Today, I went to our local ecological (aka organic) butcher and bought a
whole roasting chicken (at roughly 5.5 pounds, what I'd refer to as a
"proper" roasting fowl ). This is a relatively rare occasion for me -- I
usually buy chicken at the local small stupidmarket, since it's close and
convenient. I've noticed recently, however, that the chicken from the
market is declining in quality and I have the distinct impression, based on
the amount of unaccountable liquid in the roasting/frying pan, that the
meat's being "plumped" at the factory (not a situation I'm happy with and I
can't find anything about it on the package -- clearly, a letter to someone
is in order).

Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in the
world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?

And should I mention the DK-raised, organic turkey (whole), 6-8 kg, which I
can order at a cost of 130DKK per kilo? I think we're not having turkey
(again!) this year.

-j

On Wed 09 Nov 2005 01:19:43p, jacqui{JB} wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> Today, I went to our local ecological (aka organic) butcher and bought a
> whole roasting chicken (at roughly 5.5 pounds, what I'd refer to as a
> "proper" roasting fowl ). This is a relatively rare occasion for me
> -- I usually buy chicken at the local small stupidmarket, since it's
> close and convenient. I've noticed recently, however, that the chicken
> from the market is declining in quality and I have the distinct
> impression, based on the amount of unaccountable liquid in the
> roasting/frying pan, that the meat's being "plumped" at the factory (not
> a situation I'm happy with and I can't find anything about it on the
> package -- clearly, a letter to someone is in order).
>
> Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
> 30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in
> the world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're
> you folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these
> days?
>
> And should I mention the DK-raised, organic turkey (whole), 6-8 kg,
> which I can order at a cost of 130DKK per kilo? I think we're not
> having turkey (again!) this year.
>
> -j

A few weeks ago I bought a "free range" (not necessarily organic) roasting
chicken at the butcher shop. It weighed between 5.5 and 6 pounds and cost
less than 8.00USD.



--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

jacqui{JB} wrote:

> Today, I went to our local ecological (aka organic) butcher and bought a
> whole roasting chicken (at roughly 5.5 pounds, what I'd refer to as a
> "proper" roasting fowl ). This is a relatively rare occasion for me -- I
> usually buy chicken at the local small stupidmarket, since it's close and

Ok, dumb question by why do folks refer to grocery stores as
*stupidmarket*? I haven't been able to figure it out. What little
groceries I need, I buy from a m&p (mom & pop) owned small grocery store
or a franchise owned larger grocery store in town. It is a real treat
for me to shop at a really huge grocer store in the city and I really
enjoy browsing through US grocery stores like Farmer Jack. I just don't
get where stupidmarket comes from.

> convenient. I've noticed recently, however, that the chicken from the
> market is declining in quality and I have the distinct impression, based on
> the amount of unaccountable liquid in the roasting/frying pan, that the
> meat's being "plumped" at the factory (not a situation I'm happy with and I
> can't find anything about it on the package -- clearly, a letter to someone
> is in order).
>
> Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
> 30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in the
> world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
> folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?

My word that is expensive! I buy free range chickens cleaned and ready
to roast for $5 CDN. The same size grain fed chickens in the grocery
stores are about $8 CDN. I did see organic chicken in one US grocery
store my last trip over. IIRC it was in the 6 lb range for $8 US.
>
> And should I mention the DK-raised, organic turkey (whole), 6-8 kg, which I
> can order at a cost of 130DKK per kilo? I think we're not having turkey
> (again!) this year.

Turkeys are expensive here at somewhere around $2/lb CDN for frozen and
a little more for fresh and these aren't organic either. Some of the US
stores put frozen turkeys on sale for 29 cents US when it get near the
US Thanksgiving providing you buy $20 worth of groceries. Some US
stores also put turkeys on for buy one get one free but I haven't seen
any of those this year. I'm able to take advantage of these types of
offers so can stock up on turkey and if I'm lucky I can get great deals
on lamb another expensive meat here. I haven't seen organic turkeys
here but I'll bet the larger centres have them and they are likely very
expensive.
>
> -j

Denmark sounds very, very expensive! Are the wages higher? What are
other food prices like?
>
>

"~patches~" > wrote in message
...
> jacqui{JB} wrote:
>
> > Today, I went to our local ecological (aka organic) butcher and bought a
> > whole roasting chicken (at roughly 5.5 pounds, what I'd refer to as a
> > "proper" roasting fowl ). This is a relatively rare occasion for
me -- I
> > usually buy chicken at the local small stupidmarket, since it's close
and
>
> Ok, dumb question by why do folks refer to grocery stores as
> *stupidmarket*? I haven't been able to figure it out. What little
> groceries I need, I buy from a m&p (mom & pop) owned small grocery store
> or a franchise owned larger grocery store in town. It is a real treat
> for me to shop at a really huge grocer store in the city and I really
> enjoy browsing through US grocery stores like Farmer Jack. I just don't
> get where stupidmarket comes from.
>
> > convenient. I've noticed recently, however, that the chicken from the
> > market is declining in quality and I have the distinct impression, based
on
> > the amount of unaccountable liquid in the roasting/frying pan, that the
> > meat's being "plumped" at the factory (not a situation I'm happy with
and I
> > can't find anything about it on the package -- clearly, a letter to
someone
> > is in order).
> >
> > Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
> > 30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in
the
> > world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
> > folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?
>
> My word that is expensive! I buy free range chickens cleaned and ready
> to roast for $5 CDN. The same size grain fed chickens in the grocery
> stores are about $8 CDN. I did see organic chicken in one US grocery
> store my last trip over. IIRC it was in the 6 lb range for $8 US.

At Field Organics, a stall at my local farmer's market (Waterloo, ON) a
small - like 3-4 pound chicken will cost in the mid $20 range CDN - I kid
you not. I don't buy them, I go a couple stalls down and get the free range
ones.

A.

jacqui{JB} wrote:

> Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
> 30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in the
> world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
> folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?

Bought one from a farmer nearby - 4.5 pounds for $5.

Pastorio

jacqui{JB} wrote:

> Today, I went to our local ecological (aka organic) butcher and bought a
> whole roasting chicken (at roughly 5.5 pounds, what I'd refer to as a
> "proper" roasting fowl ). This is a relatively rare occasion for me -- I
> usually buy chicken at the local small stupidmarket, since it's close and
> convenient. I've noticed recently, however, that the chicken from the
> market is declining in quality and I have the distinct impression, based on
> the amount of unaccountable liquid in the roasting/frying pan, that the
> meat's being "plumped" at the factory (not a situation I'm happy with and I
> can't find anything about it on the package -- clearly, a letter to someone
> is in order).
>
> Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
> 30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in the
> world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
> folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?
>
> And should I mention the DK-raised, organic turkey (whole), 6-8 kg, which I
> can order at a cost of 130DKK per kilo? I think we're not having turkey
> (again!) this year.
>

There is a farm nearby where I can get chickens that size for about $10-12 Cdn.

Yes, Copenhagen is expensive. I was astounded at the price of things there.
Lovely place, but terribly expensive.

jacqui{JB} wrote:
> Today, I went to our local ecological (aka organic) butcher and bought a
> whole roasting chicken (at roughly 5.5 pounds, what I'd refer to as a
> "proper" roasting fowl ). This is a relatively rare occasion for me -- I
> usually buy chicken at the local small stupidmarket, since it's close and
> convenient. I've noticed recently, however, that the chicken from the
> market is declining in quality and I have the distinct impression, based on
> the amount of unaccountable liquid in the roasting/frying pan, that the
> meat's being "plumped" at the factory (not a situation I'm happy with and I
> can't find anything about it on the package -- clearly, a letter to someone
> is in order).
>
> Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
> 30.70USD.

Sheesh... if I'm gonna slap down $30 for an organic boid it had better
be an ORGASMIC chick... and I mean that literally... adn when they pass
the breast meatt I want mine with nipples! heh

What is organic anyway... really no such thing... I'd rather kosher
than organic.

Sheldon Perdueberg

"jacqui{JB}" > wrote in message
. dk...
> Today, I went to our local ecological (aka organic) butcher and bought a
> whole roasting chicken (at roughly 5.5 pounds, what I'd refer to as a
> "proper" roasting fowl ). This is a relatively rare occasion for me --
> I
> usually buy chicken at the local small stupidmarket, since it's close and
> convenient. I've noticed recently, however, that the chicken from the
> market is declining in quality and I have the distinct impression, based
> on
> the amount of unaccountable liquid in the roasting/frying pan, that the
> meat's being "plumped" at the factory (not a situation I'm happy with and
> I
> can't find anything about it on the package -- clearly, a letter to
> someone
> is in order).
>
> Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
> 30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in the
> world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
> folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?
>
> And should I mention the DK-raised, organic turkey (whole), 6-8 kg, which
> I
> can order at a cost of 130DKK per kilo? I think we're not having turkey
> (again!) this year.
>
> -j

I bought a 5.5 lb chicken today at www.westsidemarket.com, organic. $8 and
I thought that was a little high.

"Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
...
> jacqui{JB} wrote:
>
>> Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
>> 30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in the
>> world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
>> folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?
>
> Bought one from a farmer nearby - 4.5 pounds for $5.

So, by the time the farmer had someone package it and a market
stock it and sell it, they take their cut, on a grander scale I'd think
all that might add a couple three bucks.

nancy

"jacqui{JB}" > wrote in message
. dk...
> Today, I went to our local ecological (aka organic) butcher and bought a
> whole roasting chicken (at roughly 5.5 pounds, what I'd refer to as a
> "proper" roasting fowl ). This is a relatively rare occasion for me --
> I
> usually buy chicken at the local small stupidmarket, since it's close and
> convenient. I've noticed recently, however, that the chicken from the
> market is declining in quality and I have the distinct impression, based
> on
> the amount of unaccountable liquid in the roasting/frying pan, that the
> meat's being "plumped" at the factory (not a situation I'm happy with and
> I
> can't find anything about it on the package -- clearly, a letter to
> someone
> is in order).
>
> Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
> 30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in the
> world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
> folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?
>
> And should I mention the DK-raised, organic turkey (whole), 6-8 kg, which
> I
> can order at a cost of 130DKK per kilo? I think we're not having turkey
> (again!) this year.
>

That *is* a lot. We pay about US$3.50 a pount for organic chickens here
which would make that bird about US$20. Of course, being a European bird it
probably spoke several languages!


--
Peter Aitken

Nancy Young wrote:
>
> "Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
> ...
> > jacqui{JB} wrote:
> >
> >> Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
> >> 30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in the
> >> world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
> >> folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?
> >
> > Bought one from a farmer nearby - 4.5 pounds for $5.
>
> So, by the time the farmer had someone package it and a market
> stock it and sell it, they take their cut, on a grander scale I'd think
> all that might add a couple three bucks.
>
> nancy

Nope, the farmer sells it for $5 at their stand, but only gets perhaps
$3 for it wholesale if they're lucky. If the farmers could sell
wholesale for the same prices they can get at their farm stand then the
farmers would be rich and not the packers.

Pete C.

Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> We pay about US$3.50 a pount for organic chickens here

What's with yoose peeps, yoose spend a small ransom on a so-called
organic birds (no such animal) and then brine em, marinate em, dry rub
em with hook n' ladder scotch bonnet til mumified, douche em in reduced
schlitz, shove two lemons up their asses and a lime down their throats,
and eat em slathered with ketchup... and then have the unmitigated
gall to actually claim yoose can taste the difference... yoose LIE!

> Of course, being a European bird it probably spoke several languages!

And unbathed.

WTF is wrong with yoose peeps, sheesh!

Yo, I got this organic bridge in Brooklyn.

Anyhoo, the way yoose cheap bastids bitch about the price of everything
I don't believe any of yoose ever bought any organic chicken... yoose
all eat the same on-sale 79¢/lb oven roasters I eat... of course on
Usenet we can all be sucking down $200/oz caviar and washing it down
with equally priced Dom, every day... and can claim how we did it, how
*WE* did it, at *my* dozens of Michelin 5 Star restaurants. ****ing
organic Kraft mac n' cheese munching LIARS...WHEE ! ! ! WHEEEEE ! ! !
WHEEEEEEEEEEEE ! ! !

****ing MEGALOMANIAC SON OF A WOP BITCH ! ! ! <G>

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. . . .

Sheldon

Anita Amaro wrote:

> "~patches~" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>jacqui{JB} wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Today, I went to our local ecological (aka organic) butcher and bought a
>>>whole roasting chicken (at roughly 5.5 pounds, what I'd refer to as a
>>>"proper" roasting fowl ). This is a relatively rare occasion for
>
> me -- I
>
>>>usually buy chicken at the local small stupidmarket, since it's close
>
> and
>
>>Ok, dumb question by why do folks refer to grocery stores as
>>*stupidmarket*? I haven't been able to figure it out. What little
>>groceries I need, I buy from a m&p (mom & pop) owned small grocery store
>>or a franchise owned larger grocery store in town. It is a real treat
>>for me to shop at a really huge grocer store in the city and I really
>>enjoy browsing through US grocery stores like Farmer Jack. I just don't
>>get where stupidmarket comes from.
>>
>>
>>>convenient. I've noticed recently, however, that the chicken from the
>>>market is declining in quality and I have the distinct impression, based
>
> on
>
>>>the amount of unaccountable liquid in the roasting/frying pan, that the
>>>meat's being "plumped" at the factory (not a situation I'm happy with
>
> and I
>
>>>can't find anything about it on the package -- clearly, a letter to
>
> someone
>
>>>is in order).
>>>
>>>Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
>>>30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in
>
> the
>
>>>world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
>>>folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?
>>
>>My word that is expensive! I buy free range chickens cleaned and ready
>>to roast for $5 CDN. The same size grain fed chickens in the grocery
>>stores are about $8 CDN. I did see organic chicken in one US grocery
>>store my last trip over. IIRC it was in the 6 lb range for $8 US.
>
>
> At Field Organics, a stall at my local farmer's market (Waterloo, ON) a
> small - like 3-4 pound chicken will cost in the mid $20 range CDN - I kid
> you not. I don't buy them, I go a couple stalls down and get the free range
> ones.
>
> A.
>
>
We've been to the Waterloo and Kitchener farmer's markets quite a few
times. I love going to both! That's an awful price for a 3-4 lb
chicken. That sure wouldn't go far with our size family. I'm so glad I
can get free range chickens for the price I can otherwise I'd be forced
into buying grain fed chicken from the grocery store.

Nancy Young wrote:

> "Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>jacqui{JB} wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
>>>30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in the
>>>world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
>>>folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?
>>
>>Bought one from a farmer nearby - 4.5 pounds for $5.
>
>
> So, by the time the farmer had someone package it and a market
> stock it and sell it, they take their cut, on a grander scale I'd think
> all that might add a couple three bucks.
>
> nancy
>
>
You're forgetting a whole lot of expenses at getting that chicken to the
grocery store - cost of vehicle for transportation and all associated
expenses, hired labour, etc. If you buy a chicken directly from the
farmer right at his farm he doesn't have any of the other overhead.

"~patches~" > wrote

> Nancy Young wrote:

>> So, by the time the farmer had someone package it and a market
>> stock it and sell it, they take their cut, on a grander scale I'd think
>> all that might add a couple three bucks.

> You're forgetting a whole lot of expenses at getting that chicken to the
> grocery store - cost of vehicle for transportation and all associated
> expenses, hired labour, etc. If you buy a chicken directly from the
> farmer right at his farm he doesn't have any of the other overhead.

Yeah, I just put a couple down, I was pointing out that buying from a
farm isn't really comparable to buying from a store. No chicken farms
around here, I imagine there were a lot of them at one time as NJ was
the egg basket of america or something.

I bought a Bell & Evan's chicken, 5 pounds something, upwards of$12.
I don't see mention of them being organic, but they are much nicer than the
usual supermarket bird:

http://www.bellandevans.com/whoweare.cfm

nancy

Sheldon wrote:
>
> Peter Aitken wrote:
> >
> > We pay about US$3.50 a pount for organic chickens here
>
> What's with yoose peeps, yoose spend a small ransom on a so-called
> organic birds (no such animal) and then brine em, marinate em, dry rub
> em with hook n' ladder scotch bonnet til mumified, douche em in reduced
> schlitz, shove two lemons up their asses and a lime down their throats,
> and eat em slathered with ketchup... and then have the unmitigated
> gall to actually claim yoose can taste the difference... yoose LIE!
>
> > Of course, being a European bird it probably spoke several languages!
>
> And unbathed.
>
> WTF is wrong with yoose peeps, sheesh!
>
> Yo, I got this organic bridge in Brooklyn.
>
> Anyhoo, the way yoose cheap bastids bitch about the price of everything
> I don't believe any of yoose ever bought any organic chicken... yoose
> all eat the same on-sale 79¢/lb oven roasters I eat... of course on
> Usenet we can all be sucking down $200/oz caviar and washing it down
> with equally priced Dom, every day... and can claim how we did it, how
> *WE* did it, at *my* dozens of Michelin 5 Star restaurants. ****ing
> organic Kraft mac n' cheese munching LIARS...WHEE ! ! ! WHEEEEE ! ! !
> WHEEEEEEEEEEEE ! ! !
>
> ****ing MEGALOMANIAC SON OF A WOP BITCH ! ! ! <G>
>
> Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. . . .
>
> Sheldon

Gotta agree for the most part, while there is certainly low quality
chicken and higher quality chicken, the "organic" or "free range" have
essentially nothing over a "normal industrial" quality chicken. The
bargain basement reject chicken does tend to suck though.

The only food where I see an objectively quantifiable difference is in
eggs. I've experimented a bit and I do find that the "Eggland's best
organic" eggs are better than the "run of the mill" eggs for uses like
Creme Brulee. The yolks are larger, creamier and have a more pronounced
color than the ordinary eggs and the whites seem to be clearer and more
fluid. For egg uses that aren't as up front, the regular eggs do just
fine.

Pete C.

"jacqui{JB}" > wrote in message
. dk...
>
> Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
> 30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in the
> world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
> folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?
>

About $15 AUS which would be some $11 US.

David

Peter Aitken wrote:

> Of course, being a European bird it
> probably spoke several languages!


Yup, and is probably a politically - correct *coward* to boot...

--
Best
Greg

jacqui{JB} wrote:

> Today, I went to our local ecological (aka organic) butcher and
> bought a whole roasting chicken (at roughly 5.5 pounds, what I'd
> refer to as a "proper" roasting fowl ). This is a relatively rare
> occasion for me -- I usually buy chicken at the local small
> stupidmarket, since it's close and convenient. I've noticed
> recently, however, that the chicken from the market is declining in
> quality and I have the distinct impression, based on the amount of
> unaccountable liquid in the roasting/frying pan, that the meat's
> being "plumped" at the factory (not a situation I'm happy with and I
> can't find anything about it on the package -- clearly, a letter to
> someone is in order).
>
> Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
> 30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in
> the world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued:
> what're you folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the
> world these days?
>
> And should I mention the DK-raised, organic turkey (whole), 6-8 kg,
> which I can order at a cost of 130DKK per kilo? I think we're not
> having turkey (again!) this year.

Generally speaking, in Minneapolis organic food costs about twice as
much as non-organic (with an extra premium for vegan food). However,
the Wedge co-op's organic chicken livers cost less than ordinary
chicken livers in standard supermarkets.


--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community
http://www.livejournal.com/community/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.

jacqui{JB} wrote:
> Today, I went to our local ecological (aka organic) butcher and bought a
> whole roasting chicken (at roughly 5.5 pounds, what I'd refer to as a
> "proper" roasting fowl ). This is a relatively rare occasion for me -- I
> usually buy chicken at the local small stupidmarket, since it's close and
> convenient. I've noticed recently, however, that the chicken from the
> market is declining in quality and I have the distinct impression, based on
> the amount of unaccountable liquid in the roasting/frying pan, that the
> meat's being "plumped" at the factory (not a situation I'm happy with and I
> can't find anything about it on the package -- clearly, a letter to someone
> is in order).
>
> Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
> 30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in the
> world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
> folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?
>
> And should I mention the DK-raised, organic turkey (whole), 6-8 kg, which I
> can order at a cost of 130DKK per kilo? I think we're not having turkey
> (again!) this year.
>
> -j
>
>
You can thank your French friends who will fight to the end for every
last euro of farm subsidy and import tariff.

--

================================================== =============
Regards

Louis Cohen

"Yes, yes, I will desalinate you, you grande morue!"

Émile Zola, Assommoir 1877

Louis Cohen wrote:

>
> > Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less that 194.95DKK, roughly
> > 30.70USD. Granted, Copenhagen is one of the most expensive cities in the
> > world in which to live, but jeez! So my curiosity's piqued: what're you
> > folks paying for organic chicken in your part of the world these days?
> >
> > And should I mention the DK-raised, organic turkey (whole), 6-8 kg, which I
> > can order at a cost of 130DKK per kilo? I think we're not having turkey
> > (again!) this year.
> >
> > -j
> >
> >
> You can thank your French friends who will fight to the end for every
> last euro of farm subsidy and import tariff.

How do the French subsidies compare with the $12.5 Billion in US farm subsidies
last year?
http://www.ewg.org/farm/findings.php

"~patches~" > wrote in message
...

> Ok, dumb question by why do folks refer
> to grocery stores as *stupidmarket*?

I picked it up here. I interpret it to mean large chain shops, where
quantity is often preferred to quality.

> What little groceries I need, I buy from a m&p (mom
> & pop) owned small grocery store or a franchise
> owned larger grocery store in town. It is a real treat
> for me to shop at a really huge grocer store in the city
> and I really enjoy browsing through US grocery stores
> like Farmer Jack.

I notice a huge difference in quality between the small, neighborhood
markets and the big chains here in DK. And there's no comparison for choice
between standards US grocery stores and standard DK grocery stores --
there's a *lot* less to choose from here. I'm trying to shop our
neighborhood stores more -- it's cheaper, the quality's higher -- but I'll
readily admit that I prefer to do all my shopping in one place, rather than
half-a-dozen shops, particularly since we don't have a car.

> > Anyway, my 5.5 pound organic bird cost no less
> that 194.95DKK, roughly 30.70USD.

> My word that is expensive! ...
> Denmark sounds very, very expensive! Are the wages
> higher? What are other food prices like?

DK is expensive, but the majority of people make a living wage. Taxes are
hellish from my American point of view (+50%), and all purchases (including
food) are subject to 25% VAT. The flip-side of the coin, though, is an
excellent social services system and a pretty good healthcare system from
which no one is excluded. And it's my observation that it's a lot harder to
fall though the cracks here than in many places, including the US.

Nothing's perfect.
-j

"Sheldon" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> Sheesh... if I'm gonna slap down $30 for an organic
> boid it had better be an ORGASMIC chick... and
> I mean that literally... adn when they pass the breast
> meatt I want mine with nipples! heh

I was thinking much the same thing. The bird was excellent, though, and I
didn't do much to it beyond rubbing it with a bit of butter and Herbes de
Provence, shoving a cut apple (also organic ) in the cavity, and sticking
it into the oven.

> What is organic anyway... really no such thing... I'd
> rather kosher than organic.

Organic -- or ecological -- actually means something in Denmark, and is a
much sought-after appellation. In this case, it has to do with how much
space the chickens have to roam around (not as much as "free range"), what
it's fed, and what it's *not* fed like antibiotics, steroids, etc. I don't
know anywhere in town where I could buy a Kosher-slaughtered bird; I could,
however, buy from our local Halal butcher (the Islamic equivalent) ... hm,
at least I *think* I could. I don't recall seeing chicken in this particular
shop. Lots of incredible lamb, though, at amazingly cheap prices.

I can't afford to splurge on such a chicken often, but I'll do it
occasionally.
-j

"Louis Cohen" > wrote in message
. ..

> You can thank your French friends who will fight
> to the end for every last euro of farm subsidy and
> import tariff.

Considering this was a local bird, French farm subsidies don't come into it.

And have you looked at the subsidies the US pays out? Yeesh.
-j

"Peter Aitken" > wrote in message
m...

> Of course, being a European bird it
> probably spoke several languages!

At least Danish and English.
-j

"~patches~" > wrote in message
...
> Anita Amaro wrote:
>
> > "~patches~" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>jacqui{JB} wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Today, I went to our local ecological (aka organic) butcher and bought
a
> >>>whole roasting chicken (at roughly 5.5 pounds, what I'd refer to as a
> >>>"proper" roasting fowl ). This is a relatively rare occasion for
> >
> > me -- I
> >
> >>>usually buy chicken at the local small stupidmarket, since it's close
> >
> >Snipped

> > At Field Organics, a stall at my local farmer's market (Waterloo, ON) a
> > small - like 3-4 pound chicken will cost in the mid $20 range CDN - I
kid
> > you not. I don't buy them, I go a couple stalls down and get the free
range
> > ones.
> >
> > A.
> >
> >
> We've been to the Waterloo and Kitchener farmer's markets quite a few
> times. I love going to both! That's an awful price for a 3-4 lb
> chicken. That sure wouldn't go far with our size family. I'm so glad I
> can get free range chickens for the price I can otherwise I'd be forced
> into buying grain fed chicken from the grocery store.

Whereabouts do you live? I ead earlier that your other half is deer hunting
in Muskoka somewhere?

Anyway, we go to the Wloo markets every week. There are some really terrific
vendors there.

A.

jacqui{JB} wrote:

<snip>
> Organic -- or ecological -- actually means something in Denmark, and is a
> much sought-after appellation. In this case, it has to do with how much
> space the chickens have to roam around (not as much as "free range"), what
> it's fed, and what it's *not* fed like antibiotics, steroids, etc. I don't
> know anywhere in town where I could buy a Kosher-slaughtered bird; I could,
> however, buy from our local Halal butcher (the Islamic equivalent) ... hm,
> at least I *think* I could. I don't recall seeing chicken in this particular
> shop. Lots of incredible lamb, though, at amazingly cheap prices.
>
> I can't afford to splurge on such a chicken often, but I'll do it
> occasionally.
> -j

I find you last statement quite interesting. It just goes to show what
some take for granted others can't. Here in Ontario, chicken is rather
inexpensive. One of the larger stores usually sells legs with backs
attached for 69 cents/lb. Another store has roasting chickens 4 - 6 lb
on sale for 1.29/lb but the normal price is $2.49/lb. And I can get
roasting chickens for $5 each that are better quality than in the
stores. I noticed chicken breasts on sale for 97 cents/lb at the US
grocery store. I picked up a pack of these to try as there were 6 large
chicken breasts in the package and the packages averaged $4.50. The
only thing I noticed about the US chicken is the label says there can be
5% water from processing. Chicken is really a cheap meat here and a
staple in most homes. I'd say we eat chicken 2 - 4 times weekly. So to
hear someone say they can't afford to spluge on chicken is very
different and it brings home what is so common here is not common
elsewhere. What meats you eat in Denmark if chicken and turkey is so
expensive?
>
>

~patches~ wrote:

> hear someone say they can't afford to spluge on chicken is very
> different and it brings home what is so common here is not common
> elsewhere. What meats you eat in Denmark if chicken and turkey is so
> expensive?
>

I think she meant that "organic" chicken (which costs more EVERYwhere)
is her splurge. Not that ALL chicken was prohibitively expensive.
Goomba

Anita Amaro wrote:

> "~patches~" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Anita Amaro wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"~patches~" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>jacqui{JB} wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Today, I went to our local ecological (aka organic) butcher and bought
>
> a
>
>>>>>whole roasting chicken (at roughly 5.5 pounds, what I'd refer to as a
>>>>>"proper" roasting fowl ). This is a relatively rare occasion for
>>>
>>>me -- I
>>>
>>>
>>>>>usually buy chicken at the local small stupidmarket, since it's close
>>>
>>>Snipped
>
>
>>>At Field Organics, a stall at my local farmer's market (Waterloo, ON) a
>>>small - like 3-4 pound chicken will cost in the mid $20 range CDN - I
>
> kid
>
>>>you not. I don't buy them, I go a couple stalls down and get the free
>
> range
>
>>>ones.
>>>
>>>A.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>We've been to the Waterloo and Kitchener farmer's markets quite a few
>>times. I love going to both! That's an awful price for a 3-4 lb
>>chicken. That sure wouldn't go far with our size family. I'm so glad I
>>can get free range chickens for the price I can otherwise I'd be forced
>>into buying grain fed chicken from the grocery store.
>
>
> Whereabouts do you live? I ead earlier that your other half is deer hunting
> in Muskoka somewhere?
>
> Anyway, we go to the Wloo markets every week. There are some really terrific
> vendors there.
>
> A.
>
>
We live in southwestern Ontario. They are hunting north of Huntsville
by about 15 - 20 min so yes in the Muskoka area. They took a boat for
fishing and a quad. I'm hoping DH gets a few pics of a bear or two. We
camped at Algonquin several times. On one trip they had a bear trap set
up on the campsite beside us. We've seen bear a few times while hiking
there.

We are in the KW area a couple of times a month. I like the Kitchener
markets better as it is larger. We always stop at the markets.

"~patches~" > wrote in message
...

> > I can't afford to splurge on such a chicken
> > often, but I'll do it occasionally.

> I find you last statement quite interesting.
<snip discussion of various chicken prices just for bandwidth>
> Chicken is really a cheap meat here and
> a staple in most homes. I'd say we eat chicken
> 2 - 4 times weekly. So to hear someone say they
> can't afford to spluge on chicken is very different
> and it brings home what is so common here is not
> common elsewhere.
>
> What meats you eat in Denmark if chicken and turkey
> is so expensive?

I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I meant that I can't afford a
$30.00 organic bird more than occasionally -- although I certainly would if
I could! It really was an excellent fowl. Regular chicken prices are ....
well, they're in line with the cost of everything else, although I couldn't
tell you what the price per kilo (or half-kilo -- some producers print the
price per half-kilo on the label). If I kept a running tally of the cost of
things here, I'd probably lose my mind. Quality is starting to be an issue,
though, and I'm seeing more of the same brand of chicken in the various
shops and I'm not impressed. I think I mentioned up-thread that I've
noticed an inordinate amount of liquid in the cooking pan and excessive
shrinkage from chicken parts, so I think there's some hanky-panky going on
which isn't reflected on the label. I'll be following-up on *that* bit of
mischief.

Pork is still very much the meat of choice here in DK, and it's quite good
quality indeed. *And* it's possible to get things like neck cutlets, which
are nicely marbled and well-suited to long-cooking dishes. Beef is a
luxury, as far as I'm concerned. The stuff at the stupidmarket is ****-poor
quality (and usually looks like it's been hacked apart with a rusty ax); the
cuts from my favorite butcher (different from the organic butcher I went to
yesterday for the chicken -- I haven't tried beef from them yet) are
amazingly good and amazingly expensive. Veal is popular, especially at big
dinner parties, as is venison in the fall (unfortunately, it's often
overcooked). The veal is always "free range," and not subject to the
nastiness of keeping the calves boxed up -- they run around as they like.

Fish is popular, though likewise expensive -- which one wouldn't expect,
considering the long history of fishermen in the population. Salmon is the
cheapest; I'd buy it more, but the spousal unit isn't very enthusiastic.
Pickled herring, of course, is plentiful and relatively inexpensive. Good
stuff, too.

Have I muddied the waters enough for you?
-j

"Goomba38" > wrote in message
...

> > hear someone say they can't afford to spluge on
> > chicken is very different and it brings home what
> > is so common here is not common elsewhere. What
> > meats you eat in Denmark if chicken and turkey is so
> > expensive?

> I think she meant that "organic" chicken (which costs
> more EVERYwhere) is her splurge. Not that ALL
> chicken was prohibitively expensive.

Just so.
-j

~patches~ wrote:

>
> I find you last statement quite interesting. It just goes to show what
> some take for granted others can't. Here in Ontario, chicken is rather
> inexpensive. One of the larger stores usually sells legs with backs
> attached for 69 cents/lb. Another store has roasting chickens 4 - 6 lb
> on sale for 1.29/lb but the normal price is $2.49/lb. And I can get
> roasting chickens for $5 each that are better quality than in the
> stores. I noticed chicken breasts on sale for 97 cents/lb at the US
> grocery store. I picked up a pack of these to try as there were 6 large
> chicken breasts in the package and the packages averaged $4.50. The
> only thing I noticed about the US chicken is the label says there can be
> 5% water from processing. Chicken is really a cheap meat here and a
> staple in most homes. I'd say we eat chicken 2 - 4 times weekly. So to
> hear someone say they can't afford to spluge on chicken is very
> different and it brings home what is so common here is not common
> elsewhere. What meats you eat in Denmark if chicken and turkey is so
> expensive?

I have been to Denmark twice. Pork seemed to be very popular, and lots of fish.
It was funny the last time we were there and were invited to the homes of friends
for dinner. The first one we went to we were served a roatsed loin of pork, boiled
potatoes, peas and carrots, salad, and ice cream with preserved strawberries. The
next night we were at another house more than 100 km away and we had exactly the
same meal. On a previous trip we had been guests at a large dinner at a church and
had roast pork loin, boiled potatoes, salad, peas and carrots and cabbage.

I can't complain. It was delicious, and the hospitality was wonderful. It also
saved us the expense of going to a restaurant for dinner. That was an expensive
proposition. One night we had dropped a friend off at his house and had to grab a
quick meal. I thought the restaurant at our hotel was expensive so we went to
another place. By that time we were really rushed. We explained our rush to the
waitress and got very fast service. My wife ordered a glass of wine and the
waitress asked if I wanted wine. I said I would just have water. My wife asked for
water too. The waitress brought two bottles of water.... $10 each, same as the
glass of wine. Without dessert and coffee, the dinner that we got and ate within
40 minutes was $150.

"Goomba38" > wrote in message
...
> ~patches~ wrote:
>
>> hear someone say they can't afford to spluge on chicken is very different
>> and it brings home what is so common here is not common elsewhere. What
>> meats you eat in Denmark if chicken and turkey is so expensive?
>>
>
> I think she meant that "organic" chicken (which costs more EVERYwhere) is
> her splurge. Not that ALL chicken was prohibitively expensive.
> Goomba

Organic chicken whole the last time I bought it at Whole Foods, Vienna, VA,
USA was $1.49 a lb.
So a 4# chicken is about $6. I don't feel that is too bad a price (for me).
It tastes good, not like some other well-known brand that always tastes of
chicken feathers. I had quit buying chicken; now I stock up when I trip to
Vienna. Trader Joe's is opening tomorrow in Centerville, VA, which is a
little closer. I don't know if they will carry Belle & Evans and/or Empire
or not; hope so.

P.S. Wayne, if you are reading this. I checked for pasteurized vs.
ultra-pasteurized cream at Trader Joe's in Darien, CT. They only carry
small sizes. I said it was 1/2 pt. DH said it was 1 pt. An impasse. But
it was tiny for the price - as I recall, close to $2.50, but not sure. The
milk-manager said that different areas of the country carry different dairy
products.
Dee Dee

jacqui{JB} wrote:
>
> "~patches~" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > > I can't afford to splurge on such a chicken
> > > often, but I'll do it occasionally.
>
> > I find you last statement quite interesting.
> <snip discussion of various chicken prices just for bandwidth>
> > Chicken is really a cheap meat here and
> > a staple in most homes. I'd say we eat chicken
> > 2 - 4 times weekly. So to hear someone say they
> > can't afford to spluge on chicken is very different
> > and it brings home what is so common here is not
> > common elsewhere.
> >
> > What meats you eat in Denmark if chicken and turkey
> > is so expensive?
>
> I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I meant that I can't afford a
> $30.00 organic bird more than occasionally -- although I certainly would if
> I could! It really was an excellent fowl. Regular chicken prices are ....
> well, they're in line with the cost of everything else, although I couldn't
> tell you what the price per kilo (or half-kilo -- some producers print the
> price per half-kilo on the label). If I kept a running tally of the cost of
> things here, I'd probably lose my mind. Quality is starting to be an issue,
> though, and I'm seeing more of the same brand of chicken in the various
> shops and I'm not impressed. I think I mentioned up-thread that I've
> noticed an inordinate amount of liquid in the cooking pan and excessive
> shrinkage from chicken parts, so I think there's some hanky-panky going on
> which isn't reflected on the label. I'll be following-up on *that* bit of
> mischief.
>
> Pork is still very much the meat of choice here in DK, and it's quite good
> quality indeed. *And* it's possible to get things like neck cutlets, which
> are nicely marbled and well-suited to long-cooking dishes. Beef is a
> luxury, as far as I'm concerned. The stuff at the stupidmarket is ****-poor
> quality (and usually looks like it's been hacked apart with a rusty ax); the
> cuts from my favorite butcher (different from the organic butcher I went to
> yesterday for the chicken -- I haven't tried beef from them yet) are
> amazingly good and amazingly expensive. Veal is popular, especially at big
> dinner parties, as is venison in the fall (unfortunately, it's often
> overcooked). The veal is always "free range," and not subject to the
> nastiness of keeping the calves boxed up -- they run around as they like.
>
> Fish is popular, though likewise expensive -- which one wouldn't expect,
> considering the long history of fishermen in the population. Salmon is the
> cheapest; I'd buy it more, but the spousal unit isn't very enthusiastic.
> Pickled herring, of course, is plentiful and relatively inexpensive. Good
> stuff, too.
>
> Have I muddied the waters enough for you?
> -j

With those kind of prices and taxes and likely high housing costs it
sure make you wonder what kind of quality of life people can manage.

Here in the US I as a single guy with a decent job can afford a
comfortable 3BR house with a 600 sq ft detached workshop full of serious
tools, on 4 acres of land, two vehicles (truck and motorcycle), a large
piece of investment property and "high end" meals whenever I want. I get
an adequate amount of vacation time (4 weeks) and have the funds to take
pretty decent vacations. I happen to have good health insurance as well,
but even if I had to spend a good deal more for health insurance I'd
still have a pretty high standard of living.

From what I gather in the socialist world, people have "free" access to
health care and perhaps more of a social safety net, but the tradeoff is
that they have to live in cramped housing, rely on public transit, have
few large tools / toys and while in some places they get more vacation
days then we typically do in the US, they also don't have the funds to
do anything particularly fancy for the vacations.

Definitely not tradeoffs I'd be willing to make for the guaranteed
health care and safety net.

Pete C.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...

> I have been to Denmark twice. Pork seemed to be
> very popular, and lots of fish. It was funny the last time
> we were there and were invited to the homes of friends
> for dinner. The first one we went to we were served
> a roatsed loin of pork, boiled potatoes, peas and carrots,
> salad, and ice cream with preserved strawberries. The
> next night we were at another house more than 100 km
> away and we had exactly the same meal. On a previous
> trip we had been guests at a large dinner at a church and
> had roast pork loin, boiled potatoes, salad, peas and carrots
> and cabbage.

Roast pork, boiled potatoes, peas and carrots, cabbage -- all standard
Danish fare.

> I can't complain. It was delicious, and the hospitality was
> wonderful. It also saved us the expense of going to a restaurant
> for dinner. That was an expensive proposition. One night we
> had dropped a friend off at his house and had to grab a
> quick meal. I thought the restaurant at our hotel was expensive
> so we went to another place. By that time we were really
> rushed. We explained our rush to the waitress and got very
> fast service. My wife ordered a glass of wine and the waitress
> asked if I wanted wine. I said I would just have water. My wife
> asked for water too. The waitress brought two bottles of water....
> $10 each, same as the glass of wine. Without dessert and coffee,
> the dinner that we got and ate within 40 minutes was $150.

What on earth did you eat at your quick dinner? Yes, it's very possible to
spend $150 for dinner in Denmark -- were you in Copenhagen, btw? -- but I'd
say unusual for a quick meal out. $10 each for bottles of water is very
high in my experience, and I generally order water when I go out. Beer's
cheaper, though.

-j

"Pete C." > wrote in message
...

> With those kind of prices and taxes and likely
> high housing costs it sure make you wonder what
> kind of quality of life people can manage.

People live just fine. It's *different* than the US (being an American and
having spent the first 35 years of my life there, I have some idea), but the
standard of living is essentially comparable. The difference, of course, is
that people are paid a living wage here (waiters, for example, don't have to
rely on tips to make ends meet).

> Here in the US I as a single guy with a decent job
> can afford a comfortable 3BR house with a 600 sq
> ft detached workshop full of serious tools, on 4 acres
> of land, two vehicles (truck and motorcycle), a large
> piece of investment property and "high end" meals
> whenever I want. I get an adequate amount of vacation
> time (4 weeks) and have the funds to take pretty decent
> vacations. I happen to have good health insurance as well,
> but even if I had to spend a good deal more for health
> insurance I'd still have a pretty high standard of living.

I'd hazard a guess that you don't live in Southern California.

We live in an 180 sq meter flat just outside the center of Copenhagen, with
a killer view. No garage, but we don't have a car, either. Many people who
live in the city don't have cars, not only because of the cost (don't get me
started on the taxes involved in buying a new car -- on order of 160% of the
cost of the car [no, that's not a typo] plus 25% VAT -- it pays for road
maintenance, among other things, and the roads are generally in great
condition). I don't work (for reasons which have no bearing on this
discussion), and while the budget is tighter than we'd like, we still have
adequate money for many extras.

> From what I gather in the socialist world, people have
> "free" access to health care and perhaps more of a social
> safety net, but the tradeoff is that they have to live in
> cramped housing,

Depends on your definition of "cramped." Housing here -- and in the rest of
Europe, to say nothing of the rest of the world -- have you looked at
apartments in Japan, for example? -- is different than in the US. I don't
consider our flat cramped -- and I don't think any of my US friends would
think so, either. But it is on the large size, compared to many in
Copenhagen.

> rely on public transit,

You make that sound like a negative thing. The public transportation in and
around Copenhagen -- and apparently the rest of Denmark, although I haven't
tried it -- is excellent. Far better than anything I experienced in
Southern California. And we're close enough to the husband's office that he
can ride his bike or walk to work, as to many other people in this part of
the world.

> have few large tools / toys

We have plenty of toys, thanks. As for tools, we have what we need.

> and while in some places they get more vacation
> days then we typically do in the US,

By law, Danish workers are entitled to five weeks of vacation; by collective
agreement (+80% of the working population), workers get thirty days of paid
vacation. Plus everyone has the ten public holidays. You're unusual, in
that you have four weeks of vacation a year, most people in the US don't get
that (most people in the US are lucky to get two weeks).

> they also don't have the funds to do anything particularly
> fancy for the vacations.

You're quite misinformed. I have never met such people for travel as Danes.
My husband's colleagues take amazing holidays; for example, one of his
coworkers (a secretary, mind you) recently took a three week photo safari in
Tanzania and Kenya. This particular colleague takes a trip of this
magnitude this every couple of years. OTOH, none of my contemporaries in
San Diego went on serious trips; the occasional jaunt to Baja or up the
coast was about it.

> Definitely not tradeoffs I'd be willing to make for the
> guaranteed health care and safety net.

I didn't come to Denmark. for the heathcare or social safety net; I came
because I fell in love with a Dane. What I've learned has been quite
amazing. I think it's safe to say that you never see your country as
clearly as you do when you leave. I am *NOT* saying that the Danish system
is perfect -- far from it -- but there are a number of things that they've
gotten right.

A couple of links you may find interesting:
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/48/18/18598721.pdf -- comparative price
levels -- see the chart on page two.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.reques...hccsuppt07.txt -- from
the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, hourly direct pay in US dollars for
production workers in manufacturing. Scroll down to 2003 for the latest
available figures. It's important to look at the statistics in context.
Someone in Denmark making $29.13 an hour would pay in the 40% income tax
range, plus 25% VAT on all purchases. However, many things that a US worker
(or employer) would have to pay for (health care, tertiary education, etc.)
are paid for here.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.reques...hccsuppt15.txt --
also from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, social insurance expenditures and
other labor taxes as percent of hourly compensation costs for production
workers in manufacturing -- this is what the *employer* pays, on top of
wages. Again, scroll down to 2003. And keep in mind that the exchange rate
has changed since 2003. For example, when I moved here five years ago, the
Danish Kroner was 8.3 to 1USD; now, it's roughly 6.4DKK to 1USD (the
dollar's getting stronger); two years ago, it was around 5-5.5DKK to 1USD.

Thus endeth the lesson for today.
-j

jacqui{JB} wrote:

> "Sheldon" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
> > Sheesh... if I'm gonna slap down $30 for an organic
> > boid it had better be an ORGASMIC chick... and
> > I mean that literally... adn when they pass the breast
> > meatt I want mine with nipples! heh
>
> I was thinking much the same thing. The bird was excellent, though,
> and I didn't do much to it beyond rubbing it with a bit of butter and
> Herbes de Provence, shoving a cut apple (also organic ) in the
> cavity, and sticking it into the oven.
>
> > What is organic anyway... really no such thing... I'd
> > rather kosher than organic.
>
> Organic -- or ecological -- actually means something in Denmark, and
> is a much sought-after appellation.

It also means something in the US, though there are ongoing attempts to
relax the standards. Sheldon is wrong on this.

> In this case, it has to do with
> how much space the chickens have to roam around (not as much as "free
> range"), what it's fed, and what it's not fed like antibiotics,
> steroids, etc. I don't know anywhere in town where I could buy a
> Kosher-slaughtered bird; I could, however, buy from our local Halal
> butcher (the Islamic equivalent) ... hm, at least I think I could. I
> don't recall seeing chicken in this particular shop. Lots of
> incredible lamb, though, at amazingly cheap prices.

In Minneapolis, goat meat has become easier to get. (No, I haven't
tried it.) And camel meat is now available. And one store not far
from me has West African microwave meals.

--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community
http://www.livejournal.com/community/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.

Dan Goodman wrote:

>>Organic -- or ecological -- actually means something in Denmark, and
>>is a much sought-after appellation.
>
>
> It also means something in the US, though there are ongoing attempts to
> relax the standards. Sheldon is wrong on this.

All the consumers guides I've read suggest that there is a LOT of leeway
in what constitutes or is allowed to be called "organic" in the US.
Unless standards have recently (past couple years) changed??

jacqui{JB} wrote:
>
> "Pete C." > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > With those kind of prices and taxes and likely
> > high housing costs it sure make you wonder what
> > kind of quality of life people can manage.
>
> People live just fine. It's *different* than the US (being an American and
> having spent the first 35 years of my life there, I have some idea), but the
> standard of living is essentially comparable. The difference, of course, is
> that people are paid a living wage here (waiters, for example, don't have to
> rely on tips to make ends meet).

If the waiters don't have to rely on tips, is the customary tip amount
lower there, or are the waiters rich from all the tips? These days my
tipping is typically about 20% for a full service restaurant and about
10% for a buffet place where they just bring drinks and clear plates.

>
> > Here in the US I as a single guy with a decent job
> > can afford a comfortable 3BR house with a 600 sq
> > ft detached workshop full of serious tools, on 4 acres
> > of land, two vehicles (truck and motorcycle), a large
> > piece of investment property and "high end" meals
> > whenever I want. I get an adequate amount of vacation
> > time (4 weeks) and have the funds to take pretty decent
> > vacations. I happen to have good health insurance as well,
> > but even if I had to spend a good deal more for health
> > insurance I'd still have a pretty high standard of living.
>
> I'd hazard a guess that you don't live in Southern California.

Definitely not. California is very different from the rest of the US
(except for Massachusetts) and rather it's own little socialist
republic.

>
> We live in an 180 sq meter flat just outside the center of Copenhagen, with
> a killer view. No garage, but we don't have a car, either. Many people who
> live in the city don't have cars, not only because of the cost (don't get me
> started on the taxes involved in buying a new car -- on order of 160% of the
> cost of the car [no, that's not a typo] plus 25% VAT -- it pays for road
> maintenance, among other things, and the roads are generally in great
> condition). I don't work (for reasons which have no bearing on this
> discussion), and while the budget is tighter than we'd like, we still have
> adequate money for many extras.

180 sq meter ~ 1,620 sq ft I think, a decent size. No garage or
presumably much of a yard since you didn't mention it would seem to
indicate a relatively cramped setting (views don't correlate with
space).

A single income family that has a budget that is as you put it "tighter
than we'd like" while not having the expense of a car which is the norm
in the US would seem to indicate a lower standard of living.

I think what you are really getting at is that your "quality of life" is
comparable based on the adjustments you have made for the economics
there and not really that the "standard of living" is comparable.

>
> > From what I gather in the socialist world, people have
> > "free" access to health care and perhaps more of a social
> > safety net, but the tradeoff is that they have to live in
> > cramped housing,
>
> Depends on your definition of "cramped." Housing here -- and in the rest of
> Europe, to say nothing of the rest of the world -- have you looked at
> apartments in Japan, for example? -- is different than in the US. I don't
> consider our flat cramped -- and I don't think any of my US friends would
> think so, either. But it is on the large size, compared to many in
> Copenhagen.

I wouldn't consider 1,620 sq. ft. or so cramped for a small family. It
is a bit smaller than what is typical in much of the US and when you
factor in space from a garage and yard it would feel cramped to me since
I am used to having space for my workshop and space to hang a hammock
outside.

Growing up I made extensive use of the 2.5 acres yard with it's trees
and stream, providing exercise, recreation and spatial skills
development opportunities that would not be available to children raised
in an area without yards.

>
> > rely on public transit,
>
> You make that sound like a negative thing. The public transportation in and
> around Copenhagen -- and apparently the rest of Denmark, although I haven't
> tried it -- is excellent. Far better than anything I experienced in
> Southern California. And we're close enough to the husband's office that he
> can ride his bike or walk to work, as to many other people in this part of
> the world.

Yes, public transit is indeed pretty poor in the US. However having your
own transportation is still a standard of living factor. The fact that
you have workable public transit and a relatively dense population
allows you to maintain a decent quality of life, but is still a tradeoff
on the standard of living.

>
> > have few large tools / toys
>
> We have plenty of toys, thanks. As for tools, we have what we need.

I classify most everything other than food, water and air as a toy.
Whether it is the full machine shop, the big boat, fancy car or whatever
else suits your tastes, I count that into the standard of living
assessment. You quality of life may not appear to suffer since you
probably wouldn't have the space for the workshop for instance, but the
inability to have it if you wanted it does speak to a lower standard of
living.

>
> > and while in some places they get more vacation
> > days then we typically do in the US,
>
> By law, Danish workers are entitled to five weeks of vacation; by collective
> agreement (+80% of the working population), workers get thirty days of paid
> vacation. Plus everyone has the ten public holidays. You're unusual, in
> that you have four weeks of vacation a year, most people in the US don't get
> that (most people in the US are lucky to get two weeks).

Well, I do have a decent job, however my mother works at a discount
clothing retail store and also has four weeks of vacation although it
took her some years of service to get it.

>
> > they also don't have the funds to do anything particularly
> > fancy for the vacations.
>
> You're quite misinformed. I have never met such people for travel as Danes.
> My husband's colleagues take amazing holidays; for example, one of his
> coworkers (a secretary, mind you) recently took a three week photo safari in
> Tanzania and Kenya. This particular colleague takes a trip of this
> magnitude this every couple of years. OTOH, none of my contemporaries in
> San Diego went on serious trips; the occasional jaunt to Baja or up the
> coast was about it.

I don't generally do anything exotic for vacation myself, but it's from
lack of ambition rather than lack of money. In fact at the moment I'm
trying to figure out what to do with the two weeks of vacation I still
haven't used this year. I also have enough sky miles for a ticket that
I'd like to use before the airline implodes (already in bankruptcy, but
still honoring sky miles).

The point is that while certainly folks like you indicate can take
significant vacations as you say every couple of years, I could take
vacations of that magnitude a couple times a year if I had the ambition.
I don't however because I have little ambition to travel by myself.

>
> > Definitely not tradeoffs I'd be willing to make for the
> > guaranteed health care and safety net.
>
> I didn't come to Denmark. for the heathcare or social safety net; I came
> because I fell in love with a Dane. What I've learned has been quite
> amazing. I think it's safe to say that you never see your country as
> clearly as you do when you leave. I am *NOT* saying that the Danish system
> is perfect -- far from it -- but there are a number of things that they've
> gotten right.

You hit it there - no place seems to have everything right, each has
some portion right and another screwed up. Somehow nobody seems to take
the correct parts from the different places and create that mythical
perfect place.

>
> A couple of links you may find interesting:
> http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/48/18/18598721.pdf -- comparative price
> levels -- see the chart on page two.
>
> ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.reques...hccsuppt07.txt -- from
> the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, hourly direct pay in US dollars for
> production workers in manufacturing. Scroll down to 2003 for the latest
> available figures. It's important to look at the statistics in context.
> Someone in Denmark making $29.13 an hour would pay in the 40% income tax
> range, plus 25% VAT on all purchases. However, many things that a US worker
> (or employer) would have to pay for (health care, tertiary education, etc.)
> are paid for here.

Manufacturing is in big trouble / decline in the US and has been for a
number of years. It is not a good area to try to draw comparisons with.

>
> ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.reques...hccsuppt15.txt --
> also from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, social insurance expenditures and
> other labor taxes as percent of hourly compensation costs for production
> workers in manufacturing -- this is what the *employer* pays, on top of
> wages. Again, scroll down to 2003. And keep in mind that the exchange rate
> has changed since 2003. For example, when I moved here five years ago, the
> Danish Kroner was 8.3 to 1USD; now, it's roughly 6.4DKK to 1USD (the
> dollar's getting stronger); two years ago, it was around 5-5.5DKK to 1USD.

I think that one of us may be misinterpreting that information.

In the US the amount that an employer pays towards an employees benefits
(health insurance, workers comp insurance, unemployment insurance) is
higher than Denmark because the government covers those costs, with
taxes out of the employees income.

So where the US employer pays 22% on top of the workers wage to cover
those costs, and the worker is taxed about 30% on those wages, in
Denmark it would appear that the employer does not pay anything extra on
top of the workers salary and then the workers salary is taxed by the
government 65% to cover those extra costs.

Since the overall taxation seems higher in Denmark than the overall in
the US that would seem to support the notion that government
inefficiency and bureaucracy introduce additional overhead causing the
overall cost of the coverage to increase.

>
> Thus endeth the lesson for today.
> -j

It's certainly an interesting comparison.

Pete C.

jacqui{JB} wrote:
>
> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > I have been to Denmark twice. Pork seemed to be
> > very popular, and lots of fish. It was funny the last time
> > we were there and were invited to the homes of friends
> > for dinner. The first one we went to we were served
> > a roatsed loin of pork, boiled potatoes, peas and carrots,
> > salad, and ice cream with preserved strawberries. The
> > next night we were at another house more than 100 km
> > away and we had exactly the same meal. On a previous
> > trip we had been guests at a large dinner at a church and
> > had roast pork loin, boiled potatoes, salad, peas and carrots
> > and cabbage.
>
> Roast pork, boiled potatoes, peas and carrots, cabbage -- all standard
> Danish fare.
>
> > I can't complain. It was delicious, and the hospitality was
> > wonderful. It also saved us the expense of going to a restaurant
> > for dinner. That was an expensive proposition. One night we
> > had dropped a friend off at his house and had to grab a
> > quick meal. I thought the restaurant at our hotel was expensive
> > so we went to another place. By that time we were really
> > rushed. We explained our rush to the waitress and got very
> > fast service. My wife ordered a glass of wine and the waitress
> > asked if I wanted wine. I said I would just have water. My wife
> > asked for water too. The waitress brought two bottles of water....
> > $10 each, same as the glass of wine. Without dessert and coffee,
> > the dinner that we got and ate within 40 minutes was $150.
>
> What on earth did you eat at your quick dinner? Yes, it's very possible to
> spend $150 for dinner in Denmark -- were you in Copenhagen, btw? -- but I'd
> say unusual for a quick meal out. $10 each for bottles of water is very
> high in my experience, and I generally order water when I go out. Beer's
> cheaper, though.
>
> -j

Any place where beer is cheaper than water has got to be good

Pete C.