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On 2/2/2013 7:12 PM, sf wrote:

> Those countries are not the USA and I have breaking news for you about
> other countries: When they figure out the customer is an American,
> they bust their butts for a tip over and above what's tacked on to the
> bill. Germans don't tip, so they just get basic service.


My parents used to travel abroad a lot when my dad was still alive and
they both said to tip for everything. Weird.
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Cheryl wrote:
>
>This thread has been interesting.


These tipping threads always out the cheap *******s... those who want
good service, good food, but don't want to pay.

>We always make sure the server is tipped well.


Especially if you intend to return.
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On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 20:47:26 -0500, Cheryl >
wrote:

> On 2/2/2013 7:12 PM, sf wrote:
>
> > Those countries are not the USA and I have breaking news for you about
> > other countries: When they figure out the customer is an American,
> > they bust their butts for a tip over and above what's tacked on to the
> > bill. Germans don't tip, so they just get basic service.

>
> My parents used to travel abroad a lot when my dad was still alive and
> they both said to tip for everything. Weird.


Tip for everything sounds like NYC in days of old.

--
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On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 18:30:59 -0700, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:

> On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 15:38:05 -0800, sf > wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 09:50:59 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:46:35 -0800, sf > wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 09:26:46 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> You're right about relocating though,
> >> >> more people should move to where the work is (if they need to find
> >> >> work).
> >> >
> >> >How are they supposed afford the cost of moving to a new local and
> >> >renting an apartment in the high cost area with no savings due to
> >> >chronic under-employment or unemployment?
> >>
> >> It must be really, really bad over there

> >
> >That's the reality. Those who have the ability to move to an area
> >where their skills are in demand, do it. With new construction being
> >in the dumps for so long, construction workers have been pretty much
> >SOL. I'm seeing a lot of new commercial construction lately, but the
> >housing industry hasn't rebounded yet.

>
> According to the news I read, it is rebounding, so is construction. In
> my state, days on market are pretty much back to "normal." That is
> to say, it is not a seller's market, it is equal between buyers and
> sellers. Perhaps not in your neighborhood.
> Janet US


It's rebounding... but it hasn't recovered and "days on the market"
only reflects how limited the choices are at this point.

The used housing market under a million dollars (what little there is
if it) in this part of the SF Bay Area is doing very well and offers
that would have been snapped up before the market collapsed are losing
out to all cash offers with no contingencies. But that isn't NEW
housing - which is what puts a large amount of people to work in
construction and what boosts the economy

--
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On 2/3/2013 12:50 PM, jmcquown wrote:

> Corporate seemed to take it in stride as the cost of doing business and
> keeping employees happy. It wasn't a regular thing, mind you. But
> being taken out for breakfast sure beat a couple of boxes of doughnuts
> in a boring conference room every Friday morning. LOL


When you work for a very large company it adds up, and ours mostly
doesn't do it anymore. At least not for my pay grade. I'm sure the
senior executives do, but our management isn't allowed to do that anymore.


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On 2/4/2013 4:44 PM, Jeßus wrote:

> I agree, it's not a good arrangement IMO.
> It'll probably never happen, but there needs to be a uniform, national
> minimum wage (a realistic one!) in the U.S.


Yeah, and our W2 form should change the wording of block 1 that says
"Wages, tips, other compensation".

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On 2/4/2013 5:26 PM, Jeßus wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 17:08:09 -0500, Brooklyn1
> > wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:44:24 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:51:58 -0500, Dave Smith
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 02/02/2013 5:13 PM, Susan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Minimum wage in Australia is almost $16 for an adult, so to me it
>>>>>> doesn't make much sense here to generally tip in a restaurant. Given
>>>>>> their reasonable minimum wage, why should they have some special
>>>>>> privilege over other minimum wage workers in other lines of
>>>>>> employment?
>>>>>
>>>>> Servers here are paid way below the standard prevailing minimum wage.
>>>>> There's no analogy here.
>>>>
>>>> Yes. That is my problem. Tipping is an anachronism in this day and age.
>>>> The servers should get a decent wage for their work ad should not have
>>>> to count on the generosity of their customers.
>>>
>>> I agree, it's not a good arrangement IMO.
>>> It'll probably never happen, but there needs to be a uniform, national
>>> minimum wage (a realistic one!) in the U.S.

>>
>> Why? Different parts of the US are at different economic levels, many
>> vastly different. The easiest and most realistic remedy is for people
>> to relocate to an area of an economic level of their choice, providing
>> they possess the necessary marketable skills. Many a waitress that
>> wants to earn more will move from the Dakotas to Las Vegas.

>
> Perhaps you have greater extremes in the economies of various regions
> over there? But it's essentially the same here in Aus with large
> variations in economic prosperity, in fact where I live has the
> highest unemployment/worst economy in the country. Yet nobody in their
> right mind here would make the same argument you have for the U.S, it
> just doesnt work that way here. You're right about relocating though,
> more people should move to where the work is (if they need to find
> work).
>

It doesn't work that way here, either. He's just being an ass.

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"ImStillMags" wrote in message
...

On Feb 2, 9:20 am, ImStillMags > wrote:
> On Feb 2, 5:17 am, "I'm back" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > notbob > wrote
> > :

>
> > > Boy, this outta be good for a battle royal.

>
> > > Should restaurant patrons be subject to an automatic surcharge (it's
> > > not a tip!) for groups over a certain number?

>
> > If there's a surcharge, then you shouldn't have to tip.

>
> > Bottom line, the USA should pay their workers the rate they are entitled
> > to, as the rest of the (civilised) world does.... instead of being the
> > cheap assholes they are and paying "minimum wage" where the worker has
> > to
> > survive on tips to live.

>
> > If you pay your workers peanuts, you get monkeys doing the job.

>
> Truer word were never spoken. Unfortunately it's been going on a
> long time and it is ingrained in the society.


Here in WA State, minimum wage is now over $9. Servers get paid
minimum wage, not like in some states that have a wage scale where
people who get tips get $3 a hour or so. Having a small independent
restaurant you learn to work with the big cost of doing business that
is salary costs. It's a big juggle for a lot of independents to make
it. What it does is that it weeds out the bad and sloppy and poorly
run restaurants.

People here know the servers make minimum wage and they still tip very
well, mainly because they get good food and good service and a
pleasant experience.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I would prefer it if tipping were eliminated and workers were paid a "true
wage" for their services. That means I would pay the actual cost listed on
the menu, and I would not leave tips (just as I never received tips for any
of my jobs). However, I realize that is not realistic. People who eat in
restaurants without leaving tips are really stiffing the wait staff because
the fact is they are *not* paid full value (or anywhere close to it) for
their services. Even in states where they are paid minimum wage, that is
"minimum" wage, not "fair" wage. I always leave at least 20% and leave more
if it is a very inexpensive restaurant because staff in those places work
very hard for very little money. The only time I can remember leaving no
tip at all was many years ago when I received incredibly bad service--wrong
food brought, then the replacement was very slow, never returned to the
table to ask if everything was satisfactory or to refill the water, then I
had to wait for a long time for the bill even after asking another server to
ask my server to come to the table. I noticed other people at her station
growing very impatient, so it was not some sort of personality reaction to
me. However, that's one time out of many years of eating out. I usually
receive very good service and seldom have any complaints.

Here's one other thought: At one time (again, many years ago), I thought it
would be appropriate to pay a larger percentage to servers in an inexpensive
restaurant but leave a much smaller percentage in an expensive restaurant
because the work was often essentially the same. Then my brother pointed
out that the upper-scale restaurants usually had far more workers (wait
staff, bus boys, hostess, kitchen, etc.) per patron, and tips are split
among them--tips usually do not go only to the waiter or waitress. That
changed my mind, and I still increase the tip in inexpensive restaurants but
pay the full 20% otherwise. I do sometimes wish there was a way to give
something extra *exclusively* to certain people (the server, the chef, etc.)
for exemplary service, but I do not know of any way to do that when tips are
split.

MaryL

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On Sunday, February 3, 2013 1:25:20 PM UTC-6, ImStillMags wrote:
> On Feb 3, 8:51*am, sf > wrote:
>
>
>
> >

>
> > > Whoa!@ *Barbara just turned Republican! *:-0

>
> >

>
> > No, I *AM* a Republican (always have been) - just not the standard

>
> > right winger type with a gun under each arm and a stick up their butt.

>
> > I am well acquainted with the saying: Watch your pennies and the

>
> > dollars will take care of themselves and I also know that copper wire

>
> > was invented when two Scotsmen fought over a penny.

>
>
>
>
>
> You are a rare bird and a dying breed, unfortunately. I was
>
> Republican many many years ago till I saw where things were heading.


The Republicans have gone bat shit loony. It's gotten to the point where I
can say that pretty much all of the good Republicans have one thing in
common, they're all dead. Think Lincoln, Grant, Teddy Roosevelt,
Eisenhower, all dead. I feel perfectly fine with saying that, "The only
good Republican is a dead Republican."

While I would never kill anyone other than in defense of life, I can
honestly say that I would not lift a finger to throw a Republican a
life preserver if I saw one drowning, and I'd consider that a moral
act. The Republican Party doesn't believe in safety nets, and it would
be funny to watch one die failing to pull themselves up by their boot
straps.

--Bryan
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On 04/02/2013 8:47 PM, Cheryl wrote:
> On 2/2/2013 7:12 PM, sf wrote:
>
>> Those countries are not the USA and I have breaking news for you about
>> other countries: When they figure out the customer is an American,
>> they bust their butts for a tip over and above what's tacked on to the
>> bill. Germans don't tip, so they just get basic service.

>
> My parents used to travel abroad a lot when my dad was still alive and
> they both said to tip for everything. Weird.



Don't worry. They will take your money. One one trip there were were
talking to our waiter about tipping. Our waiter was French and working
in Germany. He said that is it customary to leave only a small tip if
you are extremely happy but that Americans seem to be determined to
leave large tips. They will take the money but not respect them for
being so careless with their money and attitude. Some people consider it
to be insulting that others consider them to be so poorly paid that they
have to offer charity.




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On 04/02/2013 11:15 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>
> Agree on the adjustments, but not a uniform national wage. Living in
> the NYC or LA area is vastly different that Akron Ohio. I just cannot
> be done fairly, but the Federal minimum is a sad joke no matter where
> you live.
>



It is an even sadder joke when you consider that the senators who keep
nixing an increase in the federal minimum wage have given themselves a
series of raised totalling more than $30,000 per year, about three times
the annual wage of someone on their minimum.
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On 2/3/2013 3:08 PM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 10:24:06 -0800, sf > wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 12:04:55 -0500, jmcquown >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/3/2013 10:22 AM, sf wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 09:43:34 -0500, jmcquown >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/2/2013 12:27 PM, zxcvbob wrote:
>>>>>> Janet Bostwick wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I read the article, I'm sure it said that the total bill was over
>>>>>>> $200.
>>>>>>> Janet US
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I never saw an article, "notbob" said the bill was $34 and that's what I
>>>>>> conjectured with. (maybe $34 was the forced gratuity; that would be
>>>>>> about right if the bill was just under $200 before tax.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope. Here's the receipt:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://newyork.grubstreet.com/2013/0...reet--20130201
>>>>>
>>>>> Total bill, $34.93. That's not much for a large party to spend.
>>>>>
>>>> That's only a small part of the bill. The pastor had the waitress
>>>> break the original one into smaller parts to avoid the automatic
>>>> gratuity charge.
>>>>
>>> Then why is she saying in a separate interview the gratuity was charged
>>> to her credit card *and* she left $6 on the table? No one even knows
>>> how many were in the party.

>>
>> Apparently the pastor is a lying bitch.
>>
>>> This whole thing is silly.

>>
>> It could have been better handled by Applebee's corporate office.

>
> Of a not very forgiving nature since she called and demanded that
> everyone on duty that day be fired. She is now saying she is so sorry
> that she got someone fired.
> Janet US
>

Some articles say she was herself practically homeless at one time
before finding Jesus (or whatever she did). It doesn't seem like a very
Christian-like attitude. Now she regrets it? Yeah, right. Because she
made herself look like a complete moron. Maybe one day she'll have to
find a job at Applebee's...

Jill
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On 2/4/2013 1:50 PM, Sqwertz wrote:
> On 2 Feb 2013 13:00:23 GMT, notbob wrote:
>
>> BTW, how in God's name (it was church folk) did 20 ppl manage to run
>> up a bill of only $34 at an Applebees? Did they all order jes one
>> Coke? If I'd been the mgr, Ida told the entire lot to "fly away"
>> ....NOW!

>
> Apparently everybody who refers to the article has reading
> comprehension problems.
>
> The table was split up into several checks to avoid any one group of
> people getting the auto-tip charge. But the waitress added it anyway
> as they were clearly a party of 5 or more.
>
> -sw
>

I'm pretty sure the computer added that gratuity. Even with separate
checks they were all "billed" to the same table at the same time.

Jill
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On 2/4/2013 6:31 PM, Jeßus wrote:
> Just came across this:
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...unt=1&r ef=nf
>


That's true, but it's the *federal* minimum wage. Individual states
have the power to raise the minimum wage for both tipped and non-tipped
employees. Some do, some don't. When I waited tables in lived in
Tennessee which hasn't set any wages above the federal minimum. I was
earning $2.13/hr. + tips. If I decided to wait tables again (not going
to happen) now that I live in South Carolina, the same thing would
apply. Who can live on $2.13/hour even with tips? And then the federal
government taxes the tips whether you actually get a tip or not.

At least with a minimum gratuity for large parties the server is less
likely to be stiffed. Do I like the tip system? No. But when I was
20-ish and tips weren't taxed I never gave it much thought.

Jill
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On 2/2/2013 9:47 AM, Gary wrote:

> IMO, people that are tight with tipping should stay home and cook.


Agreed. It is ridiculous that we've gotten stuck in this antiquated
method of optionally paying the restaurant's true labor costs via
tips. The workers depend on the honesty of the diners to receive their
proper wages; cheapskates and stiffs put an undue burden on the rest
of the diners, who are expected to make up for the cheapskates by
means of a higher expected minimum tip amount.

Better to bite the bullet, pay a fair wage, and abolish tipping
altogether. Everyone would pay the true cost of the meal.

Yeah . . . like that'll ever happen.


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On 05/02/2013 10:35 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
> On 2/2/2013 9:47 AM, Gary wrote:
>
>> IMO, people that are tight with tipping should stay home and cook.

>
> Agreed. It is ridiculous that we've gotten stuck in this antiquated
> method of optionally paying the restaurant's true labor costs via tips.
> The workers depend on the honesty of the diners to receive their proper
> wages; cheapskates and stiffs put an undue burden on the rest of the
> diners, who are expected to make up for the cheapskates by means of a
> higher expected minimum tip amount.



I think the cheapskates are the restaurant owners who don't want to have
to pay a decent wage, and the customers who won't pay the higher menu
prices. They prefer to delude themselves into thinking it is cheaper to
eat in a place with lower prices and them dangle tips in front of the
waiters to be treated like a queen.

>
> Better to bite the bullet, pay a fair wage, and abolish tipping
> altogether. Everyone would pay the true cost of the meal.
>



Curiously, many here will leap at the opportunity to call others
tightwads when they have already indicated they would rather pay the
higher price so the staff made enough that would not need tips to make a
living.


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On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 09:25:34 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> On 04/02/2013 8:47 PM, Cheryl wrote:
> > On 2/2/2013 7:12 PM, sf wrote:
> >
> >> Those countries are not the USA and I have breaking news for you about
> >> other countries: When they figure out the customer is an American,
> >> they bust their butts for a tip over and above what's tacked on to the
> >> bill. Germans don't tip, so they just get basic service.

> >
> > My parents used to travel abroad a lot when my dad was still alive and
> > they both said to tip for everything. Weird.

>
>
> Don't worry. They will take your money. One one trip there were were
> talking to our waiter about tipping. Our waiter was French and working
> in Germany. He said that is it customary to leave only a small tip if
> you are extremely happy but that Americans seem to be determined to
> leave large tips. They will take the money but not respect them for
> being so careless with their money and attitude. Some people consider it
> to be insulting that others consider them to be so poorly paid that they
> have to offer charity.
>

Frankly, I don't care what they think as long as they do their job.
If they are all that "insulted" by a little extra money in their
pockets, then they shouldn't be serving Americans.

--
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On 2/5/2013 11:28 AM, sf wrote:
>> Don't worry. They will take your money. One one trip there were were
>> >talking to our waiter about tipping. Our waiter was French and working
>> >in Germany. He said that is it customary to leave only a small tip if
>> >you are extremely happy but that Americans seem to be determined to
>> >leave large tips. They will take the money but not respect them for
>> >being so careless with their money and attitude. Some people consider it
>> >to be insulting that others consider them to be so poorly paid that they
>> >have to offer charity.
>> >

> Frankly, I don't care what they think as long as they do their job.
> If they are all that "insulted" by a little extra money in their
> pockets, then they shouldn't be serving Americans.


They should serve whoever is seated. However, they should also be so
"insulted" that they say, "Oh no, monsieur, I will not take your money!" LOL

It seems odd that a waiter in *any* country would complain about, much
less be disdainful about, being handed extra money.

Jill
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On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 4:25:34 AM UTC-10, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 04/02/2013 8:47 PM, Cheryl wrote:
>
> > On 2/2/2013 7:12 PM, sf wrote:

>
> >

>
> >> Those countries are not the USA and I have breaking news for you about

>
> >> other countries: When they figure out the customer is an American,

>
> >> they bust their butts for a tip over and above what's tacked on to the

>
> >> bill. Germans don't tip, so they just get basic service.

>
> >

>
> > My parents used to travel abroad a lot when my dad was still alive and

>
> > they both said to tip for everything. Weird.

>
>
>
>
>
> Don't worry. They will take your money. One one trip there were were
>
> talking to our waiter about tipping. Our waiter was French and working
>
> in Germany. He said that is it customary to leave only a small tip if
>
> you are extremely happy but that Americans seem to be determined to
>
> leave large tips. They will take the money but not respect them for
>
> being so careless with their money and attitude. Some people consider it
>
> to be insulting that others consider them to be so poorly paid that they
>
> have to offer charity.


Don't believe it - it's just a ploy to get Americans to large tips.
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 11:47:54 -0500, jmcquown >
wrote:

>On 2/5/2013 11:28 AM, sf wrote:
>>> Don't worry. They will take your money. One one trip there were were
>>> >talking to our waiter about tipping. Our waiter was French and working
>>> >in Germany. He said that is it customary to leave only a small tip if
>>> >you are extremely happy but that Americans seem to be determined to
>>> >leave large tips. They will take the money but not respect them for
>>> >being so careless with their money and attitude. Some people consider it
>>> >to be insulting that others consider them to be so poorly paid that they
>>> >have to offer charity.
>>> >

>> Frankly, I don't care what they think as long as they do their job.
>> If they are all that "insulted" by a little extra money in their
>> pockets, then they shouldn't be serving Americans.

>
>They should serve whoever is seated. However, they should also be so
>"insulted" that they say, "Oh no, monsieur, I will not take your money!" LOL
>
>It seems odd that a waiter in *any* country would complain about, much
>less be disdainful about, being handed extra money.
>
>Jill

Exactly. What kind of place would have a wait staff so crude that
they would have a conversation with a foreign diner/guest about how
insulted they were to be offered a tip. The conversation was
inappropriate from both the diner and the waiter. The 'waiter' needs
to seek another job and the diner needs to find a better quality place
to eat. But, I guess like attracts like.
Janet US


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On 2/5/2013 12:29 PM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 11:47:54 -0500, jmcquown >
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/5/2013 11:28 AM, sf wrote:
>>>> Don't worry. They will take your money. One one trip there were were
>>>>> talking to our waiter about tipping. Our waiter was French and working
>>>>> in Germany. He said that is it customary to leave only a small tip if
>>>>> you are extremely happy but that Americans seem to be determined to
>>>>> leave large tips. They will take the money but not respect them for
>>>>> being so careless with their money and attitude. Some people consider it
>>>>> to be insulting that others consider them to be so poorly paid that they
>>>>> have to offer charity.
>>>>>
>>> Frankly, I don't care what they think as long as they do their job.
>>> If they are all that "insulted" by a little extra money in their
>>> pockets, then they shouldn't be serving Americans.

>>
>> They should serve whoever is seated. However, they should also be so
>> "insulted" that they say, "Oh no, monsieur, I will not take your money!" LOL
>>
>> It seems odd that a waiter in *any* country would complain about, much
>> less be disdainful about, being handed extra money.
>>
>> Jill

> Exactly. What kind of place would have a wait staff so crude that
> they would have a conversation with a foreign diner/guest about how
> insulted they were to be offered a tip. The conversation was
> inappropriate from both the diner and the waiter. The 'waiter' needs
> to seek another job and the diner needs to find a better quality place
> to eat. But, I guess like attracts like.
> Janet US
>

Dave's telling of it sort of reinforces stereotype the French are
"snooty". LOL I wouldn't know. I've never been to France.

Jill
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 10:54:00 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> On 05/02/2013 10:35 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
> > On 2/2/2013 9:47 AM, Gary wrote:
> >
> >
> > Better to bite the bullet, pay a fair wage, and abolish tipping
> > altogether. Everyone would pay the true cost of the meal.
> >

>
>
> Curiously, many here will leap at the opportunity to call others
> tightwads when they have already indicated they would rather pay the
> higher price so the staff made enough that would not need tips to make a
> living.
>

Tipping will never die in the USA because we believe in people being
compensated for a job well done. Do you see them getting merit raises
other than what they earn in tips? I don't. I'd like servers to be
paid at least minimum wages as a base; but I also want a way for them
to be able to stay at a job they like and not live at the poverty
level. Tipping does it for me. You don't like it and no one is
forcing you to dine in our restaurants.

--
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 11:47:54 -0500, jmcquown >
wrote:

> It seems odd that a waiter in *any* country would complain about, much
> less be disdainful about, being handed extra money.


They don't. As I said upthread, they step up their game when they
figure out we're Americans because they know we know when a tip is
included in the bill and they also know that we tip over and above for
good (American style) service. The only restaurant servers I've found
that I can say really didn't give a damn were in Rome... but it's a
cultural difference that boarders more on arrogance than ignorance
when it happens in a restaurant serves Americans on a regular basis.

--
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On 05/02/2013 12:29 PM, Janet Bostwick wrote:

>> It seems odd that a waiter in *any* country would complain about, much
>> less be disdainful about, being handed extra money.
>>
>> Jill

> Exactly. What kind of place would have a wait staff so crude that
> they would have a conversation with a foreign diner/guest about how
> insulted they were to be offered a tip. The conversation was
> inappropriate from both the diner and the waiter. The 'waiter' needs
> to seek another job and the diner needs to find a better quality place
> to eat. But, I guess like attracts like.


He was a very friendly waiter, French and working in Germany, and he was
quite comical. No need to take offence about his comments on Americans
because he was much more negative toward his own countrymen, saying that
they never tip because they are downright cheap.

I don't think it is inappropriate to ask about tipping practices. One of
the problems with the custom is that it varies so much from place to
place. In some places in the US, the minimum wage for servers is so
pitifully low that they need big tips to survive. In other places you
are already being charged in the menu price so tips are not expected.

In some places there is service charge included in the bill. That is the
case in France. In most of France service is included and it is supposed
to indicate that on the bill. They do not have to show that in Paris
because in that city it is always included.

Then there is the issue about whether to base your tip on the tax. Some
people are under the impression that you should. Most regular diners
will suggest not to and I see no reason to pay 15% or more on the tax.
The server has nothing to do with that tax, and tax varies a lot from
place to place.




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On 2/5/2013 1:21 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 05/02/2013 12:29 PM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
>>> It seems odd that a waiter in *any* country would complain about, much
>>> less be disdainful about, being handed extra money.
>>>
>>> Jill

>> Exactly. What kind of place would have a wait staff so crude that
>> they would have a conversation with a foreign diner/guest about how
>> insulted they were to be offered a tip. The conversation was
>> inappropriate from both the diner and the waiter. The 'waiter' needs
>> to seek another job and the diner needs to find a better quality place
>> to eat. But, I guess like attracts like.

>
> He was a very friendly waiter, French and working in Germany, and he
> was quite comical. No need to take offence about his comments on
> Americans because he was much more negative toward his own countrymen,
> saying that they never tip because they are downright cheap.
>
> I don't think it is inappropriate to ask about tipping practices. One
> of the problems with the custom is that it varies so much from place
> to place. In some places in the US, the minimum wage for servers is so
> pitifully low that they need big tips to survive. In other places you
> are already being charged in the menu price so tips are not expected.
>
> In some places there is service charge included in the bill. That is
> the case in France. In most of France service is included and it is
> supposed to indicate that on the bill. They do not have to show that
> in Paris because in that city it is always included.
>
> Then there is the issue about whether to base your tip on the tax.
> Some people are under the impression that you should. Most regular
> diners will suggest not to and I see no reason to pay 15% or more on
> the tax. The server has nothing to do with that tax, and tax varies a
> lot from place to place.
>
>
>
>

It's been pointed out before that, if you know what is the tax
percentage, you can use it to work out a tip. However, 15% is pretty
easy to calculate; just take 10% and add on half as much. I'd doubtless
adjust to the next upper dollar.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.



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"jmcquown" > wrote in message
...
> On 2/5/2013 12:29 PM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
>> On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 11:47:54 -0500, jmcquown >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/5/2013 11:28 AM, sf wrote:
>>>>> Don't worry. They will take your money. One one trip there were were
>>>>>> talking to our waiter about tipping. Our waiter was French and
>>>>>> working
>>>>>> in Germany. He said that is it customary to leave only a small tip if
>>>>>> you are extremely happy but that Americans seem to be determined to
>>>>>> leave large tips. They will take the money but not respect them for
>>>>>> being so careless with their money and attitude. Some people consider
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> to be insulting that others consider them to be so poorly paid that
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> have to offer charity.
>>>>>>
>>>> Frankly, I don't care what they think as long as they do their job.
>>>> If they are all that "insulted" by a little extra money in their
>>>> pockets, then they shouldn't be serving Americans.
>>>
>>> They should serve whoever is seated. However, they should also be so
>>> "insulted" that they say, "Oh no, monsieur, I will not take your money!"
>>> LOL
>>>
>>> It seems odd that a waiter in *any* country would complain about, much
>>> less be disdainful about, being handed extra money.
>>>
>>> Jill

>> Exactly. What kind of place would have a wait staff so crude that
>> they would have a conversation with a foreign diner/guest about how
>> insulted they were to be offered a tip. The conversation was
>> inappropriate from both the diner and the waiter. The 'waiter' needs
>> to seek another job and the diner needs to find a better quality place
>> to eat. But, I guess like attracts like.
>> Janet US
>>

> Dave's telling of it sort of reinforces stereotype the French are
> "snooty". LOL I wouldn't know. I've never been to France.


TBH I lived in Germany/France/Belgium for a long time and never came across
that. Perhaps I didn't eat in the same places.

--
--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

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sf wrote:
>
> Gary wrote:
> > Whoa!@ Barbara just turned Republican! :-0

>
> No, I *AM* a Republican (always have been) - just not the standard
> right winger type with a gun under each arm and a stick up their butt.



I'm shocked. In all this time here hearing from you...I'm...... shocked.
I also *used* to be a republican until they turned into a "racist homophobic
misogynistic warped-Christian plutocracy." (Good one, Bob!)


> I am well acquainted with the saying: Watch your pennies and the
> dollars will take care of themselves and I also know that copper wire
> was invented when two Scotsmen fought over a penny.


I've never heard the history of copper wire but I love that. hehehh
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Shelley's stirrin' the pot.

> >Then you'd want to avoid going into pretty much any U.S. restaurant with
> >a party of 6 or more.

>
> Or even alone.


I dare you to name 3 restaurants where you haven't been banned for life.


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"Jeßus" wrote:

> Reading this, I feel like I'm observing aliens on another planet...
> what a crazy approach to employment and taxation!


Yeah...we are a great but weird country. heheh Still some bugs to work
out.
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On 2/5/2013 6:28 AM, sf wrote:
> Frankly, I don't care what they think as long as they do their job.
> If they are all that "insulted" by a little extra money in their
> pockets, then they shouldn't be serving Americans.
>


My OCD friend used to have a crazy girlfriend and as a couple, they must
have been a server's nightmare - obnoxious and demanding. I don't know
how it went down but they left a tip of a few pennies.* The waitress
chased them down on the street, screamed at them, and flung the pennies
at them. Then things started to get really ugly...


*This is something that a lot of folks have thought of doing but only
the most awful of people have actually done.


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On 05/02/2013 3:37 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On 2/5/2013 6:28 AM, sf wrote:
>> Frankly, I don't care what they think as long as they do their job.
>> If they are all that "insulted" by a little extra money in their
>> pockets, then they shouldn't be serving Americans.
>>

>
> My OCD friend used to have a crazy girlfriend and as a couple, they must
> have been a server's nightmare - obnoxious and demanding. I don't know
> how it went down but they left a tip of a few pennies.* The waitress
> chased them down on the street, screamed at them, and flung the pennies
> at them. Then things started to get really ugly...


My neighbour and I have a mutual friend, more of an acquaintance we
can't seem to lose. He is the cheapest SOB you could ever meet. Most
people call him Cheap Bob. IF he lives a tip he will make a big
production of it, but he rarely tips. He will look for any excuse to cut
back on the tip. Neighbour told me about Cheap Bob once flipping out a a
waitress and not tipping her because Bob had ordered first but
neighbour's food came first. We're talking a waitress taking their
orders at the same time but taking Bob's first. She brought neighbour's
food and then went right back to the kitchen for Bob's. If she had
brought them at the same time she probably would have had to set his
down first.... because he ordered first.

This is an example of the sort of crap that server's have to put up with
that affects how I feel about them depending on customers' generosity to
make their living.

As if it is not bad enough that people in larger parties tend not to tip
as well, I worked with a couple guys that would have them working for
nothing. One would not leave a tip if his life depended on it and the
other once got caught taking some of the tip money left by the others.




>
> *This is something that a lot of folks have thought of doing but only
> the most awful of people have actually done.



My mother told me once about going to a well known local seafood
restaurant and having horrible service. There was a couple at the next
table and they had commented to each other about how bad the service
was. As an example, they were the only two tables there and when the
man's soup arrived it was cold. The couple left a very small tip... to
show their displeasure. The waitress went chasing after them, screamed
at them and threw the tip money at them.







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On 2/5/2013 11:37 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 05/02/2013 3:37 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>> On 2/5/2013 6:28 AM, sf wrote:
>>> Frankly, I don't care what they think as long as they do their job.
>>> If they are all that "insulted" by a little extra money in their
>>> pockets, then they shouldn't be serving Americans.
>>>

>>
>> My OCD friend used to have a crazy girlfriend and as a couple, they must
>> have been a server's nightmare - obnoxious and demanding. I don't know
>> how it went down but they left a tip of a few pennies.* The waitress
>> chased them down on the street, screamed at them, and flung the pennies
>> at them. Then things started to get really ugly...

>
> My neighbour and I have a mutual friend, more of an acquaintance we
> can't seem to lose. He is the cheapest SOB you could ever meet. Most
> people call him Cheap Bob. IF he lives a tip he will make a big
> production of it, but he rarely tips. He will look for any excuse to cut
> back on the tip. Neighbour told me about Cheap Bob once flipping out a a
> waitress and not tipping her because Bob had ordered first but
> neighbour's food came first. We're talking a waitress taking their
> orders at the same time but taking Bob's first. She brought neighbour's
> food and then went right back to the kitchen for Bob's. If she had
> brought them at the same time she probably would have had to set his
> down first.... because he ordered first.
>
> This is an example of the sort of crap that server's have to put up with
> that affects how I feel about them depending on customers' generosity to
> make their living.
>
> As if it is not bad enough that people in larger parties tend not to tip
> as well, I worked with a couple guys that would have them working for
> nothing. One would not leave a tip if his life depended on it and the
> other once got caught taking some of the tip money left by the others.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> *This is something that a lot of folks have thought of doing but only
>> the most awful of people have actually done.

>
>
> My mother told me once about going to a well known local seafood
> restaurant and having horrible service. There was a couple at the next
> table and they had commented to each other about how bad the service
> was. As an example, they were the only two tables there and when the
> man's soup arrived it was cold. The couple left a very small tip... to
> show their displeasure. The waitress went chasing after them, screamed
> at them and threw the tip money at them.


Tipping, as institution sucks, but my guess is that a lot of service
people consider it to be a good thing. Hell, I even get tips. It's a
little embarrassing but to the kid in me, it feels like it's Christmas
and it puts a smile on my face... see? :-)


>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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On Sunday, February 3, 2013 11:19:08 AM UTC-5, George M. Middius wrote:
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>
>
> > >The drinks are where the profit is.

>
> >

>
> > I've been to a few places in Italy where they charge about 2 Euro for

>
> > wine. They put a pitcher on the table and you drink as much or as

>
> > little as you like. Decent stuff too.

>
> >

>
> > The pitcher is filled from a cask of about five gallons or so. The

>
> > locals also buy wine in bulk. They all know someone that makes it. I

>
> > was shocked at the low prices in stores for good wine too.

>
>
>
> If you want to enjoy the pinko lifestyle, by all means go to Italy.


You're a ****ing boring idiot, Middiot.
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On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 2:42:12 PM UTC-5, George M. Middius wrote:
> Shelley's stirrin' the pot.
>
>
>
> > >Then you'd want to avoid going into pretty much any U.S. restaurant with

>
> > >a party of 6 or more.

>
> >

>
> > Or even alone.

>
>
>
> I dare you to name 3 restaurants where you haven't been banned for life.


I dare you to post one thing that isn't a waste of time to read. Why are you here, you imbecile? You might wonder why I reply to you so much. It's because you pollute this group with posts that have no redeeming value. I know, I know, "so do you". Save it half wit.
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On Tue, 5 Feb 2013 04:15:59 -0800 (PST), Bryan
> wrote:

>The Republicans have gone bat shit loony. It's gotten to the point where I
>can say that pretty much all of the good Republicans have one thing in
>common, they're all dead. Think Lincoln, Grant, Teddy Roosevelt,
>Eisenhower, all dead. I feel perfectly fine with saying that, "The only
>good Republican is a dead Republican."
>
>While I would never kill anyone other than in defense of life, I can
>honestly say that I would not lift a finger to throw a Republican a
>life preserver if I saw one drowning, and I'd consider that a moral
>act. The Republican Party doesn't believe in safety nets, and it would
>be funny to watch one die failing to pull themselves up by their boot
>straps.


So, why not tell us what you /really/ think about the Republicans...
don't beat around the bush this time


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On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 7:22:36 PM UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2013 04:15:59 -0800 (PST), Bryan
>
> > wrote:
>
>
>
> >The Republicans have gone bat shit loony. It's gotten to the point where I

>
> >can say that pretty much all of the good Republicans have one thing in

>
> >common, they're all dead. Think Lincoln, Grant, Teddy Roosevelt,

>
> >Eisenhower, all dead. I feel perfectly fine with saying that, "The only

>
> >good Republican is a dead Republican."

>
> >

>
> >While I would never kill anyone other than in defense of life, I can

>
> >honestly say that I would not lift a finger to throw a Republican a

>
> >life preserver if I saw one drowning, and I'd consider that a moral

>
> >act. The Republican Party doesn't believe in safety nets, and it would

>
> >be funny to watch one die failing to pull themselves up by their boot

>
> >straps.

>
>
>
> So, why not tell us what you /really/ think about the Republicans...
>
> don't beat around the bush this time


How about you just **** off when it comes to commenting about things outside of that backwater you call home? The worst year in America beats living on convict island.
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On 2/5/2013 1:18 PM, sf wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 11:47:54 -0500, jmcquown >
> wrote:
>
>> It seems odd that a waiter in *any* country would complain about, much
>> less be disdainful about, being handed extra money.

>
> They don't. As I said upthread, they step up their game when they
> figure out we're Americans because they know we know when a tip is
> included in the bill and they also know that we tip over and above for
> good (American style) service. The only restaurant servers I've found
> that I can say really didn't give a damn were in Rome... but it's a
> cultural difference that boarders more on arrogance
>

Arrogance also doesn't sound like a trait I'd want in a server. I'll
stay in the US, thanks. At least I know what to expect here, even in
different states

Jill
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On 05/02/2013 9:00 PM, John J wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2013 16:35:26 -0800 (PST), wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 7:22:36 PM UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:
>>> On Tue, 5 Feb 2013 04:15:59 -0800 (PST), Bryan
>>>
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The Republicans have gone bat shit loony. It's gotten to the point where I
>>>
>>>> can say that pretty much all of the good Republicans have one thing in
>>>
>>>> common, they're all dead. Think Lincoln, Grant, Teddy Roosevelt,
>>>
>>>> Eisenhower, all dead. I feel perfectly fine with saying that, "The only
>>>
>>>> good Republican is a dead Republican."
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> While I would never kill anyone other than in defense of life, I can
>>>
>>>> honestly say that I would not lift a finger to throw a Republican a
>>>
>>>> life preserver if I saw one drowning, and I'd consider that a moral
>>>
>>>> act. The Republican Party doesn't believe in safety nets, and it would
>>>
>>>> be funny to watch one die failing to pull themselves up by their boot
>>>
>>>> straps.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, why not tell us what you /really/ think about the Republicans...
>>>
>>> don't beat around the bush this time

>>
>> How about you just **** off when it comes to commenting about things
>> outside of that backwater you call home? The worst year in America
>> beats living on convict island.

>
> Number of people in jail:
>
> #1 United States: 715 per 100,000
> ....
> ....
> ....
> ....
> #73 Australia: 116 per 100,000
>
>
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita
>



I guess he wasn't aware that British used to send their convicts and
debtors to the American colonies. They had to stop that after the
revolution so they started sending them to Australia.
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 09:35:16 -0600, Moe DeLoughan >
wrote:

>On 2/2/2013 9:47 AM, Gary wrote:
>
>> IMO, people that are tight with tipping should stay home and cook.

>
>Agreed. It is ridiculous that we've gotten stuck in this antiquated
>method of optionally paying the restaurant's true labor costs via
>tips. The workers depend on the honesty of the diners to receive their
>proper wages; cheapskates and stiffs put an undue burden on the rest
>of the diners, who are expected to make up for the cheapskates by
>means of a higher expected minimum tip amount.
>
>Better to bite the bullet, pay a fair wage, and abolish tipping
>altogether. Everyone would pay the true cost of the meal.
>
>Yeah . . . like that'll ever happen.


I bet many waiters don't want to get a "decent wage" as they can do
better on tips. Depends on the particular restaurant, but many make a
very good living, better than most salaried people.

For some, minimum wage would be a comfort, but for many, it would be
a pay cut. I don't see most restaurants paying big bucks.
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On 2/5/2013 11:43 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> I bet many waiters don't want to get a "decent wage" as they can do
> better on tips. Depends on the particular restaurant, but many make a
> very good living, better than most salaried people.


I've been a regular at a number of restaurants over the years.
The people who wait on me are not stupid, they aren't indentured
servants, waiting is not the only career they are capable of doing
successfully. When they leave a job, they go wait or tend bar
elsewhere, often. They have houses, cars, families. Maybe they are
working their way through college.

In the meantime, I leave a good tip, we all get what we came for
and people don't need to wring their hands in despair for them.
Geez, if it takes me an hour to eat (rarely), they make minimum
wage just off me ... and they have a bunch more tables.

nancy
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