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Default My ongoing pizza trouble

Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
I tried up top in oven and down low.
I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
The pies are really good but could be better.
What do I need to do to get the crust better?
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On 6/19/2020 5:05 PM, Thomas wrote:
> Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
> Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
> I tried up top in oven and down low.
> I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
> The pies are really good but could be better.
> What do I need to do to get the crust better?
>


How long do you heat up the stone? I always gave it 20 to 30 minutes.
Bottom rack. Could your sauce be making your crust too wet before it
bakes?
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On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 5:05:58 PM UTC-4, Thomas wrote:
> Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
> Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
> I tried up top in oven and down low.
> I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
> The pies are really good but could be better.
> What do I need to do to get the crust better?


This will be sacrilege to some, but consider baking your pizzas in pans. Sheet pans, cake pans, whatever, thin aluminum. And coating the pans generously with oil (and a little coarse corn meal for effect) so that the bottoms of the pies "fry" in the oil at normal "high" home oven temperatures. Lower rack, of course. Result is a crunchy bottom, not a real char, but still pretty stiff and tasty, and it happens before the top gets burnt.

(I incidentally have a batch of pizza dough (75% hydration) resting in the fridge for home made pizza tomorrow or the next night.)

(And here's something that might elicit your envy or sympathy: I live in a very old (for the USA) New England farmhouse. It's a "center chimney colonial" style house. Said center chimney has five fireplaces and one ... beehive oven. Which would be perfect for pizza (or any wood-fired bread) except for the fact that the last owner who "renovated" the place covered over the oven with a wood (wood! you know, like the stuff that burns!) facing. In years of looking at it, I haven't figured our how to return it to usability without destroying an entire wall in the kitchen.)

--
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Silvar Beitel wrote:
....
> (And here's something that might elicit your envy or sympathy: I live in a very old (for the USA) New England farmhouse. It's a "center chimney colonial" style house. Said center chimney has five fireplaces and one ... beehive oven. Which would be perfect for pizza (or any wood-fired bread) except for the fact that the last owner who "renovated" the place covered over the oven with a wood (wood! you know, like the stuff that burns!) facing. In years of looking at it, I haven't figured our how to return it to usability without destroying an entire wall in the kitchen.)


that's sad for sure...


songbird
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Default My ongoing pizza trouble

Silvar...what a nice post


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On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 12:17:20 PM UTC-10, Silvar Beitel wrote:
> On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 5:05:58 PM UTC-4, Thomas wrote:
> > Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
> > Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
> > I tried up top in oven and down low.
> > I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
> > The pies are really good but could be better.
> > What do I need to do to get the crust better?

>
> This will be sacrilege to some, but consider baking your pizzas in pans. Sheet pans, cake pans, whatever, thin aluminum. And coating the pans generously with oil (and a little coarse corn meal for effect) so that the bottoms of the pies "fry" in the oil at normal "high" home oven temperatures. Lower rack, of course. Result is a crunchy bottom, not a real char, but still pretty stiff and tasty, and it happens before the top gets burnt.
>
> (I incidentally have a batch of pizza dough (75% hydration) resting in the fridge for home made pizza tomorrow or the next night.)
>
> (And here's something that might elicit your envy or sympathy: I live in a very old (for the USA) New England farmhouse. It's a "center chimney colonial" style house. Said center chimney has five fireplaces and one ... beehive oven. Which would be perfect for pizza (or any wood-fired bread) except for the fact that the last owner who "renovated" the place covered over the oven with a wood (wood! you know, like the stuff that burns!) facing. In years of looking at it, I haven't figured our how to return it to usability without destroying an entire wall in the kitchen.)
>
> --
> Silvar Beitel


I have made fried crust pizza. It's always an option. I'll make it about 50% of the time. I like to make it for the kids - they seem to like it better.. As it goes, it's easier to eat because it's easy to bite into. OTOH, here's a picture of a regular crust pizza.

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared...kQE5L5Gx_r5xtt
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Default My ongoing pizza trouble

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 18:16:53 -0700 (PDT), Thomas >
wrote:

>Silvar...what a nice post


Where?
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On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 18:38:34 -0700 (PDT), dsi1
> wrote:

>On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 12:17:20 PM UTC-10, Silvar Beitel wrote:
>> On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 5:05:58 PM UTC-4, Thomas wrote:
>> > Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
>> > Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
>> > I tried up top in oven and down low.
>> > I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
>> > The pies are really good but could be better.
>> > What do I need to do to get the crust better?

>>
>> This will be sacrilege to some, but consider baking your pizzas in pans. Sheet pans, cake pans, whatever, thin aluminum. And coating the pans generously with oil (and a little coarse corn meal for effect) so that the bottoms of the pies "fry" in the oil at normal "high" home oven temperatures. Lower rack, of course. Result is a crunchy bottom, not a real char, but still pretty stiff and tasty, and it happens before the top gets burnt.
>>
>> (I incidentally have a batch of pizza dough (75% hydration) resting in the fridge for home made pizza tomorrow or the next night.)
>>
>> (And here's something that might elicit your envy or sympathy: I live in a very old (for the USA) New England farmhouse. It's a "center chimney colonial" style house. Said center chimney has five fireplaces and one ... beehive oven. Which would be perfect for pizza (or any wood-fired bread) except for the fact that the last owner who "renovated" the place covered over the oven with a wood (wood! you know, like the stuff that burns!) facing. In years of looking at it, I haven't figured our how to return it to usability without destroying an entire wall in the kitchen.)
>>
>> --
>> Silvar Beitel

>
>I have made fried crust pizza. It's always an option.


That's true. Every day one has to decide: shall I make a fried crust
pizza today or not. Most of the time, the answer will be No.

> I'll make it about 50% of the time. I like to make it for the kids -
> they seem to like it better. As it goes, it's easier to eat because
> it's easy to bite into. OTOH, here's a picture of a regular crust
> pizza.
>
>https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared...kQE5L5Gx_r5xtt


That's a very American pizza. I hereby declare you a humble Hawaiian
American.
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Bruce wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 18:38:34 -0700 (PDT), dsi1
> > wrote:
>
>> On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 12:17:20 PM UTC-10, Silvar Beitel wrote:
>>> On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 5:05:58 PM UTC-4, Thomas wrote:
>>>> Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
>>>> Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
>>>> I tried up top in oven and down low.
>>>> I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
>>>> The pies are really good but could be better.
>>>> What do I need to do to get the crust better?
>>>
>>> This will be sacrilege to some, but consider baking your pizzas in pans. Sheet pans, cake pans, whatever, thin aluminum. And coating the pans generously with oil (and a little coarse corn meal for effect) so that the bottoms of the pies "fry" in the oil at normal "high" home oven temperatures. Lower rack, of course. Result is a crunchy bottom, not a real char, but still pretty stiff and tasty, and it happens before the top gets burnt.
>>>
>>> (I incidentally have a batch of pizza dough (75% hydration) resting in the fridge for home made pizza tomorrow or the next night.)
>>>
>>> (And here's something that might elicit your envy or sympathy: I live in a very old (for the USA) New England farmhouse. It's a "center chimney colonial" style house. Said center chimney has five fireplaces and one ... beehive oven. Which would be perfect for pizza (or any wood-fired bread) except for the fact that the last owner who "renovated" the place covered over the oven with a wood (wood! you know, like the stuff that burns!) facing. In years of looking at it, I haven't figured our how to return it to usability without destroying an entire wall in the kitchen.)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Silvar Beitel

>>
>> I have made fried crust pizza. It's always an option.

>
> That's true. Every day one has to decide: shall I make a fried crust
> pizza today or not. Most of the time, the answer will be No.
>
>> I'll make it about 50% of the time. I like to make it for the kids -
>> they seem to like it better. As it goes, it's easier to eat because
>> it's easy to bite into. OTOH, here's a picture of a regular crust
>> pizza.
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared...kQE5L5Gx_r5xtt

>
> That's a very American pizza. I hereby declare you a humble Hawaiian
> American.
>


Americans are so low class. Why does an otherwise noble person such
as yourself have to constantly refer to these disgusting cretins?

It just makes me close to vomiting.






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Silvar Beitel > writes:

> On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 5:05:58 PM UTC-4, Thomas wrote:
>> Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
>> Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
>> I tried up top in oven and down low.
>> I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
>> The pies are really good but could be better.
>> What do I need to do to get the crust better?

>
> This will be sacrilege to some, but consider baking your pizzas in
> pans. Sheet pans, cake pans, whatever, thin aluminum. And coating
> the pans generously with oil (and a little coarse corn meal for
> effect) so that the bottoms of the pies "fry" in the oil at normal
> "high" home oven temperatures. Lower rack, of course. Result is a
> crunchy bottom, not a real char, but still pretty stiff and tasty, and
> it happens before the top gets burnt.


I don't think it's sacrilege but it sounds like a great technique for
making pizza. But this doesn't answer Thomas' question. But, your
technique sounds nice. I happened to make pizza tonight. Used my bread
machine to make the dough while I napped.

I believe the browning of the crust entails sugars in the dough. A
number of years ago I read an op-ed on why New York style pizza is
considered the best. My takeaway was that they proof their dough, at
least the ones interviewed, for up to seventy-two hours. The long
process forms sugars which caramelize during baking and gives the crust
that telltale browning.

Of you can add sugar to the dough to achieve the same browning. I did
some research to find that article with no luck. But, now, there are a
number of sites out there discussing it.

https://www.bakingsteel.com/blog/72-hour-pizza-dough

>
> (I incidentally have a batch of pizza dough (75% hydration) resting in
> the fridge for home made pizza tomorrow or the next night.)


How do you control the hydration?

--
Daniel
Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world


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Ed Pawlowski > writes:

> On 6/19/2020 5:05 PM, Thomas wrote:
>> Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
>> Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
>> I tried up top in oven and down low.
>> I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
>> The pies are really good but could be better.
>> What do I need to do to get the crust better?
>>

>
> How long do you heat up the stone? I always gave it 20 to 30
> minutes. Bottom rack. Could your sauce be making your crust too wet
> before it bakes?


Speaking of sauces. Does anyone have a tried and true red pizza sauce
recipe? I just wing it with canned tomato sauce, herbs, salt, pepper, sugar.

--
Daniel

Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
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Default My ongoing pizza trouble

dsi1 wrote:
OTOH, here's a picture of a regular crust pizza.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared...kQE5L5Gx_r5xtt


Looks quite tasty to me.
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On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 11:47:28 +0100, Janet > wrote:

>In article >, says...
>>
>> On 6/19/2020 5:05 PM, Thomas wrote:
>> > Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
>> > Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
>> > I tried up top in oven and down low.
>> > I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
>> > The pies are really good but could be better.
>> > What do I need to do to get the crust better?
>> >

>>
>> How long do you heat up the stone? I always gave it 20 to 30 minutes.
>> Bottom rack. Could your sauce be making your crust too wet before it
>> bakes?

>
> Forget the stone, its just a fancy folderol.


'Zactly! Pizza stones are just an added expense for those who know
zero about cooking. As soon as a raw cold pizza is placed on a heated
stone it's temperature drops signicantly into the COLD zone and a home
oven can't reheat it for at least 10 minutes. Most pizzarias with
real pizza ovens use perforated pizza pans for baking and that's what
I've been using for some 40 years. The pizza in the perforated pan
should be set to serve in its matching deep dish pan to prevent
condensation at the bottom of the pizza. When a hot from the oven
pizza is set on a solid metal serving pan or in a cardboard pizza box
condensation occurs removing the crispness of the pizza crust.
A real modern pizza oven has electric elements embedded inside the
stone bottom or they use the original style oven with the flames from
wood/coal/gas licking the bottom of the fire bricks.



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On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 8:46:41 AM UTC-4, Sheldon wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 11:47:28 +0100, Janet > wrote:
>
> >In article >, says...
> >>
> >> On 6/19/2020 5:05 PM, Thomas wrote:
> >> > Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
> >> > Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
> >> > I tried up top in oven and down low.
> >> > I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
> >> > The pies are really good but could be better.
> >> > What do I need to do to get the crust better?
> >> >
> >>
> >> How long do you heat up the stone? I always gave it 20 to 30 minutes.
> >> Bottom rack. Could your sauce be making your crust too wet before it
> >> bakes?

> >
> > Forget the stone, its just a fancy folderol.

>
> 'Zactly! Pizza stones are just an added expense for those who know
> zero about cooking. As soon as a raw cold pizza is placed on a heated
> stone it's temperature drops signicantly into the COLD zone and a home
> oven can't reheat it for at least 10 minutes. Most pizzarias with
> real pizza ovens use perforated pizza pans for baking and that's what
> I've been using for some 40 years. The pizza in the perforated pan
> should be set to serve in its matching deep dish pan to prevent
> condensation at the bottom of the pizza. When a hot from the oven
> pizza is set on a solid metal serving pan or in a cardboard pizza box
> condensation occurs removing the crispness of the pizza crust.
> A real modern pizza oven has electric elements embedded inside the
> stone bottom or they use the original style oven with the flames from
> wood/coal/gas licking the bottom of the fire bricks.


Or, there's this:

<https://chicago.eater.com/2017/10/18/16501088/anthonys-coal-fired-pizza-chicago-restaurants-lombard-kildeer-orland-park-suburbs>

A lot of places are going old school. We've got two or three wood-
or coal-fired pizza places in our town of 120,000.

Cindy Hamilton
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On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 Gary wrote:
>Janet wrote:
>> esp@snet wrote:
>> > On 6/19/2020 Thomas wrote:
>> >
>> > > Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
>> > > Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
>> > > I tried up top in oven and down low.
>> > > I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
>> > > The pies are really good but could be better.
>> > > What do I need to do to get the crust better?
>> >
>> > How long do you heat up the stone? I always gave it 20 to 30 minutes.
>> > Bottom rack. Could your sauce be making your crust too wet before it
>> > bakes?

>>
>> Forget the stone, its just a fancy folderol.
>>
>> Cook your pizza on a thin metal tray (such as a cookie tray; or a
>> roasting tin turned upside down).
>>
>> Preheat the oven, arrange pizza on cold tray, place tray on shelf in
>> oven.

>
>I always cook my pizzas on a 16" round tray. No oil on the tray.
>Cook for 20 minutes at 425F and it always turns out nice.


Pizza bakes best on a perforated metal pan or a pizza screen:
https://www.amazon.com/perforated-pi...ated+pizza+pan
https://www.amazon.com/slp/pizza-screen/mnefzdp4k8gt5mh

I have the Chicago Metallic pizza pan set; perforated pan, deep dish
pan, and pizza knife... may need to buy it separately now. The
perforated pan sits atop the deep dish pan so there's a space
underneath for ventilation, no condensation:
https://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Metal.../dp/B003YKGS36
The deep dish pizza pan is also my sticky bun pan.

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"dsi1" wrote in message
...

On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 12:17:20 PM UTC-10, Silvar Beitel wrote:
> On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 5:05:58 PM UTC-4, Thomas wrote:
> > Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
> > Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to
> > nicley brown before burning top.
> > I tried up top in oven and down low.
> > I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
> > The pies are really good but could be better.
> > What do I need to do to get the crust better?

>
> This will be sacrilege to some, but consider baking your pizzas in pans.
> Sheet pans, cake pans, whatever, thin aluminum. And coating the pans
> generously with oil (and a little coarse corn meal for effect) so that the
> bottoms of the pies "fry" in the oil at normal "high" home oven
> temperatures. Lower rack, of course. Result is a crunchy bottom, not a
> real char, but still pretty stiff and tasty, and it happens before the top
> gets burnt.
>
> (I incidentally have a batch of pizza dough (75% hydration) resting in the
> fridge for home made pizza tomorrow or the next night.)
>
> (And here's something that might elicit your envy or sympathy: I live in
> a very old (for the USA) New England farmhouse. It's a "center chimney
> colonial" style house. Said center chimney has five fireplaces and one
> ... beehive oven. Which would be perfect for pizza (or any wood-fired
> bread) except for the fact that the last owner who "renovated" the place
> covered over the oven with a wood (wood! you know, like the stuff that
> burns!) facing. In years of looking at it, I haven't figured our how to
> return it to usability without destroying an entire wall in the kitchen.)
>
> --
> Silvar Beitel


I have made fried crust pizza. It's always an option. I'll make it about 50%
of the time. I like to make it for the kids - they seem to like it better.
As it goes, it's easier to eat because it's easy to bite into. OTOH, here's
a picture of a regular crust pizza.

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared...kQE5L5Gx_r5xtt

==

oooh that look lovely. I tend to spread tom paste on the top, put the
filling on and cover with cheese. What do you do differently? Is that the
fried pizza?

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On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 4:51:18 AM UTC-4, Daniel wrote:
> Silvar Beitel > writes:
> > (I incidentally have a batch of pizza dough (75% hydration) resting in
> > the fridge for home made pizza tomorrow or the next night.)

>
> How do you control the hydration?


I just measure the flour and water by weight. At high hydration, I doubt storage room or proofing box humidity make much of a difference, but I don't have enough experience to be certain.

--
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Sheldon Martin wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 Gary wrote:
> >I always cook my pizzas on a 16" round tray. No oil on the tray.
> >Cook for 20 minutes at 425F and it always turns out nice.

>
> Pizza bakes best on a perforated metal pan or a pizza screen:


No. I have a perforated pan and it was a waste of money.
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On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 4:53:27 AM UTC-4, Daniel wrote:
> Speaking of sauces. Does anyone have a tried and true red pizza sauce
> recipe? I just wing it with canned tomato sauce, herbs, salt, pepper, sugar.


I have experimented for years and have settled on this. It's fairly thick but easily spreadable and for me, it just ain't pizza unless it has fennel in the sauce.

8 oz. can of tomato sauce
8 oz. can of tomato paste
1 Tbsp. dry Italian herb blend
1/2 tsp. salt (or more or less, depending on the salt in the tomato sauce and paste)
1/2 tsp. black pepper
1 tsp. fennel seeds

Stir it all together in a plastic container (old peanut butter jar is perfect). Use some for your current pizza(s), throw the jar in the freezer for next time(s).

--
Silvar Beitel

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On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 06:34:18 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> wrote:

>On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 8:46:41 AM UTC-4, Sheldon wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 11:47:28 +0100, Janet > wrote:
>>
>> >In article >, says...
>> >>
>> >> On 6/19/2020 5:05 PM, Thomas wrote:
>> >> > Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
>> >> > Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
>> >> > I tried up top in oven and down low.
>> >> > I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
>> >> > The pies are really good but could be better.
>> >> > What do I need to do to get the crust better?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> How long do you heat up the stone? I always gave it 20 to 30 minutes.
>> >> Bottom rack. Could your sauce be making your crust too wet before it
>> >> bakes?
>> >
>> > Forget the stone, its just a fancy folderol.

>>
>> 'Zactly! Pizza stones are just an added expense for those who know
>> zero about cooking. As soon as a raw cold pizza is placed on a heated
>> stone it's temperature drops signicantly into the COLD zone and a home
>> oven can't reheat it for at least 10 minutes. Most pizzarias with
>> real pizza ovens use perforated pizza pans for baking and that's what
>> I've been using for some 40 years. The pizza in the perforated pan
>> should be set to serve in its matching deep dish pan to prevent
>> condensation at the bottom of the pizza. When a hot from the oven
>> pizza is set on a solid metal serving pan or in a cardboard pizza box
>> condensation occurs removing the crispness of the pizza crust.
>> A real modern pizza oven has electric elements embedded inside the
>> stone bottom or they use the original style oven with the flames from
>> wood/coal/gas licking the bottom of the fire bricks.

>
>Or, there's this:
>
><https://chicago.eater.com/2017/10/18/16501088/anthonys-coal-fired-pizza-chicago-restaurants-lombard-kildeer-orland-park-suburbs>
>
>A lot of places are going old school. We've got two or three wood-
>or coal-fired pizza places in our town of 120,000.
>
>Cindy Hamilton


You didn't read my post with comprehension, I mentioned wood/coal
pizza ovens, but how many can have such at home... the Fire
Underwriters won't permit new pizza parlors to install such nor to
replace such. Nowadays many insurerers won't offer fire insurance to
homeowners using a fireplace. We had to sign a waiver document for
Allstate that we don't use our fireplace... we never have... we have
an electric thingie inserted that rotatets and looks like flames and
it crackles.
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On 2020-06-20 9:32 a.m., Silvar Beitel wrote:
> On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 4:51:18 AM UTC-4, Daniel wrote:
>> Silvar Beitel > writes:
>>> (I incidentally have a batch of pizza dough (75% hydration) resting in
>>> the fridge for home made pizza tomorrow or the next night.)

>>
>> How do you control the hydration?

>
> I just measure the flour and water by weight. At high hydration, I doubt storage room or proofing box humidity make much of a difference, but I don't have enough experience to be certain.
>

Is the 75% hydration for bread or AP flour? It seems a bit high for "00"
Italian flour.
Graham
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On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 7:46:41 AM UTC-5, Sheldon wrote:
>
> 'Zactly! Pizza stones are just an added expense for those who know
> zero about cooking. As soon as a raw cold pizza is placed on a heated
> stone it's temperature drops signicantly into the COLD zone and a home
> oven can't reheat it for at least 10 minutes.
>

I've always read those pizza stones should be preheated for at least an
hour in the home oven. Heating for twenty minutes does not even begin
to get it hot.
>
> Most pizzarias with
> real pizza ovens use perforated pizza pans for baking and that's what
> I've been using for some 40 years. The pizza in the perforated pan
> should be set to serve in its matching deep dish pan to prevent
> condensation at the bottom of the pizza.
>

My favorite pizza joint does not have a stone oven nor do they use any type
of pan. Also, they don't serve any type of 'pan' pizza. It is a gas oven
with a conveyor belt the pizza rides on traveling through the oven. The
pizzas come out perfectly browned on the bottom and somewhat crispy. No
floppy slices of pizza when they're picked up from the plate but not stiff
as a board either.

Before you go off on a tangent they had to install a pizza oven that fits
the space of their establishment. The pizza must be darn good as they
never lack for customers.

At home when I do a Newman's Own it says to cook the pizza directly on the
oven rack. Do not use a pan of any sort if you want a browned bottom crust.
I do as the instructions say and I end up with a perfect crispy crust every
time.


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On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 10:44:15 AM UTC-5, Gary wrote:
>
> Sheldon Martin wrote:
> >
> > Pizza bakes best on a perforated metal pan or a pizza screen:

>
> No. I have a perforated pan and it was a waste of money.
>

I've got one, too. If we lived near Sheldon we could gift him those
useless pans.
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On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 12:35:21 PM UTC-4, Sheldon wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 06:34:18 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> > wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 8:46:41 AM UTC-4, Sheldon wrote:
> >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 11:47:28 +0100, Janet > wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article >, says...
> >> >>
> >> >> On 6/19/2020 5:05 PM, Thomas wrote:
> >> >> > Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
> >> >> > Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
> >> >> > I tried up top in oven and down low.
> >> >> > I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
> >> >> > The pies are really good but could be better.
> >> >> > What do I need to do to get the crust better?
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> How long do you heat up the stone? I always gave it 20 to 30 minutes.
> >> >> Bottom rack. Could your sauce be making your crust too wet before it
> >> >> bakes?
> >> >
> >> > Forget the stone, its just a fancy folderol.
> >>
> >> 'Zactly! Pizza stones are just an added expense for those who know
> >> zero about cooking. As soon as a raw cold pizza is placed on a heated
> >> stone it's temperature drops signicantly into the COLD zone and a home
> >> oven can't reheat it for at least 10 minutes. Most pizzarias with
> >> real pizza ovens use perforated pizza pans for baking and that's what
> >> I've been using for some 40 years. The pizza in the perforated pan
> >> should be set to serve in its matching deep dish pan to prevent
> >> condensation at the bottom of the pizza. When a hot from the oven
> >> pizza is set on a solid metal serving pan or in a cardboard pizza box
> >> condensation occurs removing the crispness of the pizza crust.
> >> A real modern pizza oven has electric elements embedded inside the
> >> stone bottom or they use the original style oven with the flames from
> >> wood/coal/gas licking the bottom of the fire bricks.

> >
> >Or, there's this:
> >
> ><https://chicago.eater.com/2017/10/18/16501088/anthonys-coal-fired-pizza-chicago-restaurants-lombard-kildeer-orland-park-suburbs>
> >
> >A lot of places are going old school. We've got two or three wood-
> >or coal-fired pizza places in our town of 120,000.
> >
> >Cindy Hamilton

>
> You didn't read my post with comprehension, I mentioned wood/coal
> pizza ovens, but how many can have such at home...


Outdoors? Anybody who doesn't live in mobbed-up Nazi land. A kit costs
as little as $200.

Indoors it requires more money.

> the Fire
> Underwriters won't permit new pizza parlors to install such nor to
> replace such.


See above, mobbed-up Nazi land. Nearly every restaurant in Michigan that
uses wood or coal had their oven installed in the last 10 years.

> Nowadays many insurerers won't offer fire insurance to
> homeowners using a fireplace. We had to sign a waiver document for
> Allstate that we don't use our fireplace... we never have... we have
> an electric thingie inserted that rotatets and looks like flames and
> it crackles.


State Farm didn't say anything about our fire place.

Cindy Hamilton
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On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 12:46:05 PM UTC-4, graham wrote:
> On 2020-06-20 9:32 a.m., Silvar Beitel wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 4:51:18 AM UTC-4, Daniel wrote:
> >> Silvar Beitel > writes:
> >>> (I incidentally have a batch of pizza dough (75% hydration) resting in
> >>> the fridge for home made pizza tomorrow or the next night.)
> >>
> >> How do you control the hydration?

> >
> > I just measure the flour and water by weight. At high hydration, I doubt storage room or proofing box humidity make much of a difference, but I don't have enough experience to be certain.
> >

> Is the 75% hydration for bread or AP flour? It seems a bit high for "00"
> Italian flour.
> Graham


Bread flour, specifically King Arthur. I never remember to put OO on my grocery list, so I've never tried it. But thanks to you, it's on there now. :-) And of course, if you think your dough is too wet, you can always work in a bit more while you're handling it.

--
Silvar Beitel
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On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 14:05:54 -0700 (PDT), Thomas >
wrote:

>Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
>Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to nicley brown before burning top.
>I tried up top in oven and down low.
>I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
>The pies are really good but could be better.
>What do I need to do to get the crust better?



well I can tell you first of all that in a closed oven that is WAY WAY
WAY to hot. When making pizza your oven should NEVER be over 400
degrees. Do not worry about what the recipe book says or what you saw
on tv. Pizza should NEVER be cooked over 400 F in a closed oven.

After your dough is dressed place it in a 400 f oven for NO MORE than
7 minutes!
BTW pizza stones are a waste of money when cooking in a closed oven

--

____/~~~sine qua non~~~\____
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wrote:
> On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 7:46:41 AM UTC-5, Sheldon wrote:
>>
>> 'Zactly! Pizza stones are just an added expense for those who know
>> zero about cooking. As soon as a raw cold pizza is placed on a heated
>> stone it's temperature drops signicantly into the COLD zone and a home
>> oven can't reheat it for at least 10 minutes.
>>

> I've always read those pizza stones should be preheated for at least an
> hour in the home oven. Heating for twenty minutes does not even begin
> to get it hot.
>>
>> Most pizzarias with
>> real pizza ovens use perforated pizza pans for baking and that's what
>> I've been using for some 40 years. The pizza in the perforated pan
>> should be set to serve in its matching deep dish pan to prevent
>> condensation at the bottom of the pizza.
>>

> My favorite pizza joint does not have a stone oven nor do they use any type
> of pan. Also, they don't serve any type of 'pan' pizza. It is a gas oven
> with a conveyor belt the pizza rides on traveling through the oven. The
> pizzas come out perfectly browned on the bottom and somewhat crispy. No
> floppy slices of pizza when they're picked up from the plate but not stiff
> as a board either.
>
> Before you go off on a tangent they had to install a pizza oven that fits
> the space of their establishment. The pizza must be darn good as they
> never lack for customers.
>
> At home when I do a Newman's Own it says to cook the pizza directly on the
> oven rack. Do not use a pan of any sort if you want a browned bottom crust.
> I do as the instructions say and I end up with a perfect crispy crust every
> time.
>


Newman ain't as smart as Popeye




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On 2020-06-20 11:13 a.m., Silvar Beitel wrote:
> On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 12:46:05 PM UTC-4, graham wrote:
>> On 2020-06-20 9:32 a.m., Silvar Beitel wrote:
>>> On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 4:51:18 AM UTC-4, Daniel wrote:
>>>> Silvar Beitel > writes:
>>>>> (I incidentally have a batch of pizza dough (75% hydration) resting in
>>>>> the fridge for home made pizza tomorrow or the next night.)
>>>>
>>>> How do you control the hydration?
>>>
>>> I just measure the flour and water by weight. At high hydration, I doubt storage room or proofing box humidity make much of a difference, but I don't have enough experience to be certain.
>>>

>> Is the 75% hydration for bread or AP flour? It seems a bit high for "00"
>> Italian flour.
>> Graham

>
> Bread flour, specifically King Arthur. I never remember to put OO on my grocery list, so I've never tried it. But thanks to you, it's on there now. :-) And of course, if you think your dough is too wet, you can always work in a bit more while you're handling it.
> I make mine in the food processor using the dough blade so it's easy to

adjust the hydration. When you try the "00", start off at 65% the add a
bit more water if you feel you need to. You should be OK to 70%. You
will find the crust is more tender. My teenager grandchildren raved
about the crust when I first made it for them. As a result, I
occasionally have to make a bunch of these bases for my son's family.
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On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 4:58:50 AM UTC-10, Ophelia wrote:
> "dsi1" wrote in message
> ...
>
> On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 12:17:20 PM UTC-10, Silvar Beitel wrote:
> > On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 5:05:58 PM UTC-4, Thomas wrote:
> > > Using 00 flour, making thin pies.
> > > Cuisinart stone in oven. Whether 550 deg or 450 i cannot get crust to
> > > nicley brown before burning top.
> > > I tried up top in oven and down low.
> > > I tried low then opening oven door to let top heat out.
> > > The pies are really good but could be better.
> > > What do I need to do to get the crust better?

> >
> > This will be sacrilege to some, but consider baking your pizzas in pans..
> > Sheet pans, cake pans, whatever, thin aluminum. And coating the pans
> > generously with oil (and a little coarse corn meal for effect) so that the
> > bottoms of the pies "fry" in the oil at normal "high" home oven
> > temperatures. Lower rack, of course. Result is a crunchy bottom, not a
> > real char, but still pretty stiff and tasty, and it happens before the top
> > gets burnt.
> >
> > (I incidentally have a batch of pizza dough (75% hydration) resting in the
> > fridge for home made pizza tomorrow or the next night.)
> >
> > (And here's something that might elicit your envy or sympathy: I live in
> > a very old (for the USA) New England farmhouse. It's a "center chimney
> > colonial" style house. Said center chimney has five fireplaces and one
> > ... beehive oven. Which would be perfect for pizza (or any wood-fired
> > bread) except for the fact that the last owner who "renovated" the place
> > covered over the oven with a wood (wood! you know, like the stuff that
> > burns!) facing. In years of looking at it, I haven't figured our how to
> > return it to usability without destroying an entire wall in the kitchen..)
> >
> > --
> > Silvar Beitel

>
> I have made fried crust pizza. It's always an option. I'll make it about 50%
> of the time. I like to make it for the kids - they seem to like it better..
> As it goes, it's easier to eat because it's easy to bite into. OTOH, here's
> a picture of a regular crust pizza.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared...kQE5L5Gx_r5xtt
>
> ==
>
> oooh that look lovely. I tend to spread tom paste on the top, put the
> filling on and cover with cheese. What do you do differently? Is that the
> fried pizza?


I'll open up a can of tomato paste and spread that on the dough, then sprinkle with salt and pepper. Then I hit it with a big container of spaghetti seasoning. You can use tomato sauce instead of paste if you want it to be more saucy but I hardly ever do. That is not a fried pizza - it's just a regular one.

If I got a jar of pesto, I'll use that.

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared...9ek6sGqFXHtM5r
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On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 12:43:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>
> well I can tell you first of all that in a closed oven that is WAY WAY
> WAY to hot. When making pizza your oven should NEVER be over 400
> degrees. Do not worry about what the recipe book says or what you saw
> on tv. Pizza should NEVER be cooked over 400 F in a closed oven.
>
> After your dough is dressed place it in a 400 f oven for NO MORE than
> 7 minutes!
> BTW pizza stones are a waste of money when cooking in a closed oven
>

Well, Crusty Kruller, I bake mine, store-bought mind you, according to
the package directions. 415° for 11-13 minutes; shocking, isn't it?
On top of that, my gas oven actually has a pizza setting that will
heat the oven to the desired temperature without me setting it to 415°..

These new-fangled appliances are amazing; it even cleans itself.
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On 6/20/2020 10:13 AM, Silvar Beitel wrote:
> On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 12:46:05 PM UTC-4, graham wrote:
>> On 2020-06-20 9:32 a.m., Silvar Beitel wrote:
>>> On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 4:51:18 AM UTC-4, Daniel wrote:
>>>> Silvar Beitel > writes:
>>>>> (I incidentally have a batch of pizza dough (75% hydration) resting in
>>>>> the fridge for home made pizza tomorrow or the next night.)
>>>>
>>>> How do you control the hydration?
>>>
>>> I just measure the flour and water by weight. At high hydration, I doubt storage room or proofing box humidity make much of a difference, but I don't have enough experience to be certain.
>>>

>> Is the 75% hydration for bread or AP flour? It seems a bit high for "00"
>> Italian flour.
>> Graham

>
> Bread flour, specifically King Arthur. I never remember to put OO on my grocery list, so I've never tried it. But thanks to you, it's on there now. :-) And of course, if you think your dough is too wet, you can always work in a bit more while you're handling it.
>



anyone tried to create their own 00 flour using a Vitamix?
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On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 1:02:10 PM UTC-5, dsi1 wrote:
> https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared...9ek6sGqFXHtM5r
>

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 1:16:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 1:02:10 PM UTC-5, dsi1 wrote:
> > https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared...9ek6sGqFXHtM5r
> >

> Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


*I* don't want ANYTHING by that Jeff Bezos' Amazon on MY computer, thank you very much!

John Kuthe...
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John Kuthe wrote:
> On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 1:16:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>> On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 1:02:10 PM UTC-5, dsi1 wrote:
>>> https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared...9ek6sGqFXHtM5r
>>>

>> Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

>
> *I* don't want ANYTHING by that Jeff Bezos' Amazon on MY computer, thank you very much!
>
> John Kuthe...
>


Why? Did old Bezos ream out your ass kuth?




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