John Kuthe wrote:
> ...
>
> Faith is nothing more than the acceptance of something as true in the absence of much or any EVIDENCE of that thing's truth!!


Like magnetism was.

> Just WANTING something to be true DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE!!
>
> John Kuthe...

Like your alleged academic superiority.

On 24/11/2015 9:47 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> In article >, wrote:
>> "It seems that a three-in-one god born of a virgin, impregnated by himself
>> who sacrificed himself to himself so that he may spare his own creation
>>from his own wrath. How could anyone not believe that?
>
> At the very least, sin's minimal wages are pain, deceit, treachery, dishonesty,
> vanity, envy, jealousy, oppression and death. If our minds were so capable of
> reasoning past sin, why haven't we done it? If we can track the harmful effects
> of a myriad behaviors, why haven't those behaviors ceased on a mass scale?
> Given our inability to think our way to a sinless upgrade, the world around us
> is strewn with the byproducts of our carelessness. Our environment gets more
> polluted each day, more animals die unnecessarily, people still exploit each
> other, lie to one another, cheat, steal, even kill. Given this kind of world,
> how is any newborn child supposed to feel any hope once they realize the
> shambles of human existence?
> Who (or what) could rebalance these scales and repair this mess? A normal human
> being capable of descending into sin at the glimpse of a thong? A power hungry
> macho man tempted by corruption and wealth? An artist seduced by ephemeral
> celebrity? An intellectual cuccooned in a thicket of dense ideas with seemingly
> innocuous verbiage? A spiritual leader tempted by flesh of all genders? Who
> among us is sinless enough to design this long-awaited upgrade of which
> humanity is supposedly capable? Who among us has the credibility and wisdom to
> teach us all how to be good and kind all the time? More importantly, who among
> us has the power to protect the innocent from senseless violence, racism,
> sexism, economic inequality, disease and geopolitical chess?
> It follows logically that the only being capable of teaching the world to live
> free of sin is one who never has sinned. And, we've already established that
> there is no one among us who meets these criteria. God has punished humanity
> with calamities, floods, plagues, famines and droughts, most foreseen by
> prophets. Too few people changed their ways before getting wiped out.
> So, we need a human being who can speak the languages humans understand in
> order to teach us to live free of sin. Yet, there's no one among us who could
> never descend into sin. Enter: Jesus the Christ of Nazaret: sinless from birth
> to death, a Divine incarnation in human form, capable of healing all the misery
> sin has created, wise enough to reconcile feuding factions and families, gentle
> enough to melt the cruelest hearts, and brave enough to accept all the worst
> tortures the people of his time could invent for a threatening
> philosopher/teacher.
>
>> Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you
>> live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell
>> him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force
>>from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was
>> convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."
>> P.Z. Myers
>
> If there were an alternate sinless world in which innocent people were never
> made to suffer, I'd sure like a shot at inhabiting it. If it takes symbolic
> communion with a "cosmic Jewish zombie," that's better than rotting in a hole
> or scattering burnt ashes everywhere. Bring on that "cosmic Jewish zombie"!
> I've got nothing to lose. The deepest thinkers could not guarantee that I would
> never choose sin. The most asdvanced medicines could not stave off death
> forever. The wisest laws couldn't protect me against evil.
> So there I am, a potential victim of all sorts of suffering, theoretically
> capable of inflicting even worse suffering on others because of my sinful
> nature, certain to face death at some point, perhaps from natural causes,
> perhaps from random violence. And some "cosmic Jewish zombie" provides me even
> a shred of hope of an alternative to that. Sign me up!
>
Typical theological blather.
Graham

--
Atheism and Religion are but two sides of the same coin;
one uses its head, while the other relies on tales.

graham wrote:
> On 24/11/2015 9:47 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>> In article >, wrote:
>>> "It seems that a three-in-one god born of a virgin, impregnated by
>>> himself
>>> who sacrificed himself to himself so that he may spare his own creation
>>> from his own wrath. How could anyone not believe that?
>>
>> At the very least, sin's minimal wages are pain, deceit, treachery,
>> dishonesty,
>> vanity, envy, jealousy, oppression and death. If our minds were so
>> capable of
>> reasoning past sin, why haven't we done it? If we can track the
>> harmful effects
>> of a myriad behaviors, why haven't those behaviors ceased on a mass
>> scale?
>> Given our inability to think our way to a sinless upgrade, the world
>> around us
>> is strewn with the byproducts of our carelessness. Our environment
>> gets more
>> polluted each day, more animals die unnecessarily, people still
>> exploit each
>> other, lie to one another, cheat, steal, even kill. Given this kind of
>> world,
>> how is any newborn child supposed to feel any hope once they realize the
>> shambles of human existence?
>> Who (or what) could rebalance these scales and repair this mess? A
>> normal human
>> being capable of descending into sin at the glimpse of a thong? A
>> power hungry
>> macho man tempted by corruption and wealth? An artist seduced by
>> ephemeral
>> celebrity? An intellectual cuccooned in a thicket of dense ideas with
>> seemingly
>> innocuous verbiage? A spiritual leader tempted by flesh of all
>> genders? Who
>> among us is sinless enough to design this long-awaited upgrade of which
>> humanity is supposedly capable? Who among us has the credibility and
>> wisdom to
>> teach us all how to be good and kind all the time? More importantly,
>> who among
>> us has the power to protect the innocent from senseless violence, racism,
>> sexism, economic inequality, disease and geopolitical chess?
>> It follows logically that the only being capable of teaching the world
>> to live
>> free of sin is one who never has sinned. And, we've already
>> established that
>> there is no one among us who meets these criteria. God has punished
>> humanity
>> with calamities, floods, plagues, famines and droughts, most foreseen by
>> prophets. Too few people changed their ways before getting wiped out.
>> So, we need a human being who can speak the languages humans
>> understand in
>> order to teach us to live free of sin. Yet, there's no one among us
>> who could
>> never descend into sin. Enter: Jesus the Christ of Nazaret: sinless
>> from birth
>> to death, a Divine incarnation in human form, capable of healing all
>> the misery
>> sin has created, wise enough to reconcile feuding factions and
>> families, gentle
>> enough to melt the cruelest hearts, and brave enough to accept all the
>> worst
>> tortures the people of his time could invent for a threatening
>> philosopher/teacher.
>>
>>> Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you
>>> live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell
>>> him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force
>>> from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was
>>> convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."
>>> P.Z. Myers
>>
>> If there were an alternate sinless world in which innocent people were
>> never
>> made to suffer, I'd sure like a shot at inhabiting it. If it takes
>> symbolic
>> communion with a "cosmic Jewish zombie," that's better than rotting in
>> a hole
>> or scattering burnt ashes everywhere. Bring on that "cosmic Jewish
>> zombie"!
>> I've got nothing to lose. The deepest thinkers could not guarantee
>> that I would
>> never choose sin. The most asdvanced medicines could not stave off death
>> forever. The wisest laws couldn't protect me against evil.
>> So there I am, a potential victim of all sorts of suffering,
>> theoretically
>> capable of inflicting even worse suffering on others because of my sinful
>> nature, certain to face death at some point, perhaps from natural causes,
>> perhaps from random violence. And some "cosmic Jewish zombie" provides
>> me even
>> a shred of hope of an alternative to that. Sign me up!
>>
> Typical theological blather.
> Graham
>

Predictable heathen canuckleheaded faith bigotry.

You are a total asshole.

On 11/24/2015 2:03 PM, Xeno wrote:
> On 25/11/2015 2:50 AM, graham wrote:
>> On 24/11/2015 8:41 AM, wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:55:14 -0500, Gary > wrote:
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Back on subject, I truly believe 'do as you would be done by' could
>>>>> solve the worlds problems just now - but it ain't gonna happen
>>>>
>>>> That's the way I live my life. It's good to be a good person in all
>>>> ways. I've always treated people right and I can sleep at night
>>>> without guilt.
>>>>
>>>> The religious crowd will tell you that's not good enough though.
>>>>
>>>> My Mom has been trying to "save" me for years, bless her soul. heheh
>>>> Just today in the mail she sent me more bible quotes, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Here's one that she underlined:
>>>>
>>>> "We are all born with a corrupt nature inherited from Adam (5:12), and
>>>> neither good works nor moral values can overcome it. God alone can
>>>> remedy the situation..."
>>>> Basically, only if you fall on your face and worship HE will you be
>>>> saved.
>>>>
>>>> That's old ignorant beliefs, imo, and not for me. Sorry.
>>>
>>> I often look at newborns and wonder that religions endow them with sin
>>> before they even get started. Don't forget your mother grew up in an
>>> era before television, FB, internet etc so it was quite easy for the
>>> local minister to scare them all into doing what he bid them do. I
>>> hope you pay no attention and just say 'Yes mother'
>>>
>> As Dawkins points out, there are NO Catholic children, No protestant
>> children, NO Muslim children etc.
>> They are children born to those parents who will indoctrinate them.
>> Graham
>
> Amen to that!
>
"My mental health professional has directed me to apologize to this
group at large and to Marty and Steven in specific for acting out
here. A change in my medications is being made to address a disorder I
have been experiencing this summer. I will be monitored, but I am no
longer allowed to engage in certain activities I previously have
enjoyed as they exacerbate my condition. I apologize for being
disruptive, in a better state of mind this was generally not an issue
for me."

Casa Boner, Fri, 20 Sep 2013 18:37:53 -0600
Message-ID: >
--
Barbara J Llorente 71 Cerritos Ave San Francisco, CA 94127.
Age 65 (Born 1950) (415) 239-7248. Background Check - Available. Record

ID: 47846596.

On 11/24/2015 9:21 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> article >, wrote:
>> Just today in the mail she sent me more bible quotes, etc.
>> Here's one that she underlined:
>> "We are all born with a corrupt nature inherited from Adam (5:12), and
>> neither good works nor moral values can overcome it. God alone can
>> remedy the situation..."
>> Basically, only if you fall on your face and worship HE will you be
>> saved.
>> That's old ignorant beliefs, imo, and not for me. Sorry.
>
> Suppose you were a bank robber, having gotten away with hundreds of robberies
> before getting caught. Then, you are convincted in a trial and serve a twenty-
> year sentence. During that time, you presumably reflect, repent and reform your
> morals, such that you expect not to rob again upon your release. But then, you
> get out of prison, can't find employment because of your criminal record and
> become desperate enough to rob some convenience stores.
> In that scenario, the criminal justice system attempted to rehabilitate you.
> You also put in genuine effort. And yet, your "nature" remains criminal. Who or
> what could fix that? You tried, the best psychotherapists money could buy
> tried, the best lawyers defended you, the strictest parole committee pronounced
> you ready for society. And yet, your nature compels you to steal again. How
> would you fix that?
>
"My mental health professional has directed me to apologize to this
group at large and to Marty and Steven in specific for acting out
here. A change in my medications is being made to address a disorder I
have been experiencing this summer. I will be monitored, but I am no
longer allowed to engage in certain activities I previously have
enjoyed as they exacerbate my condition. I apologize for being
disruptive, in a better state of mind this was generally not an issue
for me."

Casa Boner, Fri, 20 Sep 2013 18:37:53 -0600
Message-ID: >
--
Barbara J Llorente 71 Cerritos Ave San Francisco, CA 94127.
Age 65 (Born 1950) (415) 239-7248. Background Check - Available. Record

ID: 47846596.

On 11/24/2015 9:47 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> In article >, wrote:
>> "It seems that a three-in-one god born of a virgin, impregnated by himself
>> who sacrificed himself to himself so that he may spare his own creation
>>from his own wrath. How could anyone not believe that?
>
> At the very least, sin's minimal wages are pain, deceit, treachery, dishonesty,
> vanity, envy, jealousy, oppression and death. If our minds were so capable of
> reasoning past sin, why haven't we done it? If we can track the harmful effects
> of a myriad behaviors, why haven't those behaviors ceased on a mass scale?
> Given our inability to think our way to a sinless upgrade, the world around us
> is strewn with the byproducts of our carelessness. Our environment gets more
> polluted each day, more animals die unnecessarily, people still exploit each
> other, lie to one another, cheat, steal, even kill. Given this kind of world,
> how is any newborn child supposed to feel any hope once they realize the
> shambles of human existence?
> Who (or what) could rebalance these scales and repair this mess? A normal human
> being capable of descending into sin at the glimpse of a thong? A power hungry
> macho man tempted by corruption and wealth? An artist seduced by ephemeral
> celebrity? An intellectual cuccooned in a thicket of dense ideas with seemingly
> innocuous verbiage? A spiritual leader tempted by flesh of all genders? Who
> among us is sinless enough to design this long-awaited upgrade of which
> humanity is supposedly capable? Who among us has the credibility and wisdom to
> teach us all how to be good and kind all the time? More importantly, who among
> us has the power to protect the innocent from senseless violence, racism,
> sexism, economic inequality, disease and geopolitical chess?
> It follows logically that the only being capable of teaching the world to live
> free of sin is one who never has sinned. And, we've already established that
> there is no one among us who meets these criteria. God has punished humanity
> with calamities, floods, plagues, famines and droughts, most foreseen by
> prophets. Too few people changed their ways before getting wiped out.
> So, we need a human being who can speak the languages humans understand in
> order to teach us to live free of sin. Yet, there's no one among us who could
> never descend into sin. Enter: Jesus the Christ of Nazaret: sinless from birth
> to death, a Divine incarnation in human form, capable of healing all the misery
> sin has created, wise enough to reconcile feuding factions and families, gentle
> enough to melt the cruelest hearts, and brave enough to accept all the worst
> tortures the people of his time could invent for a threatening
> philosopher/teacher.
>
>> Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you
>> live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell
>> him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force
>>from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was
>> convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."
>> P.Z. Myers
>
> If there were an alternate sinless world in which innocent people were never
> made to suffer, I'd sure like a shot at inhabiting it. If it takes symbolic
> communion with a "cosmic Jewish zombie," that's better than rotting in a hole
> or scattering burnt ashes everywhere. Bring on that "cosmic Jewish zombie"!
> I've got nothing to lose. The deepest thinkers could not guarantee that I would
> never choose sin. The most asdvanced medicines could not stave off death
> forever. The wisest laws couldn't protect me against evil.
> So there I am, a potential victim of all sorts of suffering, theoretically
> capable of inflicting even worse suffering on others because of my sinful
> nature, certain to face death at some point, perhaps from natural causes,
> perhaps from random violence. And some "cosmic Jewish zombie" provides me even
> a shred of hope of an alternative to that. Sign me up!
>
"My mental health professional has directed me to apologize to this
group at large and to Marty and Steven in specific for acting out
here. A change in my medications is being made to address a disorder I
have been experiencing this summer. I will be monitored, but I am no
longer allowed to engage in certain activities I previously have
enjoyed as they exacerbate my condition. I apologize for being
disruptive, in a better state of mind this was generally not an issue
for me."

Casa Boner, Fri, 20 Sep 2013 18:37:53 -0600
Message-ID: >
--
Barbara J Llorente 71 Cerritos Ave San Francisco, CA 94127.
Age 65 (Born 1950) (415) 239-7248. Background Check - Available. Record

ID: 47846596.

On 11/24/2015 9:51 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> In article >, wrote:
>> Then there is the concept of transubstantiation, the process by which a
>> priests says some mumbo jumbo and wine and bread becomes Christ's body
>> and blood. I was amazed to discover that a lot of Catholics, having
>> been in indoctrinated into church's belief system did not realize that
>> very important part of their faith. Other Christian denominations that
>> have communion services view it as symbolic of Christ's body and blood
>> while Catholicism thinks it really is.
>
> Whether or not that bread and wine are Christ's body and blood is not even the
> point. The point is that communion with God and believers requires a state of
> mind very different from our usual sinful state. Whatever gets us into that
> superior mental state can't be any worse than sin, which we naturally seem to
> relish anyway. Wether it's a priest's mumbo jumbo, a gospel choir's explosive
> harmonies or the trance from interlocking polyphonic drumming, whatever gets us
> to think about purity, grace, kindness and beauty can't be any worse than the
> things that make us think of sin.
>
"My mental health professional has directed me to apologize to this
group at large and to Marty and Steven in specific for acting out
here. A change in my medications is being made to address a disorder I
have been experiencing this summer. I will be monitored, but I am no
longer allowed to engage in certain activities I previously have
enjoyed as they exacerbate my condition. I apologize for being
disruptive, in a better state of mind this was generally not an issue
for me."

Casa Boner, Fri, 20 Sep 2013 18:37:53 -0600
Message-ID: >
--
Barbara J Llorente 71 Cerritos Ave San Francisco, CA 94127.
Age 65 (Born 1950) (415) 239-7248. Background Check - Available. Record

ID: 47846596.

On 11/25/2015 8:06 AM, John Kuthe wrote:
> ...
>
> Faith is nothing more than the acceptance of something as true in the absence of much or any EVIDENCE of that thing's truth!!
>
> Just WANTING something to be true DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE!!
>
> John Kuthe...
>
"My mental health professional has directed me to apologize to this
group at large and to Marty and Steven in specific for acting out
here. A change in my medications is being made to address a disorder I
have been experiencing this summer. I will be monitored, but I am no
longer allowed to engage in certain activities I previously have
enjoyed as they exacerbate my condition. I apologize for being
disruptive, in a better state of mind this was generally not an issue
for me."

Casa Boner, Fri, 20 Sep 2013 18:37:53 -0600
Message-ID: >
--
Barbara J Llorente 71 Cerritos Ave San Francisco, CA 94127.
Age 65 (Born 1950) (415) 239-7248. Background Check - Available. Record

ID: 47846596.

On 11/25/2015 12:00 PM, Hidalgo wrote:
"My mental health professional has directed me to apologize to this
group at large and to Marty and Steven in specific for acting out
here. A change in my medications is being made to address a disorder I
have been experiencing this summer. I will be monitored, but I am no
longer allowed to engage in certain activities I previously have
enjoyed as they exacerbate my condition. I apologize for being
disruptive, in a better state of mind this was generally not an issue
for me."

Casa Boner, Fri, 20 Sep 2013 18:37:53 -0600
Message-ID: >
--
Barbara J Llorente 71 Cerritos Ave San Francisco, CA 94127.
Age 65 (Born 1950) (415) 239-7248. Background Check - Available. Record

ID: 47846596.

On 11/24/2015 2:20 PM, wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 08:03:45 +1100, Xeno >
> wrote:
>
>> On 25/11/2015 2:50 AM, graham wrote:
>>> On 24/11/2015 8:41 AM, wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:55:14 -0500, Gary > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Back on subject, I truly believe 'do as you would be done by' could
>>>>>> solve the worlds problems just now - but it ain't gonna happen
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the way I live my life. It's good to be a good person in all
>>>>> ways. I've always treated people right and I can sleep at night
>>>>> without guilt.
>>>>>
>>>>> The religious crowd will tell you that's not good enough though.
>>>>>
>>>>> My Mom has been trying to "save" me for years, bless her soul. heheh
>>>>> Just today in the mail she sent me more bible quotes, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's one that she underlined:
>>>>>
>>>>> "We are all born with a corrupt nature inherited from Adam (5:12), and
>>>>> neither good works nor moral values can overcome it. God alone can
>>>>> remedy the situation..."
>>>>> Basically, only if you fall on your face and worship HE will you be
>>>>> saved.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's old ignorant beliefs, imo, and not for me. Sorry.
>>>>
>>>> I often look at newborns and wonder that religions endow them with sin
>>>> before they even get started. Don't forget your mother grew up in an
>>>> era before television, FB, internet etc so it was quite easy for the
>>>> local minister to scare them all into doing what he bid them do. I
>>>> hope you pay no attention and just say 'Yes mother'
>>>>
>>> As Dawkins points out, there are NO Catholic children, No protestant
>>> children, NO Muslim children etc.
>>> They are children born to those parents who will indoctrinate them.
>>> Graham
>>
>> Amen to that!
>
> So very true
>
"My mental health professional has directed me to apologize to this
group at large and to Marty and Steven in specific for acting out
here. A change in my medications is being made to address a disorder I
have been experiencing this summer. I will be monitored, but I am no
longer allowed to engage in certain activities I previously have
enjoyed as they exacerbate my condition. I apologize for being
disruptive, in a better state of mind this was generally not an issue
for me."

Casa Boner, Fri, 20 Sep 2013 18:37:53 -0600
Message-ID: >
--
Barbara J Llorente 71 Cerritos Ave San Francisco, CA 94127.
Age 65 (Born 1950) (415) 239-7248. Background Check - Available. Record

ID: 47846596.

On 11/24/2015 3:13 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2015-11-24 11:29 AM, graham wrote:
>
>> "It seems that a three-in-one god born of a virgin, impregnated by
>> himself
>> who sacrificed himself to himself so that he may spare his own creation
>> from his own wrath. How could anyone not believe that?
>> Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you
>> live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell
>> him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force
>> from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was
>> convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."
>>
> Then there is the concept of transubstantiation, the process by which a
> priests says some mumbo jumbo and wine and bread becomes Christ's body
> and blood. I was amazed to discover that a lot of Catholics, having
> been in indoctrinated into church's belief system did not realize that
> very important part of their faith. Other Christian denominations that
> have communion services view it as symbolic of Christ's body and blood
> while Catholicism thinks it really is.
>
"My mental health professional has directed me to apologize to this
group at large and to Marty and Steven in specific for acting out
here. A change in my medications is being made to address a disorder I
have been experiencing this summer. I will be monitored, but I am no
longer allowed to engage in certain activities I previously have
enjoyed as they exacerbate my condition. I apologize for being
disruptive, in a better state of mind this was generally not an issue
for me."

Casa Boner, Fri, 20 Sep 2013 18:37:53 -0600
Message-ID: >
--
Barbara J Llorente 71 Cerritos Ave San Francisco, CA 94127.
Age 65 (Born 1950) (415) 239-7248. Background Check - Available. Record

ID: 47846596.

In article >,
wrote:
>Faith is nothing more than the acceptance of something as true in the absence
of much or any EVIDENCE of that thing's truth!!

On the contrary, people of faith believe that there is near constant evidence
of our faith's fruits. Why would we believe in something that neither came
through nor came true?

>Just WANTING something to be true DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE!!

You make it sound as though faith is a picnic celebrated by people wanting
bullshit to be true. Just two weeks ago, more than a hundred young Parisians
lost their lives through senseless terrorist violence. Do we "want" to believe
that there was some incomprehensible Divine justice in those deaths, that those
people died to wake us up to something? Of course, we want to believe that they
did not die in vain, the consequences of ruthless evil gone awry. It's not
comfortable to try and explain that mysterious Divine justice to ourselves and
others. Faith is no walk in the park.
Orlando

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:43:39 -0500, Orlando Enrique Fiol
> wrote:

>In article >,
wrote:
>>Faith is nothing more than the acceptance of something as true in the absence
>of much or any EVIDENCE of that thing's truth!!
>
>On the contrary, people of faith believe that there is near constant evidence
>of our faith's fruits. Why would we believe in something that neither came
>through nor came true?
>
>>Just WANTING something to be true DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE!!
>
>You make it sound as though faith is a picnic celebrated by people wanting
>bullshit to be true. Just two weeks ago, more than a hundred young Parisians
>lost their lives through senseless terrorist violence. Do we "want" to believe
>that there was some incomprehensible Divine justice in those deaths, that those
>people died to wake us up to something? Of course, we want to believe that they
>did not die in vain, the consequences of ruthless evil gone awry. It's not
>comfortable to try and explain that mysterious Divine justice to ourselves and
>others. Faith is no walk in the park.
>Orlando

What on earth are you two nattering about now? This is the perfect
example of why groups should be moderated.

--
Barbara J Llorente 71 Cerritos Ave San Francisco, CA 94127.

Cheryl wrote:
>
> My sister used to tell me, no ORDER me, to tell her that I turn over my
> life to the one true savior Jesus Christ and if I didn't I was going to
> hell. I'm like, well for 1 I don't say something just because someone
> tells me too, and 2 I'm not sure that what I'm doing with my life is
> leading me to hell anyways. She'd get so upset saying she feared for my
> soul that one day I actually had to give in and tell her what she wanted
> to hear just to calm her down. Wow.

I'm thinking I should do the same thing with my mom...just to give her
piece of mind. At least once a year, she goes on this crusade to try
saving my soul.