"Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
...

>>>> Good explanation, but I still think Lena need to justify and explain
>>>> her
>>>> cockamamie statement:
>>>
>>> While you're at it, kindly justify your "cockamamie" statement about
>>> 2seconds to fire in a combat situation. I think you've rather forgotten
>>> about the startle response, and are just citing how much time it takes
>>> afterwards. Am I wrong?
>>>
>>> Lena
>>
>> By making a blanket statement, yes, you are wrong, especially since YOU
>> STATED that 100% of your so-called knowledge comes from third parties
>> rather
>> than direct experience.
>
> Sigh. Do I need to quote you saying "someone can fire a gun in two
> seconds" before you'll answer my question? Was that timed including a
> startle response, or was it timed on a guncourse, where someone shouted
> "go"?
>
> I'm no psych major, but I have personally experienced the startle
> response, and I think you have too.
>
> Lena

You have obviously never seen (****FIRST HAND, NOT IN MOVIES*****) what goes
on at a close combat training range. That's "close", as in "not far". Not
"close" as in "close the door". Part of the training involves having to wait
for a target to appear out of nowhere BEFORE you can draw a weapon, acquire
the target, and fire.

Is there some reason you refuse to go to a library before you continue
making a fool of yourself???

"Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:
>
>> "zxcvbob" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Lena B Katz wrote:
>>>
>>>> So, how much does a reasonably good gun run? ;-) (sorry for mixing
>>>> parts
>>>> of the thread).
>>>
>>> Rifle, shotgun, or pistol?
>>>
>>> Let's put in in the context of your $30 lowball guess.
>>
>> I think she picked $30 because she saw a price like that in a newspaper
>> article about Saturday night specials, which nobody in their right mind
>> would buy.
>
> Actually, I just guessed. ;-). It was an educated guess, based on a
> mugger being willing to sell his gun(to the people he was mugging) for
> $200 in D.C. in the '90s.
>
> Lena

You are the perfect Wal Mart customer.

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:

>
> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:
>>
>>> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> I must admit, I am rather dismayed at the markedly provincial nature of
>>>> this board (at least the posters on this thread). You'd think that
>>>> they'd
>>>> never traveled _anywhere_!
>>>>
>>>> "uh.... i'm in Amerika, therefore this entire discussion revolves around
>>>> Amerika."
>>>>
>>>> dude, people.... get a life.
>>>
>>> Everyone else here is smart enough not to hypothesize about safety and
>>> crime
>>> conditions in places they're not familiar with. So, rather than pull
>>> stupid
>>> ideas out of our asses, we've confined our comments to those which come
>>> from
>>> knowledge of this country.
>>
>> Your knowledge seems... rather limited. How much time have you spent in
>> Harlem, anywhichway? Do you feel competent enough to talk about it? How
>> about L.A.?
>>
>> lena
>
> The time you spend in a certain neighborhood is in no way related to your
> fastasy definitions of the pieces of metal we call guns, or how they
> operate. If I'm wrong, then the following is true:

Next you're gonna tell me that black steel (or white steel) don't
exist...?

Your knowledge of the black market in "custom-made" armament influences
what you consider to be truth.

> "I've never been to Wilmington, Delaware. Therefore, a revolver can be
> loaded with as many rounds of ammo as the user wants".

For instance, if you don't believe that the black market has access to
more interesting stuff, you're going to believe whatever the gun
manufacturers say is the maximum amount of ammo.

But that's just a stupid way to think about it. Obviously, a revolver can
be forged that can be loaded with as much rounds as you want. but... at
some point it becomes impractical, and a better solution becomes a machine
gun.---unless a revolver has some sort of definition (like revolvers can
only hold X amount of rounds, or else they're called something else).

Lena

"Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
...

>
>> In all those years I have never heard of a mortar attack in the U.S.
>> And I think that I would have at least heard a hint about it.
>>
>> AP bullets are Armor Piercing bullets, usually made from a harden
>> material so they will go through the armor and pierce the flesh below.
>> They do not explode on contact!
>
> when I used AP, I meant anti-personnel. and, yeah, I should have
> remembered that AP generally means armor piercing. (*baka*) exploding on
> contact is something pretty rare to find (about as rare as black steel...
> and used by the same sorts of people).
>
> Lena

What sorts of people use "black steel"???

Oh....and you still have not backed up your delusions about mortar attacks
in Washington DC. Until you do so, they remain delusions.

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:

> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>>> Good explanation, but I still think Lena need to justify and explain
>>>>> her
>>>>> cockamamie statement:
>>>>
>>>> While you're at it, kindly justify your "cockamamie" statement about
>>>> 2seconds to fire in a combat situation. I think you've rather forgotten
>>>> about the startle response, and are just citing how much time it takes
>>>> afterwards. Am I wrong?
>>>>
>>>> Lena
>>>
>>> By making a blanket statement, yes, you are wrong, especially since YOU
>>> STATED that 100% of your so-called knowledge comes from third parties
>>> rather
>>> than direct experience.
>>
>> Sigh. Do I need to quote you saying "someone can fire a gun in two
>> seconds" before you'll answer my question? Was that timed including a
>> startle response, or was it timed on a guncourse, where someone shouted
>> "go"?
>>
>> I'm no psych major, but I have personally experienced the startle
>> response, and I think you have too.
>>
>> Lena
>
> You have obviously never seen (****FIRST HAND, NOT IN MOVIES*****) what goes
> on at a close combat training range. That's "close", as in "not far". Not
> "close" as in "close the door". Part of the training involves having to wait
> for a target to appear out of nowhere BEFORE you can draw a weapon, acquire
> the target, and fire.

That still does not involve the startle response. Perhaps you would like
to go look up what it means? Startle response occurs when something
unexpected happens (generally a loud noise). If your attention is already
focused on "shooting a gun", then you're confounding your timing.

lena

"Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
...


>> I also asked your age. It's pertinent to the discussion. How old are you?
>
> You think I'm just gonna let you get away with asserting that "it's
> pertinent to the discussion?" nah... you've got to show that in at least
> a little more detail... say, any detail at all.

It would help me with some informal research I've been doing about an entire
generation which fell off the educational radar screen. So, as a favor to
me, please provide your age.




>>>>
>>>> Don't blame it on "another post". ***YOU*** tossed those ridiculous
>>>> ideas
>>>> into this discussion. Not someone else. YOU.
>>>
>>> Yeah, I did. I stated that what I was talking about was a "working
>>> definition", not a real, military definition.
>>
>> There is no military definition. A gun is a gun. There are DEFECTIVE
>> definitions, most of which are kept in circulation by the press, and by
>> ill-informed individuals like you.
>
> ... have you read the post on what an "assault rifle" means? do so, if
> you please.

Yes. I've read it. It does not matter. Take away the 10 or 20 or 30 round
magazines and put in just 3 or 4 rounds, and suddenly, it's just like a
hunting rifle.

"Doug Kanter" >, if that's their real name,
wrote:

>"Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>> I also asked your age. It's pertinent to the discussion. How old are you?
>>
>> You think I'm just gonna let you get away with asserting that "it's
>> pertinent to the discussion?" nah... you've got to show that in at least
>> a little more detail... say, any detail at all.
>
>It would help me with some informal research I've been doing about an entire
>generation which fell off the educational radar screen. So, as a favor to
>me, please provide your age.

She's a former student of Carnegie Mellon University. Physics major.

Carol
--
"Years ago my mother used to say to me... She'd say,
'In this world Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant.'
Well, for years I was smart.... I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

*James Stewart* in the 1950 movie, _Harvey_

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:

> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>> In all those years I have never heard of a mortar attack in the U.S.
>>> And I think that I would have at least heard a hint about it.
>>>
>>> AP bullets are Armor Piercing bullets, usually made from a harden
>>> material so they will go through the armor and pierce the flesh below.
>>> They do not explode on contact!
>>
>> when I used AP, I meant anti-personnel. and, yeah, I should have
>> remembered that AP generally means armor piercing. (*baka*) exploding on
>> contact is something pretty rare to find (about as rare as black steel...
>> and used by the same sorts of people).
>>
>> Lena
>
> What sorts of people use "black steel"???

Yakuza, mostly. Generally used for "ceremonial purposes" like cutting off
people's little fingers.

In this country, gangsters have more of a fetish for exotic guns.

Lena

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:

> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>> In all those years I have never heard of a mortar attack in the U.S.
>>> And I think that I would have at least heard a hint about it.
>>>
>>> AP bullets are Armor Piercing bullets, usually made from a harden
>>> material so they will go through the armor and pierce the flesh below.
>>> They do not explode on contact!
>>
>> when I used AP, I meant anti-personnel. and, yeah, I should have
>> remembered that AP generally means armor piercing. (*baka*) exploding on
>> contact is something pretty rare to find (about as rare as black steel...
>> and used by the same sorts of people).
>>
>> Lena
>
> Oh....and you still have not backed up your delusions about mortar attacks
> in Washington DC. Until you do so, they remain delusions.

Since you have openly doubted my word (on a different sub-thread, about me
being essentially hunted, by a reasonably organized group of people), I
see no reason why I should bother.

If you won't believe me, on something I have personally experienced, why
should I bother trying to convince you about things that I haven't?

Lena

"Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:
>
>> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>>>> Good explanation, but I still think Lena need to justify and explain
>>>>>> her
>>>>>> cockamamie statement:
>>>>>
>>>>> While you're at it, kindly justify your "cockamamie" statement about
>>>>> 2seconds to fire in a combat situation. I think you've rather
>>>>> forgotten
>>>>> about the startle response, and are just citing how much time it takes
>>>>> afterwards. Am I wrong?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lena
>>>>
>>>> By making a blanket statement, yes, you are wrong, especially since YOU
>>>> STATED that 100% of your so-called knowledge comes from third parties
>>>> rather
>>>> than direct experience.
>>>
>>> Sigh. Do I need to quote you saying "someone can fire a gun in two
>>> seconds" before you'll answer my question? Was that timed including a
>>> startle response, or was it timed on a guncourse, where someone shouted
>>> "go"?
>>>
>>> I'm no psych major, but I have personally experienced the startle
>>> response, and I think you have too.
>>>
>>> Lena
>>
>> You have obviously never seen (****FIRST HAND, NOT IN MOVIES*****) what
>> goes
>> on at a close combat training range. That's "close", as in "not far". Not
>> "close" as in "close the door". Part of the training involves having to
>> wait
>> for a target to appear out of nowhere BEFORE you can draw a weapon,
>> acquire
>> the target, and fire.
>
> That still does not involve the startle response. Perhaps you would like
> to go look up what it means? Startle response occurs when something
> unexpected happens (generally a loud noise). If your attention is already
> focused on "shooting a gun", then you're confounding your timing.
>
> lena

The purpose of the training is to raise the gun skills to the point where,
like any other physical activity, it requires no actual conscious effort.
When this is achieved, the startle response remains a separate thing.
Perhaps you have never experienced this.

"Damsel in dis Dress" > wrote in message
news
> "Doug Kanter" >, if that's their real name,
> wrote:
>
>>"Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>>>> I also asked your age. It's pertinent to the discussion. How old are
>>>> you?
>>>
>>> You think I'm just gonna let you get away with asserting that "it's
>>> pertinent to the discussion?" nah... you've got to show that in at
>>> least
>>> a little more detail... say, any detail at all.
>>
>>It would help me with some informal research I've been doing about an
>>entire
>>generation which fell off the educational radar screen. So, as a favor to
>>me, please provide your age.
>
> She's a former student of Carnegie Mellon University. Physics major.
>
> Carol

Care to guess her age RANGE, at least? I'm a former student, too, but I'm
52.

"Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:
>
>>
>> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> I must admit, I am rather dismayed at the markedly provincial nature
>>>>> of
>>>>> this board (at least the posters on this thread). You'd think that
>>>>> they'd
>>>>> never traveled _anywhere_!
>>>>>
>>>>> "uh.... i'm in Amerika, therefore this entire discussion revolves
>>>>> around
>>>>> Amerika."
>>>>>
>>>>> dude, people.... get a life.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone else here is smart enough not to hypothesize about safety and
>>>> crime
>>>> conditions in places they're not familiar with. So, rather than pull
>>>> stupid
>>>> ideas out of our asses, we've confined our comments to those which come
>>>> from
>>>> knowledge of this country.
>>>
>>> Your knowledge seems... rather limited. How much time have you spent in
>>> Harlem, anywhichway? Do you feel competent enough to talk about it?
>>> How
>>> about L.A.?
>>>
>>> lena
>>
>> The time you spend in a certain neighborhood is in no way related to your
>> fastasy definitions of the pieces of metal we call guns, or how they
>> operate. If I'm wrong, then the following is true:
>
> Next you're gonna tell me that black steel (or white steel) don't
> exist...?
>
> Your knowledge of the black market in "custom-made" armament influences
> what you consider to be truth.

What goes on in Harlem does not make it OK for you to suggest that a normal
citizen should think about protecting herself in the same way as a member of
a U.N. peacekeeping force stationed in some hell hole in Africa.

In addition, the conditions in a neighborhood are in no way connected with
the physical qualities of an object, like a gun. In other words, you've been
saying "Because things are rough in Harlem, I, Lena Katz, am free to imagine
certain fictional qualities about guns". Well...yes, you are free to imagine
such things, but not to claim that your fantasies are real. In fact, what
you are unable to do is say this:

"I, Lena Katz, started a discussion by making certain ridiculous claims
about guns, based on misundertandings of things supposedly told to me by
military people who, in fact, would never say such things. Unfortunately, I
know as much about guns as I do about repairing diesel engines, and
should've kept my mouth shut before I dug myself a hole so deep that I could
no longer see the sky above'".



>> "I've never been to Wilmington, Delaware. Therefore, a revolver can be
>> loaded with as many rounds of ammo as the user wants".
>
> For instance, if you don't believe that the black market has access to
> more interesting stuff, you're going to believe whatever the gun
> manufacturers say is the maximum amount of ammo.

Oh boy. This is full of possibilities.

1) The black market, as you call it, has access to nothing that's unique to
any gun user who cares to take the time to explore. Using ammo as an
example, there's an endless variety of "recipes", limited only by the
imagination of the person doing the hand loading. Legal gun owners do this
all the time. The ideas flow from military to the public and back, in an
infinite kind of information highway. It's a yawn.

2) "believe whatever the gun manufacturers say" ??? See above. There is no
curtain of secrecy hiding the possibilities of what guns can do. It's public
information.



> But that's just a stupid way to think about it. Obviously, a revolver can
> be forged that can be loaded with as much rounds as you want.

My point was that you are equating where a person has lived with what is
possible or likely to be true about a mechanical device, whether it be a gun
or a can opener.

"Doug Kanter" >, if that's their real name,
wrote:

>"Damsel in dis Dress" > wrote in message
>news
>> "Doug Kanter" >, if that's their real name,
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>> I also asked your age. It's pertinent to the discussion. How old are
>>>>> you?
>>>>
>>>> You think I'm just gonna let you get away with asserting that "it's
>>>> pertinent to the discussion?" nah... you've got to show that in at
>>>> least
>>>> a little more detail... say, any detail at all.
>>>
>>>It would help me with some informal research I've been doing about an
>>>entire
>>>generation which fell off the educational radar screen. So, as a favor to
>>>me, please provide your age.
>>
>> She's a former student of Carnegie Mellon University. Physics major.
>>
>> Carol
>
>Care to guess her age RANGE, at least? I'm a former student, too, but I'm
>52.

I guess my point was that she's at least 18. <EG>

The mind boggles that she was accepted to any college's physics studies.

Carol
--
"Years ago my mother used to say to me... She'd say,
'In this world Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant.'
Well, for years I was smart.... I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

*James Stewart* in the 1950 movie, _Harvey_

"Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:
>
>> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>
>>>> In all those years I have never heard of a mortar attack in the U.S.
>>>> And I think that I would have at least heard a hint about it.
>>>>
>>>> AP bullets are Armor Piercing bullets, usually made from a harden
>>>> material so they will go through the armor and pierce the flesh below.
>>>> They do not explode on contact!
>>>
>>> when I used AP, I meant anti-personnel. and, yeah, I should have
>>> remembered that AP generally means armor piercing. (*baka*) exploding
>>> on
>>> contact is something pretty rare to find (about as rare as black
>>> steel...
>>> and used by the same sorts of people).
>>>
>>> Lena
>>
>> Oh....and you still have not backed up your delusions about mortar
>> attacks
>> in Washington DC. Until you do so, they remain delusions.
>
> Since you have openly doubted my word (on a different sub-thread, about me
> being essentially hunted, by a reasonably organized group of people), I
> see no reason why I should bother.
>
> If you won't believe me, on something I have personally experienced, why
> should I bother trying to convince you about things that I haven't?
>
> Lena

Nice attempt to dodge the issue, Lena, but you're talking about two
different things. Your being hunted cannot be proved or disproved. You'll
admit that it could very easily have been a matter of your perception of the
situation. A mortar attack in Washington DC is a different story and you
know it. If it happened, we could find mention of it in newspaper archives.
Certainly the Washington Post would've picked up such a story, IF IT
HAPPENED, but it did not. You know that.

"Damsel in dis Dress" > wrote in message
...

>>>>
>>>>It would help me with some informal research I've been doing about an
>>>>entire
>>>>generation which fell off the educational radar screen. So, as a favor
>>>>to
>>>>me, please provide your age.
>>>
>>> She's a former student of Carnegie Mellon University. Physics major.
>>>
>>> Carol
>>
>>Care to guess her age RANGE, at least? I'm a former student, too, but I'm
>>52.
>
> I guess my point was that she's at least 18. <EG>
>
> The mind boggles that she was accepted to any college's physics studies.

There are lots of people with nice majors, waiting on restaurant tables.

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:

>
> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:
>>
>>> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In all those years I have never heard of a mortar attack in the U.S.
>>>>> And I think that I would have at least heard a hint about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> AP bullets are Armor Piercing bullets, usually made from a harden
>>>>> material so they will go through the armor and pierce the flesh below.
>>>>> They do not explode on contact!
>>>>
>>>> when I used AP, I meant anti-personnel. and, yeah, I should have
>>>> remembered that AP generally means armor piercing. (*baka*) exploding
>>>> on
>>>> contact is something pretty rare to find (about as rare as black
>>>> steel...
>>>> and used by the same sorts of people).
>>>>
>>>> Lena
>>>
>>> Oh....and you still have not backed up your delusions about mortar
>>> attacks
>>> in Washington DC. Until you do so, they remain delusions.
>>
>> Since you have openly doubted my word (on a different sub-thread, about me
>> being essentially hunted, by a reasonably organized group of people), I
>> see no reason why I should bother.
>>
>> If you won't believe me, on something I have personally experienced, why
>> should I bother trying to convince you about things that I haven't?
>>
>> Lena
>
> Nice attempt to dodge the issue, Lena, but you're talking about two
> different things. Your being hunted cannot be proved or disproved.

Of course you could disprove it. You could have been there, and seen that
there was no one there. OTOH, you could "prove" it by having been there,
and seeing what was going on.

> You'll
> admit that it could very easily have been a matter of your perception of the
> situation.

No, I won't. When you see people converging on a point that happens to be
_you_, and modifying their positions to surround _you_, as you change
direction, and continue moving towards your home, that's known as a bad
sign. When you see evidence that you could not have entered your front
door (because of a sophisticated set of machinery)... that clinches it.
Coordinated attack.

I'm not just going on my own say-so here... I was with someone at the
time, who remembers all the facts.

Lena

"Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
...

>> Nice attempt to dodge the issue, Lena, but you're talking about two
>> different things. Your being hunted cannot be proved or disproved.
>
> Of course you could disprove it. You could have been there, and seen that
> there was no one there. OTOH, you could "prove" it by having been there,
> and seeing what was going on.
>
>> You'll
>> admit that it could very easily have been a matter of your perception of
>> the
>> situation.
>
> No, I won't. When you see people converging on a point that happens to be
> _you_, and modifying their positions to surround _you_, as you change
> direction, and continue moving towards your home, that's known as a bad
> sign. When you see evidence that you could not have entered your front
> door (because of a sophisticated set of machinery)... that clinches it.
> Coordinated attack.
>
> I'm not just going on my own say-so here... I was with someone at the
> time, who remembers all the facts.
>
> Lena
>

None of what you have said in any was addresses the issue of the mortar
attack. There is NO WAY you could have been the only person who noticed it.
If it happened, there would've been explosive forensics experts all over the
scene, determining the exact cause. You may have heard that Washington DC is
special in certain ways, and that unexplained bombings might raise a few
eyebrows.

Please show further information from a reputable source which indicates that
there was a mortar attack in DC, not counting anything that might have
occurred during the Civil War.

In article >, "Doug Kanter"
> wrote:

> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message


> > ... have you read the post on what an "assault rifle" means? do so, if
> > you please.
>
> Yes. I've read it. It does not matter. Take away the 10 or 20 or 30 round
> magazines and put in just 3 or 4 rounds, and suddenly, it's just like a
> hunting rifle.


Yeah.

Perhaps you read it but don't remember what it said. It said basically
that an assault rifle is an assault rifle, because it's an assault rifle.

I'm still waiting for Sandi to post a definition of an assault rifle (what
makes it different from a hunting rifle).

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Doug Kanter"
> > wrote:
>
>> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
>
>
>> > ... have you read the post on what an "assault rifle" means? do so, if
>> > you please.
>>
>> Yes. I've read it. It does not matter. Take away the 10 or 20 or 30 round
>> magazines and put in just 3 or 4 rounds, and suddenly, it's just like a
>> hunting rifle.
>
>
> Yeah.
>
> Perhaps you read it but don't remember what it said. It said basically
> that an assault rifle is an assault rifle, because it's an assault rifle.
>
> I'm still waiting for Sandi to post a definition of an assault rifle (what
> makes it different from a hunting rifle).
>
> --
> Dan Abel

Dan, you know as well as I do that the term "assault rifle" raises giggles
in gun discussion groups. If the "real definition" exists, I think its
purpose is to provide the basis with which to shut down unruly newspaper
reporters who think anything with a flashlight attached is an assault rifle.
And, if you can "assault something/someone" with a Ruger M77, is it an
assault rifle? If I put a 30 round curved aftermarket magazine in my Ruger
10/22, making it look slightly like an assault rifle (if you squint really
hard), is it no longer just a .22 rifle for plinking soup cans?

I love words.

In article >, "Doug Kanter"
> wrote:

> "Dan Abel" > wrote in message
> ...

> > Perhaps you read it but don't remember what it said. It said basically
> > that an assault rifle is an assault rifle, because it's an assault rifle.
> >
> > I'm still waiting for Sandi to post a definition of an assault rifle (what
> > makes it different from a hunting rifle).


> Dan, you know as well as I do that the term "assault rifle" raises giggles
> in gun discussion groups. If the "real definition" exists, I think its
> purpose is to provide the basis with which to shut down unruly newspaper
> reporters who think anything with a flashlight attached is an assault rifle.


You know and I know, but John Q. Public wants to ban assault rifles
because they are so dangerous.



> I love words.


But usually they mean something. Most laws have decent definitions in
them. The failure to find any kind of decent definition in the California
law banning their sale is why I keep bringing this up.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Doug Kanter"
> > wrote:
>
>> "Dan Abel" > wrote in message
>> ...
>
>> > Perhaps you read it but don't remember what it said. It said basically
>> > that an assault rifle is an assault rifle, because it's an assault
>> > rifle.
>> >
>> > I'm still waiting for Sandi to post a definition of an assault rifle
>> > (what
>> > makes it different from a hunting rifle).
>
>
>> Dan, you know as well as I do that the term "assault rifle" raises
>> giggles
>> in gun discussion groups. If the "real definition" exists, I think its
>> purpose is to provide the basis with which to shut down unruly newspaper
>> reporters who think anything with a flashlight attached is an assault
>> rifle.
>
>
> You know and I know, but John Q. Public wants to ban assault rifles
> because they are so dangerous.
>
>
>
>> I love words.
>
>
> But usually they mean something. Most laws have decent definitions in
> them. The failure to find any kind of decent definition in the California
> law banning their sale is why I keep bringing this up.
>

I don't know about you, but what always scares me about them thar a-salt
weapons is the bayonet lug mentioned in the old federal law. That thing
could pinch a victim's skin and raise one helluva welt. They *should* be
illegal.
:-)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:31:46 -0500 (EST), Lena B Katz
> wrote:


>> I have been a shooter in combat type competitions,
>
>what are combat type competitions?

Timed events from various positions, with scoring on a silhouette
target.
>
>> and have reloaded
>> ammunition for that reason. I (while) competing have made and fired
>> over 5000 rounds a year. And yes I have made silver bullets as a gag.
>
>what alloy?

Generally 90/10 lead/tin
The silver is .999 fine.
>
>> In all those years I have never heard of a mortar attack in the U.S.
>> And I think that I would have at least heard a hint about it.
>>
>> AP bullets are Armor Piercing bullets, usually made from a harden
>> material so they will go through the armor and pierce the flesh below.
>> They do not explode on contact!
>
>when I used AP, I meant anti-personnel. and, yeah, I should have
>remembered that AP generally means armor piercing. (*baka*) exploding on
>contact

No handgun or rifle bullet, explodes on contact.

>is something pretty rare to find (about as rare as black steel

If you are referring to Black Talons, they are teflon coated, not
steel and they do not explode on contact.




Pan Ohco

"Pan Ohco" > wrote in message
...

>>is something pretty rare to find (about as rare as black steel
>
> If you are referring to Black Talons, they are teflon coated, not
> steel and they do not explode on contact.


In case she *is* thinking of that ammo, here's some interesting reading. She
won't read it, but it cost nothing to post it:


Winchester Black Talon Revisited

There appears to be continuing confusion surrounding the different
versions of the Black Talon bullet, its legality for possession by private
citizens, as well as its alleged "cop-killer bullet" armor-piercing
capability. Here's the lowdown:

Black Talon SXT: The original Black Talon handgun bullet. It was
introduced in 1991. The cartridge consists of a black colored bullet seated
in a nickel-plated case. The black paint-like coating on the bullet is a
Winchester proprietary lubricant called Lubalox. The bullet has six
serrations on the rim of the hollowpoint cavity (meplat), and six talons.
The talons deploy when the bullet expands. They are described by Winchester
as: "six uniform, radial jacket petals with perpendicular tips." Winchester
voluntarily discontinued sales of Black Talon SXT to the general public in
late 1993/early 1994 due to intense negative media and political pressure.
Some political activists derisively referred to it as "Black Felon" ammo.
Black Talon is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.

Ranger SXT: Ranger SXT is a less expensive version of the original Black
Talon cartridge intended for the law enforcement market. It consists of a
black Lubalox coated bullet seated in a brass case. The bullet has six
serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger SXT is packaged in boxes of
50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."

Supreme SXT: Redesigned "civilian" version of the original Black Talon
bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a
nickel-plated case. The bullet has eight serrations on its meplat, and no
talons. Supreme SXT is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.

According to Olin-Winchester public relations, the Supreme SXT bullet
design has not been factory tested in standard ordnance gelatin because it
was not designed to meet police ammunition performance specifications. As a
result, there's no valid and verifiable performance data available from
Winchester or the FBI.

We find Winchester's attitude troubling because they're marketing a
personal defense bullet (a life safety device) in which they confessed to us
that they've no idea how well (or poorly) it performs. Therefore, we advise
you not to buy and use Supreme SXT until Winchester gets its act together
and coughs up performance data for this cartridge.

Ranger Talon: The second generation version of the original Black Talon
SXT bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a
nickel-plated case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six
talons. Ranger Talon is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law
Enforcement Ammunition."

There is no Federal law that prohibits a private citizen from purchasing
or possessing any of the Black Talon bullet variants. Additionally, there
is no Federal law, which forbids private possession and use of "law
enforcement" handgun ammunition, except specifically defined armor-piercing
handgun ammunition. Black Talon, Ranger SXT and Ranger Talon do not meet the
criteria for armor-piercing handgun ammunition as defined by Federal law.
However, there may be State or local laws that ban private possession of
Black Talon and its variants.

The negative media frenzy of late 1993 produced untrue assertions that
Black Talon was an armor-piercing "cop-killer" bullet. We've fired both 9mm
and .40 S&W Black Talon bullets into threat level IIA soft body armor and
the armor easily stopped the bullets. The "armor-piercing" myth may have
originated from the markings used on certain military small-arms ammunition.
U.S. military cartridges with a black painted tip indicates the bullet is
armor-piercing.

(Federal Nyclad ammunition is often mistaken as armor-piercing
ammunition too, due to the blue-black nylon coating on the lead bullet.)

The black Lubalox coating on the Black Talon bullet is meant to reduce
in-bore friction and chamber pressure. Once the bullet leaves the muzzle,
the mission of the coating is completed. Lubalox does not give the bullet
any special property that allows it to blast through police soft body armor.

Recently, the newer Winchester 9mm 127 grain +P+ Ranger SXT bullet
(product number RA9SXTP) has been found to penetrate some lower threat level
soft body armor. Second Chance Body Armor Company recalled one of its vests
in response to officer safety concerns posed by this particular bullet.

Click here to read the Second Chance vest recall press release.

In the latest issue of the International Wound Ballistics Association's
journal, Wound Ballistics Review, there's an article written by Duncan
MacPherson, "A Body Armor Penetration Rumor," that explains the reason why
the RA9SXTP bullet can penetrate some body armor. According to MacPherson,
it's not due to any special aspect of the bullet design nor does its
performance represent any new dynamics in armor penetration. He says it's
due to a minor flaw in the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) body armor
certification test protocol:

"There are two principal limitations in [the NIJ] rating system. The
first limitation is that all armor with the same rating (e.g., passes level
2A and fails level 2) does not have identical performance; this is obvious
(because there is no attempt to, or mechanism, for evaluating intermediate
performance), but is often overlooked. The second limitation is that
different bullet designs do not necessarily have the same relative
efficiency in penetrating the quite different armor designs of different
manufacturers; this whole area is not well modeled either analytically or
experimentally."

Winchester tightly controls distribution of its RA9SXTP cartridge. When
we last checked, Winchester did not permit its distributors to stock this
load. It had to be shipped from the factory directly to a law enforcement
agency address.

Finally, Winchester also produced and manufactured a line of centerfire
rifle ammunition under the Black Talon name, which has since been renamed
Fail-Safe. The Black Talon rifle bullet was completely different from the
handgun bullet design. It did not expand to deploy talon-like claws.
Instead, it had a solid copper nose (similar to a Barnes X-Bullet), with a
lead core base encapsulated in a steel liner to prevent jacket rupture upon
impact. This bullet had a baked on coating of molybdenum disulfide, which
gave it a distinctive black colored appearance also.

zxcvbob > wrote in
:

> Damsel in dis Dress wrote:
> > Lena B Katz >, if that's their real name,
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>That's actually a good idea. But it is still a judgement call...
> >>how likely is the thief to decide that the best stuff is inside
> >>that room? Yes, it has a deadbolt, but how likely is the thief to
> >>have the means of getting through the deadbolt? (sulphuric acid
> >>does nicely for going through _any_ metal).
> >
> >
> > <Damsel adds sulphuric acid to her list of burglary tools>
> >
>
>
> It doesn't work. Don't ask me how I know....
>
> Best regards,
> Bob
>

a car jack pops the door faster than the acid would take. Just pry the
jam apart with the jack and open the door. The acid would take about a
month.

--
No Bread Crumbs were hurt in the making of this Meal.
Type 2 Diabetic 1AC 5.6mmol or 101mg/dl
Continuing to be Manitoban

Doug Kanter wrote:

> "Pan Ohco" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >>is something pretty rare to find (about as rare as black steel
> >
> > If you are referring to Black Talons, they are teflon coated, not
> > steel and they do not explode on contact.
>
>
> In case she *is* thinking of that ammo, here's some interesting reading.
She
> won't read it, but it cost nothing to post it:


Reading Lena's posts I've come to the conclusion that she would make
Pinocchio blush...additionally her fake noze (a result of her LIAR MOUTH
behaviour) is not even made from any kind of cheap wood, it's just the most
ersatz and vilest sort of sawdust pressed together to make cheezy particle
board...

--
Best
Greg

Reading Lena's posts I've come to the conclusion that she would make
Pinocchio blush...additionally her fake noze (a result of her LIAR
MOUTH
behaviour) is not even made from any kind of cheap wood, it's just the
most
ersatz and vilest sort of sawdust pressed together to make cheezy
particle
board...

--
Best
Greg


She's a born again Masonite.

Sheldon wrote:

> Reading Lena's posts I've come to the conclusion that she would make
> Pinocchio blush...additionally her fake noze (a result of her LIAR
> MOUTH
> behaviour) is not even made from any kind of cheap wood, it's just the
> most
> ersatz and vilest sort of sawdust pressed together to make cheezy
> particle
> board...

I can't believe you bothered to read 'em?? The two
of 'em should take it to email it's gotten so far
off the beaten path.
Goomba

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Doug Kanter"
> > wrote:
>
>> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
>
>
>> > ... have you read the post on what an "assault rifle" means? do so, if
>> > you please.
>>
>> Yes. I've read it. It does not matter. Take away the 10 or 20 or 30 round
>> magazines and put in just 3 or 4 rounds, and suddenly, it's just like a
>> hunting rifle.
>
>
> Yeah.
>
> Perhaps you read it but don't remember what it said. It said basically
> that an assault rifle is an assault rifle, because it's an assault rifle.
>
> I'm still waiting for Sandi to post a definition of an assault rifle (what
> makes it different from a hunting rifle).
>
> --
> Dan Abel
> Sonoma State University
> AIS
>

You'd better make a snack then, Dan cuz yer gonna be waiting a long, long
time! I suggest pemmican.

Wait. How's this for logic. The .30-06 round was developed for the
military way back when. So, since it's for the military, it is an "Assault
Rifle"! But wait! Someone found out you can kill deer with the same round.
Oh my, it is now a "Hunting Rifle", not an "Assault Rifle"! I think both
the "assault rifle" and the "hunting rifle" shot holes all over this line of
logic.

I can assault the people down the street or shoot a deer with my Browning
BAR Mark II .270 rifle. So, is it an assault rifle or hunting rifle?

OB Food. Had a roast from the deer I shot last fall. Yummy!
Bret



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Sheldon wrote:

> Reading Lena's posts I've come to the conclusion that she would make
> Pinocchio blush...additionally her fake noze (a result of her LIAR
> MOUTH
> behaviour) is not even made from any kind of cheap wood, it's just the
> most
> ersatz and vilest sort of sawdust pressed together to make cheezy
> particle
> board...
>
> --
> Best
> Greg
>
>
> She's a born again Masonite.


Yup...and since she is running around here with a speculum on top of her
head she would greatly benefit from undergoing a hystericalectomy...

--
Best
Greg

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Gregory Morrow wrote:

>
> Doug Kanter wrote:
>
>> "Pan Ohco" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>> is something pretty rare to find (about as rare as black steel
>>>
>>> If you are referring to Black Talons, they are teflon coated, not
>>> steel and they do not explode on contact.
>>
>>
>> In case she *is* thinking of that ammo, here's some interesting reading.
> She
>> won't read it, but it cost nothing to post it:

1. No, I was not referring to black talons... I was referring to a
particular alloy of steel, generally used for making bladed weapons.

2. Well, I won't read it if I don't see it. I've got to apologize to
everyone on this thread, my newsreader doesn't appear to show things in
_order_, so I didn't even get the rest of this subthread.

Lena

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Pan Ohco wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:31:46 -0500 (EST), Lena B Katz
> > wrote:
>
>
>>> I have been a shooter in combat type competitions,
>>
>> what are combat type competitions?
>
> Timed events from various positions, with scoring on a silhouette
> target.

What's the lighting? I've gotta say, that's a pretty penny better than
most firing ranges. :-)

>>> and have reloaded
>>> ammunition for that reason. I (while) competing have made and fired
>>> over 5000 rounds a year. And yes I have made silver bullets as a gag.
>>
>> what alloy?
>
> Generally 90/10 lead/tin
> The silver is .999 fine.

The ones a friend of mine has are heirlooms. Covered with sigils and
crap. I figure the people who made them thought they'd actually do
something.

>> is something pretty rare to find (about as rare as black steel
>
> If you are referring to Black Talons, they are teflon coated, not
> steel and they do not explode on contact.

what are black talons?

Lena

Dan Abel wrote:
> In article >, "Doug Kanter"
> > wrote:
>
> > "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
>
>
> > > ... have you read the post on what an "assault rifle" means? do
so, if
> > > you please.
> >
> > Yes. I've read it. It does not matter. Take away the 10 or 20 or 30
round
> > magazines and put in just 3 or 4 rounds, and suddenly, it's just
like a
> > hunting rifle.
>
>
> Yeah.
>
> Perhaps you read it but don't remember what it said. It said
basically
> that an assault rifle is an assault rifle, because it's an assault
rifle.
>
> I'm still waiting for Sandi to post a definition of an assault rifle
(what
> makes it different from a hunting rifle).

Sorry to not respond in a timely manner...the trials of a third world
country. The internet was down for a while.

My hunting rifles were bolt action. The "assault rifle" I've used (the
M-16) while in the Army were able to be selectively used as either a
fully automatic or semiautomatic weapon, medium caliber as opposed to
large caliber.In my mind, the term assault rifle should not be used,
because of the confusion it causes. IMHO, the terms fully automatic,
semi-automatic or selective fire rifles along with the caliber should
be used since these more accurately describe the weapons in question.

If I had to use a definition of "assault rifle" I tend to go with this
one: an intermediate-caliber selective-fire rifle, that is, a weapon
which can be fired fully automatically or semi-automatically at the
option of the user, using ammunition more powerful than pistol
ammunition but not so powerful as a standard rifle cartridges.
Furthermore, the term "assault rifle" derives from a translation of the
German term sturmgewehr, the tag given to the intermediate caliber
selective-fire weapons previously known as MP 43 and MP 44
(maschinenpistole, or submachinegun, of 1943 and 1944).

>From "The Semantics of Firearms"
http://web4.integraonline.com/~bbroa..._Firearms.html

Sandi

Maverick wrote:
> "Dan Abel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Doug Kanter"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> "Lena B Katz" > wrote in message
> >
> >
> >> > ... have you read the post on what an "assault rifle" means? do
so, if
> >> > you please.
> >>
> >> Yes. I've read it. It does not matter. Take away the 10 or 20 or
30 round
> >> magazines and put in just 3 or 4 rounds, and suddenly, it's just
like a
> >> hunting rifle.
> >
> >
> > Yeah.
> >
> > Perhaps you read it but don't remember what it said. It said
basically
> > that an assault rifle is an assault rifle, because it's an assault
rifle.
> >
> > I'm still waiting for Sandi to post a definition of an assault
rifle (what
> > makes it different from a hunting rifle).
> >
> > --
> > Dan Abel
> > Sonoma State University
> > AIS
> >
>
> You'd better make a snack then, Dan cuz yer gonna be waiting a long,
long
> time! I suggest pemmican.
>

Why would you suggest he need to wait a long, long time for my
response? I respond to posts when I see them. I don't live my life on
the net, I teach school and it's report card time. Some things take
priority over Usenet discussions. Add to the fact that internet access
has been spotty at least this past week.

FWIW, I posted my prefered definition of assault rifle and my opinion
of the use of that term versus fully automatic, semi-automatic and
selective fire rifles above (in response to Dan's request).

Sandi

In article .com>,
"Sandi" > wrote:

> Dan Abel wrote:

> > Perhaps you read it but don't remember what it said. It said
> basically
> > that an assault rifle is an assault rifle, because it's an assault
> rifle.
> >
> > I'm still waiting for Sandi to post a definition of an assault rifle
> (what
> > makes it different from a hunting rifle).
>
> Sorry to not respond in a timely manner...the trials of a third world
> country. The internet was down for a while.


Thanks for responding. And I'm a patient person.



> If I had to use a definition of "assault rifle" I tend to go with this
> one: an intermediate-caliber selective-fire rifle, that is, a weapon
> which can be fired fully automatically or semi-automatically at the
> option of the user, using ammunition more powerful than pistol
> ammunition but not so powerful as a standard rifle cartridges.
> Furthermore, the term "assault rifle" derives from a translation of the
> German term sturmgewehr, the tag given to the intermediate caliber
> selective-fire weapons previously known as MP 43 and MP 44
> (maschinenpistole, or submachinegun, of 1943 and 1944).


That's a good definition, but not useful to us who live in the land of
fruit and nuts (California), or indeed all of the US. Fully automatic
guns have been almost impossible to buy legally for a long time. When
California passed its ban on assault rifles, they were referring strictly
to semi-automatic weapons. Many of these weapons also came as hunting
rifles, with the very same action and caliber, and interchangeable
magazines.



> >From "The Semantics of Firearms"
> http://web4.integraonline.com/~bbroa..._Firearms.html

Excellent reference.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...

> That's a good definition, but not useful to us who live in the land of
> fruit and nuts (California), or indeed all of the US. Fully automatic
> guns have been almost impossible to buy legally for a long time.

Luckily, the military and police send their armorers to another planet after
they retire, so we can be absolutely sure there's nobody anywhere in the
U.S. who knows how to convert weapons, especially for criminals. I feel good
knowing this. How about you? :-)

Dan Abel wrote:
> In article .com>,
> "Sandi" > wrote:
>
> > Dan Abel wrote:
>
>
> > If I had to use a definition of "assault rifle" I tend to go with
this
> > one: an intermediate-caliber selective-fire rifle, that is, a
weapon
> > which can be fired fully automatically or semi-automatically at the
> > option of the user, using ammunition more powerful than pistol
> > ammunition but not so powerful as a standard rifle cartridges.
> > Furthermore, the term "assault rifle" derives from a translation of
the
> > German term sturmgewehr, the tag given to the intermediate caliber
> > selective-fire weapons previously known as MP 43 and MP 44
> > (maschinenpistole, or submachinegun, of 1943 and 1944).
>
>
> That's a good definition, but not useful to us who live in the land
of
> fruit and nuts (California), or indeed all of the US. Fully
automatic
> guns have been almost impossible to buy legally for a long time.
When
> California passed its ban on assault rifles, they were referring
strictly
> to semi-automatic weapons. Many of these weapons also came as
hunting
> rifles, with the very same action and caliber, and interchangeable
> magazines.
>
Oh..I realize that...about the legality of buying fully automatic
weapons and what the states are calling assault weapons. Too bad the
good legislators of CA and the rest of those United States (and for
that matter, certain Central American countries) don't understand the
definitions of what is and isn't an assault rifle or weapon.

FWIW...Honduras is modeling it's firearms laws on those of the US....so
pretty soon, only the Maras (the gangs) will be armed. Fine, upstanding
citizens have had to register their weapons and have most, if not all
of their semiautomatic weapons confiscated.

And...yipee...last day of school tomorrow...a week's vacation.

OB FOOD....Semana Santa is coming up....Easter Week or Holy Week in
English. That means the stores are going to be brimming with the
nastiest smelling dried salted fish in preparation. This town rolls up
the sidewalks Wednesday night and things don't open back up til
essentially the Monday after Easter. No grocery stores, no markets, a
few convenience places (pulperias) and worst of all....the DRY LAWS go
in effect from 6 a.m. Holy Thursday til late Easter Sunday evening.

Sandi

You should put a spew alert. :-))

None of those good ol farm boys hanging around with machine shops on
site could possibly do that either. :-)

Sandi

"Sandi" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> You should put a spew alert. :-))
>
> None of those good ol farm boys hanging around with machine shops on
> site could possibly do that either. :-)
>
> Sandi
>

Nope. But, I once altered an internal part on an old Penn fishing feel,
using a fine hand file. It wouldn't have worked on a gun, though, because
they're made of gun metal. This was fishing reel metal.

Doug Kanter wrote:
> "Sandi" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > You should put a spew alert. :-))
> >
> > None of those good ol farm boys hanging around with machine shops
on
> > site could possibly do that either. :-)
> >
> > Sandi
> >
>
> Nope. But, I once altered an internal part on an old Penn fishing
feel,
> using a fine hand file. It wouldn't have worked on a gun, though,
because
> they're made of gun metal. This was fishing reel metal.

>From which pinhole of your pea brain do you retrieve such inane
babble... modern gunmetal (one word) refers to color, not hardness...
and there is no such thing as any particular fishing reel metal.

M-W

gun=B7met=B7al

noun
Date: 1541
1 : a metal used for guns; specifically : a bronze formerly much used
as a material for cannon
2 : an alloy or metal treated to imitate nearly black tarnished
copper-alloy gunmetal=20
3 : a bluish gray color=20
---

Sheldon