OT Japanese Usage
 

Like to watch the first 10 or 15 minutes of Iron Chef, especially when
they're preping big fish. But when they introduce the challenger chef,
his named is printed on the screen as Komico Seiko, for example. But
when the host bellows out his name he calls Seiko Komico. What's with
the reversal?

--

Japanese and Chinese names, family names first, given name(s) last.
We usually flip them to our convention.

"Stark" > wrote in message
...
> Like to watch the first 10 or 15 minutes of Iron Chef, especially when
> they're preping big fish. But when they introduce the challenger chef,
> his named is printed on the screen as Komico Seiko, for example. But
> when the host bellows out his name he calls Seiko Komico. What's with
> the reversal?
>
> --

Stark wrote:

> Like to watch the first 10 or 15 minutes of Iron Chef, especially when
> they're preping big fish. But when they introduce the challenger chef,
> his named is printed on the screen as Komico Seiko, for example. But
> when the host bellows out his name he calls Seiko Komico. What's with
> the reversal?

I think it's common practice for some asian cultures to use the sir name first.

A.C. wrote:
> Stark wrote:
>
> > Like to watch the first 10 or 15 minutes of Iron Chef, especially when
> > they're preping big fish. But when they introduce the challenger chef,
> > his named is printed on the screen as Komico Seiko, for example. But
> > when the host bellows out his name he calls Seiko Komico. What's with
> > the reversal?
>
> I think it's common practice for some asian cultures to use the _sir name_ first.

It's *surname*.

I can see that this is going to be an intelligent thread... NOT!

Sheldon

"A.C." > wrote in message
...
>
> Stark wrote:
>
>> Like to watch the first 10 or 15 minutes of Iron Chef, especially when
>> they're preping big fish. But when they introduce the challenger chef,
>> his named is printed on the screen as Komico Seiko, for example. But
>> when the host bellows out his name he calls Seiko Komico. What's with
>> the reversal?
>
> I think it's common practice for some asian cultures to use the sir name
> first.
>
>

Surname.

--
Peter Aitken
Visit my recipe and kitchen myths page at www.pgacon.com/cooking.htm

"Doug" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Japanese and Chinese names, family names first, given name(s) last.
> We usually flip them to our convention.

Right, although in this case it should be noted that in the
case of one of the Iron Chefs themselves - Chen Kenichi -
the Americanized version leaves his name in the original
form, based on the notion that to most American ears
"Chen Kenichi" SOUNDS more like a "first name, last
name" than would "Kenichi Chen" (which is really what
it should be if you insist on the family name last).

I have always wondered how much trouble this sort of
thing has caused for Morimoto Masaharu (or Masaharu
Morimoto, take your pick), since he's the one original Iron
Chef who is now living in the U.S..

Bob M.

Peter Aitken wrote:

>
> Surname.
>

i stand corrected :-)

"Bob Myers" > wrote in news:ZV5Re.11444
:

>
> "Doug" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>> Japanese and Chinese names, family names first, given name(s) last.
>> We usually flip them to our convention.
>
> Right, although in this case it should be noted that in the
> case of one of the Iron Chefs themselves - Chen Kenichi -
> the Americanized version leaves his name in the original
> form, based on the notion that to most American ears
> "Chen Kenichi" SOUNDS more like a "first name, last
> name" than would "Kenichi Chen" (which is really what
> it should be if you insist on the family name last).
>

On the English-language version of the show they reverse the Japanese names
to conform to English name order standards, but all the Chinese names, such
as Chen's and those of Chinese challengers, are left in the chinese format.

K

A.C. wrote:


> I think it's common practice for some asian cultures to use the sir name
> first.


The 'sir" name? Would that be Seiko-sama instead of Seiko-san?


--
--Steve

Bob Myers wrote:
> I have always wondered how much trouble this sort of
> thing has caused for Morimoto Masaharu (or Masaharu
> Morimoto, take your pick), since he's the one original Iron
> Chef who is now living in the U.S..

Probably not much. He's well known, has his own restaurants (Morimoto)
and is pretty aclimated to American culture.

The thing that wigs me out is that all of our Chinese friends were
given American names by some teacher someplace along the line - and
very few had any choice in the matter. Most of them still go by their
"American" names.

-L.

More than you ever wanted to know!!!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_name
Doug

"Doug" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Japanese and Chinese names, family names first, given name(s) last.
> We usually flip them to our convention.
>
> "Stark" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Like to watch the first 10 or 15 minutes of Iron Chef, especially when
> > they're preping big fish. But when they introduce the challenger chef,
> > his named is printed on the screen as Komico Seiko, for example. But
> > when the host bellows out his name he calls Seiko Komico. What's with
> > the reversal?
> >
> > --
>
>

"Stark" > wrote in message
...
> Like to watch the first 10 or 15 minutes of Iron Chef, especially when
> they're preping big fish. But when they introduce the challenger chef,
> his named is printed on the screen as Komico Seiko, for example. But
> when the host bellows out his name he calls Seiko Komico. What's with
> the reversal?

Generally people in Japan refer to others by their surname followed by a term of
respect (san, = Mr or Mrs. sama = Mr. or Mrs. (pol) , manner, kind,
appearance) or familiarity (kun Mr (junior) (suf), master, boy). The given name
is seldom used.

I work with a Mr. Naruo (given) Uchida (surname) he is almost always referred to
as Uchida san.

In the Eastern European countries people were known by their given name follows
by their fathers given name. As example Anna Ivanivavna = Anna the daughter of
Ivan.

Dimitri

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Dimitri wrote:

>
> "Stark" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Like to watch the first 10 or 15 minutes of Iron Chef, especially when
>> they're preping big fish. But when they introduce the challenger chef,
>> his named is printed on the screen as Komico Seiko, for example. But
>> when the host bellows out his name he calls Seiko Komico. What's with
>> the reversal?
>
> Generally people in Japan refer to others by their surname followed by a term of
> respect (san, = Mr or Mrs. sama = Mr. or Mrs. (pol) , manner, kind,
> appearance) or familiarity (kun Mr (junior) (suf), master, boy). The given name
> is seldom used.
>
> I work with a Mr. Naruo (given) Uchida (surname) he is almost always referred to
> as Uchida san.

In Japan, the Surname comes first. As in most Asian countries. given
names are used to talk about close friends and relatives. If you want to
give the impression of formality (and, trust me, unless you've known
someone for a long time, you do.), you generally use -san.

Sama is something that is not considered "polite". it is beyond "polite".
it is calling someone royalty.

> In the Eastern European countries people were known by their given name follows
> by their fathers given name. As example Anna Ivanivavna = Anna the daughter of
> Ivan.

I've noticed, when reading dostoyevsky, that russian names tend to be
entirely too complicated. three different last names, depending on what
you want to use (if someone's russian on here, and feels like illuminating
my ignorance, i'd appreciate it)

lena

"Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Dimitri wrote:
>
>>
>> "Stark" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Like to watch the first 10 or 15 minutes of Iron Chef, especially when
>>> they're preping big fish. But when they introduce the challenger chef,
>>> his named is printed on the screen as Komico Seiko, for example. But
>>> when the host bellows out his name he calls Seiko Komico. What's with
>>> the reversal?
>>
>> Generally people in Japan refer to others by their surname followed by a
>> term of
>> respect (san, = Mr or Mrs. sama = Mr. or Mrs. (pol) , manner, kind,
>> appearance) or familiarity (kun Mr (junior) (suf), master, boy). The
>> given name
>> is seldom used.
>>
>> I work with a Mr. Naruo (given) Uchida (surname) he is almost always
>> referred to
>> as Uchida san.
>
> In Japan, the Surname comes first. As in most Asian countries. given
> names are used to talk about close friends and relatives. If you want to
> give the impression of formality (and, trust me, unless you've known
> someone for a long time, you do.), you generally use -san.
>
> Sama is something that is not considered "polite". it is beyond "polite".
> it is calling someone royalty.
>
>> In the Eastern European countries people were known by their given name
>> follows
>> by their fathers given name. As example Anna Ivanivavna = Anna the
>> daughter of
>> Ivan.
>
> I've noticed, when reading dostoyevsky, that russian names tend to be
> entirely too complicated. three different last names, depending on what
> you want to use (if someone's russian on here, and feels like illuminating
> my ignorance, i'd appreciate it)
>
> lena

Maybe not quite an answer, but in German families, many have their baptismal
given name as well as the given name they use everyday. Sometimes on court
records, they might use their offical 'baptismal' name which will greatly
confuse genealogy descendancy. Some families might have the same given name
and be called another given name. My grandmother and her sister both had
the name of Isabelle. One was called Isabelle, the other Josephine.
This is not exactly like the Russian names you mention above (3 of them),
but perhaps it's a bit like Americans use of the mother's maiden name for
the middle name of a child; perhaps they used the mother's maiden name and
the father's mother's maiden name; hence 3 names.
Nowadays with the advent of genealogy software, when I read any historical
non-fiction books, I use my genealogy software program to enter their
relationships. European royalty did a lot of marrying into their own
families. I used to have to do this in a little notebook --
Dee Dee

On Wed, 30 Aug 2005, -L. wrote:

>
> Bob Myers wrote:
>> I have always wondered how much trouble this sort of
>> thing has caused for Morimoto Masaharu (or Masaharu
>> Morimoto, take your pick), since he's the one original Iron
>> Chef who is now living in the U.S..
>
> Probably not much. He's well known, has his own restaurants (Morimoto)
> and is pretty aclimated to American culture.
>
> The thing that wigs me out is that all of our Chinese friends were
> given American names by some teacher someplace along the line - and
> very few had any choice in the matter. Most of them still go by their
> "American" names.

I know a guy like that. I can't pronounce his Chinese name. Why go by a
name where no one can pronounce it? (I'm generally good with languages,
but my grasp of tones is poor).

Lena

"Amarantha" > wrote in message
. 244.170...
> > Right, although in this case it should be noted that in the
> > case of one of the Iron Chefs themselves - Chen Kenichi -
> > the Americanized version leaves his name in the original
> > form, based on the notion that to most American ears
> > "Chen Kenichi" SOUNDS more like a "first name, last
> > name" than would "Kenichi Chen" (which is really what
> > it should be if you insist on the family name last).
> >
>
> On the English-language version of the show they reverse the Japanese
names
> to conform to English name order standards, but all the Chinese names,
such
> as Chen's and those of Chinese challengers, are left in the chinese
format.

Yes, but the reason for doing this is as I stated - most often,
Chinese names given surname-first (which is not just the
Chinese format, but common to a number of Eastern
cultures) will SOUND better (i.e., "as expected") to
American (and other Western) ears. "Chen Kenichi" simply
sounds better to Americans than "Kenichi Chen," which if
you listen closely to the original Japanese dialogue (when
audible, as is often the case with Kaga) or read the printed
version of his name is the way he's referred to on the show.

Adding to the confusion is the fact that many Chinese who deal
regularly with Westerners will often adopt a "Western"
given name, to use on their business cards and in any other
dealings with us. I recall quite clearly being unsuccessful
in suppressing my amusement in one such case, and then
having to explain why the choice of the name "Peter" might
not have been the best one to make, when one's family
name might be Romanized as "Pan"....:-)

Bob M.

Lena B Katz wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Dimitri wrote:
>
> >
> > "Stark" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Like to watch the first 10 or 15 minutes of Iron Chef, especially when
> >> they're preping big fish. But when they introduce the challenger chef,
> >> his named is printed on the screen as Komico Seiko, for example. But
> >> when the host bellows out his name he calls Seiko Komico. What's with
> >> the reversal?
> >
> > Generally people in Japan refer to others by their surname followed by a term of
> > respect (san, = Mr or Mrs. sama = Mr. or Mrs. (pol) , manner, kind,
> > appearance) or familiarity (kun Mr (junior) (suf), master, boy). The given name
> > is seldom used.
> >
> > I work with a Mr. Naruo (given) Uchida (surname) he is almost always referred to
> > as Uchida san.
>
> In Japan, the Surname comes first. As in most Asian countries. given
> names are used to talk about close friends and relatives. If you want to
> give the impression of formality (and, trust me, unless you've known
> someone for a long time, you do.), you generally use -san.
>
> Sama is something that is not considered "polite". it is beyond "polite".
> it is calling someone royalty.
>
> > In the Eastern European countries people were known by their given name follows
> > by their fathers given name. As example Anna Ivanivavna = Anna the daughter of
> > Ivan.
>
> I've noticed, when reading dostoyevsky, that russian names tend to be
> entirely too complicated. three different last names, depending on what
> you want to use (if someone's russian on here, and feels like illuminating
> my ignorance, i'd appreciate it)
>
> lena

A Russian name generally has three parts: a given name, a patronymic,
and a family name.

The given name is like a first name in English. Most male names end in
a consonant, and most female names end in the sound "a".

The patronymic is the one that's unusual from an English perspective.
It's name that is based on the person's father's name. It's generally
formed by taking the father's name and adding -ovich for a man, or
adding -ovna for a woman (these endings can change to -yevich and
-yevna if the father's name ends in a "soft" consonant).

The family name is like a surname in English. For a woman, the sound
"a" is tacked on to the end of the surname, but it's considered to be
the same surname. There are also some surnames that end in -sky (or
-ski or -skiy, depending on the transliteration). This changes to
-skaya for a woman.

Some examples:

Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin

His given name is Vladimir, his father's name is also Vladimir, and his
family name is Putin. His daughter is Yekaterina Vladimirovna Putina.

Anna Sergeyevna Kournikova

Her given name is Anna, her father's name is Sergei, and her family
name is Kournikova (or Kurnikova if you want a more accurate
transliteration). Her father's last name would have been Kournikov.

The most common way for two adults to refer to each other is by their
first name and their patronymic. The patronymic would be dropped only
in the case of a very close relationship. Using the last name would
generally be seen as being extremely formal.

> wrote in message
ups.com...

<snip>

> A Russian name generally has three parts: a given name, a patronymic,
> and a family name.
>
> The given name is like a first name in English. Most male names end in
> a consonant, and most female names end in the sound "a".
>
> The patronymic is the one that's unusual from an English perspective.
> It's name that is based on the person's father's name. It's generally
> formed by taking the father's name and adding -ovich for a man, or
> adding -ovna for a woman (these endings can change to -yevich and
> -yevna if the father's name ends in a "soft" consonant).
>
> The family name is like a surname in English. For a woman, the sound
> "a" is tacked on to the end of the surname, but it's considered to be
> the same surname. There are also some surnames that end in -sky (or
> -ski or -skiy, depending on the transliteration). This changes to
> -skaya for a woman.
>
> Some examples:
>
> Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin
>
> His given name is Vladimir, his father's name is also Vladimir, and his
> family name is Putin. His daughter is Yekaterina Vladimirovna Putina.
>
> Anna Sergeyevna Kournikova
>
> Her given name is Anna, her father's name is Sergei, and her family
> name is Kournikova (or Kurnikova if you want a more accurate
> transliteration). Her father's last name would have been Kournikov.
>
> The most common way for two adults to refer to each other is by their
> first name and their patronymic. The patronymic would be dropped only
> in the case of a very close relationship. Using the last name would
> generally be seen as being extremely formal.


And to further complicate the process in Spanish they use the Mothers family
name as well e.g., Orazio De Mansi Tasser

Given Name Orazio
Surname De Mansi
Mothers surname Tasser


Dimitri Georgivitch.

Lena B Katz wrote:

>
> I know a guy like that. I can't pronounce his Chinese name. Why go by
> a name where no one can pronounce it? (I'm generally good with
> languages, but my grasp of tones is poor).
>
> Lena

No one? Not even other Chinese? Right. Don;t assume the rest of the
world suffers from your limitation on this.


jim

Bob Myers wrote:
> "Amarantha" > wrote in message
> . 244.170...
>
>>>Right, although in this case it should be noted that in the
>>>case of one of the Iron Chefs themselves - Chen Kenichi -
>>>the Americanized version leaves his name in the original
>>>form, based on the notion that to most American ears
>>>"Chen Kenichi" SOUNDS more like a "first name, last
>>>name" than would "Kenichi Chen" (which is really what
>>>it should be if you insist on the family name last).
>>>
>>
>>On the English-language version of the show they reverse the Japanese
>
> names
>
>>to conform to English name order standards, but all the Chinese names,
>
> such
>
>>as Chen's and those of Chinese challengers, are left in the chinese
>
> format.
>
> Yes, but the reason for doing this is as I stated - most often,
> Chinese names given surname-first (which is not just the
> Chinese format, but common to a number of Eastern
> cultures) will SOUND better (i.e., "as expected") to
> American (and other Western) ears. "Chen Kenichi" simply
> sounds better to Americans than "Kenichi Chen," which if
> you listen closely to the original Japanese dialogue (when
> audible, as is often the case with Kaga) or read the printed
> version of his name is the way he's referred to on the show.
>
> Adding to the confusion is the fact that many Chinese who deal
> regularly with Westerners will often adopt a "Western"
> given name, to use on their business cards and in any other
> dealings with us. I recall quite clearly being unsuccessful
> in suppressing my amusement in one such case, and then
> having to explain why the choice of the name "Peter" might
> not have been the best one to make, when one's family
> name might be Romanized as "Pan"....:-)
>
> Bob M.
>
>

One of my Korean colleagues uses "Strider" in the US instead of his
actual name.


jim

Lena B Katz wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Aug 2005, -L. wrote:
>
> >
> > Bob Myers wrote:
> >> I have always wondered how much trouble this sort of
> >> thing has caused for Morimoto Masaharu (or Masaharu
> >> Morimoto, take your pick), since he's the one original Iron
> >> Chef who is now living in the U.S..
> >
> > Probably not much. He's well known, has his own restaurants (Morimoto)
> > and is pretty aclimated to American culture.
> >
> > The thing that wigs me out is that all of our Chinese friends were
> > given American names by some teacher someplace along the line - and
> > very few had any choice in the matter. Most of them still go by their
> > "American" names.
>
> I know a guy like that. I can't pronounce his Chinese name. Why go by a
> name where no one can pronounce it? (I'm generally good with languages,
> but my grasp of tones is poor).
>
> Lena

I suspect that's why they do so. What's sad, though, is one of our
friends' daughter has eschewed everything Chinese - doesn't want to be
called by her Chinese name - which is actually very pretty and easy to
pronounce - and insists on being called "Vicki" which is some name some
teacher gave her, as well. Just so sad to lose that part of your
culture, IMO, since it *is* her name, afterall.

-L.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, JimLane wrote:

> Lena B Katz wrote:
>
>>
>> I know a guy like that. I can't pronounce his Chinese name. Why go by a
>> name where no one can pronounce it? (I'm generally good with languages,
>> but my grasp of tones is poor).
>>
>> Lena
>
> No one? Not even other Chinese? Right. Don;t assume the rest of the world
> suffers from your limitation on this.

I would imagine that the Chinese whose native language is Arabic would
also have trouble with pronouncing Mandarin. Don't assume that all
Chinese are alike, it's a big country. :-)

this whimsical post brought to you by:

Lena

p.s. of course people whose native language is the same generally don't
have trouble pronouncing someone's name.

Lena B Katz wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, JimLane wrote:
>
>> Lena B Katz wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I know a guy like that. I can't pronounce his Chinese name. Why go
>>> by a name where no one can pronounce it? (I'm generally good with
>>> languages, but my grasp of tones is poor).
>>>
>>> Lena
>>
>>
>> No one? Not even other Chinese? Right. Don;t assume the rest of the
>> world suffers from your limitation on this.
>
>
> I would imagine that the Chinese whose native language is Arabic would
> also have trouble with pronouncing Mandarin. Don't assume that all
> Chinese are alike, it's a big country. :-)
>
> this whimsical post brought to you by:
>
> Lena
>
> p.s. of course people whose native language is the same generally don't
> have trouble pronouncing someone's name.


Isn't that what I said?


jim