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On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 13:08:21 -0700, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:

> On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 10:24:06 -0800, sf > wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 12:04:55 -0500, jmcquown >
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On 2/3/2013 10:22 AM, sf wrote:
> >> > On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 09:43:34 -0500, jmcquown >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 2/2/2013 12:27 PM, zxcvbob wrote:
> >> >>> Janet Bostwick wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> When I read the article, I'm sure it said that the total bill was over
> >> >>>> $200.
> >> >>>> Janet US
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I never saw an article, "notbob" said the bill was $34 and that's what I
> >> >>> conjectured with. (maybe $34 was the forced gratuity; that would be
> >> >>> about right if the bill was just under $200 before tax.)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Bob
> >> >>
> >> >> Nope. Here's the receipt:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://newyork.grubstreet.com/2013/0...reet--20130201
> >> >>
> >> >> Total bill, $34.93. That's not much for a large party to spend.
> >> >>
> >> > That's only a small part of the bill. The pastor had the waitress
> >> > break the original one into smaller parts to avoid the automatic
> >> > gratuity charge.
> >> >
> >> Then why is she saying in a separate interview the gratuity was charged
> >> to her credit card *and* she left $6 on the table? No one even knows
> >> how many were in the party.

> >
> >Apparently the pastor is a lying bitch.
> >
> >> This whole thing is silly.

> >
> >It could have been better handled by Applebee's corporate office.

>
> Of a not very forgiving nature since she called and demanded that
> everyone on duty that day be fired. She is now saying she is so sorry
> that she got someone fired.
> Janet US


Heh. See my first statement above. She's an embarrassment to her
fellow god fearing Christians.

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On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 11:25:20 -0800 (PST), ImStillMags
> wrote:

> On Feb 3, 8:51*am, sf > wrote:
>
> >
> > > Whoa!@ *Barbara just turned Republican! *:-0

> >
> > No, I *AM* a Republican (always have been) - just not the standard
> > right winger type with a gun under each arm and a stick up their butt.
> > I am well acquainted with the saying: Watch your pennies and the
> > dollars will take care of themselves and I also know that copper wire
> > was invented when two Scotsmen fought over a penny.

>
>
> You are a rare bird and a dying breed, unfortunately. I was
> Republican many many years ago till I saw where things were heading.
>
>

Hope springs eternal; but I'm beginning to lose faith in seeing things
turn around any time soon. I actually seriously considered changing
my party affiliation for this last election, but then I realized that
my vote will count no matter which party I'm registered with.

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Gary wrote:

> > They didn't get their bucks by giving their money away!

>
> Whoa!@ Barbara just turned Republican! :-0


I doubt it. She's just having one of her semiweekly ditz attacks.

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On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 12:29:24 -0500, jmcquown >
wrote:

>On 2/3/2013 12:14 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
>> On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 09:21:22 -0500, jmcquown >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/2/2013 2:22 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:27:59 -0500, Dave Smith
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 02/02/2013 9:31 AM, Gary wrote:
>>>>>> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can make arguments both ways, such as paying a good wage and
>>>>>>> eliminating the tip. As long as you know up front, I don't have a
>>>>>>> problem with the 18% add on. Every year at our Christmas party (about
>>>>>>> 40 people) they add the 18%. Unlike the cheapo pastor, the bill is
>>>>>>> paid with additional tip added.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't eat out often but when I do I always tip 25-30 percent. I know
>>>>>> that's high but I also realize that waitresses get paid very little and
>>>>>> count on tips. I appreciate their care (if it's good) so I don't mind
>>>>>> paying that.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're right. It is high.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I wanted to save money, I'd cook at home for much cheaper, even without
>>>>>> the tip.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, but I don't buy into the argument that if you can afford to eat
>>>>> out you can afford to pay a larger tip. I am not into playing Mr.
>>>>> Bigshot and expecting wait staff to jump when I snap my fingers. They
>>>>> aren't trained dogs. The taking of orders and delivery of food is part
>>>>> of the service that you get when you eat in a restaurant. If I have to
>>>>> pay extra to get a smile and the patronizing tip soliciting behaviour I
>>>>> will take the food without the smile and save the money.
>>>>
>>> (gentle snippage)
>>>> I never put tips on plastic, all my tips are in green
>>>> money directly into the hand of my the server, I never leave a tip on
>>>> the table. Those who don't carry cash are the worst of the
>>>> cheapskates.
>>>>
>>> You sound like my father! He cautioned never put tips on "plastic"
>>> (credit card). He figured what the government doesn't know won't hurt
>>> them. The problem with this is tips are taxed based on total sales.
>>> Cash or plastic, it doesn't matter. Uncle Sam is gonna get his even if
>>> the server didn't earn that much in tips.

>>
>> My tipping with cash into the hand of the person has not a whit to do
>> with government (I've no control over taxation nor do I pretend to),
>> it's only that I like to make sure my tip goes to the person for whom
>> I intended, this way they remember it's me who tipped them and how
>> much. Leaving cash on a restaurant table and walking away is as
>> foolish as foolish gets... when leaving it's no biggie to walk over to
>> my server and press cash into their hand and thank them.
>>
>>

>I was mistaken on the reason for cash vs. plastic. Sorry about that.
>
>Jill


Actually I don't pay my restaurant tabs with credit cards, always with
cash.
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On 03/02/2013 3:49 PM, Nancy Young wrote:

> I get the surcharge, too. If you have ever gone out to eat with
> a large group, you have all kinds and the end result is that the
> wait staff is stiffed. It's a whole dynamic.


I get it too. I am one of the people who has been stuck looking after a
bill where some cheap *******s don't want to pay for all the food the
food that they ordered and consumed let alone a tip. But if the problem
is that some people stiff the waiters (or the person responsible for the
bill) for tips, there is no reason to compensate the the stiffers by
making it 18% instead of 15%. And don't call it a gratuity because a
gruatuity, be definition, is voluntary. You can't force people to make a
voluntary gratuity. Either include it in the price or call it a
service charge.



> The surcharge is fine with me, for groups. Inevitably, the group
> contains people who should maybe just go eat somewhere else as they
> are so begrudging of any idea they might pay a penny extra towards
> someone else's meal by accident.


Okay... but again... if the standard is 15% and some people tend to
stiff, them 18% would counteract that..... when it is Voluntary. When
they are being billed for the service, which is no longer a gratuity,
there is no reason to charge the higher amount.

If the owner really feels that his staff needs to make more money he can
pay them more. If the problem is that the waiter has a hard time coping
with a large party, that is their problem. If I am being expected to pay
a higher amount that the menu price for the service then I should expect
at least the same degree of service that I would if I was in a party of
2 or 4.

If the can't manage that, they can always say they are sorry but they
cannot accommodate large parties. Fill the room with small round tables
that cannot be joined together for large groups


>
> nancy




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On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 11:07:56 -0800, sf > wrote:

>On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 13:39:42 -0500, Jim Elbrecht >
>wrote:
>
>> Earlier this week I learned that Geraldo
>> Rivera was republican, too. [and thinking about a senate run]

>
>You couldn't figure out he was a Republican with him being on contract
>with Fox and being paid to spout their line of BS?


I always thought they just picked the most obnoxious, over the top,
bleeding heart, idiot to be their 'token liberal'. He reinforces
every stereotype Fox sells about liberals.

It is so sad that the guy who is most responsible for turning the
mental health profession on its ear in the 70's- has just turned into
such a buffoon.

Jim
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"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 01:29:21 -0800, "Julie Bove"
> > wrote:
>
>> Also some
>> (but not all) retail people get an extra percentage based on sales.
>> There's
>> a term for that but the name escapes me.

>
> Commission?


That's it! Thanks.


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Sitara wrote:

> I was Republican many many years ago till I saw where things were heading.


What if there were millions like you? You could have voted in candidates and
policies which have your approval, and the GOP would be the party which
became great under Eisenhower, rather than the racist homophobic
misogynistic warped-Christian plutocracy it's become.

Bob

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"Gary" > wrote in message ...
> sf wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 01:29:21 -0800, "Julie Bove"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > Also some
>> > (but not all) retail people get an extra percentage based on sales.
>> > There's
>> > a term for that but the name escapes me.

>>
>> Commission?

>
> Or maybe profit sharing?


It could be that too but in my case it was commission.


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Clueless AOL newbie Sheldon "Pussy" Katz blathered:

> Leaving cash on a restaurant table and walking away is as foolish as
> foolish gets


You like to teach those fools a lesson by stealing that money, don't you?

Bob



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On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 15:42:43 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
> wrote:

>Sitara wrote:
>
>> I was Republican many many years ago till I saw where things were heading.

>
>What if there were millions like you? You could have voted in candidates and
>policies which have your approval, and the GOP would be the party which
>became great under Eisenhower, rather than the


( racist homophobic
misogynistic warped-Christian plutocracy )it's become.

>Bob

there ought to be an acronym in there somewhere ;o)
Janet US
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On 2/2/2013 2:30 PM, sf wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:18:15 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> On 02/02/2013 11:48 AM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If the waitress waited on 10 tables of 2 people in the same amount of
>>> time, she would realize a nice amount of tip. Because she is tied up
>>> with 20 people at one table (takes a lot more time than one table) she
>>> is vulnerable to getting stiffed for her work.
>>> Janet US
>>>

>>
>>
>> BUT.... if service was included in the price on the menu the servers
>> would not have to rely on the generosity of the customers.

>
> Yet we have people in this very thread vociferously who don't like a
> gratuity included on the bill. There you go.
>


I thought nb was saying this 18% was not a tip, but a service charge,
and that an additional 18% was also added. Did I read it wrong?

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On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 15:17:01 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:



>
>Then there is the idea that you tip on the total bill, which includes
>tax. No. You don't pay a percentage on the tax. That is not your food
>bill, and the 15% rule was around before there were taxes applied, or
>when taxes were lower. Around here, the harmonized tax is 14%, so the
>tip should be a little more than that tax figure. Look at the bill, see
>the food and drink portion and pay tax on that. To make things easier,
>look at the tax. The amount of tax plus some extra is a 15% tip.
>
>


Around here, it is roughly double the tax. But then again, if you
have even mildly proficient at math, taking 10% is easy and add half
of that again, then round up.
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On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 15:42:37 -0800, "Julie Bove"
> wrote:

>
> "sf" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 01:29:21 -0800, "Julie Bove"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> Also some
> >> (but not all) retail people get an extra percentage based on sales.
> >> There's
> >> a term for that but the name escapes me.

> >
> > Commission?

>
> That's it! Thanks.
>

YW.

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On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 20:45:46 -0500, Cheryl >
wrote:

> On 2/2/2013 2:30 PM, sf wrote:
> > On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:18:15 -0500, Dave Smith
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> On 02/02/2013 11:48 AM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> If the waitress waited on 10 tables of 2 people in the same amount of
> >>> time, she would realize a nice amount of tip. Because she is tied up
> >>> with 20 people at one table (takes a lot more time than one table) she
> >>> is vulnerable to getting stiffed for her work.
> >>> Janet US
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> BUT.... if service was included in the price on the menu the servers
> >> would not have to rely on the generosity of the customers.

> >
> > Yet we have people in this very thread vociferously who don't like a
> > gratuity included on the bill. There you go.
> >

>
> I thought nb was saying this 18% was not a tip, but a service charge,
> and that an additional 18% was also added. Did I read it wrong?


Who knows what he's saying? He doesn't make any sense. Every
notification I've seen is about a gratuity. This isn't Europe. Some
places there charge you extra just for a table setting. That's a
service charge. People over there drink coffee standing at a "bar" -
because they will be charged more just to sit down. Not a joke.

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On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 17:34:06 -0500, Jim Elbrecht >
wrote:

> On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 11:07:56 -0800, sf > wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 13:39:42 -0500, Jim Elbrecht >
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Earlier this week I learned that Geraldo
> >> Rivera was republican, too. [and thinking about a senate run]

> >
> >You couldn't figure out he was a Republican with him being on contract
> >with Fox and being paid to spout their line of BS?

>
> I always thought they just picked the most obnoxious, over the top,
> bleeding heart, idiot to be their 'token liberal'. He reinforces
> every stereotype Fox sells about liberals.
>
> It is so sad that the guy who is most responsible for turning the
> mental health profession on its ear in the 70's- has just turned into
> such a buffoon.
>

Money talks!

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"Bob Terwilliger" > wrote in message
eb.com...
> Clueless AOL newbie Sheldon "Pussy" Katz blathered:
>
>> Leaving cash on a restaurant table and walking away is as foolish as
>> foolish gets

>
> You like to teach those fools a lesson by stealing that money, don't you?


Hahaha! I have left it there but only in certain circumstances. Such as a
next to empty or empty restaurant when I know the server is coming right
back.


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On 2/3/2013 3:20 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
> If I'm ordering the pasta
> putanesca at $12.95 I'm not going to order a $30 bottle of vino, a
> liter of house dago red at $7.95 is more than adequate. Folks need to
> keep things in perspective. Most restaurants present a separate bar
> tab, if not I can do the math and tip the server for the food only.


If the server is the person going to and from the bar to bring you your
drinks (along with your food, water, bread, etc.), why shouldn't he/she
be tipped for doing so?

Jill
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On 2/3/2013 10:31 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 03/02/2013 9:21 AM, jmcquown wrote:
>
>> You sound like my father! He cautioned never put tips on "plastic"
>> (credit card). He figured what the government doesn't know won't hurt
>> them. The problem with this is tips are taxed based on total sales.
>> Cash or plastic, it doesn't matter. Uncle Sam is gonna get his even if
>> the server didn't earn that much in tips.

>
> Yep. The tax people do expect you to get a certain percentage. Higher
> tips on a charge card will be proof of the extra income. On the other
> hand, smaller amounts on credit card receipts will counter the
> assumption of larger tips.
>
>

The government does make assumptions. The server is taxed for tips (I
forget the percentage, 10%?) based on total sales. The difference is if
the tip is put on a credit card it's "proof" they got that tip. If they
get no tip at all the (US) government still assumes they did and they
are taxed accordingly.

Jill
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On 04/02/2013 9:15 AM, jmcquown wrote:

> The government does make assumptions. The server is taxed for tips (I
> forget the percentage, 10%?) based on total sales. The difference is if
> the tip is put on a credit card it's "proof" they got that tip. If they
> get no tip at all the (US) government still assumes they did and they
> are taxed accordingly.
>

OTOH if the tip is low, it can be proof that you are not being tipped as
much as they assume.




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On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 08:46:16 -0500, jmcquown >
wrote:

>On 2/3/2013 3:20 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
>> If I'm ordering the pasta
>> putanesca at $12.95 I'm not going to order a $30 bottle of vino, a
>> liter of house dago red at $7.95 is more than adequate. Folks need to
>> keep things in perspective. Most restaurants present a separate bar
>> tab, if not I can do the math and tip the server for the food only.

>
>If the server is the person going to and from the bar to bring you your
>drinks (along with your food, water, bread, etc.), why shouldn't he/she
>be tipped for doing so?


Because no food server can do that efficiently. If it's the kind of
dive where the food server is carrying bar drinks I wouldn't be a
patron there... I already wrote that I don't want food servers
fetching my bar drinks, when they find the time and remember to hustle
over to the bar, and by then my drink has diluted/warmed if they even
remembered to place the order and correctly, if it even comes at all
that day... no barmaid, no me. And I don't include the price of
liquor/wine with my food bill for calculating the tip... I tip for
spirits separately, by the drink, not by the drink price. For bottled
wine I tip the same for a $15 bottle as for a $60 bottle ($3-$4) no
more than $1 per glass. I expect a barmaid to take my drink order, I
don't want a food server attempting to hustle me for drinks, I don't
want the food server taking my drink order same as I don't want a
barmaid taking my food order. If a restaurant has a bar they had
better have a barmaid or I won't be a patron. A barmaid can make good
money, they can easily serve 40 drinks an hour (most go to the same
tables at once), at a buck tip per you figure it out.

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On Mon, 4 Feb 2013 12:50:01 -0600, Sqwertz >
wrote:

>On 2 Feb 2013 13:00:23 GMT, notbob wrote:
>
>> BTW, how in God's name (it was church folk) did 20 ppl manage to run
>> up a bill of only $34 at an Applebees? Did they all order jes one
>> Coke? If I'd been the mgr, Ida told the entire lot to "fly away"
>> ....NOW!

>
>Apparently everybody who refers to the article has reading
>comprehension problems.
>
>The table was split up into several checks to avoid any one group of
>people getting the auto-tip charge. But the waitress added it anyway
>as they were clearly a party of 5 or more.
>
>-sw

I'll let your statement pass . . .
Janet US
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jmcquown wrote:
>


> The government does make assumptions. The server is taxed for tips (I
> forget the percentage, 10%?) based on total sales. The difference is if
> the tip is put on a credit card it's "proof" they got that tip. If they
> get no tip at all the (US) government still assumes they did and they
> are taxed accordingly.


Not even credit cards. Restaurants keep track of the tickets from each
waitress and yes the government taxes them on tips whether or not they get
them. It's either 8% or 10%. I forget but thats true. My daughter did that
for several years so I did learn some of the "behind the scene" info about
that job.

Gary
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On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:51:58 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 02/02/2013 5:13 PM, Susan wrote:
>
>>> Minimum wage in Australia is almost $16 for an adult, so to me it
>>> doesn't make much sense here to generally tip in a restaurant. Given
>>> their reasonable minimum wage, why should they have some special
>>> privilege over other minimum wage workers in other lines of
>>> employment?

>>
>> Servers here are paid way below the standard prevailing minimum wage.
>> There's no analogy here.

>
>Yes. That is my problem. Tipping is an anachronism in this day and age.
>The servers should get a decent wage for their work ad should not have
>to count on the generosity of their customers.


I agree, it's not a good arrangement IMO.
It'll probably never happen, but there needs to be a uniform, national
minimum wage (a realistic one!) in the U.S.

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On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:23:13 -0800, sf > wrote:

>On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 09:02:02 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:
>
>>
>> Minimum wage in Australia is almost $16 for an adult, so to me it
>> doesn't make much sense here to generally tip in a restaurant. Given
>> their reasonable minimum wage, why should they have some special
>> privilege over other minimum wage workers in other lines of
>> employment?

>
>Here, unless a higher wage is mandated by the locality, servers are
>often paid considerably less than minimum wage.
>http://www.kutv.com/news/features/ge...s/vid_71.shtml
>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1515916.html
><http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/19/1064413/-Restaurant-industry-screws-women-while-2-13-tipped-worker-minimum-wage-makes-it-worse>
>http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm



Terrible.


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On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 16:42:52 -0500, Gary > wrote:

>jmcquown wrote:
>>

>
>> The government does make assumptions. The server is taxed for tips (I
>> forget the percentage, 10%?) based on total sales. The difference is if
>> the tip is put on a credit card it's "proof" they got that tip. If they
>> get no tip at all the (US) government still assumes they did and they
>> are taxed accordingly.

>
>Not even credit cards. Restaurants keep track of the tickets from each
>waitress and yes the government taxes them on tips whether or not they get
>them. It's either 8% or 10%. I forget but thats true. My daughter did that
>for several years so I did learn some of the "behind the scene" info about
>that job.


Reading this, I feel like I'm observing aliens on another planet...
what a crazy approach to employment and taxation!
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On 04/02/2013 4:44 PM, Jeßus wrote:

>> Yes. That is my problem. Tipping is an anachronism in this day and age.
>> The servers should get a decent wage for their work ad should not have
>> to count on the generosity of their customers.

>
> I agree, it's not a good arrangement IMO.
> It'll probably never happen, but there needs to be a uniform, national
> minimum wage (a realistic one!) in the U.S.
>




I don't see that happening in the US. There is too strong a lobby from
industry to keep wages down and restaurants will whine that it will
drive them out of business because they will have to raise their prices
and that will scare away customers. I don't buy that because most people
are now paying 15% or more in tips and servers make pretty good money on
the tips. Even if restaurants did increase their prices by 15% then
people are going to be paying the same amount that they would if they
paid the old price plus 15% gratuity.

The other argument is the motivation. They think that people will work
harder if the are hoping to get good tips, and they will try to up sell,
pushing appetizers, desserts etc. They especially like to push the
drinks because they are expensive and easy to get. Unlike appetizers and
desserts, where people have only one, many diners have multiple drinks.
It is not even entirely legal to sell people as many drinks as they
would like to.

Look at the US government record on increasing the federal minimum wage.
The Senate blocked increases for years and years. Yet, while denying an
increase to the federal minimum wage, leaving it at a pitifully low
level, the gave themselves a number of raises totalling more than
$30,000 per year. As if they were not already well paid, the raises
alone were about three times the annual wage of someone living on the
minimum that they had refused to raise.



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On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:44:24 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:

>On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:51:58 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:
>
>>On 02/02/2013 5:13 PM, Susan wrote:
>>
>>>> Minimum wage in Australia is almost $16 for an adult, so to me it
>>>> doesn't make much sense here to generally tip in a restaurant. Given
>>>> their reasonable minimum wage, why should they have some special
>>>> privilege over other minimum wage workers in other lines of
>>>> employment?
>>>
>>> Servers here are paid way below the standard prevailing minimum wage.
>>> There's no analogy here.

>>
>>Yes. That is my problem. Tipping is an anachronism in this day and age.
>>The servers should get a decent wage for their work ad should not have
>>to count on the generosity of their customers.

>
>I agree, it's not a good arrangement IMO.
>It'll probably never happen, but there needs to be a uniform, national
>minimum wage (a realistic one!) in the U.S.


Why? Different parts of the US are at different economic levels, many
vastly different. The easiest and most realistic remedy is for people
to relocate to an area of an economic level of their choice, providing
they possess the necessary marketable skills. Many a waitress that
wants to earn more will move from the Dakotas to Las Vegas.


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On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 17:03:05 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 04/02/2013 4:44 PM, Jeßus wrote:
>
>>> Yes. That is my problem. Tipping is an anachronism in this day and age.
>>> The servers should get a decent wage for their work ad should not have
>>> to count on the generosity of their customers.

>>
>> I agree, it's not a good arrangement IMO.
>> It'll probably never happen, but there needs to be a uniform, national
>> minimum wage (a realistic one!) in the U.S.
>>

>I don't see that happening in the US.


Nor do I, unfortunately.

>There is too strong a lobby from
>industry


From what I can see, lobbyists are a cancer on your political system,
they're completely out of control.

>to keep wages down and restaurants will whine that it will
>drive them out of business because they will have to raise their prices
>and that will scare away customers. I don't buy that because most people
>are now paying 15% or more in tips and servers make pretty good money on
>the tips. Even if restaurants did increase their prices by 15% then
>people are going to be paying the same amount that they would if they
>paid the old price plus 15% gratuity.


That's what I would think would happen as well.

>The other argument is the motivation. They think that people will work
>harder if the are hoping to get good tips, and they will try to up sell,
>pushing appetizers, desserts etc. They especially like to push the
>drinks because they are expensive and easy to get. Unlike appetizers and
>desserts, where people have only one, many diners have multiple drinks.
> It is not even entirely legal to sell people as many drinks as they
>would like to.


I'm somewhat dubious about the 'motivation' argument myself...
Getting the sack for bad attitude/poor performance doesn't work in
this industry in the U.S?

>Look at the US government record on increasing the federal minimum wage.
>The Senate blocked increases for years and years. Yet, while denying an
>increase to the federal minimum wage, leaving it at a pitifully low
>level, the gave themselves a number of raises totalling more than
>$30,000 per year. As if they were not already well paid, the raises
>alone were about three times the annual wage of someone living on the
>minimum that they had refused to raise.


How nice for them...
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:45:35 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:23:13 -0800, sf > wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 09:02:02 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Minimum wage in Australia is almost $16 for an adult, so to me it
> >> doesn't make much sense here to generally tip in a restaurant. Given
> >> their reasonable minimum wage, why should they have some special
> >> privilege over other minimum wage workers in other lines of
> >> employment?

> >
> >Here, unless a higher wage is mandated by the locality, servers are
> >often paid considerably less than minimum wage.
> >http://www.kutv.com/news/features/ge...s/vid_71.shtml
> >http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1515916.html
> ><http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/19/1064413/-Restaurant-industry-screws-women-while-2-13-tipped-worker-minimum-wage-makes-it-worse>
> >http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm

>
>
> Terrible.


I think so too.

--
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On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 17:08:09 -0500, Brooklyn1
> wrote:

>On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:44:24 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:51:58 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:
>>
>>>On 02/02/2013 5:13 PM, Susan wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Minimum wage in Australia is almost $16 for an adult, so to me it
>>>>> doesn't make much sense here to generally tip in a restaurant. Given
>>>>> their reasonable minimum wage, why should they have some special
>>>>> privilege over other minimum wage workers in other lines of
>>>>> employment?
>>>>
>>>> Servers here are paid way below the standard prevailing minimum wage.
>>>> There's no analogy here.
>>>
>>>Yes. That is my problem. Tipping is an anachronism in this day and age.
>>>The servers should get a decent wage for their work ad should not have
>>>to count on the generosity of their customers.

>>
>>I agree, it's not a good arrangement IMO.
>>It'll probably never happen, but there needs to be a uniform, national
>>minimum wage (a realistic one!) in the U.S.

>
>Why? Different parts of the US are at different economic levels, many
>vastly different. The easiest and most realistic remedy is for people
>to relocate to an area of an economic level of their choice, providing
>they possess the necessary marketable skills. Many a waitress that
>wants to earn more will move from the Dakotas to Las Vegas.


Perhaps you have greater extremes in the economies of various regions
over there? But it's essentially the same here in Aus with large
variations in economic prosperity, in fact where I live has the
highest unemployment/worst economy in the country. Yet nobody in their
right mind here would make the same argument you have for the U.S, it
just doesnt work that way here. You're right about relocating though,
more people should move to where the work is (if they need to find
work).
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 09:26:46 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:

> You're right about relocating though,
> more people should move to where the work is (if they need to find
> work).


How are they supposed afford the cost of moving to a new local and
renting an apartment in the high cost area with no savings due to
chronic under-employment or unemployment?

--
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On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:46:35 -0800, sf > wrote:

>On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 09:26:46 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:
>
>> You're right about relocating though,
>> more people should move to where the work is (if they need to find
>> work).

>
>How are they supposed afford the cost of moving to a new local and
>renting an apartment in the high cost area with no savings due to
>chronic under-employment or unemployment?


It must be really, really bad over there
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On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 17:03:05 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 04/02/2013 4:44 PM, Jeßus wrote:
>
>>> Yes. That is my problem. Tipping is an anachronism in this day and age.
>>> The servers should get a decent wage for their work ad should not have
>>> to count on the generosity of their customers.

>>
>> I agree, it's not a good arrangement IMO.
>> It'll probably never happen, but there needs to be a uniform, national
>> minimum wage (a realistic one!) in the U.S.
>>

>
>
>
>I don't see that happening in the US. There is too strong a lobby from
>industry to keep wages down and restaurants will whine that it will
>drive them out of business because they will have to raise their prices
>and that will scare away customers. I don't buy that because most people
>are now paying 15% or more in tips and servers make pretty good money on
>the tips. Even if restaurants did increase their prices by 15% then
>people are going to be paying the same amount that they would if they
>paid the old price plus 15% gratuity.
>
>The other argument is the motivation. They think that people will work
>harder if the are hoping to get good tips, and they will try to up sell,
>pushing appetizers, desserts etc. They especially like to push the
>drinks because they are expensive and easy to get. Unlike appetizers and
>desserts, where people have only one, many diners have multiple drinks.
> It is not even entirely legal to sell people as many drinks as they
>would like to.
>
>Look at the US government record on increasing the federal minimum wage.
>The Senate blocked increases for years and years. Yet, while denying an
>increase to the federal minimum wage, leaving it at a pitifully low
>level, the gave themselves a number of raises totalling more than
>$30,000 per year. As if they were not already well paid, the raises
>alone were about three times the annual wage of someone living on the
>minimum that they had refused to raise.


In the service industry professions (where no product is provided)
tipping is the most efficient method of ensuring the highest level of
service and also the best product for the price. Likely what you
consider an adequate level of service I'd think is no service at
all... I've been to countries that don't tip, by my standards service
is (surly) less than no service, and what they consider edible is darn
close to TIAD. And I don't want to hear about how Canadians don't
tip, everywhere I've been in Canada people certainly do tip.
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On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 09:15:18 -0500, jmcquown >
wrote:

>>

>The government does make assumptions. The server is taxed for tips (I
>forget the percentage, 10%?) based on total sales. The difference is if
>the tip is put on a credit card it's "proof" they got that tip. If they
>get no tip at all the (US) government still assumes they did and they
>are taxed accordingly.
>
>Jill


I wouldn't do business with a place that had mandatory tips. If it's
mandatory, them the menu price should just be raised to include the tip
and the worker given that percentage, or get a better salary. There are
some workers that simply do not deserve a tip. There is a local
bartender in her early 20s who spends her entire time bartending staring
at her cellphone, and customers have to literally hollar to get her
attention. I think she is what they refer to as a cellphone addict.
She dont even look at people when she talks to them, she just stares at
that phone. (I often wonder what is so important on that thing). I
thought the so called "cellphone addiction" was just another myth, until
I saw this woman. She dont even show emotions, it's like she is lost
inside that little box......

I dont tip her. she dont deserve it. And I'm pretty patient in bars and
restaurants, moreso in bars. But when someone walks into a bar, you'd
think the bartender would at least acknowledge the fact the person
walked in. Not her! I've seen some of the heavy drinkers throw ice
cubes at her to get her attention, and sometimes they have to toss quite
a few before she notices. I know for fact that there have been
complaints given to the bar owner about her, but I guess she is cheap
help, so the keep her.

I've often thought what would happen if a fight broke out or another
problem, would she even notice? It's not the type of bar where there is
much trouble, but it can happen anywhere that people drink alcohol.

She was already cited for serving a minor once, because she's too busy
looking at that phone to check IDs.

My point is that there are some people who dont deserve a tip, and if
they make it mandatory, I wont do business with the place. Tips were
meant to show gratitude for good service, and if I was treated well, I
am happy to tip them.



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Just came across this:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...unt=1&r ef=nf
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 09:50:59 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:

> On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:46:35 -0800, sf > wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 09:26:46 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:
> >
> >> You're right about relocating though,
> >> more people should move to where the work is (if they need to find
> >> work).

> >
> >How are they supposed afford the cost of moving to a new local and
> >renting an apartment in the high cost area with no savings due to
> >chronic under-employment or unemployment?

>
> It must be really, really bad over there


That's the reality. Those who have the ability to move to an area
where their skills are in demand, do it. With new construction being
in the dumps for so long, construction workers have been pretty much
SOL. I'm seeing a lot of new commercial construction lately, but the
housing industry hasn't rebounded yet.


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On 2/3/2013 12:14 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> I've been to a few places in Italy where they charge about 2 Euro for
> wine. They put a pitcher on the table and you drink as much or as
> little as you like. Decent stuff too.


Sounds like Macaroni Grill. They put a gallon sized bottle of Chianti,
or some other house branded bottle, on the table and you keep track of
how many glasses you consume and they charge you that amount -- the
honor system. For anyone who hasn't been to one, the tablecloth is
paper and they give you crayons to mark up the table and for hash marks
for your glasses of wine. I've never been disappointed by their food but
they are a chain, so many here probably wouldn't like it.

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On 2/2/2013 2:22 PM, Kalmia wrote:

> Read the article again. They insisted on separate checks, so the 34
> bucks was prob. for 2-3 people.
>
> I understand mandatory gratuity - it's to counteract the big
> cheapskate groups which are wont to haunt restos. I've been in those
> groups- some straggle in latee so they miss the appetizer part, some
> toss a 20 on the table and duck out early, The last guys left are
> the ones who get stuck making up the difference. Some shitheads
> don't even cover their FOOD, let alone throw in something toward a
> tip.
>
> This is why, if I go out with a group, I go armed with plenty of
> fives and ones so I can cover my portion and not get stuck, even if
> it means a special trip to the bank to get those small bills. Beats
> getting stuck and stewin about it for years, and having to smile and
> act like nothing happened, next time you bump into these tightwads.
> It's usually a couple who you thought were in the bucks - ha. Burns
> my rear.
>

When I go with a group we always insist on separate checks and I use a
credit card so I don't have to deal with cash. The only time we'll split
a bill among the entire group is if we're treating someone for a
birthday or a farewell lunch for someone leaving the company. For
personal dinner with friends and/or family, I don't stress it. It isn't
a common event anyway, so it isn't going to break me to pay a little
extra if someone had a larger meal than I did. This thread has been
interesting. We always make sure the server is tipped well.

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On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 15:38:05 -0800, sf > wrote:

>On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 09:50:59 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:46:35 -0800, sf > wrote:
>>
>> >On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 09:26:46 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:
>> >
>> >> You're right about relocating though,
>> >> more people should move to where the work is (if they need to find
>> >> work).
>> >
>> >How are they supposed afford the cost of moving to a new local and
>> >renting an apartment in the high cost area with no savings due to
>> >chronic under-employment or unemployment?

>>
>> It must be really, really bad over there

>
>That's the reality. Those who have the ability to move to an area
>where their skills are in demand, do it. With new construction being
>in the dumps for so long, construction workers have been pretty much
>SOL. I'm seeing a lot of new commercial construction lately, but the
>housing industry hasn't rebounded yet.


According to the news I read, it is rebounding, so is construction. In
my state, days on market are pretty much back to "normal." That is
to say, it is not a seller's market, it is equal between buyers and
sellers. Perhaps not in your neighborhood.
Janet US
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