The closing of Second Avenue Deli got me thinking. The loss of Mom & Pop
type places (or them being driven out of business by huge conglomerates) is
just sad. When John and I travel we purposely seek out the small diners to
eat. We won't eat at Waffle House or IHOP. We try to avoid places like
Applebee's and Chili's. We want a place with some history, not a franchise.
The Mom & Pop's aren't always great but sometimes they are really wonderful!

Used to be, not far from here, an old hardware store where you could go and
buy what you needed without needing to hitch a ride on a forklift to get
from one end of the store to the other just to pick up some nails. These
little places have been run out of business by Home Depot and Lowes.

There's a huge benefit to the Mom & Pop type places. They get to know you.
They greet you by name when you walk in the door, rather than having a
blank-faced "greeter" (aka WalMart) handing you a shopping cart. And there
may only be one cash register, or perhaps two, but there aren't 12 checkout
lanes with only 2 open.

Earlier this morning I was down at the little store down the street. They
know me there. I bought a number of items including (OB Food: bacon, milk
and some rice). If I'd had 54 cents I could have given him exact change but
I didn't so I started to pull a larger bill out of my wallet. He said, "No,
no, this is fine. Have a good day!" When do you ever find them doing that
at some place run by a big chain or at a franchise? Never.

We are losing a lot as these wonderful little places start fading away. It
makes me sad.

Jill

Michael "Dog3" Lonergan wrote:
> "jmcquown" > looking for trouble wrote in
> :
>
>> The closing of Second Avenue Deli got me thinking. The loss of Mom &
>> Pop type places (or them being driven out of business by huge
>> conglomerates) is just sad.
>
> <snip for space>
>
>>
>> We are losing a lot as these wonderful little places start fading
>> away. It makes me sad.
>>
>> Jill
>
> We still have a few left but they are dwindling quickly. We have
> Biener's Hardware and they deliver and will hang around and give
> advice etc. on any given project you might be working on. We have
> Al's Diner, Chuy's (although the restaurant is so popular, he has
> expanded)
>
> Michael

Nothing wrong with a popular local place expanding. If they're that good,
more power to them It's when they start selling franchises they lose
control of how things are run.

Jill

"jmcquown" > wrote:
> Used to be, not far from here, an old hardware store where you could go
> and
> buy what you needed without needing to hitch a ride on a forklift to get
> from one end of the store to the other just to pick up some nails. These
> little places have been run out of business by Home Depot and Lowes.

I've essentially given up on Home Depot. The last straw was going in once
for furnace filters, 20 x 25, probably the most common size. None in stock.
I talked to a manager and asked him how in this modern world with
computerized inventory control, could one EVER run out of this size furnace
filter. It's not like it is something esoteric. Since I mentioned it being
something like a (food) staple, he took that up as an explanation. See, we
had a snow storm two days before. I couldn't believe it... like there is a
big run on furnace filters in advance of a snow storm, like there is on milk
and bread! This was far from the first time I've gone in looking for
something completely commonplace, and have them be out of stock.

Now I direct almost all of my hardware needs at a little neighborhood store
that occupies the first floor of a series of rowhouses in the city. Amazing
that this little store almost always has what I need, while the humongous
Home Depot, the size of a football field, often doesn't. The fact that Home
Depot carries rice cookers, vacuum cleaners, and coat hangers now probably
has something to do with it. They do everything, but nothing well.

On restaurants, I try to go to the small, locally owned ones. There is so
much more variety there, and I know the staff isn't reading from some script
dreamed up some thousands of miles away, replicated cookie cutter style
throughout the nation. One of the more recent chains to come into my area is
Carrabba's Italian Grill... is that a southern Italian accent I detect (in
their commercials)... Naples, maybe? No, southern as in Houston, Texas!

I guess I'm more than a bit jaded on this topic. About 30 years ago a read
an indepth article on the conversion of Hot Shoppes restaurants over to
Phineas Prime Rib, and the extreme measures (at least for the time period)
Marriot corporate went to in scripting the entire dining experience. It has
only gotten worse since then.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

"jmcquown" > wrote in message
...
> The closing of Second Avenue Deli got me thinking. The loss of Mom & Pop
> type places (or them being driven out of business by huge conglomerates)
> is
> just sad.

I'm so tired of hearing about small shops that are being run out of business
because of the big box stores or the chains. Customers are free to go
wherever they want to go, and if they *decide* to shop at the big stores,
that's their choice; big stores don't come into town and drive the store
owners out with guns to their heads. If the little store has what the
customers want, they'll survive; if not, customers will shop elsewhere, even
if that means road trips to Sam's or Costco or buying online.

There was a local restaurant here that went out of business and their quotes
in the newspaper had to do with how the new chain restaurants drove them out
of business. We didn't avoid that place because there were chains in town,
we didn't go there because the food was lousy and the service wasn't much
better. There are other small restaurants that are thriving.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for the mom 'n pop shops. Heck, I AM a mom 'n
pop shop (not food related). But no matter how cute or quaint or whatever
you may be, if you can't drag customers in, you aren't going to stay in
business. Part of that is knowing what the customers want and what they'll
pay enough for so you can stay in business.

I used to have a retail shop, and I got really tired of customers coming in
to tell me about the big sales elsewhere. When they needed advice or
service, they came to me first, but when they bought things, they went
online or they shopped for sales, and I couldn't blame them for wanting to
save money. Heck, if I could get something at retail that was cheaper than
what my distributors had, I'd shop there too.

So I wised up, realized I was never going to be able to compete on price for
retail goods, dumped the retail, and now I'm doing service only. And making
more money than I ever did (with less hassle) than when I was carrying all
that inventory. Two years later, I still get calls from people who crawl out
of the woodwork looking for my "store," and they tell me that they loved my
little store and it's too bad it's gone. But if they hadn't noticed I was
out of retail for 2 years, they certainly weren't keeping me in business.

D.Currie wrote:
> "jmcquown" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The closing of Second Avenue Deli got me thinking. The loss of Mom & Pop
> > type places (or them being driven out of business by huge conglomerates)
> > is
> > just sad.
>
> I'm so tired of hearing about small shops that are being run out of business
> because of the big box stores or the chains. Customers are free to go
> wherever they want to go, and if they *decide* to shop at the big stores,
> that's their choice; big stores don't come into town and drive the store
> owners out with guns to their heads. If the little store has what the
> customers want, they'll survive; if not, customers will shop elsewhere, even
> if that means road trips to Sam's or Costco or buying online.

The small local stores were responsible for their own demise; the big
box stores never would have been successful had the small stores
continued to give service, kept stock up to snuff, and held prices
below the greedy ******* only-show-in-town range as they once did. I
happen to like the Home Depots, Lowes, Ace, and others. There is still
a small hardware store in town here, but I don't go there nor do most
of the towns people, the old guy who owns it is a miserable prick.

And nowadays as much as possible I do my shopping on line... surfing
from store to store is far easier and costs a lot less than driving all
over town... and shopping on line it's extrememly rare I have to
settle, they almost always have exactly what I'm looking for, right
size, right color, and plenty of choices, often too many choices... and
the price shopping for the best deal is already done.

Sheldon.

Michael "Dog3" Lonergan wrote:

[Hardware stores]

> We still have a few left but they are dwindling quickly. We have
> Biener's Hardware and they deliver and will hang around and give
> advice etc. on any given project you might be working on.

Around north county (St. Louis) Handyman Hardware fills that niche.
They're going great guns even with new Lowes and Home Depots in the
area. It's the place to go if you need to talk to someone who knows
something.

> We have
> Al's Diner, Chuy's (although the restaurant is so popular, he has
> expanded) and a few small shops and restaurants I frequent.

I don't know about Chuy's, it seems as though the patronage was well
off the last few Saturdays we were there, and they aren't open at all
on Sunday anymore. Also dropped draft beer, which is darned annoying
when the bottles run $3+.



Brian

"Michael "Dog3" Lonergan" > wrote in message
...
>
> We still have a few left but they are dwindling quickly. We have Biener's
> Hardware and they deliver and will hang around and give advice etc. on any
> given project you might be working on. We have Al's Diner, Chuy's
> (although the restaurant is so popular, he has expanded)

Obviously not part of the Chuy's chain... http://www.chuys.com/, since those
locations are only in TX.

Mary

jmcquown)WROTE:
The closing of Second Avenue Deli got me thinking. The loss of Mom & Pop
type places (or them being driven out of business by huge conglomerates)
is just sad. When John and I travel we purposely seek out the small
diners to eat. We won't eat at Waffle House or IHOP. We try to avoid
places like Applebee's and Chili's. We want a place with some history,
not a franchise. The Mom & Pop's aren't always great but sometimes they
are really wonderful!
Used to be, not far from here, an old hardware store where you could go
and buy what you needed without needing to hitch a ride on a forklift to
get from one end of the store to the other just to pick up some nails.
These little places have been run out of business by Home Depot and
Lowes.
There's a huge benefit to the Mom & Pop type places. They get to know
you. They greet you by name when you walk in the door, rather than
having a blank-faced "greeter" (aka WalMart) handing you a shopping
cart. And there may only be one cash register, or perhaps two, but there
aren't 12 checkout lanes with only 2 open.
Earlier this morning I was down at the little store down the street.
They know me there. I bought a number of items including (OB Food:
bacon, milk and some rice). If I'd had 54 cents I could have given him
exact change but I didn't so I started to pull a larger bill out of my
wallet. He said, "No, no, this is fine. Have a good day!" When do you
ever find them doing that at some place run by a big chain or at a
franchise? Never.
We are losing a lot as these wonderful little places start fading away.
It makes me sad.
Jill--------------------------------------------------
RESPONSE: Well put and SO true.
A number of family owned business's in our area - metro Detroit- have or
are going to shut their doors forever that have been around for decades.
Only a few small hardware stores are left now, Damman's Hardware that
was always mentioned on Tim Allen's series Home Improvement are closing
@ the end of month.
Family owned restaurants that were around since I came to Michigan in
Dec. 1980 are dropping like flies also.
Meijers & Lowes are only 2 miles from me but are so huge my feet are
swollen time I check out plus using a cane doesn't help.
I rather drive out of my way further down the road to shop at a smaller
more friendly business but the way it looks that is coming to an end
fast.
PS- I don't do WalMart regardless.

Michael "Dog3" Lonergan wrote:
>
> --
> HUMPTY DUMPTY sat on a wall
> Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
> All the kings' horses
> And all the kings' men
> Had scrambled eggs
> For breakfast again

Wouldn't that be scrambled egg (singular)? <yolk, yolk, yolk....>

One time on Usenet, "Sheldon" > said:
>
> Michael "Dog3" Lonergan wrote:
> >
> > --
> > HUMPTY DUMPTY sat on a wall
> > Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
> > All the kings' horses
> > And all the kings' men
> > Had scrambled eggs
> > For breakfast again
>
> Wouldn't that be scrambled egg (singular)? <yolk, yolk, yolk....>

<groan!> Heh, good one, Sheldon... :-)


--
Jani in WA (S'mee)
~ mom, Trollop, novice cook ~

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:44:09 -0600, "jmcquown" > wrote:

>The closing of Second Avenue Deli got me thinking. The loss of Mom & Pop
>type places (or them being driven out of business by huge conglomerates) is
>just sad. When John and I travel we purposely seek out the small diners to
>eat. We won't eat at Waffle House or IHOP. We try to avoid places like
>Applebee's and Chili's. We want a place with some history, not a franchise.
>The Mom & Pop's aren't always great but sometimes they are really wonderful!

I know that folks like to wax lyrical about small restaurants
( usually in small towns )
I had some of the lousiest, overpriced, "questionable" meals
at "Mom & Pop" joints.
Overall... probably more "bummers" than "winners"

I hate to say it, but, give me a "chain store" ( even Mickey Dee's )
The food is predicatable, the prices predictable....
They have sturdy rules about cleanliness, food suppliers,
and food preperation...

If you've ever had food poisoning in the midst of a road trip....
you know what I'm talking about.


<rj>

D.Currie wrote:
> "jmcquown" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The closing of Second Avenue Deli got me thinking. The loss of Mom & Pop
>>type places (or them being driven out of business by huge conglomerates)
>>is
>>just sad.
>
>
> I'm so tired of hearing about small shops that are being run out of business
> because of the big box stores or the chains. Customers are free to go
> wherever they want to go, and if they *decide* to shop at the big stores,
> that's their choice; big stores don't come into town and drive the store
> owners out with guns to their heads.


True, they have much more powerfull weapons than that. Outfits with deep
pockets such as wally can set their prices wherever they want to
insure the competition is flattened.


If the little store has what the
> customers want, they'll survive; if not, customers will shop elsewhere, even
> if that means road trips to Sam's or Costco or buying online.
>
> There was a local restaurant here that went out of business and their quotes
> in the newspaper had to do with how the new chain restaurants drove them out
> of business. We didn't avoid that place because there were chains in town,
> we didn't go there because the food was lousy and the service wasn't much
> better. There are other small restaurants that are thriving.
>
> Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for the mom 'n pop shops. Heck, I AM a mom 'n
> pop shop (not food related). But no matter how cute or quaint or whatever
> you may be, if you can't drag customers in, you aren't going to stay in
> business. Part of that is knowing what the customers want and what they'll
> pay enough for so you can stay in business.
>
> I used to have a retail shop, and I got really tired of customers coming in
> to tell me about the big sales elsewhere. When they needed advice or
> service, they came to me first, but when they bought things, they went
> online or they shopped for sales, and I couldn't blame them for wanting to
> save money. Heck, if I could get something at retail that was cheaper than
> what my distributors had, I'd shop there too.
>
> So I wised up, realized I was never going to be able to compete on price for
> retail goods, dumped the retail, and now I'm doing service only. And making
> more money than I ever did (with less hassle) than when I was carrying all
> that inventory. Two years later, I still get calls from people who crawl out
> of the woodwork looking for my "store," and they tell me that they loved my
> little store and it's too bad it's gone. But if they hadn't noticed I was
> out of retail for 2 years, they certainly weren't keeping me in business.
>
>

<RJ> wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:44:09 -0600, "jmcquown"
> > wrote:
>
>> The closing of Second Avenue Deli got me thinking. The loss of Mom
>> & Pop type places (or them being driven out of business by huge
>> conglomerates) is just sad. When John and I travel we purposely
>> seek out the small diners to eat. The Mom & Pop's aren't
>> always great but sometimes they are really wonderful!
>
> I know that folks like to wax lyrical about small restaurants
> ( usually in small towns )
> I had some of the lousiest, overpriced, "questionable" meals
> at "Mom & Pop" joints.
> Overall... probably more "bummers" than "winners"
>
Sorry you've had that experience. John and I do quite a bit of travelling
for his art shows and we usually find the food is better and the price
cheaper than a meal at a fast food joint.

> I hate to say it, but, give me a "chain store" ( even Mickey Dee's )
> The food is predicatable, the prices predictable....
> They have sturdy rules about cleanliness, food suppliers,
> and food preperation...
>
To each his/her own. It's easy enough to get recommendations from locals,
which is what we do. They don't usually say "Oh, go to Bob's. The place is
filty but the food is good!"

> If you've ever had food poisoning in the midst of a road trip....
> you know what I'm talking about.
>
> <rj>

Has never happened (knock on wood) in the last couple of years of travelling
around. I *did* get food poisoning after eating at a Back Yard Burger
locally.

Jill

RJ wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:44:09 -0600, "jmcquown" >
wrote:
>
>>The closing of Second Avenue Deli got me thinking. The loss of Mom & Pop
>>type places (or them being driven out of business by huge conglomerates) is
>>just sad. When John and I travel we purposely seek out the small diners to
>>eat. We won't eat at Waffle House or IHOP. We try to avoid places like
>>Applebee's and Chili's. We want a place with some history, not a franchise.
>>The Mom & Pop's aren't always great but sometimes they are really wonderful!
>
> I know that folks like to wax lyrical about small restaurants
> ( usually in small towns )
> I had some of the lousiest, overpriced, "questionable" meals
> at "Mom & Pop" joints.
> Overall... probably more "bummers" than "winners"
>
> I hate to say it, but, give me a "chain store" ( even Mickey Dee's )
> The food is predicatable, the prices predictable....
> They have sturdy rules about cleanliness, food suppliers,
> and food preperation...
>
> If you've ever had food poisoning in the midst of a road trip....
> you know what I'm talking about.
>
>
> <rj>

I travel a lot and make it a habit to not eat at places that I can eat at when
I am home (with the exception of starbucks). I've found a lot of gems along
the way. and I've rarely gotten sick from what I've eaten regardless of chain
or mom/pop status.

Of course this isn't true of everyone, but my feeling is why would I go so far
to eat the same things I can eat at home.

FWIW, I have a coworker who keeps going to the same Applebees and keeps
getting sick. I keep telling him not to go, but he never listens.

--
..:Heather:.
www.velvet-c.com
Step off, beyotches, I'm the roflpimp!

"<RJ>" > wrote:
> I hate to say it, but, give me a "chain store" ( even Mickey Dee's )
> The food is predicatable, the prices predictable....
> They have sturdy rules about cleanliness, food suppliers,
> and food preperation...

One of the lessons I learned many years ago was a phenomenon I call "New
McDonald's Syndrome". It applies to so many new ventures when they come into
town.

They'll win you over when they are brand spanking new and the management and
staff actually cares. But slowly over time they start to fade, as the
management becomes complacent, and the staff gets disgruntled. McDonalds was
particularly prone to this phenomenon as a franchise operation. Once the
owner got his $100,000 investment out (it was that little years ago), he
would lose interest and the operation would slide... pretty fast in some
cases.

I've been to some pretty bad McDonald's in my lifetime. What I can say is
the menu is consistent. Beyond that, all bets are off. I've seen horrendous
food, filthy restrooms, surly service. It really is hit or miss.

At one time I was impressed by Walmart, but soon found out it really fell
into the same pattern as McDonalds. A new Walmart is great. But it doesn't
take all that long before they look like the dreaded K-Marts. Then the
newcomer Target came to town. Same thing. Beautiful clean store, fully
stocked shelves, helpful staff. In the end, they all seem the same. They all
go down the same path. Unfortunately by the time people figure this out, the
local stores have all been decimated. With the local stores there was some
hope of getting through to the owners and getting problems corrected. Fat
chance getting this corrected with a large out of town corporate owner. They
really don't give a damn.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

Michael "Dog3" Lonergan wrote:
> "MareCat" > looking for trouble wrote in
> :
>
>> "Michael "Dog3" Lonergan" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> We still have a few left but they are dwindling quickly. We have
>>> Biener's Hardware and they deliver and will hang around and give
>>> advice etc. on any given project you might be working on. We have
>>> Al's Diner, Chuy's (although the restaurant is so popular, he has
>>> expanded)
>>
>> Obviously not part of the Chuy's chain... http://www.chuys.com/,
>> since those locations are only in TX.
>>
>> Mary
>
> The full name of the restaurant is Chuy Arzolas. Sorry 'bout that.
> We just call it Chuy's. Brian is right about them. The yuppie types
> are taking the place over. So far the food has been decent but we'll
> see. Methinks the family is going for the bucks these days instead of
> authenticity.
>
> Michael

There is *one* chain we go to if we spot it; it's been consistent from Texas
to Kansas to Arkansas. Shogun. It's one of those Japanese 'cook it at your
table' places (or opt for sushi in the other room). The Japanese are
sticklers for detail. And I've never encountered an employee in any of them
who wasn't Japanese or of Japanese descent. They are always scrupulously
clean. The chef puts on a good show at the table as he cooks your food.
And the food never sucks!

Jill

wff_ng_7 wrote:
> "<RJ>" > wrote:
> > I hate to say it, but, give me a "chain store" ( even Mickey Dee's )
> > The food is predicatable, the prices predictable....
> > They have sturdy rules about cleanliness, food suppliers,
> > and food preperation...
>
> One of the lessons I learned many years ago was a phenomenon I call "New
> McDonald's Syndrome". It applies to so many new ventures when they come into
> town.
>
> They'll win you over when they are brand spanking new and the management and
> staff actually cares. But slowly over time they start to fade, as the
> management becomes complacent, and the staff gets disgruntled. McDonalds was
> particularly prone to this phenomenon as a franchise operation. Once the
> owner got his $100,000 investment out (it was that little years ago), he
> would lose interest and the operation would slide... pretty fast in some
> cases.
>
> I've been to some pretty bad McDonald's in my lifetime. What I can say is
> the menu is consistent. Beyond that, all bets are off. I've seen horrendous
> food, filthy restrooms, surly service. It really is hit or miss.
>
> At one time I was impressed by Walmart, but soon found out it really fell
> into the same pattern as McDonalds. A new Walmart is great. But it doesn't
> take all that long before they look like the dreaded K-Marts. Then the
> newcomer Target came to town. Same thing. Beautiful clean store, fully
> stocked shelves, helpful staff. In the end, they all seem the same. They all
> go down the same path. Unfortunately by the time people figure this out, the
> local stores have all been decimated. With the local stores there was some
> hope of getting through to the owners and getting problems corrected. Fat
> chance getting this corrected with a large out of town corporate owner. They
> really don't give a damn.

They really don't need to give a damn anymore (nor do the big box
stores need to hire give-a-damn help), not with more and more customers
buying on line. Just about every item Walmart and Target sells can be
purchased on line and with no hassles whatsoever... and the merchandise
comes directly from the warehouse, so everything you buy is brand
spanking new, nothing all picked over and put back in the box like at
the stores... and you get to choose from the full selection, don't have
to settle on green when your really wanted red. And more and more
shipping is free... with the price of petrol only the pinheads spend
the day driving all over creation on their fercocktah shopping sprees,
they burn up $30 worth of gas without a whimper to buy a $7 item, and
risk accidents too, but don't ask them to spend $7 for shipping right
to their door for a $30 item.

Michael "Dog3" Lonergan wrote:

> "MareCat" > looking for trouble wrote in
> :

> > Obviously not part of the Chuy's chain... http://www.chuys.com/,
> > since those locations are only in TX.
> >
> > Mary
>
> The full name of the restaurant is Chuy Arzolas. Sorry 'bout that.
> We just call it Chuy's. Brian is right about them. The yuppie types
> are taking the place over. So far the food has been decent but we'll
> see. Methinks the family is going for the bucks these days instead
> of authenticity.


I'm still a bit sad that they dropped my favorite dish some years back,
Chicken Mole. The fajitas are still good though, if order fajitas for
one around closing time, they'll load your plate with meat. Take home
the extra!



Brian

Sheldon wrote:
> wff_ng_7 wrote:
>> "<RJ>" > wrote:
>>> I hate to say it, but, give me a "chain store" ( even Mickey Dee's
>>> )
>>> The food is predicatable, the prices predictable....
>>> They have sturdy rules about cleanliness, food suppliers,
>>> and food preperation...
>>
>> One of the lessons I learned many years ago was a phenomenon I call
>> "New McDonald's Syndrome". It applies to so many new ventures when
>> they come into town.
>>
>> They'll win you over when they are brand spanking new and the
>> management and staff actually cares. But slowly over time they start
>> to fade, as the management becomes complacent, and the staff gets
>> disgruntled. McDonalds was particularly prone to this phenomenon as
>> a franchise operation. Once the owner got his $100,000 investment
>> out (it was that little years ago), he would lose interest and the
>> operation would slide... pretty fast in some cases.
>>
>> At one time I was impressed by Walmart, but soon found out it really
>> fell into the same pattern as McDonalds. A new Walmart is great. But
>> it doesn't take all that long before they look like the dreaded
>> K-Marts.
>
> They really don't need to give a damn anymore (nor do the big box
> stores need to hire give-a-damn help), not with more and more
> customers buying on line. Just about every item Walmart and Target
> sells can be purchased on line and with no hassles whatsoever... and
> the merchandise
> comes directly from the warehouse, so everything you buy is brand
> spanking new, nothing all picked over and put back in the box like at
> the stores... and you get to choose from the full selection, don't
> have
> to settle on green when your really wanted red. And more and more
> shipping is free... with the price of petrol only the pinheads spend
> the day driving all over creation on their fercocktah shopping sprees,
> they burn up $30 worth of gas without a whimper to buy a $7 item, and
> risk accidents too, but don't ask them to spend $7 for shipping right
> to their door for a $30 item.

A really saavy online shopper will Google for online coupon codes. You can
often find free shipping, or extra discounts. Ever notice when you're
checking out online there are often boxes for entering a coupon code and/or
shipping code? That's what those are. Google for the store/website name +
coupon codes and if the company happens to have some that are active you can
save even more. However, avoid at all cost those "savings" sites that want
you to JOIN or (god forbid!) PAY to find out about deals. They are
data-mining and you can find plenty of coupon codes without going through
the hassel.

Jill

"Michael "Dog3" Lonergan" > wrote in message
...
> "Sheldon" > looking for trouble wrote in
> oups.com:
>
>
>> I happen to like the Home Depots, Lowes, Ace, and others.
>
> You can have all the Home Depots you want. I'm ****ed when I pull in the
> parking lot because I know I'm going to encounter extremely uninformed
> staff, high prices and a long wait in the check out line. Never have I
> seen a more disorganized, mismanaged staff in any store I've shopped at,
> except Walmart.
>
>
> Michael

My Home Depot is the same way. The last time I was in there I stopped at
the service desk and asked where a product called "Dishwasher Magic" might
be located. With a wave of her hand in the general direction she said
"somewhere in chemicals." She didn't even give me an aisle number. It
wasn't there. I found what I was looking for in appliances.

Another time I went in and asked about a replacement skylight. The guy
actually told me I'd have to know the brand of skylight before they could
help me. I went to the real lumber yard and the guy said "yeah sure lady"
and gave me 3 different books to look at different styles of skylights from
several manufacturers.

One time I asked the lady working in the kitchen cabinet department where
the cabinet hardware was and she told me "somewhere in hardware." She
couldn't even give me the aisle number.

I hate going there. So unless it's something I absolutely can not find
anywhere else I don't.

At least in this Wal-Mart they'll give you an idea of which aisle they think
it should be located in.

Ms P

"Michael "Dog3" Lonergan" > wrote in message
...
> "Sheldon" > looking for trouble wrote in
> oups.com:
>
>
>> I happen to like the Home Depots, Lowes, Ace, and others.
>
> You can have all the Home Depots you want. I'm ****ed when I pull in the
> parking lot because I know I'm going to encounter extremely uninformed
> staff, high prices and a long wait in the check out line. Never have I
> seen a more disorganized, mismanaged staff in any store I've shopped at,
> except Walmart.

We almost always go to Lowes, rather than Home Depot, anymore. Better
service and (in many cases) better prices.

Mary

Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan wrote:

>
> Lowes is fine but they do not rent lawn equipment. I need to rent a power
> rake and an aerator about once a year and it is a nightmare at Home Depot.
> Last fall I reserved an aerator by phone and gave them my credit card to
> hold it. When I went to pick it up 20 minutes later, they had given the
> last one out. To make matters worse, they had charged my Home Depot card
> the deposit fee and it took 30 days to get it back. I will never go there
> again unless I absolutely can't find what I need anywhere else.

I am surprised to hear so many negative comments about Home Depot. My wife
hates it when I shop at box stores, but I usually find that Home Depot has
what I want / need, usually has a variety of items to choose from, has good
quality stuff, and a helpful staff. Maybe I have been lucky. I will always
give the small family run hardware stores the first shot at my business and
there are 3 along the way to Home Depot.


The all time worst hardware experience had to be the old Woolco, since taken
over by Walmart. I was doing a small plumbing job at home and Woolco was the
only place around that was open in the evening. I needed a bottle of propane
and a 90 degree 1/2 copper fitting. They didn't have either. They had lots of
copper pipe, solder, flux, a variety of low end fixtures, but no copper caps,
90 degree, 45 degree ot T fittings, and no propane. I had to wonder how they
could have a plumbing section without the most rudimentary pieces in stock.


If you want useless staff, try some of the Canadian Tire stores around here.
While some of the franchise owners run a good operation with suitable staff,
others are useless. I went into one in a nearby city when shopping for a .22
rifle. I asked the lady at the sporting goods counter to show me the semi
automatic .22 rifle and she handed me a pump action shotgun. She didn't know
the difference.

"Michael "Dog3" Lonergan" > wrote in message
...
> "MareCat" > looking for trouble wrote in
> :
>>
>> We almost always go to Lowes, rather than Home Depot, anymore. Better
>> service and (in many cases) better prices.
>>
>> Mary
>
> Lowes is fine but they do not rent lawn equipment. I need to rent a power
> rake and an aerator about once a year and it is a nightmare at Home Depot.
> Last fall I reserved an aerator by phone and gave them my credit card to
> hold it. When I went to pick it up 20 minutes later, they had given the
> last one out. To make matters worse, they had charged my Home Depot card
> the deposit fee and it took 30 days to get it back. I will never go there
> again unless I absolutely can't find what I need anywhere else.

That sucks. I would never go back to Home Depot again, either.

Mary

In article >,
"D.Currie" > wrote:

> I'm so tired of hearing about small shops that are being run out of business
> because of the big box stores or the chains. Customers are free to go
> wherever they want to go, and if they *decide* to shop at the big stores,
> that's their choice; big stores don't come into town and drive the store
> owners out with guns to their heads. If the little store has what the
> customers want, they'll survive; if not, customers will shop elsewhere, even
> if that means road trips to Sam's or Costco or buying online.

That is true, but big chains have benefits mom 'n' pop stores can't
touch, like demanding special versions of products or volume
discounts; dealing directly with manufacturers and dictating the
terms of payment or even holding inventory; and the deeper pockets
it takes to lease space in more-expensive neighborhoods.

One local shopping district within city limits here has seen the
store mix change from almost-exclusively independents to large
chains (though, I'm thankful, no big boxes). Small-store owners
can't afford the escalating rents. Trouble is, if all you can find
here is the same Chicos and CVSs and Starbucks and Chipotles and Ace
Hardwares you can find anywhere else, why brave parking downtown
(parallel parking already gives the suburbanites the willies)? So,
in the long run, they'll kill this shopping district, anyway.

Then there's the matter of _trying_ to shop at a mom 'n' pop shop. I
needed a new cartridge for my inkjet printer. I tried to buy it at
an independent office-supply store. No dice. There are only two here
in a city of 350,000 people, and getting to them and finding the
cartridge I needed was futile. Ended up at Target, which had it.
*sigh*

sd

"me" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "D.Currie" > wrote:
>
>> I'm so tired of hearing about small shops that are being run out of
>> business
>> because of the big box stores or the chains. Customers are free to go
>> wherever they want to go, and if they *decide* to shop at the big stores,
>> that's their choice; big stores don't come into town and drive the store
>> owners out with guns to their heads. If the little store has what the
>> customers want, they'll survive; if not, customers will shop elsewhere,
>> even
>> if that means road trips to Sam's or Costco or buying online.
>
> That is true, but big chains have benefits mom 'n' pop stores can't
> touch, like demanding special versions of products or volume
> discounts; dealing directly with manufacturers and dictating the
> terms of payment or even holding inventory; and the deeper pockets
> it takes to lease space in more-expensive neighborhoods.
>
> One local shopping district within city limits here has seen the
> store mix change from almost-exclusively independents to large
> chains (though, I'm thankful, no big boxes). Small-store owners
> can't afford the escalating rents. Trouble is, if all you can find
> here is the same Chicos and CVSs and Starbucks and Chipotles and Ace
> Hardwares you can find anywhere else, why brave parking downtown
> (parallel parking already gives the suburbanites the willies)? So,
> in the long run, they'll kill this shopping district, anyway.
>
> Then there's the matter of _trying_ to shop at a mom 'n' pop shop. I
> needed a new cartridge for my inkjet printer. I tried to buy it at
> an independent office-supply store. No dice. There are only two here
> in a city of 350,000 people, and getting to them and finding the
> cartridge I needed was futile. Ended up at Target, which had it.
> *sigh*
>
> sd

Re-reading my response, I see that it became a RANT.

I do a lot of internet shopping. I don't know how this impacts on the
ruin-ers of 'mom & pops' and the chains. But when I want to purchase
something and it is not available at the few applicable stores, I don't run
all over looking for it, I'll sit in my easy chair and let UPS or USPS bring
it. Yes, I know, S&H, but I'm getting to the point where I'm beginning to
accept that as opposed to $$ for gas prices. When I shop now and go a
distance, it is like an exploration/expedition just to see what new products
in any line is available, then I can price and compare online. I don't need
to accept anybody's price but mine.

We even used Priceline for staying at a hotel in November we could never had
afforded. Yes, online shopping for us is the way to go. I don't live in a
large metropolitan area, or I would order groceries online. When I lived in
San Francisco, there was a grocery store that would deliver for $5; just a
telephone call away. I know one could hire 'shoppers' but then I wouldn't
want to put up with them at any price. Even free!

Convenience in shopping to me is the order of the day. I'm sick of going in
chain stores and finding a lot of inferior crap. They're doing it now in the
linens/kitchen stores. Follow-the-leader. Can you imagine taking an apron
back because the ring-fastener is so freaking inferior that you cut your
finger on it. When you return it, you find that all of them are the same.

What is this world coming to? Tee Hee.
Dee Dee

On Sun 08 Jan 2006 09:27:39a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Dee
Randall?

>
> "me" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> "D.Currie" > wrote:
>>
>>> I'm so tired of hearing about small shops that are being run out of
>>> business because of the big box stores or the chains. Customers are
>>> free to go wherever they want to go, and if they *decide* to shop at
>>> the big stores, that's their choice; big stores don't come into town
>>> and drive the store owners out with guns to their heads. If the little
>>> store has what the customers want, they'll survive; if not, customers
>>> will shop elsewhere, even if that means road trips to Sam's or Costco
>>> or buying online.
>>
>> That is true, but big chains have benefits mom 'n' pop stores can't
>> touch, like demanding special versions of products or volume
>> discounts; dealing directly with manufacturers and dictating the
>> terms of payment or even holding inventory; and the deeper pockets
>> it takes to lease space in more-expensive neighborhoods.
>>
>> One local shopping district within city limits here has seen the
>> store mix change from almost-exclusively independents to large
>> chains (though, I'm thankful, no big boxes). Small-store owners
>> can't afford the escalating rents. Trouble is, if all you can find
>> here is the same Chicos and CVSs and Starbucks and Chipotles and Ace
>> Hardwares you can find anywhere else, why brave parking downtown
>> (parallel parking already gives the suburbanites the willies)? So, in
>> the long run, they'll kill this shopping district, anyway.
>>
>> Then there's the matter of _trying_ to shop at a mom 'n' pop shop. I
>> needed a new cartridge for my inkjet printer. I tried to buy it at
>> an independent office-supply store. No dice. There are only two here
>> in a city of 350,000 people, and getting to them and finding the
>> cartridge I needed was futile. Ended up at Target, which had it.
>> *sigh*
>>
>> sd
>
> Re-reading my response, I see that it became a RANT.
>
> I do a lot of internet shopping. I don't know how this impacts on the
> ruin-ers of 'mom & pops' and the chains. But when I want to purchase
> something and it is not available at the few applicable stores, I don't
> run all over looking for it, I'll sit in my easy chair and let UPS or
> USPS bring it. Yes, I know, S&H, but I'm getting to the point where I'm
> beginning to accept that as opposed to $$ for gas prices. When I shop
> now and go a distance, it is like an exploration/expedition just to see
> what new products in any line is available, then I can price and compare
> online. I don't need to accept anybody's price but mine.
>
> We even used Priceline for staying at a hotel in November we could never
> had afforded. Yes, online shopping for us is the way to go. I don't
> live in a large metropolitan area, or I would order groceries online.
> When I lived in San Francisco, there was a grocery store that would
> deliver for $5; just a telephone call away. I know one could hire
> 'shoppers' but then I wouldn't want to put up with them at any price.
> Even free!
>
> Convenience in shopping to me is the order of the day. I'm sick of
> going in chain stores and finding a lot of inferior crap. They're doing
> it now in the linens/kitchen stores. Follow-the-leader. Can you imagine
> taking an apron back because the ring-fastener is so freaking inferior
> that you cut your finger on it. When you return it, you find that all
> of them are the same.
>
> What is this world coming to? Tee Hee.
> Dee Dee

So, it's all about you, isn't it, Dee? And here, I thought it was all
about me. <g>

My sentiments exactly.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
__________________________________________________ ________________
And if we enter a room full of manure, may we believe in the pony.

"me" > wrote in message news:sd55117-
>
> That is true, but big chains have benefits mom 'n' pop stores can't
> touch, like demanding special versions of products or volume
> discounts; dealing directly with manufacturers and dictating the
> terms of payment or even holding inventory; and the deeper pockets
> it takes to lease space in more-expensive neighborhoods.

Times are changing though. Twenty years ago the last place I'd buy an
appliance was here in town. The two stores were high priced and did not
much give a damn about being competitive. If you did not buy from then,
they were borderline rude if you wanted a part and would not do service
calls. Both have since been sold. Both of the new store owners now belong
to buyers co-operatives that allow them to sell at very competitive prices
to the big discounters and they offer superior service and delivery. I'd
not go anyplace else now. Adapt or die.

"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun 08 Jan 2006 09:27:39a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Dee
> Randall?
>
>>
>> "me" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> In article >,
>>> "D.Currie" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm so tired of hearing about small shops that are being run out of
>>>> business because of the big box stores or the chains. Customers are
>>>> free to go wherever they want to go, and if they *decide* to shop at
>>>> the big stores, that's their choice; big stores don't come into town
>>>> and drive the store owners out with guns to their heads. If the little
>>>> store has what the customers want, they'll survive; if not, customers
>>>> will shop elsewhere, even if that means road trips to Sam's or Costco
>>>> or buying online.
>>>
>>> That is true, but big chains have benefits mom 'n' pop stores can't
>>> touch, like demanding special versions of products or volume
>>> discounts; dealing directly with manufacturers and dictating the
>>> terms of payment or even holding inventory; and the deeper pockets
>>> it takes to lease space in more-expensive neighborhoods.
>>>
>>> One local shopping district within city limits here has seen the
>>> store mix change from almost-exclusively independents to large
>>> chains (though, I'm thankful, no big boxes). Small-store owners
>>> can't afford the escalating rents. Trouble is, if all you can find
>>> here is the same Chicos and CVSs and Starbucks and Chipotles and Ace
>>> Hardwares you can find anywhere else, why brave parking downtown
>>> (parallel parking already gives the suburbanites the willies)? So, in
>>> the long run, they'll kill this shopping district, anyway.
>>>
>>> Then there's the matter of _trying_ to shop at a mom 'n' pop shop. I
>>> needed a new cartridge for my inkjet printer. I tried to buy it at
>>> an independent office-supply store. No dice. There are only two here
>>> in a city of 350,000 people, and getting to them and finding the
>>> cartridge I needed was futile. Ended up at Target, which had it.
>>> *sigh*
>>>
>>> sd
>>
>> Re-reading my response, I see that it became a RANT.
>>
>> I do a lot of internet shopping. I don't know how this impacts on the
>> ruin-ers of 'mom & pops' and the chains. But when I want to purchase
>> something and it is not available at the few applicable stores, I don't
>> run all over looking for it, I'll sit in my easy chair and let UPS or
>> USPS bring it. Yes, I know, S&H, but I'm getting to the point where I'm
>> beginning to accept that as opposed to $$ for gas prices. When I shop
>> now and go a distance, it is like an exploration/expedition just to see
>> what new products in any line is available, then I can price and compare
>> online. I don't need to accept anybody's price but mine.
>>
>> We even used Priceline for staying at a hotel in November we could never
>> had afforded. Yes, online shopping for us is the way to go. I don't
>> live in a large metropolitan area, or I would order groceries online.
>> When I lived in San Francisco, there was a grocery store that would
>> deliver for $5; just a telephone call away. I know one could hire
>> 'shoppers' but then I wouldn't want to put up with them at any price.
>> Even free!
>>
>> Convenience in shopping to me is the order of the day. I'm sick of
>> going in chain stores and finding a lot of inferior crap. They're doing
>> it now in the linens/kitchen stores. Follow-the-leader. Can you imagine
>> taking an apron back because the ring-fastener is so freaking inferior
>> that you cut your finger on it. When you return it, you find that all
>> of them are the same.
>>
>> What is this world coming to? Tee Hee.
>> Dee Dee
>
> So, it's all about you, isn't it, Dee? And here, I thought it was all
> about me. <g>
>
> My sentiments exactly.
>
> --
> Wayne Boatwright *¿*

I heard a similar line last night on a show "Why is everything always about
you?" It was sooo funny. Surely there is a bit of truth in all of these
cliches. People do expect more than they really are reasonably getting in
many cases. Could be the boomers striking out and perhaps feeling a little
guilty about it? Who knows; but it fits in a lot of cases.
Dee Dee

"Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "me" > wrote in message news:sd55117-
>>
>> That is true, but big chains have benefits mom 'n' pop stores can't
>> touch, like demanding special versions of products or volume
>> discounts; dealing directly with manufacturers and dictating the
>> terms of payment or even holding inventory; and the deeper pockets
>> it takes to lease space in more-expensive neighborhoods.
>
> Times are changing though. Twenty years ago the last place I'd buy an
> appliance was here in town. The two stores were high priced and did not
> much give a damn about being competitive. If you did not buy from then,
> they were borderline rude if you wanted a part and would not do service
> calls. Both have since been sold. Both of the new store owners now
> belong to buyers co-operatives that allow them to sell at very competitive
> prices to the big discounters and they offer superior service and
> delivery. I'd not go anyplace else now. Adapt or die.
And then there are other people who take pride in buying locally, no matter
what the price because they support the locals. They will buy and buy and
buy and get short-changed for their product, and will frequent no other
businesses. A lot of the people I've talked to can afford to do this. But
I believe in competition and preserving some of my bank balance.

I think Ace Hardware is one of the hardwares that are owned locally that IMO
have done an admirable job of keeping up with competition. We shop Ace, but
some might consider it equal to Walmart. One thing that makes me believe it
is not THAT similar to Walmart is that I ordered a Cuisinart tea kettle from
them. When I told them that I could've bought it from Ace online for $2
less, but that didn't include the shipping which brought the price back up
again), they took $2 off the price. Dropped my jaw!
Dee Dee

On Sun 08 Jan 2006 11:54:33a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Dee
Randall?

>
> "Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun 08 Jan 2006 09:27:39a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Dee
>> Randall?
>>

>> So, it's all about you, isn't it, Dee? And here, I thought it was all
>> about me. <g>
>>
>> My sentiments exactly.
>>
>> --
>> Wayne Boatwright *¿*
>
> I heard a similar line last night on a show "Why is everything always
> about you?" It was sooo funny. Surely there is a bit of truth in all
> of these cliches. People do expect more than they really are reasonably
> getting in many cases. Could be the boomers striking out and perhaps
> feeling a little guilty about it? Who knows; but it fits in a lot of
> cases. Dee Dee

Good theory, Dee. I think you're right. Yes, it does fit in a lot of
cases.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
__________________________________________________ ________________
And if we enter a room full of manure, may we believe in the pony.