God has will and consciousness.
B. God has free will.
C. God is the creator of all.
D. God is omnipotent.
E. God is omnibenevolent.
F. God is omniscient.
G. God is that which nothing more powerful
can be imagined.

These are the basic attributes that can be claimed
for the god of orthodox Judaism, Christianity,
Islam, and Hinduism.

Omnibenevolence and omniscience are actually
logically derivable from the claimed attribute of
omnipotence and so aren't not truly independent
attributes, and may be considered special aspects
of omnipotence.

There are other attributes of god, that he is the
only such god, that he is is immortal and that
god has always existed that are not important
for this discussion and for now, can be ignored.
They are secondary arguments and are for the most
part not foundational or truly necessary, except
those that can be logically derived from the
attributes listed above.

A CLASS OF GODS

It is important to note here that this is a
definition not for a particular god, but an
entire class of gods.
Sub-theories about god are not important here.
Christianity claims one may attain salvation
only through Jesus, Islam claims the Christian
dogma that Jesus was the son of god is
blasphemous.

Ideas like this though, are of little importance
to the overarching and general claims made for a
personal, creator, omni-everything god. I have
coined a term, The Grand God of Grand Theologies
for this sort of god, this sort of theological
system of expansive claims for god.
Grand theologies are those theologies that have
adopted this class of god as their basic
attributes concerning the nature of god. But it
is important to remember here that what is being
discussed here is a class of gods, not particular
gods or specific gods.

THE FOUR GREAT THEOLOGICAL TRADITIONS

Again, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism hold
to this basic Grand God and are typical Grand
Theologies holding to this basic class of god as
their basic definitions of what god is at god's
most basic level.

A big problem with this class of gods is, it
collapses rather easily into internal self-
contradiction.

THE PROBLEM OF EVIL.

The problem of evil was first written down by
Epicurus in about the third century BCE.

Today's formulation is:
A. God is defined as omnipotent;
B. and as omnibenevolent.
C. Evil exists.
D. God therefore, is not omnipotent as claimed.
E. Or God is not omnibenevolent as claimed.
F. Or god is neither omnipotent or
omnibenevolent.
G. Or god is not existant.

THE FREE WILL DEFENSE

The free will defense of the problem of evil goes
back to St. Augustine who popularized it. It is
still popular, and is championed most notably
today by Alvin Plantinga, but also by other
theologians.

God gave man free will. Man freely chooses to do
evil. Ability to do evil is less evil than
lacking free will.

THE FREE WILL DEFENSE DEBUNKED.

God has free will.
God is omnibenevolent, he has a good nature
incapable of doing evil.

A. If god can have free will, and a good nature,
this good nature is not allowed to count
against god's free will.
B. Nor is god's lack of ability to do evil
allowed to count against god's omnipotence.
C. Likewise, man could easily have a god like
free will and a god like good nature.
D. Inabilty then to do evil would no more count
against man's free will than it does for god's
free will.
E. If so, it also counts against god's free will
and god does not have free will as claimed.
F. If god does not have absolute and total free
will, thus free will is not a true necessity
at all.
F. If god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, and
can give man a god like free will and a
god-like good nature incapable of moral evil,
god must do so or god is not moral, not
omnibenevolent.
G. Evil exists because he allows it to.

So free will does not exist, or it does and we can
have a god like free will and a god like good
nature. Either way, free will cannot explain away
the existence of evil. This free will defense
then, is a failed argument.

OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD

God is defined as creator of all in most
religions.
And god is claimed to be omniscient, all knowing.

A. God created the Universe and all in it.
B. God is omniscient, all knowing, he knows all
in the Universe and he knows the future of the
Universe and its contents.
C. If god creates a Universe, he will know that
in 13 billion years this Universe will have a
man named John Smith in it.
D. If John Smith is good and saved, or evil and
damned, God will know that.
E. As he knows that the Universe in its present
state will have a John Smith, god may then
contemplate the future state of Smith and
decide if he will tolerate an evil Smith.
F. If yes, Smith will be evil only because of a
specific personal and will choice made solely
by god.
G. If Smith is evil, then evil exists solely
because of a choice made by god. In fact all
moral evil done by creations of god will be
evil and do evil only because of personal and
willful creations of god allowing evil acts
to be done, by direct decision of god.
H. If evil exists in a world with an omniscient
creator god, it is solely and only because
god allows evil.
I. If evil exists solely because of personal
choices of god, god then is not as defined,
omnibenevolent.
J. Man and any other sentient being in such a
Universe cannot have any free will, not even
in principle. A Universe with a god that
creates all and knows all precludes free will
for all beings god creates in the strongest
possible manner.

The Grand God of Grand
Theology is thus self destroying, it is
incoherent and contradictory as a theory
and such a god is impossible.

THE SITUATION SO FAR.

1. A minimalistic class of gods is defined, this
Grand God has been defined here with as few
terms as possible.
2. The problem of evil dooms such a claimed god.
3. The attempted defense, free will is fatally
flawed. God's good nature and free will doom
claims free will makes evil necessary for man
to have free will.
4. Omniscience and creatorhood of god further
doom claims of god's omnibenevolence and
man's free will free will cannot exist for
man. All evil is the direct and knowing
creation of god contradicting claims of
omnibenevolence.
5. Since Free will for man is totally impossible,
free will cannot be a good quality, much less
necessary.

Here, the Grand God of Grand Theology has
collapsed. As has Grand Theology. As pointed out,
this destroys the claims and viability of an
entire class of possible gods, all secondary and
tertiary claims for such a god of this class also
fail, as do dogmas or secondary or tertiary
claims.

If a these Grand Gods cannot exist as defined,
specific gods cannot, nor can claims such as this
or that Grand God sent this or that revelation to
man or some prophet or did this or that.

God is thus disproven and is utter irrelevant
to anything real and existant.


***********


ble


--

So you want to fight the Master!
First you must fight my brother Chang!

Cheerful Charlie

  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-03-2006, 10:41 PM posted to alt.christnet.christianlife,sci.med.cardiology,alt.atheism,rec.food.cooking
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 987
Default The Truth

Torch wrote:
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Children have complete faith in their belief in things like Santa Claus
and the Tooth Fairy.


Such are the children of parents who would teach their children such
things.

They can even tell you elaborate details about
them.


Not in my experience.

But no amount of faith can make them exist,regardless of how much they
want them to.


Correct.

What you believe to be true is irrelevent.


Without the LORD, your opinion is meaningless (Ecclesiastes).

All that matters is what is
true.


Correct.

It is the only hope for the future of our species and our planet


"I am the way, the truth, and the life" -- LORD Jesus Christ

There are answers to every question but we need to learn that many of
them are beyond our reach.


... not for those who have chosen to walk with Christ Jesus, Who is the
source of all knowledge and wisdom.


So why didnt he pass any of this infinite knowledge and wisdom to world when
he was supposedly here 2000 years ago?


HE did.

He did not utter one word of knowledge that was unknown at the time.


Actually, HE did.

Not one
scientific fact, not one idea of how to heal the sick, not one idea on how
to feed the world - nothing.


Actually, HE did.

He supposedly performed a few miracles that saved the odd individual or gave
5000 one meal but what would have been truly miraculous is if he had given
one clue as to the causes of the suffering he found.


Actually, HE gave more than clues.


False answers to these questions is called
theology ..


May you find the true answers through LORD Christ Jesus.


he didnt give much away the first time around


HE did and continues to do so for those with discerning hearts.

"It is done." -- LORD Jesus Christ

You will remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love, in Jesus'
most precious and holy name.

May GOD continue to draw you closer to HIM.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, cooking and nutrition that interest
those following this thread here during the next on-line chat
(03/16/06) from 6 to 7 pm EST:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/rgsp8

  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 14-03-2006, 12:38 AM posted to alt.christnet.christianlife,sci.med.cardiology,alt.atheism,rec.food.cooking
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 987
Default Faith in LORD Jesus Christ

Steve O wrote:
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message
...
sanity's IittIe helper wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
wrote:


Actually, Disciple "Doubting" Thomas was an atheist up until the very
last moment of seeing the risen LORD Jesus Christ.

You really don't know very much about your own bible, do you?


The Holy Bible is HIS Word and not mine.

Thomas, according to your book of fables, never doubted the existence of
God, or Jesus.


It is clear indicated that Thomas believed only what he saw.

What he did doubt was that his christ had risen from the dead.


Thomas doubted what he did not see.

It is written that when told about the risen Christ Jesus, he replied
that he would not believe it until he had placed his hand into HIS side
and finger through the holes of HIS hands.

This does not make him an atheist.


Thomas stopped being an atheist when he declared:

"My LORD and my GOD!" upon seeing the risen Christ Jesus.

Indeed, Jesus affirmed that it was the seeing that led to Thomas
believing by HIS saying, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet
believe."


It's your problem, go away and deal with it.


The LORD continues to guide me in everything I say, do, and write.


In that case your lord has a problem in understanding the simplest concepts
of the bible.


My LORD is the living Word of GOD.

You will be in my prayers, dear Steve whom I love, in Jesus' most
precious and holy name.

May GOD continue to draw you closer to HIM.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, cooking and nutrition that interest
those following this thread here during the next on-line chat
(03/16/06) from 6 to 7 pm EST:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/rgsp8

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Old 14-03-2006, 12:54 AM posted to alt.christnet.christianlife,sci.med.cardiology,alt.atheism,rec.food.cooking
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Default Faith in LORD Jesus Christ


"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message
oups.com...
Steve O wrote:
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message
...
sanity's IittIe helper wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
wrote:

Actually, Disciple "Doubting" Thomas was an atheist up until the very
last moment of seeing the risen LORD Jesus Christ.

You really don't know very much about your own bible, do you?


The Holy Bible is HIS Word and not mine.


Whatever.
Either way, you still don't know much about it.
Aren't you supposed to read it or something?



Thomas, according to your book of fables, never doubted the existence of
God, or Jesus.


It is clear indicated that Thomas believed only what he saw.


He was (allegedly) a follower, a disciple of Jesus, he never doubted the
existence of God.

What he did doubt was that his christ had risen from the dead.


Thomas doubted what he did not see.

It is written that when told about the risen Christ Jesus, he replied
that he would not believe it until he had placed his hand into HIS side
and finger through the holes of HIS hands.


Yea, verily so it is written.


This does not make him an atheist.


Thomas stopped being an atheist when he declared:


When did he start?
An atheist is someone who lacks a belief in a God or gods.
At which point did Thomas not believe in God?


"My LORD and my GOD!" upon seeing the risen Christ Jesus.


Look, you don't seem to get it do you?
You have the same lack of understanding of the bible as any theist.
(atheists understand it perfectly well - you are the guys who are in dispute
with each other over its meaning)
Thomas was a good jew - he followed jewish tradition and he believed in the
jewish God.
He desided to follow Jesus, and was told that Jesus was the Son of God and
would rise after his death.
Following the crucifixion - he refused to believe that Christ had risen from
the dead until he saw him with his own eyes.
This did not detract from his faith in God - it detracted from his faith in
Jesus.


Indeed, Jesus affirmed that it was the seeing that led to Thomas
believing by HIS saying, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet
believe."


Yeah, sure.



It's your problem, go away and deal with it.

The LORD continues to guide me in everything I say, do, and write.


In that case your lord has a problem in understanding the simplest
concepts
of the bible.


My LORD is the living Word of GOD.


Words aren't alive.
Even if they were, the words in yiour bible have been dead for nearly 2000
years.


You will be in my prayers, dear Steve whom I love, in Jesus' most
precious and holy name.


Would you mind if I told you to **** off with your prayers?


May GOD continue to draw you closer to HIM.


Would you mind if I told God to **** off too?


Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, cooking and nutrition that interest
those following this thread here during the next on-line chat
(03/16/06) from 6 to 7 pm EST:


This "glow" thing worries me a little.



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Old 15-03-2006, 01:24 PM posted to alt.christnet.christianlife,sci.med.cardiology,alt.atheism,rec.food.cooking
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Default Faith in LORD Jesus Christ

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
Steve O wrote:

"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message
groups.com...

Steve O wrote:

"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message
...

sanity's IittIe helper wrote:

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

wrote:

Actually, Disciple "Doubting" Thomas was an atheist up until the very
last moment of seeing the risen LORD Jesus Christ.


You really don't know very much about your own bible, do you?

The Holy Bible is HIS Word and not mine.


Whatever.



It would be your choice to disregard the truth.


So, Chung, when are you going to kick off the dust as a testimony to us?

snip anti-Biblical ravings

--

************************************************** **
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "Torture has never been a reliable means of *
* extracting information.... One wonders why it *
* is still practiced." --Jean-Luc Picard *
************************************************** **

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  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 15-03-2006, 03:23 PM posted to alt.christnet.christianlife,sci.med.cardiology,alt.atheism,rec.food.cooking
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Default Faith in LORD Jesus Christ

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
DanielSan wrote:

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

Steve O wrote:


"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message
legroups.com...


Steve O wrote:


"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message
...


sanity's IittIe helper wrote:


Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:


wrote:

Actually, Disciple "Doubting" Thomas was an atheist up until the very
last moment of seeing the risen LORD Jesus Christ.


You really don't know very much about your own bible, do you?

The Holy Bible is HIS Word and not mine.

Whatever.

It would be your choice to disregard the truth.


So, Chung, when are you going to kick off the dust as a testimony to us?



When the LORD calls me home to HIM.


That's not what the Bible commands you to do. Maybe you need to reread
Matthew.

snip

--

************************************************** **
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "Torture has never been a reliable means of *
* extracting information.... One wonders why it *
* is still practiced." --Jean-Luc Picard *
************************************************** **

--
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*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***


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