Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence
on recipies to a more logical approach to cooking.

I have some boiled chicken (remains of making soup) and wish to serve
it over rice. Previous posting about gravies and sauces points out I
can contrast the meat with the sauce; since this is rice and boiled
chicken pieces, it seems a rich sauce would be more appropriate than
say a bechamel (sp?)

I have some bacon grease (blush) stored away for my Lousiana moments,
and it seemed to me that if I was thinking rich, the flavor of the
grease would be a good start. So I started with a roux, brought to a
rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth (previous thread from
a reasonable cook: Swanson's lo-sodium broths make a reasonable
substitute for stock). Stir like mad to disolve the lumps and begin to
reduce, tasting as I go.

Reduced for about :10 and tasted; added pepper and a pinch of cayenne.
Stirred- still sort of bland - that's where my imagination abandoned
me.

Added the chicken chunks to warm and served over rice.

Bland, bland, bland and this morning I have a leftover taste in my
mouth I attribute to bacon grease.

Would like to hear what I logically did right/wrong here - Thanks,
Mike

in article , Michael Horowitz at
wrote on 2/7/04 7:44 AM:

> Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence
> on recipies to a more logical approach to cooking.
>

There is a book called "How to Cook Without a Book : Recipes and Techniques
Every Cook Should Know by Heart" by Pamela Anderson.

Here is the link to it from Amazon.com:
http://tinyurl.com/yvaqg

Might be worth your investment.

Good luck.

>Michael Horowitz
>
>I have some boiled chicken
>So I started with a roux, brought to a
>rich choc. color.

Dark brown sauce with chicken... blech!

>I add a can of beef broth

Beef broth with chicken... BLECH!

>that's where my imagination abandoned
>me.

What makes you think you have an imagination... you do not... what you have is
called *nightmare*.

>Would like to hear what I logically did <STRIKE>right</STRIKE>/wrong here

You entered the kitchen... STAY OUT!

Your ilk would do better on the couch in front of the tube with your case of
canned brew, and if you get an itch to feel culinary, suck on a Slim Jim and if
you wanna try your hand at creativity shove a sprig of parsley up your ass.
Imagine that!

Ahahahahahahahahaha. . . .


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 14:20:38 GMT, Sheryl Rosen
> wrote:

>Michael Horowitz wrote on 2/7/04 7:44 AM:
>
>> Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence
>> on recipies to a more logical approach to cooking.
>
>There is a book called "How to Cook Without a Book : Recipes and Techniques
>Every Cook Should Know by Heart" by Pamela Anderson.
>
>Here is the link to it from Amazon.com:
>http://tinyurl.com/yvaqg

Surely not *that* Pamela Anderson?! :-)

>Would like to hear what I logically did right/wrong here

Don't try to treat soup stock remains as the basis of serious food. Bland
bland bland isn't worth dressing up.

I don't like the idea of starting with bacon grease. Butter would have been a
better idea, in the absence of pan drippings.

I'll give you a pass on the canned consumé.

You didn't salt it, did you? That would have helped.

So would a good dribble of sherry.

(Mr. Penmart's comments may be reinserted into his ass-hole.)

Neil

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 07:44:51 -0500, Michael Horowitz
> wrote:

>I have some boiled chicken (remains of making soup) and wish to serve
>it over rice. Previous posting about gravies and sauces points out I
>can contrast the meat with the sauce; since this is rice and boiled
>chicken pieces, it seems a rich sauce would be more appropriate than
>say a bechamel (sp?)

Chicken left over from soup-making has most of the flavor extracted
already. I quite like it for a light chicken salad, or as the meat
thing in something like vibrantly spiced taco/enchilada filling.
>
>I have some bacon grease (blush) stored away for my Lousiana moments,
>and it seemed to me that if I was thinking rich, the flavor of the
>grease would be a good start. So I started with a roux, brought to a
>rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth

Well, I'm not a haute cuisine master, nor do I play one on TV, but a
combo of washed out chicken, pork fat, and beef broth sounds...a
little odd.

>I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence
>on recipies to a more logical approach to cooking.

If recipes are still white-knuckle, keep practicing with them until
you're comfortable. Gifted and experienced cooks can make wonderful
food 'off the cuff'. The rest of us eventually learn that we don't
have to measure "1/2 cup chopped onion," but the difference between
2Tblsp of sherry and a good slosh is worth paying attention to.

Your bland chicken? Over rice? There are a million recipes(!) that
begin with X cups of diced, cooked chicken. Diced, sauted veg usually
come into the equation somewhere. The remedy isn't to add more pepper
to a sauce, but to have some idea of what you have in mind.

(WardNA) wrote:


>
>Don't try to treat soup stock remains as the basis of serious food. Bland
>bland bland isn't worth dressing up.
>

I didn't want to throw away the chicken; beside this was to be an
experiment where it was terrible I wouldn't feel bad about throwing
the results

>
>I don't like the idea of starting with bacon grease. Butter would have been a
>better idea, in the absence of pan drippings.


I think you're correct; bad aftertaste this morning. Do you think this
would have been a case where a demi glace would have been useful (not
that I've made one, you understand)?

>
>I'll give you a pass on the canned consumé.
>
>You didn't salt it, did you? That would have helped.

Nope; should have
>
>So would a good dribble of sherry.

Ah, yeah; I should have remembered I use couple Teaspoons of Port
when making gravy from bird drippings;
>

>
>Neil

Sheryl Rosen > wrote:

>in article , Michael Horowitz at
wrote on 2/7/04 7:44 AM:
>
>> Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence
>> on recipies to a more logical approach to cooking.
>>
>
>There is a book called "How to Cook Without a Book : Recipes and Techniques
>Every Cook Should Know by Heart" by Pamela Anderson.

>Might be worth your investment.
>
>Good luck.

Done. Isn't ABEBOOKS great? And they didn't saddle me with an extra
quick shipping charge.
Thanks for the suggestion - Mike

Frogleg > wrote:

>On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 07:44:51 -0500, Michael Horowitz
> wrote:
>
>
>
>Well, I'm not a haute cuisine master, nor do I play one on TV, but a
>combo of washed out chicken, pork fat, and beef broth sounds...a
>little odd.
>
>>I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence
>>on recipies to a more logical approach to cooking.
>
>If recipes are still white-knuckle, keep practicing with them until
>you're comfortable. Gifted and experienced cooks can make wonderful
>food 'off the cuff'. The rest of us eventually learn that we don't
>have to measure "1/2 cup chopped onion," but the difference between
>2Tblsp of sherry and a good slosh is worth paying attention to.
>
>Your bland chicken? Over rice? There are a million recipes(!) that
>begin with X cups of diced, cooked chicken. Diced, sauted veg usually
>come into the equation somewhere. The remedy isn't to add more pepper
>to a sauce, but to have some idea of what you have in mind.

Hello FL - I have several sauces folks have previously suggested; I
was trying to mix the theory I knew (deglaze/roux to thicken/add
stock) with what I thought (get a stronger taste using bacon grease
(after all, bacon has a strong taste)); but there was apparently a gap
between theory and practice.

I guess it's partly due to the mental connection I made earlier this
week looking at some SOS and saying "hey, this is a modified bechamel
sauce" - Mike

> wardna assumes the position:
>
>So would a good dribble of sherry.
>
>(Mr. Penmart's comments may be reinserted into his ass-hole.)

Today you are my asshole. hehe


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

Michael Horowitz wrote:
> Frogleg > wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 07:44:51 -0500, Michael Horowitz
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, I'm not a haute cuisine master, nor do I play one on TV, but a
>> combo of washed out chicken, pork fat, and beef broth sounds...a
>> little odd.
>>
>>> I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence
>>> on recipies to a more logical approach to cooking.
>>
>> If recipes are still white-knuckle, keep practicing with them until
>> you're comfortable. Gifted and experienced cooks can make wonderful
>> food 'off the cuff'.

(snip)
>> Your bland chicken? Over rice? There are a million recipes(!) that
>> begin with X cups of diced, cooked chicken. Diced, sauted veg usually
>> come into the equation somewhere. The remedy isn't to add more pepper
>> to a sauce, but to have some idea of what you have in mind.
>
> Hello FL - I have several sauces folks have previously suggested; I
> was trying to mix the theory I knew (deglaze/roux to thicken/add
> stock) with what I thought (get a stronger taste using bacon grease
(snip)

Absolutely nothing wrong with a modified bechamel sauce, either, Mike. My
grandmother, my mother and I all have made variations of what you describe.
We save the bacon grease for biscuits to serve it over, rather than rice,
but rice works and even noodles

After you've made a light roux with butter, S&P and flour and milk and
cooked the sauce to medium thickness, add about 1-1/2 c. of broth or stock.
And a splash of dry white wine. IMHO, herbs are essential, even if it's
nothing more than some good fresh chopped parsley. Fresh marjoram is
excellent with this; rosemary is also good but is a bit strong in flavour
and must be used (IMO) judiciously. I always add a bit of cayenne pepper to
this mix. Add back the cooked chicken and cook the mixture down a bit.
Serve over crumbled biscuits, rice or noodles.

Jill

Nothing wrong with white sauces over chicken. I would have made a roux with
the bacon grease, stirred in plenty of chopped parsley and salt and pepper
then added milk to make a thick pan gravy. A touch of a nice dry sherry
adds a nice flavor as well. It would go splendidly with the chicken and
rice.

Paul


"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
news
> Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence
> on recipies to a more logical approach to cooking.
>
> I have some boiled chicken (remains of making soup) and wish to serve
> it over rice. Previous posting about gravies and sauces points out I
> can contrast the meat with the sauce; since this is rice and boiled
> chicken pieces, it seems a rich sauce would be more appropriate than
> say a bechamel (sp?)
>
> I have some bacon grease (blush) stored away for my Lousiana moments,
> and it seemed to me that if I was thinking rich, the flavor of the
> grease would be a good start. So I started with a roux, brought to a
> rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth (previous thread from
> a reasonable cook: Swanson's lo-sodium broths make a reasonable
> substitute for stock). Stir like mad to disolve the lumps and begin to
> reduce, tasting as I go.
>
> Reduced for about :10 and tasted; added pepper and a pinch of cayenne.
> Stirred- still sort of bland - that's where my imagination abandoned
> me.
>
> Added the chicken chunks to warm and served over rice.
>
> Bland, bland, bland and this morning I have a leftover taste in my
> mouth I attribute to bacon grease.
>
> Would like to hear what I logically did right/wrong here - Thanks,
> Mike

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:19:29 -0500, Michael Horowitz
> wrote:

>Frogleg > wrote:

>>If recipes are still white-knuckle, keep practicing with them until
>>you're comfortable. Gifted and experienced cooks can make wonderful
>>food 'off the cuff'. The rest of us eventually learn that we don't
>>have to measure "1/2 cup chopped onion," but the difference between
>>2Tblsp of sherry and a good slosh is worth paying attention to.

>Hello FL - I have several sauces folks have previously suggested; I
>was trying to mix the theory I knew (deglaze/roux to thicken/add
>stock) with what I thought (get a stronger taste using bacon grease
>(after all, bacon has a strong taste)); but there was apparently a gap
>between theory and practice.

Hey, Mike. I feel your pain/concern. :-) Cooking is, IMHO, an ongoing
learning process. I'd say about 1/3rd of my free-wheeling
'experiments' are really good; 1/3rd are, um, edible; and 1/3rd have
me hunting around for containers to discreetly dispose of the material
in the garbage. Oatmeal instead of barley in the recipe for the ground
beef thing? Edible, I suppose. Not something to look forward to. Bacon
grease? Well, pork side meat goes well with beans or greens. I fry a
couple of slices of bacon in a cast-iron skillet to prepare for
cornbread.

The *theory* -- roux, liquid, Other Stuff -- is sound. But you don't
treat lobster to the same prep as beef stew. And adding a lot of
pepper to a sauce does not a fine dining experience make. For your
post-broth chicken over rice, perhaps a simple curry would be a
flavorful possibility. Oil, not bacon fat. Add veg. Chicken with
sauce over rice doesn't have to be "look out!" flavored either. You
got y'r oriental (ginger and soy), and y'r curry, and y'r cacciatore
and y'r enchilada filling. And a genteel a la cream sauce with a
little parsley on top.

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 07:44:51 -0500, Michael Horowitz
> wrote:

>Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence
>on recipies to a more logical approach to cooking.
>
>I have some boiled chicken (remains of making soup) and wish to serve
>it over rice. Previous posting about gravies and sauces points out I
>can contrast the meat with the sauce; since this is rice and boiled
>chicken pieces, it seems a rich sauce would be more appropriate than
>say a bechamel (sp?)
>
>I have some bacon grease (blush) stored away for my Lousiana moments,
>and it seemed to me that if I was thinking rich, the flavor of the
>grease would be a good start. So I started with a roux, brought to a
>rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth (previous thread from
>a reasonable cook: Swanson's lo-sodium broths make a reasonable
>substitute for stock). Stir like mad to disolve the lumps and begin to
>reduce, tasting as I go.
>
>Reduced for about :10 and tasted; added pepper and a pinch of cayenne.
>Stirred- still sort of bland - that's where my imagination abandoned
>me.
>
>Added the chicken chunks to warm and served over rice.
>
>Bland, bland, bland and this morning I have a leftover taste in my
>mouth I attribute to bacon grease.
>
>Would like to hear what I logically did right/wrong here - Thanks,

I usually start with an onion whatever else is going in. I chop the
onion while the pan is heating and that gives me time to think of what
to do next, since I often haven't thought that far ahead.

Put a bay leaf in for a while, also some sprigs of a savory herb.
Thyme and rosemary are both effective in different ways.

I usually also chop some garlic to put in later on. The later it goes
in the less bland, but don't overdo that side of it.

I taste every once in a while, and if it seems too bland near the end
I will toss in some hot sauce. You can put some in that will add depth
before it is enough to make heat evident.




Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the ass you have to kiss today." --Former mayor Ciancia

Michael Horowitz wrote:
> Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence
> on recipies to a more logical approach to cooking.
>
> I have some boiled chicken (remains of making soup) and wish to serve
> it over rice. Previous posting about gravies and sauces points out I
> can contrast the meat with the sauce; since this is rice and boiled
> chicken pieces, it seems a rich sauce would be more appropriate than
> say a bechamel (sp?)
>
> I have some bacon grease (blush) stored away for my Lousiana moments,
> and it seemed to me that if I was thinking rich, the flavor of the
> grease would be a good start. So I started with a roux, brought to a
> rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth (previous thread from
> a reasonable cook: Swanson's lo-sodium broths make a reasonable
> substitute for stock). Stir like mad to disolve the lumps and begin to
> reduce, tasting as I go.
>
> Reduced for about :10 and tasted; added pepper and a pinch of cayenne.
> Stirred- still sort of bland - that's where my imagination abandoned
> me.
>
> Added the chicken chunks to warm and served over rice.
>
> Bland, bland, bland and this morning I have a leftover taste in my
> mouth I attribute to bacon grease.
>
> Would like to hear what I logically did right/wrong here - Thanks,
> Mike

forget about the sauce. find yourself some spring onions, chop them finely.
find yourself some ginger, grate them finely. heat up some veg oil and throw
the oil over the ginger and spring onions. add salt, add some soy sauce and a
couple drops of pure 100% sesame oil. add a few slices of red pepper if you
feel like it. just dip your chicken in the mixture to go with the rice.

the soy sauce sort of replaces the lost flavour in the chicken.

Michael Horowitz > wrote in message >. ..
> Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence
> on recipies to a more logical approach to cooking.
>
.... stuff deleted about making a dish from scratch....

Mike,
Don't take this the wrong way. I don't think you're ready for this.

There's nothing wrong in following recipies, most good cooks do this
all the time. What you should concentrate on now is learning to make
the same dish over and over until you don't need to follow the recipe.
At that point you'll know what would spice it up the way you want to.

To draw an analogy, like a musician you're learning to improvise. But
you want to improvise within the music that you've already learned.
What you attempted is to play jazz but improvise in ragtime.

So next time look up a recipe that you haven't tried that involves
using up chicken meat. Eventually you'll have learned to make so many
things that you'll open the refrigerator, see the chicken and think
enchilladas.

To my way of thinking, following a recipe is the *most* logical way of
cooking.

Good luck,
Susan B.

In article >, Michael Horowitz
> wrote:

> Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence
> on recipies to a more logical approach to cooking.


> rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth (previous thread from
> a reasonable cook: Swanson's lo-sodium broths make a reasonable


> Bland, bland, bland and this morning I have a leftover taste in my
> mouth I attribute to bacon grease.
>
> Would like to hear what I logically did right/wrong here - Thanks,


Most sauces need considerable salt to taste good. Also, I would make this
dish with some herbs.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 07:44:51 -0500, Michael Horowitz >
wrote:


>I have some boiled chicken (remains of making soup) and wish to serve
>it over rice. Previous posting about gravies and sauces points out I
>can contrast the meat with the sauce; since this is rice and boiled
>chicken pieces, it seems a rich sauce would be more appropriate than
>say a bechamel (sp?)

Nothing wrong with the idea. The chicken is basically tastless at this
point, it has all been extracted by the stock making. So, this means
all, let me repeat, ALL the flavor is going to come from the sauce or
other ingredients in the dish.


>I have some bacon grease (blush) stored away for my Lousiana moments,
>and it seemed to me that if I was thinking rich, the flavor of the
>grease would be a good start. So I started with a roux, brought to a
>rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth (previous thread from
>a reasonable cook: Swanson's lo-sodium broths make a reasonable
>substitute for stock). Stir like mad to disolve the lumps and begin to
>reduce, tasting as I go.

Heating the chicken in some bacon grease would have infused some flavor
back in (actually on) the chicken. Putting it in the roux just diffused
that flavor, made it a background note. You need a sauce with body. A
bechamel, veloute, or tomato derivative. A spicy Creole style sauce, a
peppery veloute, a mornay ( bechamel w/ cheese), a mexican mole.

>
>Reduced for about :10 and tasted; added pepper and a pinch of cayenne.
>Stirred- still sort of bland - that's where my imagination abandoned
>me.

Here is where you made your big mistake - The sauce is the flavor. Bland
sauce = bland ( or worse ) dish. What you made is a demi-glace. A
sauce I would use to complement a meat dish.

>Added the chicken chunks to warm and served over rice.
>
>Bland, bland, bland and this morning I have a leftover taste in my
>mouth I attribute to bacon grease.
>
>Would like to hear what I logically did right/wrong here - Thanks,

Probably, grease is, well, grease.

Michael Horowitz wrote:

>
> So I started with a roux, brought to a
> rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth (previous thread from
> a reasonable cook: Swanson's lo-sodium broths make a reasonable
> substitute for stock). Stir like mad to disolve the lumps and begin to
> reduce, tasting as I go.

I'd have used chicken stock. Or, actually, chicken base. I find that
dark roux doesn't do much for me except taste burnt. Maybe that's just
my tastebuds.


>
> Reduced for about :10 and tasted; added pepper and a pinch of cayenne.
> Stirred- still sort of bland - that's where my imagination abandoned
> me.

Onion, garlic, celery, bell pepper... I think those are the basis for
the louisiana style sauce you were trying for. Next time try chopping
some up and sauteing it before mixing in the roux and hot pepper.
Remember that the roux is going to subdue whatever flavors you add, so
you may need a little bit more than you think for good flavor.



Dawn

Sheryl Rosen > wrote:

>in article , Michael Horowitz at
wrote on 2/7/04 7:44 AM:
>
>> Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence
>> on recipies to a more logical approach to cooking.
>>
>
>There is a book called "How to Cook Without a Book : Recipes and Techniques
>Every Cook Should Know by Heart" by Pamela Anderson.
>
>Here is the link to it from Amazon.com:
>http://tinyurl.com/yvaqg
>
>Might be worth your investment.
>
>Good luck.

Sheryl - book arrived on Friday; I've read the first few chapters,
trying to absorb her overall approach. Tonite I'm trying the Tomato
and Cuke salad and then a supper soup. I practiced while shopping,
trying to go thru her logic in selecting items (but with a written
shopping list, just in case). Got about 85%.
Thanks for the book suggestion - Mike