Ok i was bored to hear the greeks stole this, stole that from turkish
and bla,bla,bla.
We are in these are greece from 3000 before christ until 2005 in that
time many things happened.
In the end of Byzantine Empire 1453 the turkish assaulted and
contantinouple and greece for 400 years until 1821.
In 400 years don't you think that the greek and turkish culture mixed
up and greeks took a lot of things from turkish and they took all of
thing from Greeks? So nobody steal from anybody the cultures mixed up
and greeks take things from turkish and they evolute them and you will
see many similarities between cultures. And don't forget that greece is
in south east europe that means more near in egypt, arabic countries
turkish so the greek culture interacts that kind of cultures. If greece
was next to england of north europe countries would interact with them.
But with the globalization effect would be everything american
hamburger and stupidity.

Ok i was bored to hear the greeks stole this, stole that from turkish
and bla,bla,bla.
We are in these are greece from 3000 before christ until 2005 in that
time many things happened.
In the end of Byzantine Empire 1453 the turkish assaulted and
contantinouple and greece for 400 years until 1821.
In 400 years don't you think that the greek and turkish culture mixed
up and greeks took a lot of things from turkish and they took all of
thing from Greeks? So nobody steal from anybody the cultures mixed up
and greeks take things from turkish and they evolute them and you will
see many similarities between cultures. And don't forget that greece is
in south east europe that means more near in egypt, arabic countries
turkish so the greek culture interacts that kind of cultures. If greece
was next to england of north europe countries would interact with them.
But with the globalization effect would be everything american
hamburger and stupidity.

Ok i was bored to hear the greeks stole this, stole that from turkish
and bla,bla,bla.
We are in these are greece from 3000 before christ until 2005 in that
time many things happened.
In the end of Byzantine Empire 1453 the turkish assaulted and
contantinouple and greece for 400 years until 1821.
In 400 years don't you think that the greek and turkish culture mixed
up and greeks took a lot of things from turkish and they took all of
thing from Greeks? So nobody steal from anybody the cultures mixed up
and greeks take things from turkish and they evolute them and you will
see many similarities between cultures. And don't forget that greece is
in south east europe that means more near in egypt, arabic countries
turkish so the greek culture interacts that kind of cultures. If greece
was next to england of north europe countries would interact with them.
But with the globalization effect would be everything american
hamburger and stupidity.

Ok i was bored to hear the greeks stole this, stole that from turkish
and bla,bla,bla.
We are in these are greece from 3000 before christ until 2005 in that
time many things happened.
In the end of Byzantine Empire 1453 the turkish assaulted and
contantinouple and greece for 400 years until 1821.
In 400 years don't you think that the greek and turkish culture mixed
up and greeks took a lot of things from turkish and they took all of
thing from Greeks? So nobody steal from anybody the cultures mixed up
and greeks take things from turkish and they evolute them and you will
see many similarities between cultures. And don't forget that greece is
in south east europe that means more near in egypt, arabic countries
turkish so the greek culture interacts that kind of cultures. If greece
was next to england of north europe countries would interact with them.
But with the globalization effect would be everything american
hamburger and stupidity.

Ok i was bored to hear the greeks stole this, stole that from turkish
and bla,bla,bla.
We are in these are greece from 3000 before christ until 2005 in that
time many things happened.
In the end of Byzantine Empire 1453 the turkish assaulted and
contantinouple and greece for 400 years until 1821.
In 400 years don't you think that the greek and turkish culture mixed
up and greeks took a lot of things from turkish and they took all of
thing from Greeks? So nobody steal from anybody the cultures mixed up
and greeks take things from turkish and they evolute them and you will
see many similarities between cultures. And don't forget that greece is
in south east europe that means more near in egypt, arabic countries
turkish so the greek culture interacts that kind of cultures. If greece
was next to england of north europe countries would interact with them.
But with the globalization effect would be everything american
hamburger and stupidity.

Oh, but if you read marktrivers version, it says the Turks were mere
illiterate peasants and the Ottoman rulers were Greek, Armenian and
Serb Janissaries. Even the sultans had Christian mothers he says
So which one is it?
Get your stories straight tourkala-yavru-budala!
And RAKI is not ouzo. Real Raki only has 0.15% alcohol according to CNN
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/eu...eut/index.html

P.S. when you eat your Fez, wash it down with some bootleg RAKI and do
us all a favor. I heard they have some great deals on Yeni Raki!

Dorian West wrote:
> Where are you to take the racists to task Henry, you ****ing
> Jewish-Turkish-Mongol ****??? It seems you only attack me, one of
> Hellenism's greatest defenders. Why is that Jew-Mongol? I can't help
the
> cards God dealt you? Being a Jew and related to the Mongols must be a

> terrible cross to bear and I did say cross Jew fag.

A Greek calling someone else a fag????
That's the funniest thing I've read in years!



>
> Why do you hang around in Greek NGs? Mossad, the Turkish SS? Jews and

> Muslims are the beasts of humanity, not Greeks. Middle eastern mud
people
> are synonymous with torture, murder, terrorism, extortion, rape and
all form
> of criminality.
>
> "A Total Moron's Guide to Cinema" > wrote in
message
> oups.com...
> > can you tell a greek from a turk these days? During 3 centuries of
> > Turkish rule, turks did alot of fuc*ing. most greek women gave
birth
> > to half-turkish babies. in fact, most greeks are dark, hairy, and
> > asiatic looking. they sho aint the tall blonde gods they once was.
> >
>
> "Henry Hooray" > wrote in
message
> ...
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >>
> >> Most, if not all, items of so called Greek cuisine has been stolen
from
> >> Turkish cuisine.
> >
> > Perhaps "stolen" isn't the appropriate word you are looking for,
> > marktrivers.
> >
> > Perhaps you were trying to say that the Greeks were influenced by
Turkish
> > cuisine during the long, unwanted and cruel occupation of most of
Greece
> > by the Turks.
> >
> > Was that what you were trying to say, marktrivers?
> >
> > Henry.
> >

Hackman submitted this idea :
> Dorian West wrote:
>> Where are you to take the racists to task Henry, you ****ing
>> Jewish-Turkish-Mongol ****??? It seems you only attack me, one of
>> Hellenism's greatest defenders. Why is that Jew-Mongol? I can't help the
>> cards God dealt you? Being a Jew and related to the Mongols must be a
>
>> terrible cross to bear and I did say cross Jew fag.
>
> A Greek calling someone else a fag????
> That's the funniest thing I've read in years!

That is what you said when you deepthroated my 9" ) cock.And next
time you swallow
you little faggot bitch

--
Skopian=Turk

On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:14:02 -0500 (EST), "Tony Brutto"
> wrote:

>A Total Moron's Guide to Cinema wrote:
>
>> i've tried leg of lamb, mousaka, and other stuff. all great but
>nothing
>> beats gyros.
>
>I would think that souvlaki is the best.
>Have you been to Pantheon?
>You will never want to go elsewhere.
>
Geek food is better - here's what my shopping basket contains -

one tub of Ben&Jerry's french toffee vanilla ice cream
one large container of candied corn
one jar of "Fluff" marshmellow goo
three cartons of chocolate milk
4 caramilk bars
a box of blueberry eggos
nutella hazelnut chocolate spread
3 fozen burritos
bag of chocolate covered peanuts
2L bottle of dr. pepper
box of fruit loops
one "Enquirer"
one "Shape" magazine

http://www.geocities.com/bingo3539/about_john.html

First things first, karapanomanolokopoulos.

The origin of citrus fruit is the far east, and not the Mediterranean. In
fact mandarins got their name because only Chinese mandarins had the right
to grow mandarins in their orchards. Other Chinese could only cultivate
mandarins on pain of death.

Lemons of course are part of the citrus family of fruits but also bear in
mind that lemons are not the only things used to add tartness to food.
Witness lemon grass used in far eastern cooking.

What you call Mediterranean vegetables in fact have various origins. For
example, the Fasolia that you consider your national dish is of Latin
American origin. See
http://www.museums.org.za/bio/plants...s_vulgaris.htm

No doubt you eat plenty of beans and speak accordingly. <G>

And as for fruit, cherries for example are also of Chinese origin. And fish
exist in rivers and lakes all over the world.

Look things up boy. Look things up and don't assume that what have become
common vegetables and fruits in Greece are of Greek origin. Neither am I
saying that they are of Turkish origin. Can be just sensible and not bring
narrow minded fanaticism into the domain of the kitchen and the cuisine.

But yes, I'll admit that Tomatoes and Potatoes are of Greek origin. After
all the whole world calls them by their ancient Greek names: Ntomates &
Mpatates. Fair's fair. Ain't that right?
--
choro-nik
********

"karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> "Most, if not all"? Where did you get lemons, and all the meditteranean
> vegetables and fish in the central asian steppes?
> Besides, your versions of our dishes are attrocious!
>
> Greeks, bitch about Turks? That's a laugh! Like you don't have enough
> problems of your own?
> BTW, you are the biggest bitch on wheels, bitching about Greeks 24/7 in
> this NG posting garbage day in and day out!
> You think you're smart but you're so dumb! Get a clue and get a life
> marktrivers.
>

Dr. Dog wrote:
> wrote:
> > try some souvlaki (kebab), it's better than gyro guaranteed.
>
> I agree, as a former habitue of Toronto's Danforth. It's what I
always
> ended up ordering. I like moussaka, but it's such a pain in the ass
to
---------------

Of course it is! It's GREEK!!!


> make!
>
> Skylos

And one backward, hooknosed EASTERN Armenian who would dearly love to
be a German but isn't is getting his wimpy little arse kicked by
them..........AGAIN !

Mwaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhaar

Tell us more of your *** rape stories Roman, your life experience as a
GASTARBEITER are valuable to the Griks in here

You still appear to be mixing your Kurds with your Turks Herr
Romanazian

Perhaps because of your close proximity to Berlin ?

*LMFAOAY*

Mousaka might be a pain in the ass to make for a Greek. For one thing, it is
a dish borrowed from the Turkish cuisine. <G>

If you want to look it up, in Turkish it is spelt Musakka. BTW, though
Musakka is nowadays oven cooked and covered with a layer of white sauce
which is neither Greek nor Turkish but French, there is the original version
of Musakka which is more like a casserole and which is cooked in a saucepan.
Here is a recipe for this delicious Musakka.

Fry some minced lamb or any other lean meat until it changes color. Fry or
rather sauté one medium finely chopped onion until it wilts and becomes
translucent. You can add the meat to the onion or the other way round OR
when the minced lamb is half ready add the finely chopped onion and continue
frying the two together. With this latter method, you might have to add just
a bit of oil if the meat is very lean. Use groundnut oil or a mixture of
groundnut oil and olive oil. Or any other oil such as sunflower or maize
oil.

One important note he -- Add some finely chopped parsley to the fried
meat at the last moment and take off the heat.

Peel the potatoes and chop them into rounds around 2 to 3 mm thick as though
preparing them for sort of thick English crisps or American chips. You can
fry or rather sauté them in a large saucepan until they have turned golden
and beginning to brown. However, a wok or the flatter Turkish "sac"
(pronounced sach -- the c has a cedilla) would be better as you can use less
oil to fry the potatoes. Frying the potatoes in 2 or 3 goes will naturally
require a lot less cooking oil.

Once the potatoes are ready , you put a layer of fried potatoes and a later
of the fried minced meat at the bottom of a suitably sized saucepan and
repeat this until you have used all the ingredients. Top the layers with
some hot stock. Cover the pan and cook over gentle heat for around 20
minutes.

You can of course, use a bit of imagination and substitute some aubergine,
courgettes etc for the potatoes or in addition to the potatoes.

Serve with a Mediterranean salad and maybe some tender chillies. And don't
forget a salt dip for the chillies. Spring onions and maybe a few olives are
another favorite of mine with this dish.

If you want bread on the table, make sure it is fresh and crusty which you
can break with your hands a la peasante.

I know it is too much of a bother and I would never cook this for one
person. But it makes sense when you are cooking for a family. It is at its
best eaten within half an hour after it is done while the potatoes still
have that fried taste.
--
choro-nik
********

"Dr. Dog" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> wrote:
>> try some souvlaki (kebab), it's better than gyro guaranteed.
>
> I agree, as a former habitue of Toronto's Danforth. It's what I always
> ended up ordering. I like moussaka, but it's such a pain in the ass to
> make!
>
> Skylos
>

"Seanie O'Kilfoyle" >
oups.com...
>
>
> Nope
>
> When Griks STEAL something, like history or shish kebabs, they
> invariably re-brand it first, giving it a Grik name and THEN they claim
> it always WAS.... IS and WILL BE Grik
>
> THIEVES !
>
> Now Henry, if you ever hear a Grik who's just served you a tasty
> platter of Kleftiko ( real name Kuzu Firin ) explain that the Turkish
> meal you just ate was absorbed into grik quisine during the half
> Millennia that grease was an Ottoman province......and the OUZO you
> washed it down with ( Real name RAKI ) was adopted at the same time...
>
> I'll eat my Fez !
>



tiurks r anemales savaj.tiurks speak only bad language lik this 1.this
anemal tiurk is Al Qaeda.no eu 4 u tirks anemales islamistas y teroristas

"Seanie O'Kilfoyle" >
oups.com...
>
>
> True ! but you forget that the *******ised Turko-Grik babies which you
> speak of were also raped by hordes of Albanians, Serbs & Vlachs to boot
>
> The most hilarios thing a westerner can witness is a stumpy litte dark
> Grik midget try to compare himself to some Mythical Blonde Nordic Gods
>
> Mbouharharharharharharharharharharharharharharhar
>
> *LOLOL*
>



feckin tiurk spamer.feckin tiurk anemal.tiurks r good only to sepak bad
language.he is Al Qaeda.tiurks almost kiled Pope.no eu 4 u tiurks islamistas
y teroristas

"Seanie O'Kilfoyle" >
oups.com...
>
>
> How CUTE !
>
> An Eastern Armenian SPELLCHEKKUR !
>
> Mwaaahahahahahahahahaharharhar
>
> Spelchekurian
>
> *LMFAOAY*
>


just 1 word.he is a tiurk anemal.tiurks can only speak bad language.tiurks r
Al Qaeda.no eu 4 u tiurks anemales islamistas y teroristas

"Seanie O'Kilfoyle" >
oups.com...
>
>
> And one backward, hooknosed EASTERN Armenian who would dearly love to
> be a German but isn't is getting his wimpy little arse kicked by
> them..........AGAIN !
>
> Mwaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhaar
>
> Tell us more of your *** rape stories Roman, your life experience as a
> GASTARBEITER are valuable to the Griks in here
>




u r a tiurk rasista.tiurks r anemales savaj.tiurks r sotosvilupados.tiurks
speak only bad language.tiurks lik this 1 r todos Al Qaeda.no eu 4 u tirks
islamistas y teroristas

"Seanie O'Kilfoyle" >
oups.com...
>
>
> You still appear to be mixing your Kurds with your Turks Herr
> Romanazian
>
> Perhaps because of your close proximity to Berlin ?
>
> *LMFAOAY*
>




u r a tiurk rasista.tiurks r anemales savaj.tiurks r sotosvilupados.tiurks
speak only bad language.tiurks lik this 1 r todos Al Qaeda.no eu 4 u tirks
islamistas y teroristas

His spirit lives on!
--
choro-nik
********

"splicer1x" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I thought Stalin killed you in 1940.
>

OK, OK "billias".

We know that you invented "Mpatates kai Ntomates" (Potatoes and Tomatoes). I
am sure you can vouch personally for the fact that you had roast potatoes in
Athens in 1251 BC. You have even got a digital photo of you sitting at that
restaurant in ancient Athens enjoying your Gyros served with roast potatoes
and a tomato salad.

What would be world do without you? I mean you keep eating your "fasolada"
(beans) and come here to break wind.
--
choro-nik
********

"billias" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ok i was bored to hear the greeks stole this, stole that from turkish
> and bla,bla,bla.
> We are in these are greece from 3000 before christ until 2005 in that
> time many things happened.
> In the end of Byzantine Empire 1453 the turkish assaulted and
> contantinouple and greece for 400 years until 1821.
> In 400 years don't you think that the greek and turkish culture mixed
> up and greeks took a lot of things from turkish and they took all of
> thing from Greeks? So nobody steal from anybody the cultures mixed up
> and greeks take things from turkish and they evolute them and you will
> see many similarities between cultures. And don't forget that greece is
> in south east europe that means more near in egypt, arabic countries
> turkish so the greek culture interacts that kind of cultures. If greece
> was next to england of north europe countries would interact with them.
> But with the globalization effect would be everything american
> hamburger and stupidity.
>

See, what did I tell you. You have broken wind three times so far. Go easy
on the "fasolada" beans boy.
--
choro-nik
********

"billias" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ok i was bored to hear the greeks stole this, stole that from turkish
> and bla,bla,bla.
> We are in these are greece from 3000 before christ until 2005 in that
> time many things happened.
> In the end of Byzantine Empire 1453 the turkish assaulted and
> contantinouple and greece for 400 years until 1821.
> In 400 years don't you think that the greek and turkish culture mixed
> up and greeks took a lot of things from turkish and they took all of
> thing from Greeks? So nobody steal from anybody the cultures mixed up
> and greeks take things from turkish and they evolute them and you will
> see many similarities between cultures. And don't forget that greece is
> in south east europe that means more near in egypt, arabic countries
> turkish so the greek culture interacts that kind of cultures. If greece
> was next to england of north europe countries would interact with them.
> But with the globalization effect would be everything american
> hamburger and stupidity.
>

What do you eat when you are at home? Obviously bangers and mash or
McDonalds and chips. I'd give the sack to your partner if I were you. She
obviously doesn't know how to cook.

--
choro-nik
********
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> when I went to Greece all I ate was gyros. You think they are good
> here . . . well you havent a good one then becuas they are absolutely
> amazing. We were in IOS and we went to this local hole in the whole 2x
> a day. We would eat them when we were not even hungry
>

Seanie O'Kilfoyle writes:

> You still appear to be mixing your Kurds with your Turks Herr
> Romanazian
>
> Perhaps because of your close proximity to Berlin ?
>
> *LMFAOAY*

You Turks don't like being called toilet cleaners? LOL They must have clean
toilets in Berlin! Lots of Turks there.

Learn to face the truth about your real talents, Turk! <BG>

Seanie O'Kilfoyle writes:

> And one backward, hooknosed EASTERN Armenian who would dearly love to
> be a German but isn't is getting his wimpy little arse kicked by
> them..........AGAIN !
>
> Mwaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhaar
>
> Tell us more of your *** rape stories Roman, your life experience as a
> GASTARBEITER are valuable to the Griks in here

You seem to be some sort of smarter Turk! Come on, do us a favor, you tell
us some stories! We know, you Turks know a lot. Turks are known world-wide
for their intellect! And you will prove it now! Bruahahahahahaaaa....

wrote:

> try some souvlaki (kebab), it's better than gyro guaranteed.

I agree.

Some of the posters in this thread are very funny.

If you go back about 100,000 years, everybody's
ancestor was African.

,

--

Nothing is the way it is because that is the way it has to be.

1 HP = 745.69987158227022 Watts
1 PS = 735.49875 Watts

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm - Current national
debt
On 11/02/2004 the National Debt was $7,429,582,471,118.88
On 02/24/2005 the National Debt was $7,717,009,809,507.08 , up 288
billion in the 3 months and 22 days since the last Presidential election.

http://www.ips-dc.org - The nation’s oldest multi-issue
progressive think tank.

http://brookings.edu - Writing, and speaking about the major
challenges and opportunities facing the United States and the world.

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between nations and promoting active international engagement by the
United States.

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http://www.norml.com - Support marijuana legalization by
becoming a member of NORML.

http://www.mpp.org - Support marijuana legalization by
becoming a member of MPP.

http://narconews.com - Learn about the South of the Border drug
war.


FOUR MORE YEARS to a 10 trillion dollar national debt! (
$10,000,000,000,000.00 )!

FOUR MORE YEARS until 20% of the federal budget is interest payments on
the debt!







..

i'll give you the gyros part, but most of what you say isn't based on
fact.....the greek cuisine has more of a mediterranean flavor while the
turkish cuisine has a middle eastern flavor...and you won't find pork
on a turkish menu no matter how hard you look, but after reading some
of your other posts you seem to have a hatred of greeks for some
reason......greek people in general are far more social and friendly
than turks will ever be, bill cosby once said "of all the nationalities
in europe, the greeks had the best sense of humour and had a zest for
living that was unmatched"

xntrick writes:

> but after reading some
> of your other posts you seem to have a hatred of greeks for some
> reason......

He is a Turk hiding behind a Western sounding name. There are more here
like that. All completely batty and suffering from this huge inferiority
complex because they are Turks. Well, hear them talking and you'll see
that their inferiority complex is justified! <BG>

It would be nice to know who you are responding to. This thread has got so
many postings that unless you leave at list a line or two of the posting you
are responding to, it becomes very difficult to find out. So in future,
please leave at least a line or two including the nick of the person you are
responding to.

You were not responding to me, I hope. For I don't really have a hatred of
Greeks even though I react strongly to what some individual Greek posters
say.
--
choro-nik
********

"xntrick" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> i'll give you the gyros part, but most of what you say isn't based on
> fact.....the greek cuisine has more of a mediterranean flavor while the
> turkish cuisine has a middle eastern flavor...and you won't find pork
> on a turkish menu no matter how hard you look, but after reading some
> of your other posts you seem to have a hatred of greeks for some
> reason......greek people in general are far more social and friendly
> than turks will ever be, bill cosby once said "of all the nationalities
> in europe, the greeks had the best sense of humour and had a zest for
> living that was unmatched"
>

"Hackman" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Dorian West wrote:
>> Where are you to take the racists to task Henry, you ****ing
>> Jewish-Turkish-Mongol ****??? It seems you only attack me, one of
>> Hellenism's greatest defenders. Why is that Jew-Mongol? I can't help
> the
>> cards God dealt you? Being a Jew and related to the Mongols must be a
>
>> terrible cross to bear and I did say cross Jew fag.
>
> A Greek calling someone else a fag????
> That's the funniest thing I've read in years!

Actually, Dorian West has zero connection with Greece.

He is just an Australian racist.

Henry.

Huh? In no place did I claim that these were Greek. Beans are legumes
not vegetables, tomatoes and potatoes and corn came from America.
Lemongrass has nothing to do with what we're talking about, and while
plentiful in southern Asia, it does not exist in the steppes.
The question was whether Greeks stole the cuisine from Turks. Yet, I've
been to Mongolia too, and I can guarantee you their cuisine is quite a
bit different than Turkish. Plus regardless of the origin of citrus
fruits mongolia has none! They make a variety of kebab, cut in long
ribbons (like thai) and seasoned with cumin. Mongolian barbeque is also
very different. So is what is known as shabu-shabu which is also
Mongolian
Neither do they have olive oil. Fish does exist everywhere, but it's
not prepared with lemon/olive dressing everywhere, and the varieties
are different.
As for preparations with phyllo, are you saying the mongols streched it
in the back of their horses?
You should look things up boy!

> For one thing, it is a dish borrowed from the Turkish cuisine
All the moussaka I saw in Turkey was a miserable mix of oily egplants
and fatty lamb.
No bechamel topping either

> One important note he -- Add some finely chopped parsley to the
fried
>meat at the last moment and take off the heat
Yea, flat leaf parsley is just plentiful in Mongolia!

What are you talking about... preparation of the phyllo in the backs of
horses???!!!

My mum used to prepare the dough on a board using a rolling pin. Didn't know
that your mum stuck up the dough in the back of a horse! Or was it your dad
that stuck it up in the back of a horse?

Sou aresei h fasolada me elies, fresko psomi kai fresko krommidi?
--
choro-nik
********
"karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Huh? In no place did I claim that these were Greek. Beans are legumes
> not vegetables, tomatoes and potatoes and corn came from America.
> Lemongrass has nothing to do with what we're talking about, and while
> plentiful in southern Asia, it does not exist in the steppes.
> The question was whether Greeks stole the cuisine from Turks. Yet, I've
> been to Mongolia too, and I can guarantee you their cuisine is quite a
> bit different than Turkish. Plus regardless of the origin of citrus
> fruits mongolia has none! They make a variety of kebab, cut in long
> ribbons (like thai) and seasoned with cumin. Mongolian barbeque is also
> very different. So is what is known as shabu-shabu which is also
> Mongolian
> Neither do they have olive oil. Fish does exist everywhere, but it's
> not prepared with lemon/olive dressing everywhere, and the varieties
> are different.
> As for preparations with phyllo, are you saying the mongols streched it
> in the back of their horses?
> You should look things up boy!
>

For one thing, Turks might have mixed with Mongolians at some stage in
history but they are not Mongolians. Incidentally, if you study the mass
migrations through history you will find out that there were mass migrations
to both what are now Greece and Turkey as well as into Eastern Europe from
the steppes in Asia in olden days. So what does that make you? You are
certainly not the aboriginal peoples of what is now Greece.

Come, I'll offer you a Turkish coffee in a gesture of friendship. Sorry, I
tried to get some Greek coffee but it doesn't exist apparently. But just
think of it as Greek coffee and be happy. And while you wait while I prepare
the Turkish coffee, would you like some Turkish lokum with roast nuts in
them? If you are not happy with Turkish Lokum just add the letter "i" at the
end of it and presto it becomes Greek Lokumi. And BTW, what sort of nuts
would you like me to roast and add to the lokum/i? I've got a very sharp
knife as good as any surgeons use. How about your very own nuts? That will
truly make the lokum/i truly Greek.

Enjoy!
--
choro-nik
********

"karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> For one thing, it is a dish borrowed from the Turkish cuisine
> All the moussaka I saw in Turkey was a miserable mix of oily egplants
> and fatty lamb.
> No bechamel topping either
>
>> One important note he -- Add some finely chopped parsley to the
> fried
>>meat at the last moment and take off the heat
> Yea, flat leaf parsley is just plentiful in Mongolia!
>

You're avoiding the point choro-nik. You say we stole our cuisine from
the mongols, though I didn't see any of them streching phyllo or
layering eggplants with minced lamb.

>Sou aresei h fasolada me elies, fresko psomi kai fresko krommidi?
Sounds good. Is that Aztec or something?

"karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> You're avoiding the point choro-nik. You say we stole our cuisine from
> the mongols, though I didn't see any of them streching phyllo or
> layering eggplants with minced lamb.

I can't for the life of me understand why it is so difficult for Greeks to
admit that certain Greek dishes were borrowed from the Turkish cuisine. I
mean what is more natural that Greeks and Turks who lived together for
centuries under the Ottomans would borrow not only the culinary arts but
other aspects of life from one another?

Tell me are you rubbishing the maps of mass migrations that show mass
movement of peoples from the Asian steppes into what are now Greece, Turkey
and Eastern Europe? Was Herodotus a liar then? Only the other day I saw a
map by Herodotus with lines drawn indicating these mass migrations into what
are today Greece, Turkey and Eastern Europe. So what does that make of
Greeks?

>
>>Sou aresei h fasolada me elies, fresko psomi kai fresko krommidi?

> Sounds good. Is that Aztec or something?

No. It is not. But it certainly is not an ancient Greek dish either. Bloody
hell! My mouth has already started watering. I could certainly eat some
right now.
--
choro-nik
********

>I can't for the life of me understand why it is so difficult for
Greeks to
>admit that certain Greek dishes were borrowed from the Turkish
cuisine.
Specifically what? Turkish cuisine and culture is a mish-mash of the
people constituting the modern state of Turkey. Are you denying this?

>Greeks and Turks who lived together for centuries under the Ottomans
>would borrow not only the culinary arts but other aspects of life from
one another?
Together? not exactly. Turks settled in large numbers in Thrace, but
not in the rest of Greece. The Turk administration and military lived
in fortifications, and mosques were located within those
fortifications. In my native Mani region, there were no Turks
whatsoever. The same for the neighboring Taygetos mountains and any
mountains in Greece for that matter. Once the Ottomans conquered a land
they did not bother doing anything to it. The Ottoman Empire was
largely inefficient, and even tax collection was loosely enforced.
Priests were the virtual governors of Greek towns. The Patriarchs for
this reason alone even favored the Ottomans over the Venetians. Athens
and Rhodes had their own municipal self government.
By the 17th and 18th century administration was essentially passed on
to the Greeks who recruited even more Greeks.
So this notion that there was this widespread cultural interchange is
questionable at best. If what you say it's true, the similarities would
be with all of Turkey and not just the coastal Turkey where Greeks
lived for centuries before Turks ever set foot. I only ran in to true
Turkic people in central Turkey, and they seemed to have a culture and
lifestyle different than the coastline

>Only the other day I saw a map by Herodotus with lines drawn
indicating
>these mass migrations into what are today Greece, Turkey and Eastern
Europe.
>So what does that make of Greeks?
Which map are you referring to? The world according to Herodotus? The
map is there but I have never seen a version indicating movements.

"karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> >I can't for the life of me understand why it is so difficult for
> Greeks to
>>admit that certain Greek dishes were borrowed from the Turkish
> cuisine.
> Specifically what? Turkish cuisine and culture is a mish-mash of the
> people constituting the modern state of Turkey. Are you denying this?

Turkish cuisine is no more mish mash than other cuisines. Or to put it in
other words all cuisines are mish mash of other cuisines. But having said
this bear in mind that what makes a cuisine is the distinctive or fairly
distinctive end result. That there are regional variations only adds to
rather than detracts from the richness of the Turkish cuisine. What annoys
me are claims that the Greek cuisine is an original cuisine unaffected by
Turkish or other cuisines. There is nothing Greek about the béchamel sauce
topping for MouseKey for example.

I have come across Greeks claiming that tzatziki (djacjik in Turkish written
cacik) is a Greek dish even when you have borrowed the name directly from
Turkish and Greekefied it using Tz for the Turkish dj sound (represented by
the letter c in the Turkish alphabet) when you don't even have that sound in
the Greek alphabet. I mean how come a dish be Greek when its name is
pronounced with a consonant that does not even exist in the Greek language?
And how on earth can Greeks claim that Dolma (or Dolmades as you Greekified
the name) is a Greek dish when the Turkish word suggests it is something
stuffed?

Have I for example claimed that Loukanika or Stifado are Turkish? I'd have
to be an idiot to try to claim that these are Turkish. .

>
>>Greeks and Turks who lived together for centuries under the Ottomans
>>would borrow not only the culinary arts but other aspects of life from
> one another?
> Together? not exactly. Turks settled in large numbers in Thrace, but

Sure, sure. Turkish influence has been greater in Thrace than in other parts
of Greece. I am not going to deny the obvious.

> not in the rest of Greece. The Turk administration and military lived
> in fortifications, and mosques were located within those
> fortifications. In my native Mani region, there were no Turks
> whatsoever. The same for the neighboring Taygetos mountains and any
> mountains in Greece for that matter. Once the Ottomans conquered a land
> they did not bother doing anything to it. The Ottoman Empire was
> largely inefficient, and even tax collection was loosely enforced.
> Priests were the virtual governors of Greek towns. The Patriarchs for
> this reason alone even favored the Ottomans over the Venetians. Athens
> and Rhodes had their own municipal self government.

Well, at least the Ottomans did not try to suppress your church or culture
which is quite something considering how other powers behaved in those days.

> By the 17th and 18th century administration was essentially passed on
> to the Greeks who recruited even more Greeks.
> So this notion that there was this widespread cultural interchange is
> questionable at best. If what you say it's true, the similarities would
> be with all of Turkey and not just the coastal Turkey where Greeks
> lived for centuries before Turks ever set foot. I only ran in to true
> Turkic people in central Turkey, and they seemed to have a culture and
> lifestyle different than the coastline

Sure, different regions in a large country like Turkey will have their own
sub-cultures. This is an observation that is applicable to any and every
country of any size. For better or for worse, these differences will become
less and less distinctive in these days of TV and instant mass
communications.


>
>>Only the other day I saw a map by Herodotus with lines drawn
> indicating
>>these mass migrations into what are today Greece, Turkey and Eastern
> Europe.
>>So what does that make of Greeks?
> Which map are you referring to? The world according to Herodotus? The
> map is there but I have never seen a version indicating movements.

Well, I have seen a map by Herodotus indication mass migrations from Central
Asia into what is now present day Greece. Unfortunately I did not save it
and can't trace it now. But, if you have a look at The Times Atlas of
History you will see very detailed maps of such migrations from Central
Asia.

And considering the fact that Central Asia was and still is the heartland of
Turkic peoples, that might be an indication to the Turkic origins of Greeks.
How about that?! I leave you to mull this point over.

>I have come across Greeks claiming that tzatziki (djacjik in Turkish
written
>cacik) is a Greek dish even when you have borrowed the name directly
from
>Turkish and Greekefied it using Tz for the Turkish dj sound
(represented by
>the letter c in the Turkish alphabet) when you don't even have that
sound in
>the Greek alphabet.
Name cannot say all about the origins, plus the modern Turkish language
is a result of linguistic engineering. Mongols do various yoghurt
sauces, but none of it is close to tzatziki. The closest I've seen it
outside Greece and the middle east is India, though their version is a
lot thinner. I think they even add liquid to the yoghurt and blend it.
Frankly, I don't know what its origin is, but if it is mongolian, it's
a heavily modified version of anything in existence in Central Asia.
Those are much more heavily seasoned and both texture and taste is
different.

>And how on earth can Greeks claim that Dolma (or Dolmades as you
Greekified
>the name) is a Greek dish when the Turkish word suggests it is
something
>stuffed?
I don't know, but based on ingredients and from what I've seen in
Central Asia, I can't believe it's mongolian. No doubt today's Turks
make it, but where they got it from is another story.

For example, Turkish coffee is known as Turkish coffee thoughout the
middle east. Even a sizable number of Greeks will order a "tourkiko
kafe" (Happy now?). We do know though that Turks got it from the
Ethiopians

>And considering the fact that Central Asia was and still is the
heartland of
>Turkic peoples, that might be an indication to the Turkic origins of
Greeks.
>How about that?! I leave you to mull this point over.
That's funny. It's well known that every nationality thinks they are
the best, but I did not know Turks believed they are the originators of
mankind. Many people have tried to claim the Greeks, the ancient ones
in particular. Someone here even suggested that Ancient Greeks used to
be nordic, an idiotic theory that racist theorists promote to support
their agendas. No explanation is given just that the Greek and Roman
civilizations were Aryan (Nordic), and not Mediterranean.
Based on DNA alone, Turkey only consists of 20% Turanids (original
Turks) and 25% Irano-Afghans (Kurds). The rest are Dinarised
Meditteraneans or Mediterraneans originating from Greek colonists.
Could explain this urge to be European at any measure ;-)
Greece has 65% Aegean (Minoans, Aecheans), 20% Apine (Dorians), 10%
Dinaric (related to Dorians) and 5% nordic.

>I leave you to mull this point over.
;-)

"karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> >I have come across Greeks claiming that tzatziki (djacjik in Turkish
> written
>>cacik) is a Greek dish even when you have borrowed the name directly
> from
>>Turkish and Greekefied it using Tz for the Turkish dj sound
> (represented by
>>the letter c in the Turkish alphabet) when you don't even have that
> sound in
>>the Greek alphabet.
> Name cannot say all about the origins, plus the modern Turkish language
> is a result of linguistic engineering.

I doubt that you understand the "linguistic engineering" of the Turkish
language. What was done was to change the old Ottoman script to the Latin
alphabet. Besides that not much was changed apart from some words that had
crept into the language from Persian and Arabic the roots of which were not
immediately understood by the population at large. These words were replaced
by words derived from original Turkish roots. One good example is Muallim
(teacher) which was derived Ilim (knowledge) and Alim (someone of great
knowledge) and to Muallim (someone who teaches knowledge). Ogrenme was a
root Turkish word meaning to learn known by all and sundry from the highest
court official in the Ottoman Empire to the lowliest peasant. From Ogren
(learn) and Ogret (teach) Ogretmen was developed to mean somebody who
teaches, i.e. a teacher. So Muallim became Ogretmen. Student became Orgenci
which means learner i.e. student instead of the old Talebe the root word
for which is lost to the average Turk. Elbise became Giysi from Giy/mek
meaning to wear. Giy means Wear. The -mek suffix changes Wear to To Wear. So
you see Giy (Wear - verb) to Giysi (something that is worn). Nothing
sensational here. Oku means Read, Okumak is To Read. Okul became a School
instead of the older Mektep. But actually, over 90 percent of the language
did not change at all. I hope my examples explain what you call "linguistic
engineering" which was far lesser in its scope than you seem to imagine.

Or if you are aware of the English legalese and the movement towards plain
English in contracts and other such documents, you will better understand
the scope of the changes in the Turkish language in the 20th century. It
certainly did not become a language that people could not understand but
rather the reverse in that everybody could understand the written and spoken
word without having to study long years to learn the foreign root words and
how other words were developed from those foreign root words .

Mongols do various yoghurt
> sauces, but none of it is close to tzatziki. The closest I've seen it
> outside Greece and the middle east is India, though their version is a
> lot thinner. I think they even add liquid to the yoghurt and blend it.
> Frankly, I don't know what its origin is, but if it is mongolian, it's
> a heavily modified version of anything in existence in Central Asia.
> Those are much more heavily seasoned and both texture and taste is
> different.

Look, English ales are not all the same but they are all ales of one sort or
another. To the English Ale enthusiast the minutest differences are
extremely important. To me they are all similar, rather flat and not to my
taste. I prefer Lagers and Pilsners though I must admit I have had some
lovely beers that strictly fall into the Ale category.

Same with Djadjik. If you don't mind I will write in as it would have to be
written in English so those others following our conversation can pronounce
it properly. I know that the Indian Raita is the Indian Djadjik. However,
don't forget the Mogul rule of India. Those Moguls who ruled India were
actually Turks or Turkic. They spoke Turkish or rather a Turkic dialect and
introduced their customs, cuisine etc to India. In the end they were
assimilated by India but that is another story. And for your information
King Farouk of Egypt grew up in a household where Turkish was the everyday
language spoken. In fact King Farouk's father visited Cyprus in the 30s and
my father was assigned to be his guide during his visit and they spoke in
Turkish even though both knew English. According to my father they engaged
in long personal conversations on the ex-King's yacht which was actually a
large steamer. Turkish was the ex-King's "mother tongue". King Farouk was
the first of that line of kings who spoke French at home no doubt due to his
education. Up to the time of his father who was ousted by the British at
the time, Turkish was the language spoken in the palaces of the Egyptian
Royal household. I am sure that that family have also been assimilated into
the Egyptian society -- apart from those who left Egypt, of course.

During his visit the unruly ex-King who was ousted by the British in favor
or his son Farouk, the spoilt brat, was also invited to a dinner laid in his
honor by the Kykko Monastery. When everybody was seated they were all
waiting for the King to start eating but he kept sitting still and after a
while the Abbot leaned toward him to tell him that everybody was waiting for
him to start whereupon the ex-King asked but where is Mr So-and-So? I can't
start eating without him being with us, whereupon the abbot quickly sent
somebody to fetch my brother from the other dining hall for the run of the
mill monks to the dining hall of the hierarchs. Sometimes, I feel that I
should have got my father to talk into a Walkman to relate his memoirs. And
he certainly knew a lot of people and a lot of things that would have made
quite an interesting book of memoirs. But there, how many of us ever get
round to doing the important things in life as we sp through with life?

Sorry, I know I am going a bit at a tangent, a bit off the main topic but
hopefully what I have written will show to you that the use of the Turkish
language is more widespread in the world that you probably are aware of.
Many Cypriots may also find the glaring differences between the father and
the French speaking playboy King Farouk proved himself to be. Many Cypriots
of the older generation will remember Farouk's visits to the gambling dens
in Cyprus and his degenerate life style as opposed to his serious
gentlemanly father's life style.

Now, let's get back to Djadjik. I can assure you that this word has been in
the Turkish language for a heck of a long time. Indians are not known for
their fondness of cheeses or yoghourt. It is obvious that they were
introduced to Yoghourt by their Mogul Rulers as the Turkic dynasty that set
up an empire in India was known. In fact, when I was very young I thought
this was something of an exaggeration but if you study the subject or even
read the National Geographic Magazine you will soon come to accept that the
so-called Mogul Rulers of India were in fact Turkic. I am not now going to
claim this as a scientific proof of the fact that the Mogul Rulers were
Turkic but I even saw an Indian film where the last of the Moguls who was
exiled to Burma by the British was depicted speaking Turkish on home. These
rulers of India were quite cultivated and encouraged the arts with the
result that some of the finest exponents of Indian music are in fact Moslem
Indians.

>
>>And how on earth can Greeks claim that Dolma (or Dolmades as you
> Greekified
>>the name) is a Greek dish when the Turkish word suggests it is
> something
>>stuffed?
> I don't know, but based on ingredients and from what I've seen in
> Central Asia, I can't believe it's mongolian. No doubt today's Turks
> make it, but where they got it from is another story.

But can't you see that Dolma is a Turkish word the root word being Dol
meaning Fill, Doldur meaning Fill (it), and Dolma meaning something that is
stuffed. What you probably do not know is that in Turkish there is also
Sarma which is reserved for Dolma that is stuffed by wrapping in leaves as
opposed to say stuffed peppers, aubergines that are strictly filled by being
filled/stuffed hence they are more correctly known as Dolmas. Actually Sarma
is used to differentiate the variety of Dolma that is wrapped in leaves.
Even the existence of different words for different types of Dolma is an
indication that Turkish is the source word for the Greek Dolmades where the
ending -des is the pluralized version of Dolma in Greek.. Dolma (singular)
Dolmades (plural in Greek). In the Turkish language the plural is reserved
for use only in essential cases. The pluralized noun is not normally used.
Neither do we have a female gender -- Door H Porta (very appropriate as it
opens up invitingly -- LOL), or a female Chair (H Karekla) on which one
its -- not very appropriate :-( -- or To Tragedy (sexless neutral
gender even for the most sexy Song) and O Anthropos (the obviously masculine
Man).

And just to show you that I am no bigot in making these claims that are
based on sound judgment and reasoning in addition to historical facts, let
me add that the words Palates and Donates in Turkish are directly borrowed
from the Greek. What a lot of Greeks don't realize is that there is a clear
distinction between the soft and hard consonants BE and UP and DO and TO in
Turkish which is not so distinctive in Greek. There, I hope this keeps you
happy.

In some respects the use of the pluralized noun in Turkish is akin to the
use of the word Fish in English. No matter how many Mackerel you catch you
say we caught a lot of Mackerel today. Or Can I have two Mackerel please?
But you talk of Fishes and Mackerels when you talk of DIFFERENT types of
Fish or different types of Mackerel. Yes, there are different types of
Mackerel some types having a more pointed nose which are actually far
tastier than the ordinary mackerel.


>
> For example, Turkish coffee is known as Turkish coffee thoughout the
> middle east. Even a sizable number of Greeks will order a "tourkiko
> kafe" (Happy now?). We do know though that Turks got it from the
> Ethiopians

I never claimed Turks invented or first developed coffee. We know that
coffee was first known in Ethiopia OR Yemen. In fact I can tell you that the
preparation of the coffee beans for Arabic and Turkish coffee is quite
probably the same. However, it is in the brewing of the coffee that Turkish
coffee is different. Hence Turkish Coffee. Probably also because Europeans
first found out about coffee from the Turks. So-called Greek Coffee is
nothing but Turkish Coffee in all its aspects. i.e. there is nothing
different about so-called Greek Coffee from Turkish Coffee.


>
>>And considering the fact that Central Asia was and still is the
> heartland of
>>Turkic peoples, that might be an indication to the Turkic origins of
> Greeks.
>>How about that?! I leave you to mull this point over.
> That's funny. It's well known that every nationality thinks they are
> the best, but I did not know Turks believed they are the originators of
> mankind. Many people have tried to claim the Greeks, the ancient ones
> in particular. Someone here even suggested that Ancient Greeks used to
> be nordic, an idiotic theory that racist theorists promote to support
> their agendas. No explanation is given just that the Greek and Roman
> civilizations were Aryan (Nordic), and not Mediterranean.

I fully agree with you in this respect. But it might be interesting for you
to study old historic migrations for you will find that Greeks moved to
present day Greece in mass migrations from Central Asia -- in other words
more or less from the same geography as Turkic peoples. True we extended
further east even and even mixed with the Mongols and the Chinese at one
stage.

> Based on DNA alone, Turkey only consists of 20% Turanids (original
> Turks) and 25% Irano-Afghans (Kurds). The rest are Dinarised
> Meditteraneans or Mediterraneans originating from Greek colonists.
> Could explain this urge to be European at any measure ;-)
> Greece has 65% Aegean (Minoans, Aecheans), 20% Apine (Dorians), 10%
> Dinaric (related to Dorians) and 5% nordic.

I do not know where you got these figures but I have no wish to contest your
figures. I know that we Turks mixed with a lot of other peoples, assimilated
them, became assimilated ourselves throughout history. I see nothing wrong
with admitting this. In fact I am proud of it. My approach to all such
matters is purely humanistic. We are all humans and we are all brothers. If
you ask me this is a strength rather than a weakness.

But then the ancient Greeks were the same. They assimilated the peoples of
lands they conquered. But please spare me the ridiculous notion that you set
up colonies without wars. In fact in a recent BBC documentary I saw, I
learned that the ancient Greeks would prohibit the peoples of conquered
lands from keeping such animals as cattle so that they would be deprived of
their livelihood and end up having to work for their Greeks colonialists who
engaged mainly in and made their fortunes through commerce. In other words,
you set up the rules of latter day European colonialists but unlike the
European colonialists you assimilated the native population and eventually
you turned them into Greeks. Wise foreign policy, I'd say unlike the latter
day European's colonial policy of keeping themselves to themselves and
making sure that the natives knew their place. Of course this policy only
works when things are done at the slow pace of those ancient days giving
everybody the chance to adjust.

>
>>I leave you to mull this point over.
> ;-)

Nice remark.
;-) from me too.

>