Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from Yiddish
and therefore has no standard spelling?

Bob

On 2013-06-01, zxcvbob > wrote:
> Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from Yiddish
> and therefore has no standard spelling?

Who cares!? Whatta stupenagel.

nb

On 01/06/2013 2:51 PM, zxcvbob wrote:
> Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from Yiddish
> and therefore has no standard spelling?
>
>


I agree. That just ain't right. When I checked I saw that there were
variations of the English<?> spelling and that there are German and
English words for the same thing.... Gnodel and noodle.
I do a lot of crosswords and am finding increasing numbers of
non-English words in them. Nothing against Yiddish or any other
language, but word games and spelling bees should stick to one language.

On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 16:32:28 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> On 01/06/2013 2:51 PM, zxcvbob wrote:
> > Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from Yiddish
> > and therefore has no standard spelling?
> >
> >
>
>
> I agree. That just ain't right. When I checked I saw that there were
> variations of the English<?> spelling and that there are German and
> English words for the same thing.... Gnodel and noodle.
> I do a lot of crosswords and am finding increasing numbers of
> non-English words in them. Nothing against Yiddish or any other
> language, but word games and spelling bees should stick to one language.

I guess they figure all bets are off when people resort to Google
anyway.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 6/1/2013 2:32 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 01/06/2013 2:51 PM, zxcvbob wrote:
>> Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from Yiddish
>> and therefore has no standard spelling?
>>
>>
>
>
> I agree. That just ain't right. When I checked I saw that there were
> variations of the English<?> spelling and that there are German and
> English words for the same thing.... Gnodel and noodle.
> I do a lot of crosswords and am finding increasing numbers of
> non-English words in them. Nothing against Yiddish or any other
> language, but word games and spelling bees should stick to one language.
>


I've been thinking that when I've seen the past few years' Nat'l Bee
words. I've finally realized that because these kids are so good (and
so practiced and well-trained), the strange words are there to weed out
kids or the Bee would be six months-long.

gloria p

On 01/06/2013 7:32 PM, gloria p wrote:

>>
>> I agree. That just ain't right. When I checked I saw that there were
>> variations of the English<?> spelling and that there are German and
>> English words for the same thing.... Gnodel and noodle.
>> I do a lot of crosswords and am finding increasing numbers of
>> non-English words in them. Nothing against Yiddish or any other
>> language, but word games and spelling bees should stick to one language.
>>
>
>
> I've been thinking that when I've seen the past few years' Nat'l Bee
> words. I've finally realized that because these kids are so good (and
> so practiced and well-trained), the strange words are there to weed out
> kids or the Bee would be six months-long.
>
>

That may be, but the fact remains that a spelling contest should stick
to one language.

But what the heck... Americans have their own language. They don't know
how to spell colour or neighbour and they don't even know the name of
the last letter in the English alphabet. ;-)

On Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:34:36 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 01/06/2013 7:32 PM, gloria p wrote:
>
>
>
> >>
>
> >> I agree. That just ain't right. When I checked I saw that there were
>
> >> variations of the English<?> spelling and that there are German and
>
> >> English words for the same thing.... Gnodel and noodle.
>
> >> I do a lot of crosswords and am finding increasing numbers of
>
> >> non-English words in them. Nothing against Yiddish or any other
>
> >> language, but word games and spelling bees should stick to one language.
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I've been thinking that when I've seen the past few years' Nat'l Bee
>
> > words. I've finally realized that because these kids are so good (and
>
> > so practiced and well-trained), the strange words are there to weed out
>
> > kids or the Bee would be six months-long.
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> That may be, but the fact remains that a spelling contest should stick
>
> to one language.
>
>
>
> But what the heck... Americans have their own language. They don't know
>
> how to spell colour or neighbour and they don't even know the name of
>
> the last letter in the English alphabet. ;-)

And if your parents are both American and you are born Canadian then
that brings even more problems. It was easier to just use the Canadian
spelling than fight the system and use what your parents taught you
as being correct. I just use whatever fits the occasion.

On 01/06/2013 8:21 PM, Roy wrote:

>> But what the heck... Americans have their own language. They don't know
>>
>> how to spell colour or neighbour and they don't even know the name of
>>
>> the last letter in the English alphabet. ;-)
>
> And if your parents are both American and you are born Canadian then
> that brings even more problems. It was easier to just use the Canadian
> spelling than fight the system and use what your parents taught you
> as being correct. I just use whatever fits the occasion.
>


Friends of mine moved to Texas back in the 70s when their youngest son
was still in elementary school and he kept getting chastised for saying
zed.

Roy > wrote in
:

> And if your parents are both American and you are born
> Canadian then that brings even more problems. It was easier to
> just use the Canadian spelling than fight the system and use
> what your parents taught you as being correct. I just use
> whatever fits the occasion.

Inglich canajuns r frii 2 spel ez thei wil an 2 luk laik fules
doowing it.

Back in 1905, a debate between the Speaker of the House and the
King's Printer settled the matter of British vs. US spelling for
parliamentary documents. The spelling that would be used is the
British spelling and to this day that ruling stands for
Parliamentary documents.

QED

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

On 6/1/2013 7:34 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> But what the heck... Americans have their own language. They don't know
> how to spell colour or neighbour and they don't even know the name of
> the last letter in the English alphabet. ;-)
>
Zed? LOL

Jill

On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 19:34:36 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:
> >
>
> That may be, but the fact remains that a spelling contest should stick
> to one language.
>
> But what the heck... Americans have their own language. They don't know
> how to spell colour or neighbour and they don't even know the name of
> the last letter in the English alphabet. ;-)

If you're talking about zed - as the line in A New Leaf (Walter
Matthau & Elaine May) goes: “You have managed to keep traditions alive
that were dead before you were born.”

Others say it's not zee or zed, it's "zey".

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Saturday, June 1, 2013 8:37:20 PM UTC-4, sf wrote:
>
> If you're talking about zed - as the line in A New Leaf (Walter
>
> Matthau & Elaine May) goes: �You have managed to keep traditions alive
>
> that were dead before you were born.�

Did you catch that the other night? I remembered the nightgown scene, but had forgotten the peppy dialogue, and Matthau, Man of a Thousand Expressions. A riot and too bad not aired much. I'd really like to know what he was saying about the fern----somethingorother grahami. What IS that first word?

I worked in the pit once for a My Fair Lady production, and the director had to explain to the cast that line in the song, "A to Zed"
("Why Can't the English....")

Dave Smith > wrote in newsyvqt.142715
:

> hey don't know
> how to spell colour or neighbour

But they think they do. Webster's defines "neighbour" as a British
variant of American spelling, which is a patently absurd statement
verging on the heavily delusional.

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 19:40:58 -0500, Michel Boucher
> wrote:

> Dave Smith > wrote in newsyvqt.142715
> :
>
> > hey don't know
> > how to spell colour or neighbour
>
> But they think they do. Webster's defines "neighbour" as a British
> variant of American spelling, which is a patently absurd statement
> verging on the heavily delusional.

and yet it's true.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Jun 1, 4:34*pm, Dave Smith > wrote:
> On 01/06/2013 7:32 PM, gloria p wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> I agree. *That just ain't right. When I checked I saw that there were
> >> variations of the English<?> spelling and that there are German and
> >> English words for the same thing.... Gnodel and noodle.
> >> * I do a lot of crosswords and am finding increasing numbers of
> >> non-English words in them. Nothing against Yiddish or any other
> >> language, but word games and spelling bees should stick to one language.
>
> > I've been thinking that when I've seen the past few years' Nat'l Bee
> > words. *I've finally realized that because these kids are so good (and
> > so practiced and well-trained), the strange words are there to weed out
> > kids or the Bee would be six months-long.
>
> That may be, but the fact remains that a spelling contest should stick
> to one language.
>
> But what the heck... Americans have their own language. They don't know
> how to spell colour or neighbour and they don't even know the name of
> the last letter in the English alphabet. *;-)

Sure, Canadians no doubt pronounce colour and neighbour to rhyme with
hour and flour and scour, and dour and pour, and sour, and tour, and
so on.

On Sat, 1 Jun 2013 19:35:01 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
> wrote:

> On Jun 1, 4:34*pm, Dave Smith > wrote:
> >
> >
> > That may be, but the fact remains that a spelling contest should stick
> > to one language.
> >
> > But what the heck... Americans have their own language. They don't know
> > how to spell colour or neighbour and they don't even know the name of
> > the last letter in the English alphabet. *;-)
>
> Sure, Canadians no doubt pronounce colour and neighbour to rhyme with
> hour and flour and scour, and dour and pour, and sour, and tour, and
> so on.

LOL

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Saturday, June 1, 2013 9:35:01 PM UTC-5, spamtrap1888 wrote:
>
>
> Sure, Canadians no doubt pronounce colour and neighbour to rhyme with
>
> hour and flour and scour, and dour and pour, and sour, and tour, and
>
> so on.

"Tour"??? Were you just seeing if anyone would notice?

--Bryan

On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 19:34:36 -0400, in rec.food.cooking, Dave Smith
wrote:

>On 01/06/2013 7:32 PM, gloria p wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I agree. That just ain't right. When I checked I saw that there were
>>> variations of the English<?> spelling and that there are German and
>>> English words for the same thing.... Gnodel and noodle.
>>> I do a lot of crosswords and am finding increasing numbers of
>>> non-English words in them. Nothing against Yiddish or any other
>>> language, but word games and spelling bees should stick to one language.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I've been thinking that when I've seen the past few years' Nat'l Bee
>> words. I've finally realized that because these kids are so good (and
>> so practiced and well-trained), the strange words are there to weed out
>> kids or the Bee would be six months-long.
>>
>>
>
>That may be, but the fact remains that a spelling contest should stick
>to one language.
>
>But what the heck... Americans have their own language. They don't know
>how to spell colour or neighbour and they don't even know the name of
>the last letter in the English alphabet. ;-)

They don't spell color or neighbor the French way, right. They spell
them the way their ancestors who came over from England spelled them
before they were Frenchified (if there's such a word).
Doug

On Saturday, June 1, 2013 7:34:36 PM UTC-4, Dave Smith wrote:
>
>
>
>
> But what the heck... Americans have their own language. They don't know
>
> how to spell colour or neighbour and they don't even know the name of
>
> the last letter in the English alphabet. ;-)

BUT..... we CAN say 'out' - haw haw.

All kidding aside, do you say bout, clout etc to rhyme with your 'out'?

On 02/06/2013 1:26 PM, Kalmia wrote:
> On Saturday, June 1, 2013 7:34:36 PM UTC-4, Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But what the heck... Americans have their own language. They don't know
>>
>> how to spell colour or neighbour and they don't even know the name of
>>
>> the last letter in the English alphabet. ;-)
>
> BUT..... we CAN say 'out' - haw haw.
>
> All kidding aside, do you say bout, clout etc to rhyme with your 'out'?
>


Yes. Out rhymes with clout, pout, tout. Don't know where that oot
stereotype comes from, though there were a lot of Scots here who had a
bit of a dialect. Route OTOH.... rhymes with root.

zxcvbob wrote:
> Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from Yiddish
> and therefore has no standard spelling?
>
> Bob

You are absolutely correct.

IMHO, any transliterated work like that ought not to be used at all in
an English spelling bee, let alone as the final word!

Yiddish is essentially German written with the Hebrew alphabet, plus a
smattering of words from Hebrew and other sources. There is simply _no_
way to come to a perfect spelling of the word in English, and person who
chose it simply because they found it in a dictionary ought to be
reprimanded and removed. Any Yiddish word written in the Roman alphabet
is, by definitioin, an approximation - transcription, transliteration,
or what have you.

-S-

On Sat, 1 Jun 2013 17:18:03 -0400, "Steve Freides" >
wrote:

> Any Yiddish word written in the Roman alphabet
> is, by definitioin, an approximation - transcription, transliteration,
> or what have you.

Have you found out if more than one spelling variation was acceptable?

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

sf wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jun 2013 17:18:03 -0400, "Steve Freides" >
> wrote:
>
>> Any Yiddish word written in the Roman alphabet
>> is, by definitioin, an approximation - transcription,
>> transliteration, or what have you.
>
> Have you found out if more than one spelling variation was acceptable?

I have not, but the process of rendering a Yiddish word in the Roman
alphabet really cannot rightly be limited to a single spelling. And we
haven't even discussed dialects of Yiddish. I know at least two main
dialects exist, or at least existed, but that's about the extent of my
knowledge.

FWIW, my paternal grandparents spoke Yiddish at home and my father,
although he almost never spoke it, understood it completely. Like many
children in a similar situation, when his parents (my grandparents)
spoke to him in Yiddish, he answered in English. Somehow, even a little
bit of it made it through to me - there are a few words, particularly
the names of some kitchen items, that my father never bothered to call
anything except their Yiddish names. Here's one:

http://translate.google.com/#en/yi/grater

It's pronounced "ribaizn" and it's still what I call a grater to this
day. Note that there is no vowel between the "z" and "n" sounds at the
end of the word, so it might be rendered at ribaizen or reebaizn or any
of several other variations.

OK, Google spells it like this: Rybyyazn - <sigh> - go figure ...


-S=

On Sat, 1 Jun 2013 20:20:19 -0400, "Steve Freides" >
wrote:

>sf wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Jun 2013 17:18:03 -0400, "Steve Freides" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Any Yiddish word written in the Roman alphabet
>>> is, by definitioin, an approximation - transcription,
>>> transliteration, or what have you.
>>
>> Have you found out if more than one spelling variation was acceptable?
>
>I have not, but the process of rendering a Yiddish word in the Roman
>alphabet really cannot rightly be limited to a single spelling. And we
>haven't even discussed dialects of Yiddish. I know at least two main
>dialects exist, or at least existed, but that's about the extent of my
>knowledge.
>
>FWIW, my paternal grandparents spoke Yiddish at home and my father,
>although he almost never spoke it, understood it completely. Like many
>children in a similar situation, when his parents (my grandparents)
>spoke to him in Yiddish, he answered in English. Somehow, even a little
>bit of it made it through to me - there are a few words, particularly
>the names of some kitchen items, that my father never bothered to call
>anything except their Yiddish names. Here's one:
>
>http://translate.google.com/#en/yi/grater
>
>It's pronounced "ribaizn" and it's still what I call a grater to this
>day. Note that there is no vowel between the "z" and "n" sounds at the
>end of the word, so it might be rendered at ribaizen or reebaizn or any
>of several other variations.
>
>OK, Google spells it like this: Rybyyazn - <sigh> - go figure ...

More accurately; "go know".

On Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:18:03 PM UTC-4, Steve Freides wrote:
>
>
>
> Yiddish is essentially German written with the Hebrew alphabet, plus a
>
> smattering of words from Hebrew and other sources. There is simply _no_
>
> way to come to a perfect spelling of the word in English,

Agree. I am sure Yiddish scholars have debated spelling ad infinitum.

Like the time I tried to get the 'spelling' of 'keye-bosh'. I'd heard it enough times, but had never seen it in print. I used to hate when I had some grand idea and my mother would say "I'll put the keye-bosh on YOU". Boy, did I know she was displeased with me and would put my plan on the skids. It usually involved some boy.........

On 6/1/2013 7:06 PM, Kalmia wrote:
> On Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:18:03 PM UTC-4, Steve Freides wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Yiddish is essentially German written with the Hebrew alphabet, plus a
>>
>> smattering of words from Hebrew and other sources. There is simply _no_
>>
>> way to come to a perfect spelling of the word in English,
>
> Agree. I am sure Yiddish scholars have debated spelling ad infinitum.
>
> Like the time I tried to get the 'spelling' of 'keye-bosh'. I'd heard it enough times, but had never seen it in print. I used to hate when I had some grand idea and my mother would say "I'll put the keye-bosh on YOU". Boy, did I know she was displeased with me and would put my plan on the skids. It usually involved some boy.........
>
LOL You mean kibosh?

Jill

On Sat, 1 Jun 2013 16:06:59 -0700 (PDT), Kalmia
> wrote:

> On Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:18:03 PM UTC-4, Steve Freides wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Yiddish is essentially German written with the Hebrew alphabet, plus a
> >
> > smattering of words from Hebrew and other sources. There is simply _no_
> >
> > way to come to a perfect spelling of the word in English,
>
> Agree. I am sure Yiddish scholars have debated spelling ad infinitum.
>
> Like the time I tried to get the 'spelling' of 'keye-bosh'. I'd heard it enough times, but had never seen it in print. I used to hate when I had some grand idea and my mother would say "I'll put the keye-bosh on YOU". Boy, did I know she was displeased with me and would put my plan on the skids. It usually involved some boy.........

That was a very popular word way back when. My grandparents used it
quite a bit. My parents probably didn't like using the same words
their parents used, so I didn't hear it from them (the rebels).

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Jun 1, 2:18*pm, "Steve Freides" > wrote:
> zxcvbob wrote:
> > Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from Yiddish
> > and therefore has no standard spelling?
>
> > Bob
>
> You are absolutely correct.
>
> IMHO, any transliterated work like that ought not to be used at all in
> an English spelling bee, let alone as the final word!
>
> Yiddish is essentially German written with the Hebrew alphabet, plus a
> smattering of words from Hebrew and other sources. *There is simply _no_
> way to come to a perfect spelling of the word in English, and person who
> chose it simply because they found it in a dictionary ought to be
> reprimanded and removed. *Any Yiddish word written in the Roman alphabet
> is, by definitioin, an approximation - transcription, transliteration,
> or what have you.
>

I've heard of knaidlach -- is that the plural?

spamtrap1888 wrote:
> On Jun 1, 2:18 pm, "Steve Freides" > wrote:
>> zxcvbob wrote:
>>> Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from
>>> Yiddish and therefore has no standard spelling?
>>
>>> Bob
>>
>> You are absolutely correct.
>>
>> IMHO, any transliterated work like that ought not to be used at all
>> in an English spelling bee, let alone as the final word!
>>
>> Yiddish is essentially German written with the Hebrew alphabet, plus
>> a smattering of words from Hebrew and other sources. There is simply
>> _no_ way to come to a perfect spelling of the word in English, and
>> person who chose it simply because they found it in a dictionary
>> ought to be reprimanded and removed. Any Yiddish word written in the
>> Roman alphabet is, by definitioin, an approximation - transcription,
>> transliteration, or what have you.
>>
>
> I've heard of knaidlach -- is that the plural?

To the best of my knowledge, yes.

-S-

On Sat, 1 Jun 2013 17:18:03 -0400, "Steve Freides" >
wrote:

>zxcvbob wrote:
>> Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from Yiddish
>> and therefore has no standard spelling?
>>
>> Bob
>
>You are absolutely correct.
>
>IMHO, any transliterated work like that ought not to be used at all in
>an English spelling bee, let alone as the final word!
>
>Yiddish is essentially German written with the Hebrew alphabet, plus a
>smattering of words from Hebrew and other sources. There is simply _no_
>way to come to a perfect spelling of the word in English, and person who
>chose it simply because they found it in a dictionary ought to be
>reprimanded and removed. Any Yiddish word written in the Roman alphabet
>is, by definitioin, an approximation - transcription, transliteration,
>or what have you.

I already made that reference early on in this thread... there is no
correct spelling for any transliteration... whoever was responsible
for choosing a word that relies on a different alphabet should be
banned from participating in any spelling bee, based on the
indisputible fact that they are a pointy headed imbecile.

/\
/ \
/ \
/ \
| ¤ ¤ |
| ¿ |
| «» |
|________| <---

Pointy-Headed Spelling Bee Imbecile Award®

On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 13:51:31 -0500, zxcvbob >
wrote:

>Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from Yiddish
>and therefore has no standard spelling?
>
>Bob


Check out the rules at http://spellingbee.com/node/96#source

So if it is found in that particular dictionary it is fair game.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)

zxcvbob > wrote:

> Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from Yiddish
> and therefore has no standard spelling?

Sometimes spelling means a lot more than an entry in a random
dictionary:

Jewish Identity, Spelled in Yiddish
By DARA HORN

<http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/opinion/jewish-identity-spelled-in-yiddish.html>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2013 23:15:02 +0200, (Victor Sack)
wrote:

>zxcvbob > wrote:
>
>> Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from Yiddish
>> and therefore has no standard spelling?
>
>Sometimes spelling means a lot more than an entry in a random
>dictionary:
>
>Jewish Identity, Spelled in Yiddish
>By DARA HORN
>
><http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/opinion/jewish-identity-spelled-in-yiddish.html>

That artical is a lot of hooey.

Ferdratah nisht kuhp... there is *NEVER* a correct spelling for a
_transliteration_... N E V E R ! ! !

Whoever put the Yiddish woid for matzo ball in an English spelling bee
is an IMBECILE[period]

I can spell the woid (knaydel) ten different ways, ALL correct ! ! !

On 06/06/2013 5:38 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

> That artical is a lot of hooey.
>
> Ferdratah nisht kuhp... there is *NEVER* a correct spelling for a
> _transliteration_... N E V E R ! ! !
>
> Whoever put the Yiddish woid for matzo ball in an English spelling bee
> is an IMBECILE[period]
>
> I can spell the woid (knaydel) ten different ways, ALL correct ! ! !
>
>


Besides, while it may be a foreign (Yiddish) word that has been adapted
into English, I would suggest that its use is probably limited to those
who speak Yiddish or within the Jewish community. It is not widespread.
I lived in an area with enough of a Jewish community that about 25% of
the students in my highschool were Jews. I never heard the word.

zxcvbob wrote:
> Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from Yiddish
> and therefore has no standard spelling?
>
> Bob

http://www.theonion.com/articles/mel...save-wor,2316/

-S-

Sqwertz wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 13:51:31 -0500, zxcvbob wrote:
>
>> Isn't knaidel (another word for dumpling) a transcription from Yiddish
>> and therefore has no standard spelling?
>
> Whoa - Deja Vu! Didn't we do this 36 hours ago?
>
> -sw


Looking back, yes. I hadn't read the other thread about lump of
leavened dough. BTW, I'm pretty sure matzo balls (the ur-knaidel) are
unleavened -- that's kind of their whole point.

Bob

Sqwertz wrote:
>
> Anyway - the reports on the TV news I saw/heard said the definition
> they used during the contest was "A small mass of leavened dough".
> And Googling that phrase confirms that is indeed the definition they
> used.
>
> So not only was it a controversial word spelling, but they got the
> definition entirely wrong.
>
> -sw


So the national spelling bee is now just a metaphor for our education
system?

Bob