first attempt at pie crust a flop!
 

hi, just read the thread here about *pie crust help*. wish i had read
it two days ago! :(

i attempted to make the dough, and used two cubes of organic butter and
four oz of organic coconut butter from a jar, it is solid at room temp.


but i didnt realize everything had to be COLD so i had the butter and
coconut butter at room temp and mixed by hand into three cups flour.
needless to say, it was a gooey mess, so i added another cup of flour,
and left out the water, and then refrigerated it but it is not workable
it is like a rock.

can it be salvaged or toss and start again? it has been in the fridge
since last night. myraide

I suggest you throw it out -- perhaps some birds or other critters will
enjoy it -- and start over with a standard recipe. Both Joy of Cooking
and Betty Crocker have very good directions for beginners with pie
crust.

On Wed 07 Sep 2005 06:18:35p, Myraide wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> hi, just read the thread here about *pie crust help*. wish i had read
> it two days ago! :(
>
> i attempted to make the dough, and used two cubes of organic butter and
> four oz of organic coconut butter from a jar, it is solid at room temp.
>
>
> but i didnt realize everything had to be COLD so i had the butter and
> coconut butter at room temp and mixed by hand into three cups flour.
> needless to say, it was a gooey mess, so i added another cup of flour,
> and left out the water, and then refrigerated it but it is not workable
> it is like a rock.
>
> can it be salvaged or toss and start again? it has been in the fridge
> since last night. myraide

Honestly? I would toss it and start over with both butters being cold.
Successful pie dough is dependent on tiny particles of butter or shortening
remaining rather solid and being completely coated with the flour mixture.
Water is added to make a cohesive mixture and to create a bit of steam
while baking. It is the layers of the flour coated particles that form the
flakes in the baked crust, along with the small amount of steam.

What you have actually created, using softened butters, is a paste with no
recognizable particles. I can't imagine that you'd ever end up with flakes
in the finished pastry. More likely, it will be greasy and tough.

Of course, you have nothing to lose by allowing it to warm up enough so
that it can be rolled out. Bake it and see what you get, but don't be
surprised if it's not very good. I know of no way to salvage it.

FWIW, when I make pie pastry I chill everything including the bowl, flour
mixture, and implements. Most important, I make ice water using ice cubes,
so that the water is as cold as possible. When the pastry is complete, I
form it into one or more flattened disks and refrigerate for about half an
hour or longer before rolling it out. Note: If you chill the dough too
long, you will need to let it warm up a bit before rolling it.

HTH


--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four,
unless there are three other people.

"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed 07 Sep 2005 06:18:35p, Myraide wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
>
>
> FWIW, when I make pie pastry I chill everything including the bowl,
> flour
> mixture, and implements. Most important, I make ice water using ice
> cubes,
> so that the water is as cold as possible. When the pastry is
> complete, I
> form it into one or more flattened disks and refrigerate for about
> half an
> hour or longer before rolling it out. Note: If you chill the dough
> too
> long, you will need to let it warm up a bit before rolling it.
>
Much good advice, Wayne. I think you must make a good pie! What's your
favorite kind to make?

Myraide, when I first started making pie crust, I rolled it out between
sheets of wax paper (still do, actually). The Fannie Farmer Baking Book
has really good step-by-step instructions (plus a great apple pie
recipe). I couldn't believe how great my first pie turned out following
those instructions...as good as my mother-in-law's (and she's known for
her wonderful pies...though my husband refused to try any of my pie,
because he figured there'd be no way it could be anywhere near as good
as his mom's...pie snob, huh?). Anyway, good luck!

Chris

"Mary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I suggest you throw it out -- perhaps some birds or other critters will
> enjoy it -- and start over with a standard recipe. Both Joy of Cooking
> and Betty Crocker have very good directions for beginners with pie
> crust.
>

Maybe she could make cookies with it? Add this or
that and salvage it?

nancy

On Wed 07 Sep 2005 11:15:08p, Chris wrote in rec.food.cooking:

>
> "Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Wed 07 Sep 2005 06:18:35p, Myraide wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>>
>>
>>
>> FWIW, when I make pie pastry I chill everything including the bowl,
>> flour mixture, and implements. Most important, I make ice water using
>> ice cubes, so that the water is as cold as possible. When the pastry
>> is complete, I
>> form it into one or more flattened disks and refrigerate for about
>> half an
>> hour or longer before rolling it out. Note: If you chill the dough
>> too long, you will need to let it warm up a bit before rolling it.
>>
> Much good advice, Wayne. I think you must make a good pie! What's your
> favorite kind to make?

Yes, I do take a lot of pride in my pies, and others seem to think they're
very good. Fresh fruit pies are a favorite, especially apple and
blackberry. My favorite non-fruit pies are pecan, chess, and lemon
meringue.

> Myraide, when I first started making pie crust, I rolled it out between
> sheets of wax paper (still do, actually).

I do that, too, or use plastic wrap.

> The Fannie Farmer Baking Book
> has really good step-by-step instructions (plus a great apple pie
> recipe).

That's an excellent book, and an excellent example of how to make a good
pastry. I was baking pies long before that book was every published, but
there are some very good recipes in there.

I couldn't believe how great my first pie turned out following
> those instructions...as good as my mother-in-law's (and she's known for
> her wonderful pies...though my husband refused to try any of my pie,
> because he figured there'd be no way it could be anywhere near as good
> as his mom's...pie snob, huh?).

I hope he's not such a snob that devours them now! :-)

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four,
unless there are three other people.

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
> On Wed 07 Sep 2005 06:18:35p, Myraide wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
> > hi, just read the thread here about *pie crust help*. wish i had read
> > it two days ago! :(
> >
> > i attempted to make the dough, and used two cubes of organic butter and
> > four oz of organic coconut butter from a jar, it is solid at room temp.
> >
> >
> > but i didnt realize everything had to be COLD so i had the butter and
> > coconut butter at room temp and mixed by hand into three cups flour.
> > needless to say, it was a gooey mess, so i added another cup of flour,
> > and left out the water, and then refrigerated it but it is not workable
> > it is like a rock.
> >
> > can it be salvaged or toss and start again? it has been in the fridge
> > since last night. myraide
>
> Honestly? I would toss it and start over with both butters being cold.
> Successful pie dough is dependent on tiny particles of butter or shorteni=
ng
> remaining rather solid and being completely coated with the flour mixture.
> Water is added to make a cohesive mixture and to create a bit of steam
> while baking. It is the layers of the flour coated particles that form t=
he
> flakes in the baked crust, along with the small amount of steam.

ok i see my major mistake. not having EVERYTHING really cold. and then
when mixed, i did not add the water as i thought it would just make it
more gooey than it already was. AND i mixed it with my hands which were
warm too....


>
> What you have actually created, using softened butters, is a paste with no
> recognizable particles. I can't imagine that you'd ever end up with flak=
es
> in the finished pastry. More likely, it will be greasy and tough.
>
> Of course, you have nothing to lose by allowing it to warm up enough so
> that it can be rolled out. Bake it and see what you get, but don't be
> surprised if it's not very good. I know of no way to salvage it.

its still in the fridge. maybe i can chop it up and use it as a base
for the topping of a crisp? but i will try to bake a bit of it to see
how it turns out. will probably break teeth, huh? myraide

>
> FWIW, when I make pie pastry I chill everything including the bowl, flour
> mixture, and implements. Most important, I make ice water using ice cube=
s,
> so that the water is as cold as possible. When the pastry is complete, I
> form it into one or more flattened disks and refrigerate for about half an
> hour or longer before rolling it out. Note: If you chill the dough too
> long, you will need to let it warm up a bit before rolling it.
>
> HTH
>
>
> --
> Wayne Boatwright *=BF*
> ____________________________________________
>
> My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four,
> unless there are three other people.

Chris wrote:
> "Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Wed 07 Sep 2005 06:18:35p, Myraide wrote in rec.food.cooking:
> >
> >
> >
> > FWIW, when I make pie pastry I chill everything including the bowl,
> > flour
> > mixture, and implements. Most important, I make ice water using ice
> > cubes,
> > so that the water is as cold as possible. When the pastry is
> > complete, I
> > form it into one or more flattened disks and refrigerate for about
> > half an
> > hour or longer before rolling it out. Note: If you chill the dough
> > too
> > long, you will need to let it warm up a bit before rolling it.
> >
> Much good advice, Wayne. I think you must make a good pie! What's your
> favorite kind to make?
>
> Myraide, when I first started making pie crust, I rolled it out between
> sheets of wax paper (still do, actually). The Fannie Farmer Baking Book
> has really good step-by-step instructions (plus a great apple pie
> recipe). I couldn't believe how great my first pie turned out following
> those instructions...as good as my mother-in-law's (and she's known for
> her wonderful pies...though my husband refused to try any of my pie,
> because he figured there'd be no way it could be anywhere near as good
> as his mom's...pie snob, huh?).

:)
yeah my bf's mom is the queen of the pie bakers and she picks her own
berries too. the competition is steep, but i wanted to try. i will give
it another go in a few days. i froze the blackberries i was going to
use when i knew the crust was doomed.

Anyway, good luck!

thanks....i need it! myraide

>
> Chris

Myraide wrote:

> ok i see my major mistake. not having EVERYTHING really cold. and then
> when mixed, i did not add the water as i thought it would just make it
> more gooey than it already was. AND i mixed it with my hands which were
> warm too....

Actually, you had me totally confused with the recipe. I have never heard of
making a pie dough recipe using organic coconut butter. That is not to say that
it can't be done, just that there are basic pie dough recipes using other types
of shortening and they might be a better place to start for a first try.

I almost always use Crisco shortening and follow the recipe on the box, and it
works great for me. I have made it with lard too, and I have made other types of
pastry crust with butter.

Everything does not have to be cold. Crisco cuts in nicely at room temperature.
The trick is to cut it into the salted flour until there are still small pieces,
which is why I prefer to do it by hand rather than with a food processor. The
water should be ice cold. After it forms into a ball, I cut the ball in half,
wrap each ball in waxed paper and form discs and stick them into the fridge while
I prepare the filling.

Nancy Young wrote:
> "Mary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >I suggest you throw it out -- perhaps some birds or other critters will
> > enjoy it -- and start over with a standard recipe. Both Joy of Cooking
> > and Betty Crocker have very good directions for beginners with pie
> > crust.
> >
>
> Maybe she could make cookies with it? Add this or
> that and salvage it?

i am going to try using part for a crisp topping mixed with some spices
and chopped nuts and oats and brown sugar. i have a bag of old sesame
seeds and some old walnuts that i may mix with rest of the dough
provided it chops up ok, and bake it and feed the birds outside. thanks
for the ideas! myraide

>
> nancy

On Thu 08 Sep 2005 02:15:36p, Dave Smith wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> Myraide wrote:
>
>> ok i see my major mistake. not having EVERYTHING really cold. and then
>> when mixed, i did not add the water as i thought it would just make it
>> more gooey than it already was. AND i mixed it with my hands which were
>> warm too....
>
> Actually, you had me totally confused with the recipe. I have never
> heard of making a pie dough recipe using organic coconut butter. That is
> not to say that it can't be done, just that there are basic pie dough
> recipes using other types of shortening and they might be a better place
> to start for a first try.

No reason you can't use coconut better, or any other solid fat. If that's
what you plan to use ongoing, thenyou might as well learn how to work with
from the beginning.

> I almost always use Crisco shortening and follow the recipe on the box,
> and it works great for me. I have made it with lard too, and I have
> made other types of pastry crust with butter.

I almost always use a mixture of butter and lard for pie pastry, and I use
both chilled. I do keep Crisco on hand and use it occasionally for pie
pastry when I'm out of butter and/or lard. Agreed, Crisco does not need to
be chilled in order to work.

> Everything does not have to be cold. Crisco cuts in nicely at room
> temperature. The trick is to cut it into the salted flour until there
> are still small pieces, which is why I prefer to do it by hand rather
> than with a food processor.

I, along with many experts, find that if everything is cold, you are more
likely to have a more successful and flaky crust. Again, Crisco
notwithstanding. It is essential that dairy butter, coconut butter, or
lard be chilled in order to work correctly.

> The water should be ice cold. After it
> forms into a ball, I cut the ball in half, wrap each ball in waxed paper
> and form discs and stick them into the fridge while I prepare the
> filling.

Yep, pretty standard.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four,
unless there are three other people.

at Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:07:23 GMT in
.com>,
(Myraide) wrote :

>
>Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>> On Wed 07 Sep 2005 06:18:35p, Myraide wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>>
>> > hi, just read the thread here about *pie crust help*. wish i had
>> > read it two days ago! :(
>> >
>> > i attempted to make the dough, and used two cubes of organic butter
>> > and four oz of organic coconut butter from a jar, it is solid at
>> > room temp.

2 cubes? By that do you mean 16 tbsp (8 oz), 2 lbs (if what you had were solid
1-lb bricks), or 1 lb (i.e. 2 8 oz cubes)? If the first, which I think is the
most likely, that would have been 12 oz fat to 3 cups (about 13.5 oz) flour - a
little light on the fat but not too bad. If one of the latter cases, however,
you had considerably more - way too much in the second case.

>> > but i didnt realize everything had to be COLD so i had the butter
>> > and coconut butter at room temp and mixed by hand into three cups
>> > flour. needless to say, it was a gooey mess, so i added another cup
>> > of flour, and left out the water,...

So adding another cup of flour would get you to about 18 oz flour, (presumably)
12 oz fat. That's lean for pie crust. As has been pointed out, by this point it
was entirely immaterial because the fats had melted into and incorporated with
the fat, which is what must be avoided at all costs in piecrust.

>> > can it be salvaged or toss and start again? it has been in the
>> > fridge since last night. myraide
>>
>> Honestly? I would toss it and start over with both butters being
>> cold...
>
>ok i see my major mistake. not having EVERYTHING really cold. and then
>when mixed, i did not add the water as i thought it would just make it
>more gooey than it already was. AND i mixed it with my hands which were
>warm too....

When making pie crust, in addition to having everything cold, handle it as
little as possible. Using hands is a definite no-no - the only point where
hands should touch the dough is when forming it into a ball for rolling, and
when picking it up to put into the pie dish. But even handling with implements
should be minimised - just enough to cut in fats, mix, and roll - and in each
case, just enough that things aren't falling apart at the end of the process.
You still want pretty big fat lumps at the end of the cutting phase, a dough
with almost no apparent cohesiveness at the end of the mixing phase (when
pressed together, it should *just barely* stay in a ball - probably with some
crumbling) and a finished rolled crust which only just stays whole - you should
have to *ease* it very gently into the pie dish. My crust is usually so
delicate that, in fact, you can't really pick it up, at least not all the way.
What I have is a setup where the pie dish sits on a pull-out cutting board a
few inches below the counter. Then I slide the crust round off the pastry board
sitting on the counter right into the dish.

>
>its still in the fridge. maybe i can chop it up and use it as a base
>for the topping of a crisp? but i will try to bake a bit of it to see
>how it turns out. will probably break teeth, huh? myraide

Why not allow it to warm up back to room temperature, then mix in about 3/4 cup
sugar or so? This would make for a somewhat lean but probably OK shortbread-
like cookie. By adding 2 eggs as well, you could make something near to sugar
cookies. Form into a log and refrigerate the dough once you've mixed everything
in again, then bake at 375F. If you don't use the eggs, bake at a low
temperature - say, 325. If I were doing the eggless shortbread-style rescue,
I'd add 8 tbsp extra butter. In any case, however, I think the cookie-style
salvage is probably the best way to go.


--
Alex Rast

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